#just because it's presented as 'oh he deserves it tho bc he's a narcissist and he's in love and is a bad person owo'

[worstloki]

i don’t really think it’s fair to say or imply that Loki was Mobius’ slave, or even the TVA’s. Mobius is just doin his job for one. And for another, Loki is a criminal, even if he wasn’t in his right mind when he invaded earth, he still invaded it. he does still have to pay for that, and in that light, the TVA went easy on him. Maybe their relationship shouldn’t have been presented as quite so friendly, but I think they were friends by the end of the season and saying all this awful stuff about Mobius being Loki’s jailer captor enslaver torturer and whatever…it’s too far and there’s no real canon basis for it.

ah yes, of course, bad things are fine to do if someone has done bad things. because they deserve it. got it.

Listen. I'm not sure what canon you've been watching but forcing someone to work with you under threat of death is bad, lying to and blaming them for future events is bad, putting someone in intentional distress and knowing they will react bad to their mother's death and leaving the images up is bad, telling them that they were born to cause pain and suffering and death (especially when their father is Odin, their siblings are Hela and Thor) is bad, leaving someone getting beaten up and rubbing salt in their fears (even as part of 'breaking them') is bad, casually dehumanizing people (words like "pet" and "my/your Loki" and "the Variant") and pruning/resetting/killing people en masse or on an individual basis once they're of no use to you is bad, I'm not even going to continue this list because the TVA itself has such BAD vibes it's literally an authority that's enforcing it's own turn of events and calling it 'sacred' with people like Mobius/B-15/Renslayer pushing their agenda forward because they simply believe it's for the greater good while invalidating Loki's questions until the point where they personally find out they were also Variants (and still express no remorse/mention of any moral argument or lives taken, they just comment on how they could've been happy before).

Like, buddy, pal, I don't know how to tell you this but Mobius is very clearly psychologically torturing Loki in episode 1 in order to break him down and get him to join their side, I would even argue that he physically does so in exercising control of where Loki can move or how he reacts with the collar after riling him up. He does the same thing in episode 4 even more explicitly for everyone who missed it.

Arguing he advocates for or sees the best in Loki is something that doesn't have a canon basis. Every "that's not how I see it," "Is that possible? He can change?" "You could be whoever, whatever you wanna be, even someone good" is surrounded by interrogation tactics and "give my regards to Lady Sif" "What a incredible seismic narcissist" "He's softening in the Time Cell, but while he marinates..." "Just kind of an asshole and a bad friend. Yeah, chew on that for a little bit" "And, hey, if it doesn't work, I'll delete him myself."

There is explicit canon basis of these things, and whether you'd rather not acknowledge them is up to you, and I don't blame you for thinking otherwise since the narrative frames Mobius as some kind of moral pillar of righteous goodness (he ain't) and has he and Loki use the words "friends," but I want it on record I don't use words like slave or torturer or abuser lightly, and don't recall having used slaver/enslaver/captor/jailer for Mobius like you've implied either, though some of the words you've got listed would be accurate descriptions, I'd think, since Loki's only option was work for the TVA or die - until the end of Episode 3, after which he was accused of having 'betrayed' Mobius and been a 'bad friend'.

I'm not even going to address "i don’t really think it’s fair to say or imply that Loki was Mobius’ slave, or even the TVA’s [slave]" "mobius us just doin his job" "the TVA went easy on him" or "maybe their relationship shouldn’t have been presented as quite so friendly" because I don't think I'm capable of doing that without some strong language and a lot of caps lock and this post is already long enough I think.

I also want it noted that Loki's hardly done anything worse than the hero characters. Just because he's been framed as an antagonist doesn't make his own actions worse or theirs better, so do please feel free to apply the same logic you are on what Loki deserves on them too.

Here's relevant posts in the event you wish to read up: (on Mobius' inherent goodness and his job) (on Mobius' take on Frigga) (the holy grail of Loki (2021) meta masterposts) (on Loki supposedly learning to care in the show) (thor 1 loki doesn't deserve bad treatment)

#look #you're free to interpret things how you will #but there's no way episode 1 wasn't psychological torture and there's no way episode 4 wasn't at LEAST physical torture #just because it's presented as 'oh he deserves it tho bc he's a narcissist and he's in love and is a bad person owo' #doesn't mean im not going to refer to it that way #like how maybe someone interprets Frigga as a good caring motherly mother #that's well and good but i'm still going to call her a hypocrite who was gaslighting because that's literally what's happening #torturing someone makes them a torturer but even then I only use the words when specifically referring to a moment or in summary #and i'm counting the Sif thing as torture even if it's funny #even WITH the retconned backstory that's still torture #even if someone deserved it that's STILL torture #even if that's someone's job! that's! still! torture! #the act doesn't change because of context because someone is getting hurt #it's like saying ''well it's unfair to say loki attempted genocide because he was just doing what he'd been raised to do'' #WHICH by the way has more supporting evidence for being morally okay to do within context than the TVA's killing #because at least Loki until the show wasn't denying any of the things he'd done or blaming others or being a hypocrite #while the TVA very much IS built on terrible concepts AND sees Loki's role as an evil scourge for not doing 0.001% of the stuff they do #AND PLEASE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT MOBIUS' TONE WHEN HE SAYS THINGS LIKE ''maybe loki can change? mix it up? is that possible?'' #because not only is his voice loaded with doubt or 'eh he's useful so keep him' but he has Loki's whole life on file #he saw Loki do good before Thor 1 and in TDW and Ragnarok and Infinity War #so the entire thing just has me going AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA #YEAH loki ''betrays'' people and you LOOK AT THE LIST OF PEOPLE AND IT'S ALL VILLAINS (with the exception of Thor) #so AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is apt methinks #the Loki show

[macklives]

session 63 end

okayyy. neat-fucking-o. thats done and boy OH FUCKING BOY i have a lot to say. and this is going to get mildly serious. sorry. theres a lot to uncover this session which basically is just one huge overall plot point. the whole timeline shindig. the thing that has messed me up for a few hours ngl.

man.... this is gonna be a long one. im not even exaggerating. (still, a tldr at the end)

so, the main thing besides from the time shindig plot, which is both important and essential and precious: DAVESPRITE <3 

k cool. ill expand on that throughout this whole note, but would rather like to make a whole analogy first before i do so.

so, to start off from last session, dave went back in time to fix jade and john’s death.

but i guess, from what ive read, GC never realized what she did was bad. she basically screwed everyone over and dave had to go back to fix things, which yes, does sound bad. but honestly? i dont think she really realized how bad it was until davesprite had the talk with her. and now they are both friends i take it, shocking development. but thats between davesprite, rather than dave himself so there may be two different views on how he sees GC. anyways, it was pretty bad. i wont just forget that. i love her character but she killed off two characters (who thankfully are now alive), making dave a sprite and future rose to just not exist anymore. or... well.... she does, but she seemed to have fused with PRESENT rose. which i guess we’ll figure out how that works the next time we see her. which will probably be on derse. 

but, tbh, GC wanted to apologize and felt bad about the whole situation. so im giving her the benefit of the doubt here.

now.. man...

can i take a second to analyze davesprite? and a little bit about the concept of john/dave’s friendship (just a tad)? ie the two greatest things in the world? thanks.

i think the thing that hit me the hardest was how davesprite (im calling him that to distinguish which dave im talking about but keep in mind i should be calling them both dave. but this makes it easier to write up.) well, davesprite explained how he’d continue to reset the timeline until john and jade are alive. which basically means he would use himself as a sacrifice to allow their survival. which ALSO means he cares more for them than he does himself. he’d throw his life away for them. he knew there was a possibility of him ceasing to exist if they reset the timeline again. he literally said it in such a nonchalant way that it makes me wonder how much his friends really mean to him. which in retrospect, is a lot. now pls keep this in mind for the next part.

now, dave also has so much appreciation towards himself. but not in the cocky way, of course. rather in the way that shows self love?? kinda?? like he genuinely wanted to hang with davesprite, brainstorm his comic and vice versa bc they both think their alt version is that cool. i know it should sound kinda narcissistic, but listen. a lot of people dont often appreciate themselves for who they are. and what i really want to emphasize on that here, is that this comes back to the whole putting himself before others thing. because that specific line i mentioned before is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. since dave thinks so highly of himself as a cool guy, rad dude, arent we so awesome type kid that he LITERALLY didnt care for his life in that one hot second. he made sure he was a pawn used to help out his friends rather than an actual human being who should worry about his life as well. he didnt care if he survived or not in the process of making sure everything was going alright. which is such a fucking leap from this whole self-respecting thing. its as if that didnt matter anymore. and that takes a fucking beating. that shows how much dave truly loves his friends. do you know how fucking BIG THAT WHOLE DEAL IS?

take john for example. dave didnt give two shits who the person on the other line was. he found out GC was the troll who killed john and basically threatened her with every inch of his life to make her back away from him. he knew what it would cause and said “fuck you” in bright and bold. all because he didnt want to see his friend die again. which? fair enough. and if we look back at the last session, god that could mess someone up. especially someone as young as 13. rose even got the worst end of the stick bc she flat out ceased to exist. but then again, thats in the same boat as jade/john. bc they all technically died. yet davesprite didnt. he remembers it. davesprite isnt just going to forget. he’s going to have surviver’s guilt for a long time, because being dave’s guide will forever be a reminder that he’s the version in the doomed timeline. he’s the only one who knows what happened, and he wont become the “true dave” in a sense that he’s now just considered “davesprite” and nothing more, since he cant just be dave since his timeline ended up fucked. not to mention he technically said he was fine with it, bc since it meant the others survived, he wouldnt care what happened to his life. even tho he should and it still probably hurts him idk. and that kills me a little. actually, more than a little. this is personally the most gut wrenching scene in homestuck (but i may just be speculating too much). but that wont stop him from helping dave and giving him all the answer, and also protecting john with everything he has.

and, man, i feel as if he’s gonna be such a good guide for dave. he already gave him the loot, the rundown and is very open about questions dave already has because he knows how tough it probably is to have a shitty guide. considering he was stuck with calsprite for 4 months. so obviously he’s going to help as much as possible. since he probably had little to none and didnt learn as much as he should have through the course of sburb. but now, as a guide, he can easily access all the info he lost during the pathway of his timeline. and share it with dave so he doesn’t struggle and actually completes the game rather than end up in a doomed timeline like himself.

but yes. dave’s blatant adoration for john basically saved them both in a way. and it seems as if its a little mutual considering john told dave he’d always believe him no matter what in the end. how he reconsidered everything, remembered the note and realized how good their friendship is to just give it up like that. and then vice versa. dave couldnt continue on the game without him or jade, so he went back in time. and showed his pissed-off protective side in order to save john again. which warms my heart bc they both mean so much to each other. and both got each other super sentimental gifts and wrote each other such touching cards.

and thats a good way to end the session, i think.

so there we have it. ive never wanted to hug a character so bad than i do with davesprite. i just hope everyone at least acknowledges him in some way, and gives him some amount of respect for what he did for everybody. ive only met him for like 10 pages, but i think he’s the most emotional character so far. and i guess since he’s dave himself, and i feel for dave based on his situation with bro, its safe to say i would protect him with my life. which i dont want to be *that* person but hey, its true. its just that he’s been through so much bullshit, and davesprite is the only survivor of his timeline, always will be reminded of it whenever he sees dave/john/rose/jade playing the game, is now a fucking sprite who wont be able to live his own path but just be a guide and god, i feel for him. i really do.

i shouldnt have written such a long note about davesprite.. but his whole story as to how he became a thing really got to me, alright?

i should write a tldr, cool. here yall go; i actually love davesprite, he’s been through some shit and he deserves hells of respect. GC is forgiven and we’ll find out next time how both version of rose.. fused together? 

#homestuck #homestuck liveblog #hs63 #hs63 end