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super-hero-confessions · 6 months

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Okay. I don't understand how it's gotten to this point with fans pulling made up shit about Loki from their asses but no.

NO.

Loki is not POC coded. He's not Jewish coded. He's not neurodivergent coded or whatever the fuck else.

HE IS 100% NORSE.

BASED OFF A NORSE TRICKSTER GOD WHO IS A KNOWN LIAR AND POT STIRRER THAT FUCKS WITH PEOPLE FOR FUNSIES.

CREATED BY NORSE FUCKING WHITE ASS WHITE PEOPLE WHO KNEW ICE AND SNOW AND FROST TO BE FUCKING DEADLY.

HE IS NOT "OTHER".

HE'S AN ASSHOLE WHO ENJOYS BEING AN ASSHOLE AND HAS ALSO SUFFERED SOME HARDSHIP BECAUSE HE IS SURROUNDED BY ASSHOLES AND PLAYS RIGHT INTO THAT HAND.

Big. Fucking. Whoop.

ALL GODS IN ALL CULTURES ARE NEEDLESSLY CRUEL AND NEEDLESSLY SUFFER BECAUSE THEY WERE SYMBOLIC AND MADE TO EXPLAIN WHAT PEOPLE COULDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.

LOKI IS NOT SPECIAL BECAUSE HE RAPES A HORSE.

But you know what that really means? Loki plays into the cycle of abuse just like a normal person and then goes on and makes it worse by dishing it out on unrelated people who never did anything to him. Like, I dunno, all the goddamn humans he kills?

He's that psycho kid with a psycho dad who tortures ants because he can't find healthy ways to cope and it doesn't get much deeper than that.

Stop making shit up that.

EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE IN ANYWAY WOULD NEVER EXCUSE HIM BEING A GENOCIDAL MANIAC WHO CARES NOTHING FOR HUMAN OR JOTUN LIFE YOU FASCIST ILLITERATE FUCKS.

AND GUESS WHAT. LOKI OF MYTH NEEDLESSLY STARTS ALL THE SHIT THAT HAPPENS WITH THE OTHER GODS BY GETTING BALDR KILLED.

If you have to write paragraphs upon paragraphs of made up bullshit you call meta and headcanons or whatever the fuck to defend the idea of liking this guy beyond the shallow fact that you would never dare go this hard for someone ugly or god forbid actual myth Loki?

You do not actually give a shit about the character. At all. Because you don't actually see the character. At all.

Personally, I love Loki for what he is. A dark grey chaos loving trickster diva and selfish asshole god that fucks with people for fun and gets the story rolling. All of that is what makes him fun as a character while paying appropriate homage to the stories he came from in a way that still feels respectful of what ancient cultures were trying to convey.

But I also love the actual good Loki that people write in fanfic sometimes.

I don't love the posturing people use him for to inadvertently spread misogyny or even white supremacy that slips under the radar because fandom can't accept that their shit does stink and there ARE bad actors.

It is okay to like or love Loki. It is okay to want things to be better for him or to be written better for him. It is okay to write fanfic where he is all of the things you want him to be.

It is not okay to culturally appropriate and deny what he is canonically with made up bullshit pulled from your ass to pretend that Loki was justified when he was ATTEMPTING GENOCIDE. And it is especially not okay to then have the audacity to deny the fact that Loki has pretty privilege.

Fuck you people doing this shit. At this point I prefer those that actually admit they like him because he's hot. Because at least they don't go rabid and are fucking HONEST with themselves about this shit and about his character.

And above all?

LOKI IS FICTIONAL.

PEOPLE DON'T OWE YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR DISLIKING OR HATING HIM. DOING SO IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU. THEIR EXISTENCE DOES NOT CHALLENGE YOURS AND THEIR PERSPECTIVES ARE JUST AS VALID.

JUST LIKE YOU DON'T OWE THEM AN EXPLANATION FOR LIKING HIM. YOU DON'T EVEN NEED ONE. BECAUSE HE'S FICTIONAL.

Have civil discourse and discussion if you want to, try and get more people to like Loki and see the lighter grey in him even. But you do that by being NICE.

Not by being a dismissive, denying, bullying asshole that then pretends you have the moral high road over ultimately meaningless. Fictional. Bullshit.

I guarantee a majority of people who hate Loki now? It's not because Loki is imperfect or the "other". It's because his stans do everything they can to be toxic, hostile, and in turn make him look bad.

Even Loki's never attempted to justify his attempts at genocide. Escape accountability, sure. But not justify it.

#confession #rant #loki

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lostpages · 3 years

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I love how marvel gave us giant Loki and the fandom was like "My blue, giant baby🥺"

#if you don't agree look away shoo #this is me attacking myself #he is blue #he is mine #he is baby #my baby #jotun loki #jotun loki supremacy #jotun loki is the reason for my happiness #loki #marvel #marvel what if

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les-loki · 3 years

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Me every time Jotun Loki appeared in today’s episode of what if…..👁👁😤

I’ll risk getting that frost-bite ANYDAY😌

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paper-lilypie · 3 years

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(@antoniostarshadow13 you mad lad! Nice idea!!)

The thing about having a short boyfriend is that you can always pick him up 😌✨

#jotun loki supremacy I said what I said #is this spicy? I don’t think it counts as spicy #I didn’t see it that way at least #ANYWAY #short boyfriend is short and needs upies for kisses #and loki is one generous lover #Mobius loves the attention I promise #loki #lokius #Mobius #fanart #jotun loki

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supermarvelgirl15 · 3 years

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I'm obsessed with Jotun Loki please send help

#i just love him #jotun loki supremacy indeed #jotun loki #loki #loki odinson #loki laufeyson #what if...?#marvels what if #what if #what if spoilers #marvel #tom hiddleston

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sleepsunawareof · 3 years

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Got home from Disneyland to find What If...? Ep 7 and oh my goddddddddddddd.

Party Thor!

JOTUN LOKI!

Darcy and the Duck!

Puking Drax!

Scooting Grandmaster!

Frigga coming to lay the smackdown!

And then VISION ULTRON THANOS WTF

I'm dead.

#what if...?#ep 7 #party thor #jotun loki #mcu #what if #omfg #vision ultron #grandmaster supremacy forever #this episode was too funny #I love jotun loki and need more of him #also party thor omg

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leucoratia · 3 years

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Jötun!Loki to bless your eyes and hearts my beauties.

He's an ink and watercolours on thick grain paper, with a dash of gold acrylics! He took me about 5 hours but worth it. Now I have this gorgeous man lovingly gazing at me from my wall.

🧊Jötun Loki supremacy🧊

#jotun loki #loki of jotunheim #rightful king of jotunheim #fanart #tva loki #loki fanart #loki edit #lokiedit #TDW loki #thor the dark world #loki pls #i love you so much #my beautiful blue bean how i miss you #art #my art #loki laufeyson #loki odinson #i love him so much your honor #loki supremacy

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leather-bound-art · 3 years

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Crikey! It’s a Croki!

#loki show #loki odinson #loki marvel #lady loki #tesseract #jotun loki #croki my beloved #croki supremacy #croki #loki fanart #lokisarmy #loki disney+#loki of asgard #crocodile #alligator #crocodile loki #alligator loki #gator #gator loki

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friendlyneighbourhoodnerd · 3 years

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So, the What If animators believe in Jotun Loki supremacy. Good to know.

Does this make up for the lack of Jotun Loki in Loki - not really. But it still made me gasp. Loudly.

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hueningkoi · 3 years

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What If was life changing today. Jotun Loki supremacy!!!! Also what if loki and moby met in Vegas 👀👀👀

#what if #what if marvel #lokius #jotun loki #loki laufeyson #mobius m. mobius #mars art #my art

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worstloki · 3 years

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please read the article 'How White Fandom is Colonizing "Character-Coding"' by Shafira Jordan and quit while you're ahead

Okay, so I read it and see the problem, and I’ll try to address all their points in order because I don’t wholly agree with the article. I know it’s a lot to read so I’ve put tldr; sections at the end of each :)

Misusing the Term Reinforces Negative Stereotypes for Marginalized People

The article essentially argues that labeling characters which are villainous as POC-coded is bad because they’re not morally pure and doing so "reinforces the idea that people of color are naturally dangerous and not to be trusted.”

Which is fair as you don’t want all the representation to be of ‘bad’ characters, but I also don’t believe all representative characters have to be ‘good’ either as it would be equally racist to divide good/bad in such a way. Not that I would place Loki under ‘bad’ to begin with, but arguing that characters shouldn’t be labelled as POC-coded for reasons unrelated to what’s presented in the narrative or because they did bad things is :/ even if lack of good representation is a prevalent issue in current Western and influenced media.

Ideally there should be a range of representative characters that fall into ‘good’, ‘bad’, and ‘anywhere in-between’ because variety and complexity in character types should, in theory, be treated as common practice (which can only happen with a multitude of representation!).

And a bit unrelated but... within the fictional context of Thor 1, all the Jotnar (sans Loki) are presented to the audience as ‘bad’ by default. They desperately want to get their Casket back to the point of attempting stealing it (from the ‘good’ characters), they fight the heroes and even when the gang and Thor (’good’ characters) are enjoying or going overboard with taking lives it’s inconsequential, Laufey wants to kill the opposing king (who just happens to be a ‘good’ character) and will resort to low-handed methods to do so, etc. The narrative itself is from the frame of reference of the ‘good’ and we only see warriors of Jotunheim though so we understand why it’s like this, because regardless of their race/experiences the narrative carries, even if it most definitely would be seen as racist from our real-life perspectives if the ‘monstrous’ race were presented by actual people of colour, even if it would make sense for the people on on different realms living in different environments to be different from each other, and realistic even for that to be the root of some conflict.

tldr; not using a specific label to prevent negative presentations of the characters seems a bit strange to do when the coding would be based off the text, but with limited representation available I see why it would be done, even if I still believe minority-coding is free game to expand/interpret.

Improperly Labeling a Character as “POC-coded” Suggests the Experiences of All People of Color are the Same

The article argues that labeling Loki as POC-coded “suggests that all people of color have the same experiences, when in reality, people of color come from different places, have different cultures, and have different traditions.” And while it’s true that the term doesn’t go into detail about which particular experiences (and these experiences can vary vastly due to diversity!) the appropriate measure would be to remove the umbrella term POC altogether as people of colour tend to also vary. But that’s also exactly why it’s an all-encompassing general term? It’s a way to denote anyone who isn’t “white” and has the associated cultural privilege that comes with the concept of white supremacy.

And, obviously, in the fictional setting presented, the concept of white supremacy is not prodded at, but cultural supremacy is definitely one that makes recurring appearances, right next to the parts about Asgard being a realm built on imperialism with ongoing colonial practice.

My take on this is that Loki’s narrative features a struggle with identity after finding out he’s of a different race and was being treated differently his entire life and being Jotun was presumably a part of the reasoning even if he didn’t know it. He’s basically treated as of less worth for inherently existing differently. I do believe that racism is a common-enough POC experience, but that while Loki was born with blue skin he passes/appears white which is why I don’t say that Loki is a POC, just that he has been coded/can be interpreted this way.

There’s also the entire thing with Loki trying to fit in and prove he belongs by trying to fit the theory and be The Most Asgardian by committing genocide (which ultimately makes no difference as he’s still not the ‘acceptable’ version of Asgardian), and the denial/rejection of his birth culture in destructively lashing out towards them (which even Thor is confused by because Loki isn’t typically violent), and the fact his self worth plummets and he is passively suicidal upon finding out he’s Jotun (internalized racism? general drop in self-worth after finding out he’s adopted and has been lied to? Bit of both?), but what do I know, I’m sure none of those are, at their base, common experiences or relatable feelings for anyone or decent rep because we see such themes on-screen presented wonderfully in different lights all the time.

tldr; every set of experiences could be different, some types of discrimination could overlap, if you limit an umbrella term to only very specific circumstances then it’s no longer an umbrella term.

Suggesting that White Characters are Meant to be Seen as People of Color Ignores the Actual Characters of Color that are Present in these Stories

I don’t agree with most of this section, but that may just be the way the arguments are put together, which I don’t blame the author for.

“ Implying that Loki is a person of color completely ignores Heimdall and Hogun, the only Black and Asian Asgardians who appear in the movie. ”

Characters such as Hogun and Heimdall which are played by actual people of colour have smaller roles in the films and any prejudice they could face for being POC in-universe isn’t made apparent, while Loki at the very least comes to the realization that something he couldn’t change (race, parentage,) was having him treated differently his whole life and had to come to terms with it. The Vanir/Aesir are also both treated similarly on-screen, and Heimdall having dark skin isn’t plot relevant, whereas Jotnar are treated as lesser consistently and are relevant through the movie (breaking into the vault, Thor and co. attack Jotunheim, Loki’s deal with Laufey, the attempted regicide (and the successful one XD), destroying jotunheim, Loki saying he’s not Thor’s brother,).

I also see including characters as POC-coded as... more representation? In all canon-compliant interpretations of the characters Hogun being Vanir is always explicitly mentioned because it’s a fact that just is, up to the appearance and even the world-building of Vanaheim in some fanworks use particularly East Asian culture as inspiration. I have never come across a Marvel fandom Heimdall interpretation where he’s not Black... but because these characters are more minor/side-characters of course they get less attention!

“ In Loki’s fandom, Heimdall’s name sometimes gets thrown in to suggest that it was he all along who was the real villain due to his “racism” against Loki and the rest of the Jotun. It is, of course, ironic to suggest that somehow the only Black Asgardian to appear in the movie can oppress the privileged white prince. “

I... don’t know where to start with this. But the example of theorizing given in the article wasn’t suggesting Heimdall was bad or trying to explain his actions in Thor 1 by saying he is Black... and just looking at a character’s actions shouldn’t be done less or more critically because of skin tone in my opinion. Heimdall may have been trying to do what was best and protect the realm but if the audience didn’t know that Loki was up to dodgy things then the coding would be switched around because he was trying to spy and committed treason and then tried to kill Loki. People... can hold feelings towards others... regardless of skin... and suspect them... for reasons other than skin... although I do still have questions about whether Heimdall knew Loki was Jotun or not. (Even if I personally don’t think it’d make a difference to how he’d treat Loki?)

Some Loki fans have also suggested that because Jotuns have blue skin that this alone makes him a person of color (even if the audience is only allowed to see Loki in his true Jotun form for mere seconds of screentime). This, again, shows a lack of understanding when it comes to race. It doesn’t matter what skin color the Jotuns have.

Race can differentiate between physical and/or behavioural characteristics!! Not being blue all the time doesn’t make him any less Jotun!! He’s got internalized stuff to work through and is used to being Aesir!! At least 1 parent is Jotun so even if Loki was passing as Aesir he’s probably Jotun!! (I don’t know how magic space genetics work for sure but Loki being Jotun was an entire very important jump-starting point in Thor 1!!). It’s a fantasy text and typically things like having different coloured skin indicates a different race or is sometimes if a species has multiple then is just considered a skin colour. That’s how coding works!! The Jotnar are very specifically the only race we see in the movie with a skin-tone not within the ‘normal’ human range, which alienates them to the audience from the get-go!! They’re an “other” and on the opposite side to the ‘good’ characters.

Both Loki and his birth father, Laufey (Colm Feore), are played by white men, and it is impossible for a white man to successfully play a character of color.

The specification of men here bothers me, but yes, you don’t get ‘white’ people to play characters of colour if it can be avoided. (And it can be avoided.)

This also connects with the previous point made that people of color come from various places. There is nothing specifically about the Jotun that could be traced to any specific person of color, and even if there were, there would be no way for white men to portray them without being disrespectful.

This is where arguments about the definition of coding and how specificity/generalizations and do/don’t come in. I know I’m subjective and lean towards the more rep the better, but while I agree ‘white’ people wouldn’t be able to respectfully play a POC I don’t think that rule should have to carry over into fantasy-based fiction. I know texts reflect on reality and reality can reflect within texts, but if contextually there is racial discrimination and there are similar ideas which resonate with the audience’s own experiences I’d say it’s coded well enough to allow that.

tldr; Thor 1′s narrative revolves mainly around Thor and Loki, of which race is kinda kinda a significant theme in Loki’s part of the story. Not so much explored with less-developed side characters such as Heimdall and Hogun, even though their actors are actual people of colour.

How Much of this is Really Well-Intentioned?

In the fantasy space viking world Heimdall and Hogun don’t face any on-screen prejudice and their appearance is not mentioned (which is nice, for sure! good to have casual rep!) but adding on to the roles they play in the narrative the explicit fantasy-racism in the movie isn't aimed at Asian/Black characters, but towards the Humans -to a lesser extent- and the Jotnar, including Loki, who only just found out he comes under that bracket.

The article mentions how fandom space toxicity often “reaches the actors who portray the characters,“ which is true, and it’s shameful that people have to justify their roles or presences are harassed for the pettiest things like skin tone/cultural background, but I don’t see coding characters as removing the spotlight from interesting characters such as those which are actually POC, rather expressing a demand for more rep, since well-written complex characters which are diverse are often absent/minor enough in the media, and therefore can get easily brushed aside in both canon and fandom spaces.

tldr; It’s obviously not a replacement for actual representation, but, if a character is marginalized and can be interpreted as coded, even if they would only be considered so within the context of the textual landscape, I don’t see why spreading awareness through exploring the coding as a possibility for the character shouldn’t be done, even if the media is being presented by people who are ‘white’ or privileged or may not fall into the categories themselves, as long as it’s done respectfully to those it could explicitly represent.

#please don’t patronize me by asking to quit while i’m ahead #it doesn't help anyone #so anyway i've summarized my opinion on the coding thing here for the many anons whose answers could be answered in this ask alone #i think i covered everything?#the article started out okay but I found it kinda :/ in places even though there were valid concerns #I do believe that in-universe context and creators of the media should be taken into account #and that if marginalized themes can be touched on by non-marginalized groups then... great? fictional texts can help people understand #i do also think that rep being presented should if not on-screen have people working on the product to support and ensure it's done well #the world is cold and harsh and cruel and i just wanted a desi Loki AU but here we are #I've got to try and summarize how I think Thor 1 presents Loki's part of the narrative well with POC-coding there because of fantasy-racism #even if the POC-coding is ignored the themes of racism are far too apparent to ignore #loki spends the entire film being a multi-dimensional character and having an entire downfall fueled by grief and a desire to be loved #I don't think attaching a label to such a character would be a negative thing... but perhaps for casual watchers it'd be a bit :/#apparently not everyone takes into account the 1000+ years of good behavior around that 1 year of betrayal/breakdown/identity crisis/torture #MetaAnalysisForTheWin #MAFTW #ThisPostIsLongerThanMyLifeSpan #TPILTMLS #AgreeToDisagreeOrNot #ATDON #poc-coding #yes i ignored everything not about loki in the article what about it #hmmm I know people are going to disagree with me with what should and shouldn't be allowed #I know some people are okay with it but some don't like the poc-coding thing #and that's fine #completely understandable #makes me uncomfy to talk about fictional space racism in comparison to real life but I do think that lack of rep is why coding is important #for some people coding is all that they get #but also!! @ifihadmypickofwishes suggested the term racial allegory and I do believe that is also suitable here!! so I’ll try using that too #rather than poc-coding even though I still believe it applies

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itscomplicatedx · 3 years

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Episode 5 Thoughts-

-Definitely an improvement over last week.

-Alligator Loki supremacy! Though I’m guessing we’re never going to get his backstory. No one questions the Alligator 🐊. Just let him run everything. He is an overly sensitive soul who likes wine and eating the hands of troublesome variants of himself. And he rolled his eyes! I almost fell over laughing.

-We haven’t seen “Glorious Loki” and/or “King Loki” yet. Unless they cut him from the show, I say he could be the one running the TVA. Loki and Sylvie triggered the nexus event that could destroy the TVA because they came to care for one another. If Glorious Loki is running things, it’s at least partially based on his hatred of other Lokis and wanting to keep them losing and unhappy. We see that unfortunately too often Lokis hate each other and try to betray each other (or eat each other’s hands).

-If GL is running things he needs to die. You can’t hold the whole universe hostage.

-Supposedly the end of time is still being written. GL or whoever is running it is probably trying out different timelines to find the perfect one. Or the shots of Loki as king could be from a timeline where he “wins” after the TVA is brought down.

-Gator Loki attacking people. 😆

-Classic Loki can communicate with Gator Loki. ❤️

-We got the Loki brawl! Well-a Loki brawl, though not with just Lokis. More Lokis, more brawling please!

-“This is a nightmare.” Our Loki is just so done with his variants. 😆

-The episodes are so short-even if they’re going to give us a season 2, I wish we’d get more of everything. This whole purgatory world with different versions of people and timelines is an intriguing idea that has a lot of potential; but we barely get to spend any time in it. Would’ve preferred 2 episodes like this instead of last week’s episode.

-Potentially zillions of versions of every character we’ve ever known!

-Mobius is a talented driver! Comes from a lifetime of driving Jetskis.

-Why was Sylvie arrested?!

-I loved all the bantering between the Lokis. “Why do you get to wear the horns!”

-Kid Loki gave Loki Lævateinn!

-Why did they have to get rid of Classic Loki so quickly?! He’s awesome!

-Finally, some magic!

-No I don’t think they’re ever actually going to do a Sylki kiss. I predicted from the beginning that they’re going to try to have their cake and eat it too. In other words, they’re going to flirt around with the concept of Sylki, talk about it in interviews, and show them being affectionate. But they will never quite get fully physical to try to moderate the backlash.

-Classic Loki’s costume sucks because he was alone on a planet and had to improvise.

-Why/how did Kid Loki kill Thor? Wish he’d killed Odin.

-”Every time we do better we get pruned”. Ugh.

-Poor Frog Thor! He should probably stay out of sight though or Gator Loki will eat him.

-Gator Loki ate the wrong neighbor’s cat 😁

-So how did old Loki manage to survive to old age-wouldn’t the TVA have gotten him as soon as he failed to be killed? Unless……Tom once said the show will answer two main questions- whether Loki is really dead, and where he went after Endgame. I am wondering if in the real prime timeline Loki is alive and just laying low. He had fulfilled his purpose and was supposed to die alone. The TVA didn’t get him until he started to want to find people again.

-I love how they poked fun at Loki’s death in Infinity War.

-Where are the other Loki variants? I get that it’s a big place because that’s where all the pruned timelines go, but still, it’s not like they can’t afford the special effects for Jotun Loki and Hulk Loki.

-I’m confused as to exactly what Boastful Loki was after? I mean it seems like there were only four of them living in that place. He really did all that for a chair that has an L on it to rule over three other Lokis? Because it seems like President Loki had never met any of the others besides Boastful Loki before. It’s very confusing.

-If Lokis are gender fluid why were they so surprised there was a female version of them?

-President Loki! Tom was having so much fun I bet you he enjoyed that

-So it seems like the Tom Hiddleston looking male presenting Loki is the default? Was Hammer Loki born black, or did he shape shift into that form and decide to stay like that? Seems like Loki can change his DNA at will.

-Glad to see Sylvie talk to Mobius about the shit the TVA did and him apologizing to her. Would’ve been nice to see him do that to Loki 1130 as well.

-Seems the TVA instilled an “End justifies the means” mentality in its workers. Excited to see them free themselves.

-Loki and Sylvie talking about how Mobius is a grey character just like them. Everyone in this series is a grey character. Except for Casey. He’s perfect.

-Free B-15!

-I want to know what happens to Casey.

-Burn it all down Mobius! Someone get the man a jetski. Loki was the spark.

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