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#jedi civil war
dopaminevampire · 7 months
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Kotor theory because I am deep diving lore.
Spoilers, kinda.
So regardless of whether we acknowledge the idea of the Sith Empire and brainwashing, I was surprised to learn that Korriban was already occupied when Revan and Malak showed up. It seems to be implied Czerka already set up shop there, but more interestingly, Jorak Uln, the crazy old coot that holes up in one of the tombs, is a remnant from Exar Kun's war 40 years previously. As is Sion, from the second kotor game.
That would be the war that Jolee fought in against them.
Looking at the history further, it seems that Sith war ended and a few scattered Sith made a run for it in various parts of space. Some of them ended up on Korriban and restarted the academy there. Its been running the *entire time* and none of the Jedi did anything about it.
The current headmaster of the academy as in the time of gameplay is Jorak's pupil, so guess is good he's been there a long while as well.
And that led me to thinking- when exactly did Yuthura show up in all of this?
Now my immediate reaction to this was "this is ridiculous, this is dumb, this has to be an oversight, there's no way these Sith have been here for 40 years and roll over and show belly and fall in line the moment the new punk kids show up on the block" but then THAT got me thinking about something else that doesn't entirely make sense either-
One of the first battles Revan and Malak engaged in was attacking Foerost. This battle is an almost exact copy of another battle that was initiated by Qel-Droma... 40 years earlier... in the last Sith war... with Exar Kun. Spoils of this battle ended with Revan and Malak taking most of the Republic fleet from drydocks and also heralding themselves in as the new Sith Lords.
Which brings us back to Korriban. What better way to make a bang and convince these Sith holdouts to fall in line than copying a battle from their own past war? Maybe even doing it better? Proving their mettle?
If we add in that perhaps this was preventing Revan from accessing the Star Map, capturing the Republic fleet makes a whole lot of sense too. Or even if not, asset denial.
Bonus- I also learned there is a bar on Korriban named "The Drunk Side"
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bh-52 · 2 years
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The Ebon Hawk crews are amazing.
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furious-blueberry0 · 3 months
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Hey, am I the only one who does not like the idea of Luke's new Jedi order allowing romantic relationships, marriage and having kids?
Like, George Lucas even said that the reason he did not give Luke a love interest in the end was because Jedi do not marry? And he even gave us a clear example of what happens with that in the Prequels?
I just don't understand this whole "Luke's Order was better because people could finally love" or "That's why the old Order fell"
Yeah sure buddy, they ceartenly did not fell because they had a freaking Sith Lord as head of the Republic who orchestrated one of the greatest evil plans the galaxy had ever seen, no no no, they fell because they didn't let Jedi to marry. sure.
The Order had the rule of non attachments for 25,000 years, and it's a rule that makes sense, we even saw what happens when Jedi form attachments and are unable to let go.
So I don't understand how a new Order without this rule would be better than one that survived for that long with it.
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Okay! So I have seem some people, understandably, critiquing the training exercise that Anakin assigns Ahsoka in Tales of the Jedi.
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This? It's dangerous. It's irresponsible. It's a sure way to give someone a concussion. Over. And over. And over. It's exactly the kind of harebrained and reckless idea Anakin would have.
But the test was not designed to help her eventually survive O66. It was designed because Anakin didn't like the standard exercises every Jedi has to do. He thought the test wasn't tough enough, so designed a similar test that was "tougher."
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And this standard test was likely designed for a couple reasons. The first and likely primary reason is that the simulation helps test a Jedi on their foot control and precision of saber movements. You can see that she doesn't have much area to jump or maneuver around. A secondary lesson might be that the practice could help prepare a Padawan in the event they're in the field and surrounded. The bots are designed to simulate battle droids, after all.
The exercise literally isn't designed with stamina and resourcefulness in mind.
Fortunately, TCW did illustrate, time and time again, that Ahsoka is resourceful in her fights. The Citadel Arc. The arc when she is kidnapped by Trandoshans. The arc in season 5 when pirates attack her and the younglings. And also the "Wrong Jedi" arc when Ahsoka must outrun and escape an entire Gar battalion. So, it was well established that she is able to hold her own and it was established that she had the ability to create the circumstances for her own survival in instances where the field was open and manipulatable and she had assistance. She had already learned how to create her own opportunity or means to escape a sticky situation and how to think in a way where once she had the means or opening to escape, she is able to do so effectively and smartly.
But did she have the stamina and blade skills to create said opening so she then had an opportunity to escape? Especially when surrounded or cornered and alone?
The point of O66 was to literally surround and corner the Jedi. As seen by these dialogue prompts in Jedi: Fallen Order.
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Jedi who found themselves with the opportunity to escape (like Kanan, Cal, and Ahsoka, Obi Wan, and Yoda, to name a few) would escape. And at that point, many of them were as good as gone.
And it has been illustrated over and over that when Jedi are cornered and surrounded:
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like with Minas Velti,
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Ima-Gun Di,
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Aayla Secura,
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Depa Billaba,
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and Jaro Tepal...
... that they can get far and that they have great saber movement and foot control and that they can use their skill to make time for others to get away or survive, but it also always marks the end. It's an impossible situation to get out of. And as much endurance and skill as they might have in many areas, this was never a situation they'd be prepared for or that they were trained to survive. And that was literally the point.
I'm going to hazard a guess that most Jedi did not have "practice" escaping being tracked and hunted (like in the "Wookie Hunt" arc), out running and out witting an entire GAR battalion (like in the "Wrong Jedi" arc), escaping high-security situations while surrounded by high levels of personnel (like in the Citadel arc), or to develop the physical endurance and agility to last long enough to create an out while literally surrounded or cornered (like with the reckless training exercise Anakin puts her through).
Anakin made the test about having no way out and being overwhelmed. He made a test likely about footwork into one about developing the endurance and skill to hold off until you can create the circumstances of your escape while being surrounded or cornered and alone.
Ahsoka said it herself that every Jedi had to take the standard test. And there are a lot of flaws with that it. It isn't designed with the idea of creating the means to escape being surrounded, but to just hold off and hold off until the end of the simulation. I have no doubt that primary purpose would be to practice foot work with blade movements. But in terms of the secondary lesson, it mostly trains them for a speedy defeat against battle droids while having no way out. But the fact that every Jedi has to take it goes to show that they were not really taught to get out of being surrounded outside a quick simulation. Because why would they need to be? Not like they knew O66 was coming.
I get that the reason Dave Felony wrote and produced this episode was just to parallel O66, but I do think that in terms of the test's secondary lesson (developing the skill and endurance and having the practice in the event you're surrounded with no immediate out), Anakin's was far more reckless yet likely more effective.
Because this:
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...was always going to be a near impossible situation to escape from. Without the endurance, foot work, or blade skill to hold off until there was a means and opportunity to escape, Ahsoka would not have survived.
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radiosummons · 1 year
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Maybe I'm the dumb one or whatever, but ... I like Anakin because he's the worst.
I know some of y'all really love him for reasons and for some of you those reasons mostly just involve doing a bunch of insane mental gymnastics to somehow "justify" his heinous af choices (i.e. trying to blame the Jedi for literally every dumb little thing he did, but whatever).
But, guys ... come the fuck on. The reason Anakin's such a great character (please note I said *character,* not a *person*) is because he's a selfish piece of shit that ruined the lives of everyone he loved and then made the entire galaxy suffer for his mistakes.
My guy, that is tragedy and hubris at its fucking finest. That is some A-grade quality shit right there.
I'm really starting to doubt if some of y'all have ever read/experienced a piece of media where the main character isn't a paragon of all things good and moral. You don't have to flip over backwards to justify liking a villain.
Personally, I never want Anakin to change. I want him to keep making shit choices, I want him to keep hurting people and being a selfish butthurt dictator prick. I like that he's a piece of shit that abused the trust that his loved ones put in him because it fucking hurts to see him become the monster he is.
It hurts to see a character you care so much about actively making the choice to turn themselves into their absolute worst. It's downright heartbreaking to see them hurt their loved ones and it's all the more tragic when their love transforms into selfish obsession and possession.
Yes, Palpatine did manipulate Anakin. BUT-Anakin still made the choice to kill Mace, to burn down the Jedi Temple, to rob the 501st of their autonomy (something a former slave should never have been okay with btw), forced his men to participate in killing fucking children, killed his own wife and endangered the lives of his own unborn children, attacked and attempted to kill his brother/father figure, and then continued to subjugate and destroy the lives of millions, if not outright billions for nearly two whole decades.
(He also tortured his son and daughter, their friends, their allies, etc. And like ... maimed his own son 'cause like why the fuck not? Fuck, I haven't even gone into detail about the absolute horror he put Obi-wan and Ahsoka through. Fuck me).
Anakin is the worst. And he's an amazing character. Both of these facts can exist at the same time.
Tldr: y'all are really out here acting like Anakin wasn't a big boy who didn't make big boy choices. Let him be a prick.
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ospreyeamon · 7 months
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the falls of the revanchist jedi
The narrative doesn’t directly examine why the Jedi who followed Revan and Malak fell. It is spoken of as a given – they followed Revan into war, so they followed Revan into darkness. That’s not how people work though. That’s not even how people under the influence of the Dark Side of the Force work. Spending twenty years as Palpatine’s thrall didn’t prevent Vader from throwing his Master into the reactor shaft to save his son. Revan can murder every NPC available to be murdered until reaching Rakata Prime only to pull a 180, redeem Bastila, and be feted as a hero of the Republic, Sith-eyes and all.
All but one of the surviving Revanchist Jedi who followed Revan and Malak into the Mandalorian Wars followed them again into the Jedi Civil War. Even the Exile, that lone dissenting actor, can say that they would have fought with their fellows against the Republic had their connection to the Force not been severed; that they were unable, not unwilling. Yet, the Exile can also say that they would not have followed Revan and Malak in attacking the Republic, that they went to war to defend the innocent. Many of the other Jedi who joined the war effort alongside them must have felt the same way, in the beginning.
Many of the soldiers of the Republic like Carth Onasi returned home after the Mandalorian Wars were over, even those like Saul Karath who would bow to Revan again. What then are the factors that led every surviving Revanchist Jedi, save the Exile, to follow Revan from the Mandalorian Wars into the Jedi Civil War?
1) The Mandalorian Wars changed the Jedi who fought in them. The Exile’s dialogue provides the different reasons why they might have left to fight in the war – to protect the innocent, to test their power, to defend the Republic, to win glory – reflecting varying motivations of Knights and Padawans recruited by Revan and Malak. However, despite the differences in the initial reasons for defying the Jedi Council to answer the Republic’s call, they all would have gone through similar uniting experiences during the war. Terrible experiences. Shared hardship often serves to reinforce group identity.
Older Jedi like Kavar and Arren Kae had fought wars before, but the initial expedition led by Revan and Malak was almost entirely composed of young Knights and older Padawans. Military morality, ethics in warfare, tends to be rather twisted from the perspective of modern western civilian morality. Your ability to prosecute the war and the safety of your soldiers takes priority over the lives of enemy, and sometimes even allied, civilians. Ruthless is more than a virtue, it’s a necessity. Collateral damage is an inevitability. For young relatively inexperienced Jedi, raised on ideals of valuing all life and always seeking non-violent resolutions, the transition to military command positions where they were not only required to kill, not only required to led troops to their death, but required to give orders which they knew would directly result in the deaths of civilians would have been distressing.
We know that the Exile once led troops directly into a minefield during the Battle of Dxun, but I think that barely scratched the surface. We aren’t given the full laundry list of the Mandalorians’ war crimes, but at the very least it includes the crime of aggression, murder of civilians, use of child soldiers, and conscription of captured civilians into the Neo-Crusaders and for forced labour. Given this disregard for the lives of civilians, I consider it likely that the Mandalorians also used hostages and headquartered themselves inside buildings like schools and hospitals. I suspect both sides used poison weapons, nuclear weapons, torture, and executed prisoners of war.
2) The Battle of Malachor V was a purge and a crucible of conversion. Kreia, HK-47, and the recording of Bastila Shan all say it; “a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion”, “the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan … Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V”, “to convert the last of the Jedi who fought beside [Revan] – and murder those who would not”. The Jedi in the radius of the Mass Shadow Generator would have included the Jedi Revan did not believe would agree with the plan to invade the Republic.
I think many of the Revanchist Jedi had already been falling by inches before Malachor. The Mandalorian Wars were brutal and one of the major symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is emotional dysregulation. Irritability, anxiety, depression, guilt, anger – the ongoing effects of trauma make a person more susceptible to inadvertently drawing on the Dark-Side of the Force. Using the Dark-Side of the Force was forbidden by the Code enforced by the Jedi Council, but the Revanchists had been pressured to compromise their ethics in other ways to effectively prosecute the war.
For any Jedi who had not already fallen, the detonation of the Mass Shadow Generator was a final blow they could not withstand. They all fell – into the Dark-Side, into death, away from the Force.
This was the conversion that Revan desired. The moral conversation – the acceptance of actions that violated their previous moral code, the previous moral code that would not have permitted making war on the Republic. The conversion in the Force – pushing Jedi to the Dark-Side ensured that they would not be accepted back into the Order by the Jedi Council even if they desired to return.
3) The Jedi Council’s decision to exile the Jedi who returned to face them was a gift to Revan and Malak. The Council’s judgement might have been rooted in their discomfort with what the Exile had become but the reason they publicly gave is that the Exile disobeyed the Council to follow Revan to war. That reason applied equally to every single other Revanchist. By exiling the one Revanchist to return the Jedi Council exiled them all, whether or not they intended to. They may not have, but by deciding to keep secret the true reasons behind their sentence of exile they ensured the other Revanchists could interpret their judgement no other way.
Telling the Revanchist Jedi they would never be welcome to return to the Jedi Order ensured that they would never go back. Onwards was the only path left to them.
4) Revan was extremely charismatic and competent. The Revanchist Jedi had already decided that Revan and Malak judgement was better than the Jedi Council’s when they chose to defy the Council’s orders to follow them to war. Revan, Malak and the Revanchists then won the war for the Republic. In fact, Revan even discovered the shadowy threat the which had been the Council’s justification for sitting out the war through engaging in it, while the Jedi Council remained ignorant.
The Republic government probably bungled the early stages of the Mandalorian Wars by not intervening sooner. The Mandalorians were committing more than enough war crimes for them to justify it, but they allowed Mandalorians to expand their territory, build their forces and industry, and entrench their advantage. When the Republic did enter the war, it wasn’t because the Republic leadership had made a strategic decision, or even a moral one; it was because some corrupt politicians organised bribes to fast-track Taris into the Republic because it was under threat and they wanted to protect their business holdings there. The Jedi Council was also tangled up in the culture of corruption; Lucien Draay was given a seat on the Council even though he’d been accused of planning and assisting the murder of four Padawans because of his powerful family connections.
The Old Republic was more an aristocratic republic than a democratic one. Alderaan, Onderon, the Empress Teta system – they were all monarchies during this period, not democracies. If aristocrats could hold power through right of blood and plutocrats through wealth, then why shouldn’t Revan lead the Galactic Republic by right of merit and conquest?
Revan was secretive, but at least some of the other Revanchist Sith knew about the shadowy threat – the True Sith Empire. If the Republic was going to need to fight another war against an even greater enemy, surely it would need better leadership. Leadership like Revan.
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2stepadmiral · 1 month
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“Kriffing Fey’lya,”
An explosion twenty meters ahead marks where the AT-ST fire was slightly off, but it still sprays Rex with dirt. He grits his teeth as he tries again to push the chunk of a blasted wall off his chest, but it’s still no good. The permacrete is too heavy for him to budge, at least from this angle.
It was a rookie mistake on his part, getting too close to the wall when the enemy had artillery deployed. Rex must’ve been getting old. That was the only possible explanation for him making such a stupid mistake, the kind of idiotic move that he had dressed down countless shinies for during the Clone Wars. He had gotten too close, and a stray shot from the walker had brought a huge chunk of wall right down on top of him. It wasn’t big enough to crush him, or even seriously injure him, but it was certainly large enough to pin him down under the rubble.
He gritted his teeth once again as he remembered the two fellow Rebels who had noticed him trapped, and tried to help, completely disregarding his orders to abandon him. Didn’t seem to be much good and being a commander if your subordinates ignore orders like that. Rex idly wondered if any of the boys back during the days of the 501st would’ve followed that order, or would’ve been so loyal to their commander, that they stuck around in a vain effort to help and got mowed down, moments later, by a stormtrooper pressing the advance. He truthfully could not remember. 
He could hear the trooper’s footsteps growing closer now. The son of a hut who had shot the two men was slowly making his way over, inspecting his kill and making sure that the job was done. From where he lay, Rex was concealed from the troopers view, but if you got to close, he would be completely exposed. He tighten the grip on the DC 17 clutched in his free hand. If the trooper got too close, Rex would have a mere heartbeat to respond before the trooper filled him with blaster bolts. Even now, at his age, such a response was trivial for Rex. The question was not whether or not, he could beat the trooper to the draw, but whether or not the blue blaster fire would attract the attention of the ATST. If it did, Rex would be out of options. His A280 rifle had an explosive launcher attachment, and with precise aim, he might be able to get a thermal detonator through the viewport, but with one arm pinned, his aim was hardly at peak proficiency. And since the rifle had fallen some two meters away, the whole concept was rather academic.
The footsteps stopped, and Rex could hear the plates pressing together as the trooper tensed. At least it wasn’t a clanker that got me, Rex thought. An Imperial walker wasn’t much better, but the difference was important to him. He closed his eyes for a moment as he braced himself. I’m sorry I couldn’t do better, General. I’m sorry I couldn’t finish this fight for you, and for Commander Tano.
Rex’s eyes fly open as he hears the distinctive snap-hiss. The trooped yells and opens fire. He goes silent as a whoosh fills the air. Rex sees a shadow pass over him and hears a thud as the trooper collides against the building behind him. Rex strains to see over the debris. He barely makes out a green glow against the smog before the entire area is illuminated by a bright flash.
The walker steps close, the ground shaking slightly beneath its footsteps. It’s floodlight makes Rex wince for a moment before it points down at something in the middle of the street. Rex sees the cannon flash, hears the explosive impact, and hears the hum of a lightsaber in motion. A dark cloaked figure leaps forth, green blade flashing, and the walker stumbles a moment before tumbling to the ground, its leg severed. The figure holds up the saber defensively as he scans the area for further threats, lowering and closing down the blade as he decides that all is well. He turns a hand toward Rex, and the rubble begins to shift.
Rex gasps with a sensation that has little to do with the relief of this pressure. He thought he recognized the figure when he saw him leap through the air, severing the walker leg with a form that he knew all too well. Until he saw the man lift his burden with the Force, he didn’t dare to hope. Now, he couldn’t stop himself.
“General?” He calls out desperately. “General Skywalker, is that you?” It’s impossible. He knows General Skywalker was killed at the end of the Clone Wars, but somehow, he knows. He knows that Skywalker has returned. Impossible things have happened before, he knows. Commander Tano survived, and apparently, General Kenobi had actually survived, and been hiding for decades before briefly, returning to die on the death star, So why not Skywalker?
The figure steps forward, reaching up to lower his hood. Rex gasps at the young, scarred face looking back at him. This is not Anakin Skywalker, no, this man is far too young. But his features are decidedly similar. Similar enough to be a relative. A son.
“My name is Commander Luke Skywalker,” he says, extending a hand. “I’m here to help you.”
He had heard the name before, everyone in the alliance had, but he hadn’t made the connection. There were plenty of people named Skywalker in the galaxy, after all.
Rex took the hand at once. Something in him said to trust this man. Perhaps it was the distinct features of general Anakin Skywalker, that were just visible, or perhaps it was the innate kindness and compassion that seemed somehow vaguely familiar as well. Perhaps the boy’s mother? Yes, that was it. His mother. Senator Amidala. There was no one else that really could be, not after all those holo calls the general used to steal away any chance he got.
“I’ll take the help,” Rex said as he rose to his feet. “We were able to insert the Bothans, and our retreat should have covered for their entrance. Unfortunately, we took a lot of Flack on the way out.” Rex lowered his gaze. “Lost some good people, I’m afraid. Hopefully, this will all be worth it.”
“You’ve done a great job, Commander,” Luke said, his tone so very reminiscent of Anakin’s when he had praised Rex for a job well done, but it was also gentler, a bit kinder, as though he could see and feel the emotions that Rex was experiencing. Somehow, the impression reminded him of General Kenobi. “Now, we need to get you and your people out. I’m here for your extraction.”
“Surprised that Fey’lya bothered with an extraction plan.” Rex commented.
“Actually, he didn’t,” Luke grimaced as he spoke. “I came here on my own.”
Rex scowled. “Kriffing Fey’lya,” he growled. Then he froze. “Oh, sorry, sir.”
Luke smiled. “You don’t have to apologize to me, Commander. I understand your frustration. The plan was rather ruthless in regards to your team, but that’s why I am here. Just a slight change in the plan, one that Fey’lya won’t really be able to protest.”
“Leave no man behind, eh, sir?.” Rex smiled. “You sound a lot like another Jedi named Skywalker I once knew.”
Luke’s eyes widened. “You knew Anakin Skywalker?”
The sound of footsteps on the permacrete cut off Rex’s reply. There were several footsteps approaching, and by the sound of the clinking armor plates, it sounded like a full squad of storm troopers, at least. Rex drew his second DC 17, not bothering to reach for his discarded A280.  fighting alongside another Skywalker? No, he wouldn’t need a rifle. He wanted to fight like he had in the old days, like an ARC trooper. Like he always had alongside Anakin.
“We’ll talk when we get out of this,” Rex said.
Luke nodded. He drew out his lightsaber, igniting the green blade. “I’ll draw their fire.”
“After you, sir.”
Luke smiled. “You don’t need to call me sir, commander. I don’t outrank you.”
“Force of habit, Commander,” Rex replied, his grin widening. Then, on an impulse he couldn’t quite help, he added, “Besides, in my book, experience outranks everything.”
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short-wooloo · 1 year
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The "Jedi no fight in war because that's wroooong" crowd never seem to have anything to say about original trilogy era Jedi fighting in the galactic civil war
"But that's different!" They say
Is it?
The reasons for the Jedi to fight in clone wars are the same as the reasons to fight in the galactic civil war
The separatists: are lead by sith, are an oppressive tyrannical regime, committed multiple genocides/atrocities, and intended to wipe out the Jedi
The empire: are lead by sith, are an oppressive tyrannical regime, committed multiple genocides/atrocities, and intended to wipe out the Jedi
The only thing that makes the empire worse than the separatists is that they're a human supremacist regime
(Also it's never a good idea to sit out a conflict where one side wants your culture/group dead, your neutrality will not save you, it will in fact get you killed)
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renesassing · 10 months
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atsv's miguel o'hara is so revan-flavored. god bless.
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figures4fun · 7 months
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marinersubmariner · 2 months
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My sword!!!
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furious-blueberry0 · 4 months
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A gentle reminder that the "Balance of the Force" is not about the Light side and Dark side being equal.
It's about the Cosmic Force and the Living Force interacting with each other and giving life to the universe without being interrupted by people using them to bring destruction and death (something the Sith do).
The Jedi were not wrong to think that the prophecy was about destroying the Sith, because it is them who disturb the balance.
So, the dear Anakin, did not fulfill the prophecy by killing all the Jedi, leaving an "equal number of dark force users and light force users", he fulffilled it when he killed Palpatine and then died, eradicating all the Sith.
So no, the balance was not restored with the death of the Jedi, like i saw many claim, but with the death of the Sith, the selfish individuals who only bringed destruction and pain to the galaxy, who liked to bend the will of the Force to their liking, while completely ignoring the balance.
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the-overanalyzer · 1 year
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I do like that Merrin’s philosophy on the Dark Side really is “just don’t act like a complete supervillain (unless it would be funny) and you’ll be fine”.
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This is Ali Ondasa’jega, my Balosar Jedi rocking her new look courtesy of the ever-talented and utterly phenomenal @cadhla182 !
She’s been through one hell of a narrative arc, going from one of the earliest Jedi to voice concerns with the Clone Wars as a Padawan, and even trying to defect to the CIS when it wasn’t clear how dark they were as a form of protest, to the death of her adoptive father and imprisonment by the Republic, to her corruption by the Inquisition when she was made easy pickings during Order 66, having already been wracked with grief and anger, to finally meeting the love of her life, a Clawdite ex-Jedi as well who managed to bring her (mostly) back to the light by simply acting as a positive influence and effective counterbalance to the darker impulses she was grappling with. Back to the Light, though not exactly the picture-perfect image of a serene Jedi by any stretch, Ali is the Jedi Knight you call on when diplomacy has failed and you really need someone willing and able to ruin some jerk’s day.
But before they can rebuild the Order, they kinda need to tear down the Empire! Rebellion, ho~!
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