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dragonsarecats · 5 months

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I'M SORRY FOR WORDING IT LIKE THAT I played the Golden Deers, some of my favorite queer ship are with Deers and some of my favorite character are among the deers! My favorite deer ship is probably Leonie x Lysithea ( She litteraly say Leonie would make an incredible partner! Why do their support stop at B again?? ) and my otp is Hilda x Edelgard ( do not judge me I have REASONS ). And also, one of my favorite queer headcanon is trans aro-ace Claude! So I genuinely love the Deers as queers!

However, for me the deer and the diverse queer content around them is heavily a fandom thing. When I say the deer are "too straight for me", I meant it for the game directly. Like you have the Black Eagles where not only litteraly every characters is canon queer/has heavily subtext but has also its whole narrative drenched in queer metaphor! You have the Blue Lions where, while there's less "canon queer", you litteraly cannot say most of its members are straight with how heavy the subtext that's barely even subtext anymore is: there's 0 straight explanation for Felix crying more at Dimitri death than his wife, or him dying the same day as Sylvain because they can't live without each other.

But for the Deers... You have Hilda/Marianne and Claude/Lorenz as the most popular one but while their relationship are so fascinating, when you only look only at the game, they feel too platonic? Especially compared to a Dedue/Dimitri ( like a family in private. took up a post at his grave for the most of his days. BURIED BESIDE EACHOTHER ) or a Ferdinand/Hubert ( rare A+ support, with blushing, their own little surname, Ferdinand/Edelgard support changing just to mention Ferdinand drinking coffee ). Otherwise you have Leonie/Lysithea which stop at B. You have Raphael/Ignatz where they decided to just push the relationship to make their ending all about Ignatz with his sister.

Like really, the Deers manage to have less in game queer moment than the Church of Seiros, Rhea aside, of all things! We were so robbed! The rainbow house deserve better. I'm a lesbian and after all my playthrough Verdant Winds was my only route where I had to marry a man, all I wanted was a lavender wedding with Claude while I have a passionate romance with Leonie :(

To sum up: Lysithea and Leonie should kiss, Intelligent Systems are fucking cowards

For the fandom I'll have to disagree, I think the Deers have a lot a queer content and it's amazing :] My only thing might be how Claude has become the first character you think of when talking about bi fe3h character which is kinda telling how wlw are dismissed in the general fandom, but its better than some people insisting he's totally straigh so eh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

( Also I big agree on Hilda support being gem, she's such a great character and one that's much more complex than given credit for!! )

Oh and I think I disagree with Deers being the more family found-esq ( saying that bc it's a great subject of I discussion and I want to hear more about your opinion on the matter )

The Lions is the family where they all stick together through thick and thin, following Dimitri to hell and back, but their relationship are complexe and not always healthy ( mostly at the beginning with like Dimitri & Felix or Ingrid & Sylvain ).

The Eagles are the found family where a lot of them bitch about each other at first but they end up with deep relationship where they take care for each other and stand together against the world, even sticking together during the time skip ( also because they kinda all killed each other dad ).

The Deers are for me more like an actual close group of friend: their life are not going to revolve around each other like it does with the other houses, but they won't hesitate to come for that 5 years reunion to see the other. It's kinda like you say they're so normal in a good way! They tease each other but they don't hate each other in the way of a Dimitri/Felix, a Caspar/Petra, a Ferdinand/Hubert ( except for Lorenz but like, it's Lorenz ). They won't kill the other dad, but they'll sure as hell support each other like Lorenz and Ignatz or Marianne and Raphael. They might not start a revolution together but they will listen to the other even when it’s total heresy ( Leonie & Claude, such an incredible support :’) ) and help the other to reach their goal… I do agree with you it’s linked to not knowing each other before, but on that, isn’t knowing each other before more of a Lion thing than not knowing being a Deer thing? I don’t know, the BE are kind of a middle ground.

( Sorry for my ramblings- It's so fun talking about the deers )

AA anon thank you for the long ask!! Okay I'm gonna take this point by point under the readmore!

"My favorite deer ship s probably Leonie x Lysithea ( She litteraly say Leonie would make an incredible partner! Why do their support stop at B again?? )"

INCREDIBLY fair and based of you, lol, I read Lysithea as gay and it's 100% because of the support conversations she has with Leonie and Hilda (which to me implies an ADORABLE crush--Lysithea seems to genuinely respect and admire Hilda which is not something you'd expect from like, a surface level reading of their characters).

I'm gonna admit my own bias here in terms of canon text endings--my favorite Lysithea ending is her paired ending with Lorenz. It really reads like a queer platonic relationship to me--I don't really get romantic vibes from either of them (gay as they are) towards each other, but the commitment and care they have for each other genuinely warms my heart. Especially the fact that like, Lorenz is SO determined to ensure Lysithea takes care of herself and the ending doesn't really imply that she dies young (only that her health is delicate/poor) in comparison to others, and she and her family get to live the quiet life they want. Of course, as an aro/ace disabled person, I think it probably hits differently for me than people who aren't just because of the fact that after the most recent time I saw their support chain/got their ending I teared up a bit (and also why I'm now adoring your trans-aro-ace Claude).

ANYWAYS, I agree IS are cowards and that's why Edelgard is the only Lord who can romance both male/female Byleth.

"For the fandom I'll have to disagree, I think the Deers have a lot a queer content and it's amazing :]"

I probably didn't word what I meant completely lol correctly-- it's not that the Deer don't have a lot of queer content, it's just that overall, they have less content in general made for them then the Black Eagles and Blue Lions.

I do ALSO love so much of the queer content made for the Deers! The Three Houses fandom is amazing.

"My only thing might be how Claude has become the first character you think of when talking about bi fe3h character which is kinda telling how wlw are dismissed in the general fandom, but its better than some people insisting he's totally straight so eh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Okay, so I was kind of dancing around saying this to your last ask but you hit the nail on the head lol. I genuinely think the reason why the Deer might come across as less queer is because the "main ship" for them, so to speak, is the WLW pairing Hilda/Marianne.

Ironically when I think about bi fe3h characters my first thought is consistently Lindhardt?

"Oh and I think I disagree with Deers being the more family found-esq ( saying that bc it's a great subject of I discussion and I want to hear more about your opinion on the matter )

Okay so I definitely agree with you that they're all found family, explicitly in the text lol. What I meant in my statement that they're the most found-family-esq is that you get to see the development of ALL their relationships and becoming that family together on screen.

The Lions (a mess, and I love them), are pretty heavily involved with each other at the beginning of the game. A lot of the intrigue with them is the fact that they all have backstory stuff going on with each other (save for Ashe, I think, but we kill his dad on screen so). Mercedes and Annette went to Sorcery School together, Felix/Sylvain/Dimitri/Ingrid are all childhood friends with intense complications, and the trauma and deliberate kindness that brought together Dimitri and Dedue makes me emotional.

Similarly to them, the Black Eagles all have a history with each other (save for Dorothea) as well. There's the insane and amazing devotion between Edelgard and Hubert, Lindhardt and Caspar's childhood friendship, the onesided rivalry going on between Ferdinand and Edelgard since they were kids and Hubert's judgement of Ferdinand for it. Petra and Bernadetta, technically don't have pre-established relationships with the others, but in ways that are deliberately intense. Petra is blatantly a political hostage in the Academy Era in a way that really informs her relationship with Edelgard and Hubert even before they get to know her. Additionally Bernadetta's isolation creates a kind of infamy between her and the other nobles.

The Golden Deer, on the other hand, don't really have as many intense bonds going in (and thus, in my opinion, makes it easier for Byleth to integrate amongst them as an eventual equal). There's the preestablished dynamic of Lorenz being suspicious of and wanting to best Claude, but it's a recently developed dynamic, as Claude only appeared a year ago. This would be a bigger personal issue if he was leading a house like the Blue Lions or the Black Eagles (noble heavy as they are), but it's barely an issue in the Deer and not just because of the commoners. Hilda, Lorenz, Lysithea, and Marianne are not close. In all his supports with the three of them, Lorenz is the one reaching out because of his belief that their time in the Academy should be used to form better and closer connections with other nobles. There is nothing to imply that there was any substance to their pre-existing relationships. The only two who have anything to their relationship before the game starts, are Raph and Iganatz, who haven't spoken in years, mostly due to guilt on Ignatz's behalf for what happened to Raphael's family.

So as a result, you get to see the bonds being formed and deepened with the Golden Deer from scrap. Obviously some development happens off screen during the time skip, but other than that the Deer's found family forms and develops completely on screen, which is why I think it's the most found family-esq of the three.

In fact, it's a huge part of Claude's story. It's something you don't really notice in his route, but it's really clear when you don't pick him. While Edelgard and Dimitri kind of can't function and literally can't without Byleth's support, Claude has probably the highest survivability rate when you don't choose him of any character save technically Marianne. He survives the Blue Lions route, the Black Eagles route (if you spare him), and is implied to have survived the Silver Snow route. When he doesn't have Byleth, he still survives, so not choosing him isn't as dramatic. But it's easy to see that without Byleth as a teacher, he doesn't open up enough to the Deer. Dimitri and Edelgard have assured loyalty from their houses (even Ferdie and Felix) becuase of these pre-established relationships and positions, but Claude has to earn it. That's why Hilda, despite being his vassal, is recruit-able so long as you don't choose Black Eagles (the only route where he can die). Without Byleth, although the Deer do grow close, they don't do it as quick or as closely as they do with the Professor. Claude is a character who's never been able to truly rely on others, even if they care about him, and being able to rely on Byleth allows him to open up and rely on the Deer and truly trust them. I mean, Claude's two most relied upon people in the Deer (as seen in 3Hopes when he goes against Dimitri) are Hilda and Lorenz. I don't think people talk enough about how insane it is that Claude trusts Hilda Goneril with his life, considering he's an Alymran prince.

That's also why I think the Deer are so good for Byleth. I don't think any of the other route's are bad for Byleth at all, but I think the deer provide something to Byleth that neither the Lions or the Eagles can bring to her: a single of equivalency. Byleth is only slightly older than her students in the Academy Era and is in fact younger than most of them in the War Era, and yet it's only really with the Deer that she feels like she's amongst peers (whether it be because of the commoner/noble ratio or that she's as much of a stranger to them as they are to each other.) I mean, Claude is literally the only character who doesn't call refer to her by her Profession.

Anyways, TLDR: I think they're the most found family because a huge part of the Golden Deer route is them getting to know and love each other from scratch, and being a found family is a much bigger thematic aspect for them then it is for the other two houses.

"However, for me the deer and the diverse queer content around them is heavily a fandom thing. When I say the deer are "too straight for me", I meant it for the game directly. Like you have the Black Eagles where not only litteraly every characters is canon queer/has heavily subtext but has also its whole narrative drenched in queer metaphor! You have the Blue Lions where, while there's less "canon queer", you litteraly cannot say most of its members are straight with how heavy the subtext that's barely even subtext anymore is: there's 0 straight explanation for Felix crying more at Dimitri death than his wife, or him dying the same day as Sylvain because they can't live without each other."

"But for the Deers… You have Hilda/Marianne and Claude/Lorenz as the most popular one but while their relationship are so fascinating, when you only look only at the game, they feel too platonic? Especially compared to a Dedue/Dimitri ( like a family in private. took up a post at his grave for the most of his days. BURIED BESIDE EACHOTHER ) or a Ferdinand/Hubert ( rare A+ support, with blushing, their own little surname, Ferdinand/Edelgard support changing just to mention Ferdinand drinking coffee ). Otherwise you have Leonie/Lysithea which stop at B. You have Raphael/Ignatz where they decided to just push the relationship to make their ending all about Ignatz with his sister."

Okay, so I definitely agree with you that those things are canon queer and subtext, and that it's a shame they don't push the Raphael/Ignatz stuff and focus on Ignatz and Raph's sister (which is admittedly adorable to me).

Again, I'm aro/ace, so for me, queerness doesn't necessarily require romance as a prerequisite? Which is why I like Lorenz and Lysithea's ending, lol.

Hilda/Marianne in no way reads platonic to me, so I really disagree with you there. Hilda treats Marianne completely differently to how she treats everyone else in game. Their support chain is focused on how Hilda, who manipulates her way out of doing anything she doesn't want to, chooses to consistently over and over again do things for Marianne that she can't, and refuses to let Marianne feel bad over it. She leverages this into Marianne buying her pastries and them having a lunch date together. Their A support consists of Marianne questioning their regular dynamic of doing this and Hilda reassuring that she enjoys it so much she'd feel odd if it changed. They compliment each other to the point where Hilda starts to get a little flustered, and Hilda's even able to poke fun a little at Marianne and get Marianne to poke fun at her back. Marianne laughs at Hilda, and Hilda textually thinks it's adorable and can't even get mad at it because it's so cute. Marianne seems so genuinely happy and herself (even in negative ways!) with Hilda, and can rely on her in a way that doesn't make her feel inadequate or a burden.

I can understand as being able to view Claude/Lorenz as platonic, especially since I will never diverge from my Claude/Byleth endings, but I think they can also still be read pretty textually clear and potentially romantic. Part of this is Lorenz, who just, is very clearly gay to me? But again, part of this is the fact that a huge part of the Lorenz/Claude dynamic is them being viewed textually as equals, which is something that will and can never happen with Edelgard/Dimitri and their rival characters. Their support chain is all about getting to know and respect each other as they grow to care for one another, and while it isn't explicitly as romantic as Marianne/Hilda, I think their paired ending really speaks a lot for itself, in that Claude trusts Lorenz to be Fodlan's face of diplomacy towards Almyra. He trusts Lorenz to help him achieve his dream in the most direct way possible, something I think you can absolutely compare to his relationship with Byleth in their S-Support. Additionally about their support chain, their A-support really is about affirming to the player how close they've become, how fond they are of each other, and how neither of them can imagine the future of Fodlan without the other one in it. While there isn't a lot of direct text between Claude/Lorenz, I think there is absolutely enough subtext that you could read them romantically, especially from Lorenz's POV. The hard thing with this game is that each character needs to be able to be paired with Byleth, so they can never be textually obviously/blatantly in love with another character save for Byleth until their paired ending, and I think that absolutely holds doubly true for Lord characters, which is why I think Claude/Lorenz relies more on subtext.

I do think it's a shame that Lysithea doesn't have any A supports with women in her own house. Leonie like you mentioned is an adorable one, and I think Lysithea has a huge crush on Hilda in the ones with her, and there is definite potential in the one she has with Marianne (which in my opinion is a kinder, more gentle version of her supports with Ignatz).

I also think there's a few other support chains where there is a queer romance blossoming, they just don't get the chance to have an ending. A big one for me, personally, that I think deserved more, is Ignatz and Lorenz. I also think Leonie and Marianne's support chain was very cute, and deserved an A.

This is kind of what I was saying when I answered your last ask, I think, wherein the Deer have queer romance, but because the don't have a big blow up mlm ship (Claude is more often shipped with Dimitri + a lot of people aren't as fond of Lorenz as I think they should be lol), they kind of get sidelined as their big queer ship is WLW. And unfortunately in most fandoms, wlw ships are rarely as popular or have as much pushing force.

And also, I think, that the deer are queer without having as much romance. Their romantic pairings are far less set in store then the other two houses, I think, and part of that is because a lot of their endings read really queer platonic to me. Plus, a lot of the heavy romance lifting in the explicit text for a lot of supports tends to happen in the A/A+ region, and a several of the wlw/mlm golden deer pairings only go to B, which I think is a shame and forces them to rely more on subtext.

Additionally, because they're not the revolutionary or chivalry aligned House, a lot of their endings aren't written as...dramatically? Like I adore Felix/Sylvain to death (I have a print of them hanging next to my Claude one lol), but their childhood promise is very much the product of living in Faergus, similarly to how Hubert and Ferdinand's relationship is defined by them living in the Empire. I think because the Alliance politics are far less dramatic (or are far more dramatic in a visibly different way) the subtext for Claude and Lorenz's Romeo/Juliet for politics thing doesn't come across as huge as two characters who promised to die with each other as kids and keep it (insane I love them).

That's why in my original post I talk about loving how normal the Deer are, and I think ultimately a part of that comes from their setting: the Alliance. In my first play through, I specifically chose having my loyalties lie (in the initial meeting with the Lords) with the Alliance, because to me, someone who had no real context for the game, the Alliance was the closest thing to a democracy from what little we'd hard of each nation. Politics informs almost every aspect of the Golden Deer; sure it's played for angst and importance in the other two routes (Duscur/Sylvain's Crest Complex/Felix's problem with the chivalry system for the Blue Lions--with the latter two never being things that are textually resolved in the Kingdom's government--and Enbarr/those who Slither in the Dark for the Black Eagles), but Claude actually has to balance what other lords want in the War phase, and it's his ability to be so good at politicking that enables the Alliance to consistently remain neutral in the war. So a lot of the subtext stuff comes to fruition through the realm of politics in a way it doesn't entirely through the other two, if that makes sense. It's a huge gesture of love that Claude can trust Lorenz with his dream.

"The Deers are for me more like an actual close group of friend: their life are not going to revolve around each other like it does with the other houses, but they won't hesitate to come for that 5 years reunion to see the other. It's kinda like you say they're so normal in a good way! They tease each other but they don't hate each other in the way of a Dimitri/Felix, a Caspar/Petra, a Ferdinand/Hubert ( except for Lorenz but like, it's Lorenz ). They won't kill the other dad, but they'll sure as hell support each other like Lorenz and Ignatz or Marianne and Raphael. They might not start a revolution together but they will listen to the other even when it’s total heresy ( Leonie & Claude, such an incredible support :’) ) and help the other to reach their goal… I do agree with you it’s linked to not knowing each other before, but on that, isn’t knowing each other before more of a Lion thing than not knowing being a Deer thing? I don’t know, the BE are kind of a middle ground."

I both agree and disagree with what you've said here!

I think it's true, that in any route where you don't choose Byleth, the Deer are textually viewed much more as just close friends rather then found family, whereas I think if you chose their route they end up much closer (as I said above). I think the Black Eagles and Blue Lions have their lives, by nature, revolve around each other since they're literally all Nobles and thus part of the governning system of this world (with the exception of Dorothea). I think the Golden Deer have to make it a much more deliberate choice, and I do think it's something they do after the War in any route (assuming the majority of them have been allowed to live) because that sort of thing just forms a life long bond between people that's hard to shake without deliberate effort I can't imagine any of them truly wanting to put in.

They are normal! None of them hate each other! They don't have that sort of intensity, but they do have a lot of complexity that lends itself very well to found family. I think a big part of that complexity lends itself to the lack of killing (although I don't really think any of their parents deserve to be killed whether they've alive or dead?). The fact that Lorenz's dad has Claude's uncle killed (which when combined with Hilda, again, being a fucking Goneril is INSANE my man's two best friends are people who have reason to kill him for BOTH SIDES OF HIS ANCESTRY) and thus gets Raph's parents killed is something truly heartbreaking, and yet I think it's because there's no violence amongst each other or against the previous generation that characters like Claude (has had violence perpetuated against him for his heritage), Marianne (has had implied violence perpetuated against her for her crest), and Lysithea (has had violence perpetuated against her to get her second crest) are able to feel safe amongst the Deer. Violence is an intense choice, but I think lack of violence should also be viewed as something deliberate and chosen, esp. in the world of Three Houses. I mean, throughout Verdant Wind Claude is constantly complaining about the perpetuation of violence caused by the War! He's someone who deliberately chooses direct harm reduction. Although, to in fact speak of violence, I think it's absolutely insane that Hilda "I refuse to die for my friends" Goneril will willingly die for Claude "DO NOT DIE FOR MY SAKE FLEE PLEASE I'M BEGGING YOU RETREAT" von Riegan's sake.

I do think that the Golden Deer are the most similar to a modern queer friend group and thus would be the easiest to make a 1:1 comparison, but again the events of the game do kind of necessitate that they are found family because they go through a war together. Their group dynamics are probably the most influenced by Byleth (Dimitri and his relationships with others while "mad" of course, aside), and it's really hard to make generalizations about them because again, the fact that she is not there to facilitate these close bonds makes it a lot harder for them to be as close as they are before the war as they end up being, although even without Byleth I still think they're exceedingly close. But yes, I agree, they do not live in each other's pockets, which does not make them any less found family, but does, probably, make them healthier in modern context lol.

(As a side note about Byleth and the house leaders: I think what she visibly provides to Edelgard and Dimitri is a lot more obvious than what she provides to Claude. She helps the both of them in maintaining themselves and not loosing themselves to the burden of leadership and trauma. Claude, however, is a character who has been handling both of those things alone, and we are shown that he is capable of handling them alone without massive cracks appearing in Three Houses. Claude does not need Byleth to live, as the other two directly do. Byleth gives Claude someone consistent and trustworthy to rely on, which opens him up to being able to do it with the other members of his house far easier then he's able to otherwise.)

Anyways! I think the Golden Deer are very queer, just more subtextually so then the Black Eagles and Blue Lions. I personally view a lot of the straight endings, so to speak, as queerplatonic (again Lorenz/Lysithea and honestly Leonie/Ignatz). Romance is a pretty easy metric to view queer storytelling through, but I don't think I'd see Sylvain as any less of a queer character if he didn't have his paired ending with Felix because of how his story is written. In a similar way, I think characters like Ignatz (wanted to be a painter, but it's not what his family wants for him; yearns to be creative and is self conscious about people thinking it'll interfere in his duties and has to learn to accept himself and his true dreams) and Marianne (sees herself as a monster that other people won't accept if they knew the true her and what she's hiding) are also queer without needing to be in romances, which is why the fandom gets a lot out of them subtextually.

Acceptance, I think, can be viewed as a very queer theme, and I think it's a prominent one within the Deer.