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#ladynoir conflict
theerurishipper · 8 months
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Ladynoir and (In)Equality
For me personally, the most important thing in any relationship is that both partners are equals in that dynamic. I think that's a reasonable expectation to have. And Ladynoir did fulfill that requirement for me in the first 3 seasons. Even though Ladybug did most of the leadership stuff by making the plans and directing Chat Noir on what to do, it was understood that this was a mutual agreement. They both understood what they were good at, and their dynamic evolved accordingly. Chat Noir was content to follow her lead and Ladybug was content to make the plans and direct Chat Noir.
Season 2 saw the introduction of the inequality that shattered this balanced dynamic between the two, and quite frankly the later seasons only made it worse. It started in Syren, as we all know, where Chat Noir first expressed his displeasure at being left out of the loop when Ladybug was privy to important information that was being kept from him. Of course, Master Fu arrived to barely smooth things over before the issue was dropped for the season and never brought up again. Their dynamic remained as it was, but the cracks began to form here.
The introduction of Ladybug being the Guardian in Season 4 changed this established dynamic, obviously, and Ladybug began to give the Miraculous out to other holders. Keeping Chat Noir out of the loop began to become her MO, and she effectively replaced him with Rena Furtive in all but name. The central conflict of the season was the cracks forming in their relationship because of her new responsibilities and her secret keeping. And the resolution to this, as stated in Kuro Neko and Risk, is that even if he's no longer her partner, she still likes him best.
Now, the previous Ladynoir dynamic was one of equality, where they knew their roles and acted upon them. They were equals, and Ladybug's leadership in their pair was an informal one, one that was mutually agreed upon by them. The introduction of the Guardian role for Ladybug changes this from a mutually agreed upon dynamic to one where Ladybug is, for all intents and purposes, his boss. She is officially his leader, in the sense that if she so wished, he would be obliged to hand his Miraculous over to her. In the sense that she would be well within her rights to replace him if she so desired (which she does do). She is his superior, and he is no more important than the other temporary holders, with the sole exception that he holds his Miraculous permanently (which has now been exacerbated by the fact that all of them are permanent holders now).
Chat Noir received a demotion for no fault of his own, which he did not want, and someone else was promoted to replace him in the position he once occupied. Rena Furtive is Ladybug's special partner. Chat Noir is not Rena Furtive's equal, and he is definitely not Ladybug's equal.
This is not about a woman making more money than a man. She isn't just more successful than him, and this isn't about him being insecure about her being better than him. The problem is that Ladybug is Chat Noir's direct superior, and she has power over him. She has the power to call him when she needs him, and if not him, she'll get someone else. She has the resources to figure out his identity without him being none the wiser. She has the power to replace him if she wishes. Far be it from him to allow her to lead of his own accord, now he is obliged to follow her orders. She has the power to control what he knows and how he acts, and she has the power to keep vital information from him.
None of this is inherently "bad." But when you look at it from the context of them being on a path to a romantic relationship with each other, that's where the problems begin. Two people in a relationship should not have a dynamic where one has so much power over the other. Ladybug has so much power that she is able to slide a third teammate into their partnership and slowly push him away from his role at her side. She, quite unfortunately, can and has abused his trust because she had the resources to do so. The only opportunity he had in Season 4 to make his own choices that were not dictated by Ladybug's rules was when he quit. The final takeaway from this Ladynoir conflict is that Chat Noir is her favorite subordinate now (because Rena Furtive has replaced him), and just because they aren't equals anymore doesn't mean she doesn't want him around.
And, no, this was not corrected in Season 5. Season 5 was a return to their original dynamic, not because Ladybug and Chat Noir worked around this new shift in their relationship to find a way to overcome this new power imbalance. It's because Ladybug's power was forcibly taken away from her by a third party, and the only reason Chat Noir is her special partner again is because there is no one else left. But the end of Season 5 sees everyone come back, as permanent holders no less, and Chat Noir is once again demoted to his role as "just another holder like any other."
With the establishment of the Ladybug and the Black Cat Miraculous as two halves of a duo, equals in power, you'd expect them to be, well, equals. Me being upset about the inequality of these characters isn't with regards to screentime, or my wish for Adrien to be the main character or anything. My wish is for Adrien to be a character of his own. My wish is for the show to stop promoting such unhealthy dynamics as cute and fine. If they had simply made Adrien's role out to be the love interest, if they had just literally made him Ken who is content with just being Barbie's trophy boyfriend from the very beginning, if that was all his role has ever been and was meant to be from the start, I wouldn't be complaining so much. But the one they reduced into the role of Marinette's prize, the one over whom she has so much power, is the abuse victim whose arc is about self-actualization. And it paints a very disturbing picture. That far be it from Chat Noir to expect any kind of equal treatment from Ladybug, he's going to have put aside any discomforts or issues he has with their relationship to settle for being her favorite by virtue of nostalgia.
And it's just... bad, on a narrative level. Despite its ambitious introduction of so many plot points, the focus of this show has always been its romance. The main narrative goal of the series is for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get together. So, when your narrative hinges on these two characters getting together, and you decide to introduce such a power dynamic into the mix, saying "I still like you," isn't the fix that it's cracked up to be. If they are supposed to be the relationship around which the show is built, Chat Noir should be Ladybug's special partner, he should be her equal and not just another holder whom she likes better than everyone else. Ladynoir's relationship is directly tied to their partnership, and their dynamic as partners is the basis for any future romantic relationship between them. Introducing such an inequality between them in their partnership does affect their ability to be able to get together, and not in a good way.
This isn't a bad plot point. I like Ladybug being the Guardian, I like that they didn't just brush off the fact that there would be some changes in their dynamic. What I dislike is the way it was resolved, with Ladybug essentially saying that they would never be equals but she still likes him. A power imbalance does not a healthy relationship make. Ladynoir do not have a relationship where they are both completely aware of everything they should know. Chat Noir really cannot do anything in their dynamic, because Ladybug has all the control over everything. It's Ladybug controlling this information and Chat Noir accepting that he'll never be treated the way he wants to be treated, because he's been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter. And she never did end up correcting this, and the conflict as it is ended with him forgiving her for everything even though she never apologized, and accepting that this is how it's going to be.
And it's not good. This isn't the Ladynoir I signed up for, honestly. I signed up for the Ladybug who accepted Chat Noir unconditionally and the Chat Noir who supported Ladybug through everything. I did not sign up for Ladybug trying to pull a Gabe and Chat Noir only being her emotional support who suppresses his own needs for her. The Ladynoir conflict and its less than satisfying resolution caused irreparable damage to the Ladynoir dynamic (it's irreparable because the writers don't see a problem with it and so they'll never fix it), and this has only continued into Season 5, which said "why fix it when I can make it worse."
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iwasbored777 · 2 years
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Just as I promised, a sugar analysis on Ladybug side of Marinette's character:
Now I know that after Strikeback there are some of you saying that she is a bad guardian and all but I want to break it in pieces starting from Marinette's role as Ladybug. Is she really as bad as you say she is?
Is Marinette a bad Ladybug?
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Is that even a question?! This is the girl who thought she was not good enough until the girl she just met was in danger and this girl just swooped in and saved her. And after that the girl who bullied her for years was also in a life or death situation and Marinette saved her a$$ because she put her emotions behind. Other person's life was her priority regardless of who that was - the girl who was nice to her or the girl who wasn't. This is the girl who didn't take credit for the gift she gave to her crush because he would be crushed if he found out his father didn't give him a birthday gift that year. This is the girl who ALWAYS has to be everywhere and help everyone and do everything for everyone because she wants to. She is selfless and brave and generous.
This is also the girl who always no matter what happens can figure out what her lucky charm is for. Or she used it properly. I know I already talked about episodes when she calculates time and space (Backwarder, Timetagger), or episodes where she breaks the plot with her big brain (The Night Owl, Optigami), or when she unified every miraculous in Kwamibuster and pretend to be two people at the same time, but we don't give her enough credit for Strikeback. Because everyone is talking about "Ladybug failed oh no" but can we talk about how she recruit Adrien because he was presumably the only one who didn't have a tattoo (akuma) on his neck and she knew choosing someone like that would be safe AND she was careful not to cause a time paradox?! Even me, who was a hardcore Doctor Who, The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow fan, always forget how time paradox works.
Here's the deal: She didn't go back in time to prevent the akumatization, she went back in time to figure out what the akumatized object is. Because if she caught the akuma in the past that same akuma would not exist in present day and she wouldn't have had the reason to go back in time so she wouldn't. And that's how time paradox works.
But like she knew it! She did it! She travelled through time once with Bunnyx and she immediately knew what to do the second time all by herself. I mean
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!!! She's so clever and she thinks everything till the last detail like c'mon!
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This also the girl who doesn't go like "I'm right you're wrong" when she knows she's not right, when she does something wrong, she will admit it, she will apologise. Those are not common traits. She KNEW Chloé is not a saint, she still decided to help her, she KNEW both her and Kagami are wrong, she stepped back, she KNEW both Lila and her were wrong, she offered Lila peace. That's not what everyone else would do. I'm talking only about Miraculous Ladybug, I'm talking about people. She's only a kid and she's alright better than at least 90% of adults in that show and about 2/3 people I know. If she was a bad person she wouldn't be able to be good Ladybug but she is the best Ladybug. We already had two other characters who tired to use her miraculous and they couldn't be as good as her. Marinette is the best and the only Ladybug. The og Ladybug of her generation.
She got the whole Paris to cheer for her when she messed up! She is THAT powerful.
Is Marinette a bad guardian?
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From what can be seen in this picture clearly - and from this scene if you know the context - kwamis adore her. On her first day of being the guardian, Marinette was learning about kwamis and powers and she was worried if kwamis don't have enough space in the box so she let them fly around in her room. It's risky if someone sees them, but it's good for kwamis. She also put paper on her window so no would see kwamis when they walk pass her house. As someone a pet owner, they can be REALLY annoying when you're trying to sleep and if I had kwamis too I would lock them up while I sleep but she let them be free. Probably because she doesn't sleep a lot anyway. She brings kwamis different snacks and she even put the phone in the miracle box for emergencies! That is good. And I know I said this MILION times but THE HANDMADE SAFE WITH A LOCK!!! Gurl, I'm older than you but you're the one who taught me a lot of great things! Everyone can be a guardian but not everyone can be a good guardian. Marinette really cares about kwamis. She makes them tiny accessories...
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This is cute af! 😍😍😍
She also took kwamis to see Fu again, because they asked her to. She helped Tikki with her chocolate cravings, something Tikki was ashamed of, and she shouldn't because that's relatable. I too go chocolate crazy sometimes. Not as crazy as her but a lot of us loves chocolate. And Marinette didn't blame her for it or lectured her, she offered her help and support. No one can say that Marinette treats kwamis badly and that's something that's really important for the role of the guardian. And all this is more than what Fu was doing for these little ones.
When Marinette revealed her identity to another miraculous holder she did it a) because she was desperate, b) because she knew she can trust Alya and c) because revealing her identity to Chat Noir or anyone who knows Chat's identity already would mean that once this person is akumatized, Hawk Moth will find out both of their identities in the same time. Marinette knew Hawk Moth knows Alya's identity already so she and Alya had a deal for Alya to go undercover so that not only Hawk Moth but also no one except for Ladybug would find out. That was responsible. You can't say it's not.
And she gave every superhero a miraculous after she knew them for a long time and knew she can trust them, she also asked them if they want to. She gave them a choice. Fu didn't do any of this.
She has a lot of potential but this is too early and she's too young. And it's not her fault that it's too early. She's in the wrong place at the wrong time and she needed more training and more studying and more practice and more experience as a hero first before she took the role of the guardian. Of course, for that, look at the man who gave her that responsibility and taught her that her life needs to depend on it, not her. She's trying.
Is Ladybug treating Chat Noir badly?
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I put this here because Ladynoir dynamic is one of major things for Ladybug's autobiography and I got T-I-R-E-D of this salt take! And the reason for that is lame. "sHe DoEsN't NoTiCe He Is SaD" even this sentence is incorrect! She noticed, she asked him, and every time she asked he said everything is alright. She doesn't want to push and she doesn't read minds. She is doing her part of the job and only when she can and only when he lets her she's going to help him. And btw whenever she rejected his feelings it's because she doesn't feel the same way. Even in Glaciator 2 when she threw him - yes it was harsh, I love him too, I don't like to see him hurt - but do you're remember the episode Félix? When she punched Félix BEFORE she figured out it's not Adrien, when he tried to kiss her forcefully. She's gonna react like this to ANYONE when they want to kiss her without her consent, that's the line you should not cross not just Marinette, but with every person ever. That Glaciator 2 scene was annoying me to death bc people tell me my favourite character is abuser. Because she demands personal space, right? And don't get me started on "she's gaslighting Chat Noir" cuz do you even understand what "gaslighting" means?
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You do realize that Ladybug not telling Chat Noir about Rena Rouge is not the same as Ladybug emotionally abusing him and manipulating him?
Ladybug was protecting Rena and herself here too. If she told Chat and he got akumatized, her biggest nightmare, remember? Remember when she got traumatised for life?
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If Chat knew and got akumatized, he would've told Hawk Moth about Rena and Rena knows who Ladybug is so Ladybug would be toast and so will the whole world. I hope this clears it up.
And Kuro Neko? Chat Noir didn't show up and she doesn't know why, an episode earlier she argued with Su-Han that Chat Noir is reliable, and then Chat Noir disappeared after one argument. Same with NY special. What do you mean "Ladybug should've been nicer cuz he has abandonment issues". A) how is she supposed to know that and b) she has emotions and she should react. If someone didn't listen to her, if they made a deal and he didn't follow it, if it was important and it was, she should be angry. It doesn't matter who that is. Why do you always want her to adjust to everyone's childhood trauma, why is it never "this character should be nicer to Marinette as well, she's not the only one who needs to change, she deserves people to treat her better too". And since when do the same people who say "they should be equal" want Ladynoir dynamic to be only beneficial to one of them? Because that's not Ladynoir is about! We should totally just stab salters!
(I have to explain the last part is the Mean Girls reference for those who didn't get it because I got accused of slander against Marinette salters for saying it so just in case).
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wield-the-mighty-pen · 9 months
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Just remember that in every even season of Miraculous, there has been a Ladynoir conflict of some kind.
Season 2 had one because Ladybug was keeping the guardian and the knowledge of the Miraculous a secret. Season 4 had one because Ladybug was keeping secrets pertaining to her role as guardian and her confiding in Alya. 
Season 6 is coming, and there just happens to be a whole lot of information that Ladybug is not sharing with Chat Noir...
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Zull memes: La página de Facebook obsesionada con Marinette Dupain-Cheng.
Me sigue sorprendiendo lo mucho que la odian. Sobre todo en grupos de Facebook en español. yo entendería que ya, les cayera mal, está bien. Pero literalmente hay una página de Facebook llamada Zull memes, que se dedica a tiempo completo a tirar hate.
Antes me molestaba, pero a veces decían cosas ciertas. Sin embrago, de un momento a otro, empezaron a exagerar cosas, cambiando guiones solo para "Menospreciar" al personaje.
Llegando al punto de compararla con Amber Heard, cuando estaba el tema del juicio de Jonny Depp, la misma Amber que se cagó en la cama de su novio. ¿Sí se dan cuenta que no es normal?
Y la gente puede decir, bueno, son solo memes. Pero no, tienen detrás a una bola de fans tóxicos, que menosprecian y encasillan a cualquier fan de Marinette.
Además, desinforman, por culpa de la influencia que tiene en la gente los memes, muchos hasta creen los guiones cambiados que a veces ponen.
Recientemente otra página publicó cosas similares a lo que se burlaba Zull memes, desde las cosas más normales, hasta las más exagerada. Pero en contra de Chloe, la adorada y justificada de la página. Y se ardieron sus seguidores.
Eso demuestra que son iguales de inmaduros que a los fans que tanto critican. Realmente Miraculous no debió volver tan conocida. Atrajeron a un montón de fans tóxicas e inmaduras.
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gurinderstehara · 4 months
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Ladynoir ramble
After falling down the analyze to salt pipe line i tried to find why i hated both forgiveness anger and leaving or blaming Chat in the ladynoir conflict. Because it's a cycle of the same 5 things Ladybug lies to Chat Chat finds out Angst on both sides Revelations that both know about said lie Chat forgives Ladybug as they sit at a roof top it's the same thing again and again with each lie hidden better and more stacked on top every time. I realized i don't want hate or rage and am tired of the despair and surprise Chat feels ... what i want is the Thor Ragnorok scene between Thor and Loki Ladybug either caught or exposed or confessing the lies / manipulation Chat unsuprised: Ya i figured it was like that Ladybug : confused Chat calmly explaining that they just go in circle and she's become predictable : well i got go things to do {a date with Marinette] see ya Ladybug just stunned Cause as long as Ladybug wont change and Chat is surprised by this it's just boring also i think S5 finale killed 95% of my care for this show
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gameguy20100 · 1 year
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🔥LadyNoir's "conflict" in S4
It was a failure to communicate.
Demonising, either of them, is stupid.
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sunfoxfic · 2 years
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I have thoughts on anger as an emotion bc as someone who really struggles with holding too tight on anger I think that it's like. It's worth noting that no emotion is good or bad, you know? Emotions drive our behavior and our behavior drives our emotions and those things become cyclical really quickly if you don't watch it, and that's so incredibly true of anger.
"Anger isn't an inherently bad emotion" means that like, you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling angry, and that anger can be a productive emotion. Any emotion can be a productive emotion! Especially when you're just surviving, and anger is what motivates you to make your life better.
But I lived trapped in my anger for SO LONG. I wasn't doing anything productive with it because there was nothing productive to be done with it. I was angry because I saw things all the time that made me angry, and I saw things all the time that made me angry because I was angry. I think the internet encourages this sort of thinking.
And this was in direct response to suppressing my anger, is the thing. I lived feeling trapped in my situation so I bit down the bad feelings because they wouldn't change anything, even when things changed and I did gain control of my situation. And I had to retrain myself, to feel anger. Because I had forgotten how. And I couldn't escape my anger.
So.... I don't know. I think S4 brought up a lot of opinions about Adrien and how he needs to assert himself, but I don't like it when people say that he needs to be angry, especially that he needs to be angry at Ladybug. Because anger is a good emotion when it's a productive emotion, but it wouldn't be productive for Chat to be angry at Ladybug. Yes, he needs to learn to assert himself, but anger isn't the only way.
And more to the point, I guess it strikes close to home. I see myself in the way Adrien cannot be angry because it wouldn't fix anything but it would make him miserable, so why bother? And I don't want him to be trapped in his anger, the way I was mine.
I don't think people realize how messy emotions are. He does need to be angry but I don't think the trial run of anger should be at Ladybug. I don't think he should be angry at Ladybug, especially because of his own culpability in their conflict -- how can he be angry at her for never noticing how he felt, when he took opportunities to lie to her? And there are other issues, obviously, other things he can be mad at. But I guess..... Anger at Ladybug isn't gonna fix anything, is my point. And I don't like the assertation that Adrien "needs" to be angry, when that can so easily go wrong, too.
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flightfoot · 2 years
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Many people said they want ladynoir to become equal again and yes, I want it too. But can they be equal again? Ladybug position as guardian itself is already throw the balance and the only way they can be equal I can think of is if ladybug willing to share guardianship, which she choose Alya instead of chat. So I dont know, can ladynoir be in equal footing again? What is considered equal for ladynoir dynamic?
I don't know whether there's a way for them to be "equal", necessarily, while Ladybug's Guardian and has that position of authority, which is one reason I rooted for Alya to become Guardian (that and Alya would be good at it and deserves nice things.)
However, it can at least get back to a dynamic where Chat could reasonably be considered her partner, even if he's still in a support role, and not just her subordinate, which is what happened in Season 4. I think that would involve:
Involving Chat in major decisions regarding the Miraculous and team-building. I don't expect her to necessarily run every decision by him, but unless she has a good reason for not consulting him about it, I'd want her to at least seek his input.
Be open, honest, and transparent about anything she can be, and tell him when she does need to conceal something and for what reason, unless telling him even that much would be dangerous e.g. would endanger her identity.
If the decision, if the action, is specifically about Chat, give him the information and freedom to decide what to do about his own circumstances, even if she may not agree with his decision. Show him the level of respect and trust that he has for her.
TLDR: Keep Chat in the loop about everything she can, tell him when and why she can't if that's too dangerous, and give him the space and freedom to make meaningful decisions.
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lady-de-mon-coeur · 2 years
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Chapters: 2/2 Fandom: Miraculous Ladybug Rating: General Audiences Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Adrien Agreste | Chat Noir/Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug, Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug & Tikki, Adrien Agreste | Chat Noir & Plagg Characters: Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug, Adrien Agreste | Chat Noir, Plagg (Miraculous Ladybug), Tikki (Miraculous Ladybug) Additional Tags: Communication, Forgiveness, Fluff, Hurt/Comfort, Angst, Getting Together, Idiots in Love, Adrien Agreste | Chat Noir Identity Reveal, Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug Identity Reveal, Plagg Cares (Miraculous Ladybug), Hurt Adrien Agreste | Chat Noir, Everyone Needs A Hug, They love each other so much, Mistakes are addressed and forgiven, Season/Series 04 Spoilers Summary:
“Plagg, I renounce you.”
Ladybug doesn’t move. She can’t move. To move would mean acknowledging what just happened, and if she doesn’t acknowledge it, then it’s not real.
Finally, she turns around. There’s no one waiting for her there. No wink of green eyes and a shit-eating grin coupled with finger guns as Chat Noir teases, “Had you for a second there, didn’t I, Bugaboo?” (And she’d be furious at him for a joke like that, but she’d hug him anyway, because at least it’s a joke.)
This isn’t a joke.
The Ring of the Black Cat sits abandoned, and Chat Noir is gone.
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theerurishipper · 8 months
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This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.
Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.
And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.
This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.
And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.
But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.
I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.
And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.
Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.
Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.
I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.
If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.
It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.
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iwasbored777 · 1 year
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How do these writers sleep at night?
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Solo se quejan del "Guionazo" cuando afecta a otros personajes que no son Marinette, peri si se trata de ella, mágicamente ella tiene control de sus acciones. OMG.
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buggachat · 9 months
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lovesquare keeping secrets from each other conflict PART TWO LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO
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chatonnoir · 1 year
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everyone being all ecstatic about the marichat kiss meanwhile i’ve been going through the stages of grief because the end of the episode seems to have effectively marked the end of both romantic ladynoir and marichat and taken Chat Noir off the table as a romantic option for Marinette and seems to be tipping things in the adrienette direction and pre-reveal couple adrienette + platonic ladynoir is exactly the outcome i didn’t want
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gameguy20100 · 2 years
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Unpopular opinion.
Adrien made the right choice by having Ladybugs back in the finale.
Sure his feelings of being left out were valid.
But what would getting mad accomplish?
Sometimes you need to put your feelings aside, and be there for the one you love. Especially if they are suffering from something as serious as a panic attack.
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friendfromdsmp · 10 months
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Is it only my impression, or in Miraculous Chat Noir is allowed to critizice Ladybug, but Ladybug is not allowed to criticize Chat Noir?
I completely agree and I think a big part of that comes down to the way the way the writers view Marinette and Adrien respectively; Marinette is supposed to learn a lesson in every episode and as she’s always been the one actively trying to advance the love square before the writers are ready for that, she has to fail often and make a lot of mistakes that are often played for comedy by the writers and the characters around her (before we’re suddenly told we’re now making fun of her trauma which is bad but I digress) whereas Adrien has always been considered by the writers to be ‘perfect’ and ‘he’s not flawed - the world is’, with even the characters in-universe referring to Adrien as ‘perfection personified’ and such
As a consequence, Marinette is often portrayed as in the wrong, even when the universe bends over backwards to make it so, whereas Adrien can’t be criticised and thus becomes a bit of a stagnant character because perfection doesn’t allow room to grow
I think that the LadyNoir dynamic does allow for playful criticism between the pair, granting us Ladybug banter such as “I’m not interested in your poetry, but I do find your foolishness incredibly powerful!”, “Because [the Ladybug Miraculous] requires a sense of responsibility~?”, “I had it under control *smacks Chat’s head* but thanks”, etc etc
But beyond the obviously playful banter that Chat returns in spades constantly, there’s definitely a theme of Chat Noir consistently mucking about in battle, often leading to either himself or someone else getting incapacitated or some other reckless and/or generally unhelpful issue caused, Ladybug getting annoyed at him and Chat giving some retort to poke fun at or pacify her rather than addressing the issue at hand. I mean, the start of Reflekdoll is a perfect example; Ladybug is calling Chat Noir out on pulling a prank in the middle of battle that almost caused her Lucky Charm to fail, with Chat Noir simply joking around and calling her no fun and a stick in the mud. I get that he’s not gonna be the most responsible and focused constantly, neither of them are, they’re fourteen. But there’s a difference between a quick pun while fighting and a prank on your partner while she’s already running on less than five minutes before she transforms back, trying to focus on a very serious problem and the prank being enough to put their entire mission in jeopardy. Play about and joke around all you want, we don’t care if you screw around on the job, but make sure you don’t actively work against said job while you do it!
And then afterwards the pair have a bit of a personality swap as well now that they swap Miraculous, with Adrien as Mister Bug being forced to step up since he now has the Miraculous that, in the nicest way possible, requires hard work and effort to use, whereas Marinette as Lady Noire is now freed from that burden and can use the comparatively simplistic power of just tapping whatever she wants to destroy and watching it happen, the most effort she has to put in with that is simply getting close enough to the desired object in order to touch it without touching anything else between activating her power and using it. So of course Mister Bug, used to slacking off and playing about, is a little overwhelmed in a situation where he’s the strategist rather than the support while Lady Noire, still a little annoyed by their earlier discussion, was happy to actively reverse the roles, taking time to play about and make quips at Mister Bug’s expense. Even making a joke that wearing the Black Cat suit/being in Chat’s role is “a lot lighter on the shoulders”, aka making a jab at Chat never having a sense of responsibility and thus the ‘weight being lifted off her shoulders’ now that she’s taking over his end of the load
The fan reactions to this episode were very telling; a lot of people were saying that Lady Noire was being rude and unhelpful and cruel to Mister Bug, which is hilarious since they actively, verbally clarified multiple times in the episode that both heroes were starting to act like each other now that the roles were reversed; Lady Noire was now “wearing the clown costume” and no longer a stick in the mud like Chat Noir complained about while Mister Bug “doesn’t have a sense of humour” and is no longer playing around and not taking things seriously mid-battle like Ladybug complained about
If they were simply acting like each other, why was Lady Noire considered rude and unhelpful for joking around mid-battle whereas Chat Noir is praised for being funny and keeping Ladybug from burning herself out by providing a supposed outlet to stress? If you complain about one, you have to complain about the other, especially since Lady Noire was still helping; she kept explaining how the Lucky Charm worked even when Mister Bug ignored her to prove he knew how to do this better than an experienced, specifically-selected wielder, she helped him think through the Lucky Charm by placing herself in Mister Bug’s shoes and attempting to adapt to his own thought process rather than hers, she repeatedly defended him from attacks while he was struggling to work out the mirror and yo-yo, etc. For all her sarcasm and salty quips, there was never a point where she left Mister Bug high and dry to fend for himself or sat by watching and flirting leisurely while he did all the work
I know I’ve focused a lot on Reflekdoll here since this is the most blatant example of the issue (being that Ladybug was in the right to criticise Chat for risking the fight over a prank while Mister Bug and some viewers criticising Lady Noire for being unhelpful was not only uncalled for but incorrect) but there are certainly many other examples I can think of in which MariBug is blamed for AdriChat’s actions or AdriChat criticises MariBug without good reason or MariBug is seen as rude or otherwise in the wrong for criticising AdriChat despite having legitimate grievances or not having all the info on a situation in which said info was impossible for her to know and/or actively kept from her. Season 4 is a goldmine for this but I know I always make incredibly long rambling posts so I’ll cut things short here, if the long ramble is what people are after feel free to ask for one
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