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magicmastered · 5 years

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What Universe does Thor: Ragnarok Take Place In? Part One

Let’s be clear. If you like Thor: Ragnarok, or don’t want to see criticism of it, I suggest that you: a) don’t read this, b) filter your tags, c) block me, or d) some combination of the above. Now that we have that out of the way....

A cinematic universe (like the MCU) is a set of movies that all take place in the same fictional universe and share continuity with each other. This means that they share characters, settings, and timelines with other movies in that cinematic universe. To give a recurring character in a cinematic universe contradictory timelines and/or personality traits is to violate the entire point of having a cinematic universe.

Thor: Ragnarok is labeled and marketed as an MCU film. Certainly it shares some settings with other MCU movies, and some characters have the same names and faces. However, that’s as far as it goes. Several characters that T:R shares with other MCU films have noticeably altered personalities, inexplicable within the fictional universe. Two even have different and contradictory backstories. Continuity is destroyed.

Allow me to explain.

I’ll start with the backstories. Thor and Loki’s specifically, beginning from the start of the movies.

According to the interviews and commentary from Thor (2011) and a book about the movie (I believe it’s called Thor: Heroes and Villains), Loki has always tried to be a good son and brother to Odin and Thor respectively. He usually talks Thor out of bad situations. Loki got a rough deal compared to Thor, who didn’t know what ‘no’ meant. As shown in the movie and deleted scenes, criminal activity is something new to him (“Loki’s always been one for mischief, but this is something else entirely”). He prefers to negotiate rather than fight (he talked to Laufey before Thor could make things violent, and would’ve gotten everyone out safely if not for Thor’s temper and bloodlust), and though he’s a skilled fighter, he doesn’t enjoy it. Loki looks out for Thor and co. (he saves Fandral and Sif during the Jotunheim fight, and he references a battle where he got them all to safety by hiding them). He thinks ahead to make sure things work out safely (he tells a guard to tell Odin that they were going to Jotunheim). As a child, he was quiet, curious, and insecure. Odin raised him and Thor to believe that both of them had a chance for the throne, but only one of them would get it—implicitly, whichever of them was ‘worthier’.

The next part of the timeline review will focus more on Loki, considering that it’s more relevant to the topic. I’ll keep motives listed with actions where they fit, seeing as they’re a major issue (as I’ll expand upon later).

(I’m leaving out details of the interrupted coronation because I plan to write a meta on the subject at a later date.) The Jotuns were let into the weapons vault to interrupt Thor’s coronation; his reaction was meant to show (as it did) whether or not he was ready to rule. Loki, when he told the guard to fetch Odin, had no idea that Thor would get banished; he looked shocked and told Sif and the Warriors Three as much.

Upon receiving a major hint that he’s a Jotun, a race Odin raised him to hate and fear, Loki confronts Odin about it in the weapons’ vault. Odin falls into the Odinsleep. Frigga gives Loki the throne, since he’s next in line (this is how succession works, for those who don’t know—king, crown prince, any younger princes). Loki, having had his identity, already mangled self-worth, and entire life shaken to the core, decides to use this power to prove to Odin that he’s a worthy son. This means he needs Thor out of the way, so he tells Thor that Odin’s dead and his banishment is permanent to ensure that he doesn’t try to return. It means he needs to control everything happening on Asgard to make sure whatever else he does goes as planned, so he orders Heimdall to let no one through the Bifrost and tells Sif and the W3 to stay put. It also means he has to do something drastic that Odin can’t not notice. Maybe something to do with ending the war that Odin was so angry about. So Loki goes to Jotunheim and invites Laufey to come to Asgard with a few guards to ‘kill Odin’, intending to kill the Jotun king—his blood father—to save Odin’s life. The ‘assassination attempt’ will provide him with the solid reason he needs to erase any doubt that he’s really Asgardian, and to end the war as Odin’s family has been venerated for ending wars for the last couple generations. Genocide. He can’t be a Jotun if there aren’t any Jotuns left.

(Side note: I realize that genocide is wrong. That’s not the point. The point is that Loki doesn’t, since everyone he’s been taught to look up to has either done it or attempted it; it’s literally part of the culture he grew up in. I’m not excusing him for it, I’m explaining him.)

But then Heimdall, Sif, and the W3 commit treason. Now he’s got problems. He takes care of Heimdall himself (notably Heimdall struck first), but Sif and the W3 are on Earth already, where Thor is. They tell Thor that Loki’s betrayed them. Thor’s shocked; it’s unlike Loki. Loki panics and sends the Destroyer to stop them before they can bring Thor back. Thor assumes that the Destroyer’s there for him. Loki, now angry as well, has the Destroyer backhand him in frustration (it’s arguable whether or not he meant the blow to be deadly). Well, he’s probably kept them on Earth for now, but he has to hurry things up. He brings Laufey over and kills him just as he’s about to kill Odin. But then Thor shows up and he’s angry. Loki blasts Thor through a wall to buy himself from time and initiates genocide-by-Bifrost. Thor comes back and tries to stop him, despite the fact that he was trying to get the same result three days earlier. Loki, visibly breaking down, can’t stop now—he’s desperate, he’s rapidly lost his mind, and his brother is trying to stop him from doing the one thing he thinks will finally make Odin acknowledge him. So he fights Thor. Thor eventually hits the Bifrost hard enough to break it. Odin wakes up and catches them both before they hit the black-hole-looking thing the Bifrost made. Loki pleads for his approval; Odin rejects him. Loki gives up and commits suicide.

Unfortunately for him, he has absurdly terrible luck, so he not only survives falling into the black hole-looking thing, but falls through who-knows-how much space after it and proceeds to land where Thanos finds him. Since he shows up with what looks like burn marks in a deleted scene, appears in his next movie with visible signs of heatstroke, and the interview quotes describing his experience go like...

“...it was like the worst place imaginable...”

“[he had]...several brushes with death...”

“...was like being captured in a terrorist cell...”

“Anything that would’ve happened to a runaway child who ran into the wrong people, happened to him.” (or something like this. I don’t remember the exact quote, but it’s to this general effect.)

“Harrowing, and scarring for life...”

...he has a really bad time. Considering that Thanos has a thing for torture (check out GOTG 1 and 2 and Infinity War), it’s pretty safe to assume that’s what happened. It certainly explains how Loki goes from wanting to die to claiming to want to rule Earth. And he’s in for worse if he doesn’t deliver up the Tesseract (“You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain”). Hence, Avengers (2012).

Odin becomes relevant for a moment here. Fast-forward to Loki’s trial. Odin condemns Loki far more harshly than he did Thor for almost the same crimes.

Fast-forward to the Second Battle of Svartalfheim in Thor: The Dark World. Kursed’s beating Thor into the ground. Loki’s just finished off the other Dark Elves who were still there. He sees that Thor’s in trouble, grabs a Dark Elf blade, and stabs Kursed all the way through the back and chest with it. (I’m not sure if he grabbed the implosion weapon from another Dark Elf or if it was just hanging on Kursed’s belt.) Kursed turns around and impales him (note the solid body) on the end of the blade. Loki activates the implosion device, when he can’t know that Kursed will toss him away before it goes off. Thor cradles his (solid!) body, and Loki seemingly dies.

Later, Loki heals to some degree. What now? If he goes back to Asgard with Thor, Odin will either have him executed or throw him back in solitary confinement for the rest of his life. Odin will punish Thor and co. severely as well. If Loki doesn’t go back to Asgard at all, he could run into Thanos. That means he has to go back to Asgard, but he also needs Odin out of the way. So he returns to Asgard in the form of a guard and overpowers Odin. Thor thinks he’s dead. If he lets Thor spread the word, Thanos will stop looking for him. Thor’s handled his death before. He allows Thor to keep thinking that he died honorably.

Now. Thor: Ragnarok.

According to Thor: Ragnarok, Loki’s been trying to kill Thor for his entire life. He’s been stabbing Thor for no reason since he was eight. Thor patiently puts up with this. Odin does nothing about it. Loki betrays Thor constantly. Loki completely faked his death. The only reason Loki’s ever had for doing things is that he’s a trickster and can’t help himself.

What?!

How can Loki have tried to kill Thor for his whole life when he’s always tried to be a good son and brother?

How can Loki stab Thor for no reason while being the quiet, reasonable one who doesn’t like fighting?

How could Thor patiently put up with Loki’s assaults when he’s always been hotheaded and violent?

How could Odin ignore Loki stabbing Thor all the time when he favors Thor and doesn’t let Loki get away with anything?

How could Loki betray Thor constantly when his betrayal in Thor (2011) clearly comes as a massive shock to Thor?

How could Loki have completely faked his death when the solidity of the body that Kursed grabbed and that Thor held make it impossible for the death to have been an illusion?

How could his only reason for doing things be that he’s “a trickster” and “can’t help himself” when his reasons, as stated above, range from wanting to prove himself to Odin (killing Laufey; attempted genocide on Jotunheim), keeping Thor out of the way (lying about Odin’s death), avoiding torture (Avengers (2012)), utter desolation (suicide attempt), delivering punishment for treason (freezing Heimdall, sending the Destroyer), and protecting himself and Thor and co. (taking out Odin and keeping his survival secret)?

Both statements in each set cannot simultaneously be true.

Thor: Ragnarok contradicts the prior MCU. There is no continuity.

With no continuity, there can be no cinematic universe.

@lucianalight? You said you were interested?

#anti ragnarok #mcu loki #loki meta #marvel #mcu thor #mcu odin #loki in avengers #whew!#I’ve been working on this for a few days #long post #this is my fifth time trying to get this all down #what universe does ragnarok take place in?#my post #my posts

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todokori-kun · 7 years

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(Ugh, sorry for this late reply! OTL I’ve been busy and whenever I sat down to try and write this message it would be bedtime before I’d even gotten halfway through)

If we want him to be happy the best, most plausible and canon-compliant choice is Saiko…yet Ishida’s been ignoring her ever since she told Urie she loves him ;-; #IshidaY

Correction: Ishida (like Shuu and Uta) is a picky eater. He’ll only eat human flesh that’s been steadily stewing in misery for at least a year, and the bitterest, saltiest tears are all he ever drinks.

Ishida’s eating habits being similar to Uta’s makes sense though, since he actually said he gave Uta some of his hobbies lol

Just stop hurting us, please…Ishida needs to redeem himself with Hide’s return as quickly as possible. Either that or something bad needs to happen to Furuta (if Rize somehow breaks free and eats him I’m sure at least half of the fandom would realize that they can, in fact, be satisfied).

Hmm, I was fine with Re up until this arc. Touken feels forced, shippy fluff and Mutsuki drama is getting in the way of the ACTUAL plot (even with all his trolling skills, Ishida cannot convince me that sex scenes and love triangles/squares are more important than how the Q squad is dealing with their trauma from the last battle, what Juuzou, Urie and other investigators are going to do now that they suspect Furuta is lying, how the rest of Goat is doing, what Uta and the Clowns are up to, and Furuta finding a way to, oh, I don’t know, BRING BACK THE FREAKING DEAD). It’s like Ishida has a really interesting plot in there somewhere, but he’s buried it beneath the pointless, badly timed romance.

As for Mutsuki, I used to be a bit 'meh' about them (I used to like them, and then I didn’t mind their backstory/the treatment they got at Torso’s hands simply because I got spoiled and knew it was coming from the very beginning, plus the parellels with Kaneki had me thinking they’d get a similar interesting development) but I’m starting to become more and more indifferent towards them because they just feel really flat now- a basic murder-bot, a copy of characters like Yuno Gasai. Maybe I’d sympathize with them more if their love for Sasaki/Kaneki felt a bit more genuine, but as it is, it seems lacking. It feels like we’re viewing Mutsuki from an outsider’s POV; not much about their actual feelings or thought process about the entire situation, just a bunch of crazy, yandere moments with a few

That AU…make it canon, Ishida. (jk, but seriously). I’m one of those people who won’t complain no matter how much the creators pile on the angst as long as it’s plausible angst (I’m afraid I’m a bit of a masochist when it comes to fandoms…) but I like to think of my favorite characters being happy for once ;-;

0/////0 TYSM ;-; You’re so supportive and sweet and just asdfj;lk (it’s not easy to reduce me to keyboard-smashing but I have a lot of feelings right now) <333 I’m still scared because there are two ways this could go (either I somehow get over my fear and do ok, which would probably be really good for the anxiety, or I just freeze the second I step onto the stage…which would probably make things worse) HOWEVER, for Queen Luna I shall do my best !!!! <33333 :D

But wait a sec…‘King’…

Plot Twist: I am the real One-eyed King

Also

‘Urie & Tumblr(Evans): A short story’

-Urie pretends not know what tumblr is

-Only he totally does

-It’s an addictive hole of darkness

-And Luna spends way too much time on it for his liking

-Ok, so it’s not tumblr he’s worried about, really

-It’s this guy called Evans that Luna keeps talking to

-And no, he did not just assume this person’s gender, he (ACCIDENTALLY) saw one of Luna’s messages to them calling them a ‘king’

-She never calls HIM stuff like that there’s only that stupid nickname ‘Oreo Cookie’

-Jealousy?

-N O

-That’s for the common folk like Sasaki

-Look, he’s just worried about his s/o ok

-Then one day he brings it up

-'The 'King’ thing was an inside joke of sorts’

-'Evans is a heterosexual female’

-R.I.P Urie, who must now admit that he was indeed jealous

(super awkward crack that suddenly popped into my head

And aww, I’m really so glad you enjoy the HCs ^^)

Me + a person with Shuu’s personality would be pretty hilarious if we managed to get along well. Since at first sight, I appear like this really quite and polite person who’s way too nice for their own good (sort of like an even more introverted and awkward version of Kuroneki), but with people I’m really close with I suddenly turn into Haise with all of his cringe-worthy moments- plus a little bit of dry humor and sarcasm.

Haven’t got the chance to listen to all of those yet but what little I’ve heard sounds lovely! The first three and Soldier Game are my favorites, I think :)

Give it a few weeks and I’ll probably be joining you in Idol hell…

Loki’s hair is actually as long/maybe longer than Thor’s in later movies tho XD but I’m glad Thor’s getting some love! A lot of fans just characterize him as this big blonde idiot who has no clue what he’s doing, when in fact he’s grown quite a bit since the first Thor movie, where he was a reckless, hot-blooded, proud and arrogant person who really did have no clue what he was doing…sort of like musical-verse Hamilton minus his book smart nature and power of speech (isn’t that a terrifying thought?). Never knowing when to shut up and back down, which is coincidentally one of the things that damaged his relationship with Loki- who is his opposite in almost everything.

Without spoiling too much, let’s just say:

Thor is the extrovert, Loki is the introvert. Thor relies mostly on his raw physical power to get the job done (though he’s much more diplomatic now than he was in his first movie), Loki’s power lies in his words (he IS the god of lies after all) and his cunning. Thor can sometimes be a bit thick about the emotions of those around him, Loki reads people like open books and manipulates them like puppets on a string. No matter how much Thor grows up he’ll still have a bit of his old hot-tempered, non-stop personality, while Loki usually prefers to wait for it until he’s sure of the situation.

Unfortunately, Asgard (Thor and Loki’s 'home’- though Loki doesn’t consider Asgard his home anymore) values courageous warriors over quiet scholars and sorcerers like Loki. They praise honesty and boldness; Loki’s lies and illusions make them uneasy and they see him as a coward.

Despite being a prince, Loki has spent almost his whole life being identified as simply 'Thor’s brother’. People tolerate him because he’s a prince and Thor’s Brother, 'friends’ hang out with him because he’s Thor’s Brother, few openly show that they dislike him becuase he’s Thor’s Brother. Heck, when he lands on earth during the first Avengers movie, humans immediately identify him as none other than Thor’s Brother. He’s spent his entire life in Thor’s shadow.

It’s a very Burr-Hamilton relationship, and you can’t really blame Loki for wanting to be in the room where it happens.

(Also, the daddy issues.

I mean, look at what Odin and Laufey did

(SPOILERS for first Thor movie)

What Laufey (king of the frost giants) did:

1: Abandoned Loki because he was a 'runt’

2: Didn’t just abandon him; left him outside in the freezing cold in the middle of a freaking battlefield

What Odin did:

1: He rescued Loki when Laufey abandoned him because he felt sorry for the child…and also because he was planning use him as a pawn to someday make peace with the frost giants.

2: was planning to never, ever have a decent, reasonable 'you’re adopted, but you’re just as much my child as Thor is’ conversation with Loki

3: 'Yes, frost giants are terrible, bloodthirsty creatures, they are completely irredeemable’

4: some years later- 'Am I…? 'Yes, you are also a frost giant’

5: it’s heavily implied that he, like most others, always paid more attention to Thor than Loki

6: 'FATHER! I could have done it! For you…!’ 'No, Loki.’ *lets his adoptive son FALL INTO AN ABYSS IN SPACE. Like, he literally just stands there, watching Loki let go and fall to his death (well, not actually death, but that’s what it looks like)*

6: 'Both of you were born to be kings’

Later: 'All this because Loki desires a throne…YOUR BIRTHRIGHT WAS TO DIE! As a child, cast out on a frozen rock. If I had not taken you in, perhaps you would not be here now to hate me.’

I don’t hate Odin as much as the rest of the fandom seems to, and I do think he had reasons for doing what he did, but the fact still stands that he can be a massive hypocrite (tells Loki that he can’t try to take over the earth because they are no different from humans in the end, then tells Thor he shouldn’t date a human woman and calls her a 'goat’) and the things he did to Loki were just cruel.

Also, Thor, though he never wanted to hurt Loki, didn’t help. From what little we got to see in the Thor movies, it seems he also thought Loki was a bit weird for his quiet nature and interest in books and magic, usually refused to listen to anything he had to say, and just took his presence for granted most of the time so that he never realized how much Loki mattered to him until he lost him.)

Ok, so I’m trying to start the fic and I’m narrowing it down to Urie, Ken, and Shuu. I mean, the obvious choice is Urie since it seems like he’s one of your faves, but Heathers is a bit of a…graphic…story and while I’ve thrown in a bit of extra fluff IT WILL NOT BE A HAPPY FIC. So. Maybe you don’t want to see your favorite character hurt that way…

Also, because it’s HEATHERS, the story that’s set in a normal high school with absolutely no sci-fi or fantasy yet manages to be almost as dark as Black Butler, I guess I should put some warnings…

Slight yandere-ish behavior, murder, bullying, very vague mentions of self-harm and suicide (nobody actually does it or did it though), implied child abuse, sort-of-smut(scene cuts off right before anything smutty actually happens), and a ton of angst

(hint: it’s probably angstier than that thing I wrote about Viktor in a TG AU)

Is this ok with you?

Last note: Heathers and DEH both have a lot of dialogue to fill up the spaces between songs so you might want to either read the plots on wikipedia or talk with me every one or two songs so I can help explain what’s going on ^^

No worries ^^ I was a bit worried though, since I though you interpreted my ‘no new fandoms until the weekend!’ as ‘no messages until the weekend’

About the new chapter (127), has there been another time skip? Also, Shuu’s back! I’m sure you’re happy to see your hubby again (･ω<)☆ And I’m so proud of Naki ;-; My boy’s finally speaking properly.

#bringSaikoback #becauseHe’sEvilThat’sY

Wait, she confessed her love? Man, I’ve forgotten a lot of things…

Yeah, that seems about right… What a gourmet.

Mask making, then? or eating eyeballs, that also wouldn’t be so weird.

I want Hide to come back to life and become the next Jesus or something, saving absolutely everyone, because why not? I mean, he’s Hide after all. Rize eating Furuta would be enough to get me to read the manga again (I already am, tho, at least somewhat. It’s your fault)

Maybe Ishida’s trying to redeem himself by giving us all the lovey-dovey stuff? It’s a shitty redemption attempt, but still… and bringing back the dead certainly is an interesting way to advance the plot. hopefully it turns out to be a good one as well. hopefully.

i understand how/why mutsuki would fall for sasaki, but it was done in a very bad time and generally doesn’t fit with anything. id be a lot happier if they went murder crazy, but without the whole sasaki obsession. just let the guy be happy for fucks sake

You’re definitely a masochist. I mean, anyone who reads TGRe is (does that make me one as well…?). The AU is my pride and joy, the best idea I’ve ever had. I mean, just imagine it. Everyone being happy and enjoying life without suffering.

I’m sure you’ll do just fine ^^ I may not have anxiety but I do know the feeling of stage-fright. I mean, just a few weeks ago, I was at the japanese speaking contest and I still remember how badly I was shaking before, during and after my speech. I was so afraid I’d mess up… and I did! I did not understand any of the questions they asked me. Only later did I realise what they were trying to say, but in the moment, I was too scared to comprehend basically anything. However, I got through it, no matter how scared I was. So I’m sure you’ll do just as well, if not better!

All hail King Evans, the One Eyed King! Now go stop the fighting between ghouls and humans, please.

Yeah, Evans is a bit of a boyish name. My first association with it before I met you was Soul Evans, from Soul Eater, a guy. It’s also part of the reason why I was really afraid to write anything that might delude your gender, since lots of people get mad when people assume.

Jealous Urie would be one of the most hilarious things ever. He’s to awkward to admit it, which means he also doesn’t do anything about it. How fun.

But you still haven’t answered my question… Who would you pick to be your significant other from the other fandoms we share, like Kuroshitsuji, AoT or YoI? Or even the Avengers universe ;) You’re not avoiding it!

Honestly, Shuu is one of those people who get along with basically everyone, so I’m sure you’d get along with him. Besides, he’s empathetic, so he’d give everyone a chance to open up.

IDOL HELL! Join us...

Oh really? Well, I was planning on watching the first Avengers movie and the Thor movies today and tomorrow (and maybe during the next week), so I’ll definitely tell you my opinion, then ^^ But Thor has short hair in the new movie. I am definitely not satisfied =3=

The whole family has some huge issues, doesn’t it? (thor’s family)

I say Kaneki, because it’s not a happy fic and out of the three, I like him the least.

Sure, I’m fine with basically everything at this point. TG has ruined me in the darkness of itself (i don’t know what im typing anymore, don’t question me, please)

Okay, I’ll make sure to ask you about anything I don’t understand when I start listening to it ^^

#evans #submission

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