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#loki series discourse
candyandcoffee · 2 months
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I haven't seen this posted to Tumblr yet (though tbf I haven't looked super hard), but someone analyzed the scripts and screen time for Loki Season 2. The post has been going around Loki/Marvel Reddit and now a Mary Sue article over the last few days.
The tl;dr of it is that Loki S2 drastically cut back on all of the women/female characters in both screen time and dialogue, which many of us have called out from having watched the show, but now there are some real numbers behind it showing how badly they needed more (any?) women in the writers' room.
They had some incredible characters in season 1. I am a big Sylvie fan, so the season was disappointing on her treatment alone, but the writers really squandered EVERY woman character in season 2. For S2, Vertiy/B-15 was given almost nothing to work with. Ravonna was under-utilized as well.
The eye-opening part IMO is the actual numbers demonstrating how much all of the women were sidelined, which doesn't even take into account how dirty they did all of the women when they were given screentime at all.
I encourage people to read the data posted as it's a really interesting look at the actual numbers. There's a lot there (including more facts like the below), but here's some quick points:
Named female characters' screen time decreased by 17% (1246 seconds)
Named male character' screen time increased by 30% (4196 seconds)
In Season 1 excluding Loki male and female side characters had near equal dialogue (women: 44%, men: 56%)
In Season 2 excluding Loki, male characters' dialogue more than doubled that of female characters. (women: 29% men 71%)
Sylvie's screen time was more than halved
IMO, all of that led to a really disappointing season and yet another instance of Marvel completely fumbling the bag when it comes to its treatment of women characters.
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bebx · 4 months
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“this ship is not canon” babe, they’re fictional characters. they’re not real. they’re literally dolls we play with. we don’t care about whether or not these fictional characters’ love story is canon in this piece of media that is also entirely based on fiction. I mean, sure, canon would be lovely, but it’s a bonus. it’s not necessary. what we care about is the fun of talking about these 2 idiots being in love.
we don’t give a fuck if they didn’t kiss in “canon”. they had raw sex in thousands of fics about them though. and I’d say that’s more than enough to make people who ship them happily ship them even harder. happy shipping!
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naturestheway22 · 5 months
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Watching Marvel Entertainment’s Loki Season 2 (2023) starring Tom Hiddleston and Owen Wilson
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sylvies-kablooie · 3 months
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as someone running a loki blog in the year 2024, finding old loki blogs is such a cultural shock. what do you mean i just found an account from a decade ago entirely devoted to manga drawings shipping loki with himself. they tried to cancel me on twitter for doing something mildly adjacent to this.
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jimintomystery · 5 months
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Wow
On Monday, Marvel put out a new Loki trailer, previewing the final two episodes of the season. The trailer briefly shows Mobius living out a normal life, presumably as he did before he was recruited into the Time Variance Authority.
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Since then the Loki fandom, famed for its carefully considered reactions, has gone from debating whether Mobius is married/divorced/widowed to wondering if Mobius is secretly Thor. (Or Balder.) This is all based on approximately three seconds in a trailer for two episodes.
Apparently word got around that Mobius's real name is "Don," which could make him Don Blake. In the comics, Don Blake was the human alter ego of Thor. (Or Balder, in the other comics. This is confusing.) I have absolutely no idea how anyone decided Mobius is named "Don" in the first place. It's the same kind of logic that gave us "Someone said 'the devil' in WandaVision, so Mephisto is the next Thanos."
At issue here is, as usual, Lokius. If Mobius has a family life outside the TVA, you see, then he might not be willing or able to consummate his fanon romance with Loki. Or, if he's somehow a variant of Loki's adoptive brother, it would get real awkward for Lokius shippers who have insisted that it's wrong to pair Loki up with Sylvie because they ought to have more of a sibling dynamic. (Loki, who once fucked a horse, could not be reached for comment.)
Anyway, the next episode of Loki drops later tonight, and there's doom and gloom in the fandom about the possibility that Lokius has been Thorki all along. I've already seen someone denounce this "twist" as homophobia and queerbaiting. Because, you see, Disney deliberately designed this show to get fans to infer an mlm relationship, and now Disney is going to dick around with said relationship just to spite those fans, which wouldn't increase their profits by one cent, but for some reason they're bound and determined to do it anyway? I need to lie down.
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cherriiramen · 5 months
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There was literally no queerbaiting in Loki. As a bisexual man I am literally begging people to stop calling "male characters had close and intimate scenes but did end up together" queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is when they dangle a potential queer character in front of the audience and then go "oops no they're straight" Loki isn't even straight! He's canonically bi! So is Sylvie! Neither of them ended up with anyone! Men are allowed to be close without being romantically or sexually interested in each other and modern audiences are so spoiled for representation that those friendships are attacked by fans angry they didn't fuck.
HOLY SHIT I JUST ANSWERED AN ASK TO DO WITH THIS-
ANON WHAT A TIMING-!!
Here! Have the link to what I spoke of this. I think you’d like this. 😭
https://www.tumblr.com/cherriiramen/733622613500395520/im-sorry-could-you-be-more-specific-of-why-you
This is exactly what I’m trying to say.
Loki was confirmed canonically bisexual, how much more could we ask for??
No romantic relationship was confirmed between him and Mobius. Neither was it confirmed between him and Thor, nor him and Tony, nor him and Fandrall, and ohhh the list is long..
I’m a multishipper in general because I love analysing different character dynamics and how they might work, but… hello guys?? 😀
Like it’s nice to fantasise sometimes when it comes to shipping, but can we stop mixing our delusions with ‘canon’?? It’s happening far too often where you have a bunch of extremists ruin a show/movie for you by hyping it up just for two ‘queer’ characters then completely shit on it when they don’t get the representation they highly expected by the end of it.
++ I find it really fucking petty and ungrateful how so many of them turned on Tom for not making out with Mobius or some shit. He deserves so much better than this. Are you forgetting how much of this fandom’s bs he handled?? He laughed with us at our crazy fanart, ship art it be or just Loki on a damn stripping pole. He was asked so many uncomfortable questions. He was more than generous with us.
Honestly..
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insomnikat-mused · 5 months
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"For you."
Contrary to what the shippers say, this was a masterstroke from the writers. It was epic. It equally acknowledged and doomed both ships. It makes us froth at the mouth hungry for another season. Support writers. Always support writers.
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musclesandhammering · 6 months
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Idk which is worse, the delusional loki*s stans that are braindead enough to be convinced that the company that butchered the show’s queer rep is actually gonna make their ship canon or the annoying ass s*lkis that think having yet another unnecessary cookie cutter heteronormative romance that takes away from the plot and Loki’s character development is a good and profound thing.
I just wanna talk about the show without seeing 16379490405 posts about how “uwu he loves him/her so much, he/she is his new glorious purpose 🥹”. Like. That is SO NOT the point of the show, guys.
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hopelessfandomfreak · 6 months
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the thing about sylki that bothers me the most is that if sylvie were male, way more people would be up in arms about a romance between loki and his variant. if it were a mlm relationship, people would hate it because “it’s weird, they’re the same person!” or “it’s self-cest, it’s gross.”
but guess what? just because sylvie is female doesn’t mean those arguments don’t apply. I guarantee that the only reason some people support the ship (especially casual fans) is because it’s between a man and a woman, which is frankly disgusting and irritating.
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brsb4hls · 5 months
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Right nobody will care, but it's important to me.
In order to get decent representation in media there needs to be a serious discourse.
This also refers to openly adressing and criticizing queerbaiting.
If you claim 'queerbaiting' every time two men get along with each other, you're effectivly killing the discourse.
It will have the 'cry wolf' effect and will not be taken seriously anymore.
There's obviously no point in sharing interviews that contradict the 'baiting', since nobody cares. I tried.
It's also useless to argue perception, you can't argue perception.
So lets try logic as a last resort:
From what I've seen Lokius hardly exists outside of tumblr. Some may ship it on twitter (daily lokius has like 4000 followers and there might he overlap with the tumblr croud), there's the occasional facebook comment, idk about TikTok.
On tumblr, how big is the fandom? The most popular posts I've seen have like 5000 notes.
So lets be generous and estimate 8000 people in total. (Edit: been informed it's 11000, still not a blip)
That's not even a blip in ratings.
It absolutely does not matter in any capacity.
Now why would the Loki show go through the trouble of creating subtle queer subtext for a handful of people who wont make them money?
Can't be positive reception, because the press focusses on the clever time travel stuff, easter eggs, cinematography, effects, what have you. There's enough positivity.
There is absolutely no reason.
And if you argue that queer shows are getting more popular: yes, thankfully they are, but if you look at the tv stats from just today, ofmd is ranked 67 in popularity, Loki is ranked 9.
Even if those stats weren't reliable, the bitter truth is that Loki does not need the Lokius shipping subset of queer fans (subset because there are enough queer Loki fans who watch anyways).
So tl;dr: By all means, celebrate your ship, that's what it's for. But get off the queerbaiting train please. That's so not what's happening here and it messes up discourse.
(Otoh I gotta admit if 8000 people complain about being baited next friday, it probs also wont matter. But it is so exhausting, you have no idea)
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galaxythreads · 1 year
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me, normally: people are allowed to have their own interpretations of a character! helps the fandom ecosystem! :) :) :)
me, seeing an interpretation I don't agree with: Not That Interpretation though!
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alwida10 · 8 months
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Look at that! I got my first anon hate for season 2! 🙃 I know there are some decent and nice fans of the show. But for some reason the toxic ones seem to be more. Or louder.
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nerdby · 6 months
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If Loki knowing about the Infinity Stones in the television series has been tripping you up, please go back and rewatch the first Avengers movie--
In the first Avengers film, Loki had two Infinity Stones in his possession while battling the Avengers. One of them is the space stone which was encased in the tesseract and the other was the mind stone which was encased in Loki's staff. The mind stone was given to Loki by Thanos because Thanos knew it would aid him in making Loki betray Thor and try to take over Earth. This is because the mind stone acting as a drug that would allow Thanos to control Loki's thoughts and actions.
Because, like it or not, Loki is not stronger than an Infinity Stone.
So if you're confused about how TVA!Loki knows about the Infinity Stones, the answer is simple--
Thanos told Loki about the Infinity Stone in his staff and about the other Stones in the first Avengers movie, but also failed to mention the effect the stone would have on Loki himself. So TVA!Loki would NOT have needed to live through the events of any of the post-2012 MCU films to know of the Stones' existence.
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sylvies-kablooie · 6 months
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i hope we are better people now than in 2021
not to revive dead discourse but i just want to put it out there that they way the internet treated sophia dimartino during s1 of loki was cruel and if i see any of that going on again this time around i will block no questions asked. you are not "cool" for posting horrific harassment to the people behind a show you didn't like.
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jimintomystery · 5 months
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@sunflowerdigs replied to your post “Wow”:
It wouldn't be to spite queer fans (though it would do that). It would reassure straight viewers that Lokius could never happen. It would be classic queerbaiting, really. Rope in queer viewers with subtext, but then appeal to the straight majority audience that Marvel actually wants once D+ has its subscription money. It's definitely not unheard of. The panic based on unsubstantiated rumors is silly but the distrust of a major franchise isn't.
For what it's worth, I'm willing to believe some media has intentionally queerbaited its audience. The problem is that all I've read about the topic relies on anecdotal evidence: "I expected this queer ship to be endgame, but then it wasn't, so those awful producers must have tricked me." If there's an interview or something, where somebody in the industry admitted to using queerbaiting as an actual strategy to increase viewership, then I'd be very interested in reading that. But even then, I'm skeptical that the strategy works at scale, or that Disney would bother employing it on Loki.
The motive for queerbaiting, as you've laid out, is to "rope in queer viewers" without alienating homophobic viewers, to maximize total viewership and therefore profits. That seems plausible for a show on the CW that's subsisting on a deeply hardcore audience. It makes less sense on a major streaming service that owns Star Wars, the Simpsons, and all the Marvel superheroes and all the Disney princesses. Disney+ doesn't have to do some intricate balancing act to play two opposing audiences against one another in a single show. For one thing, Loki is a spinoff of a billion-dollar movie. For another, if Disney just wanted to maximize profits, they would have used their Loki budget to make Iron Man vs. Darth Vader instead.
So I think it's fair to say Disney already has a stranglehold on "the straight majority audience that Marvel actually wants." That's not to say they wouldn't go the extra mile to string along queer subscribers as well. But if that was the play for Loki, they kinda gave away the game two years ago, when Sylvie kissed Loki, and the fandom denounced the show for queerbaiting. Why bait your queer viewers, and then chase them off before the second season? Granted, a lot of Lokius shippers weren't chased off, although a great many of them expect to be queerbaited some more. At this point the bait analogy falls apart--the fisherman crafts the perfect lure, but then tries to scare away all the fish, except the ones who would jump straight into the boat without any incentive at all.
Again, I'm willing to keep an open mind about this stuff. But from what I've seen so far, if the Loki showrunners are queerbaiting, they're doing a shit job of it, for an audience that sees right through the trick and pays to watch anyway, which makes the bait a complete waste of effort. It makes no sense. So it's easier to buy the alternative--nobody was trying to deceive the Lokius shippers, and they played themselves.
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lazy-cat-corner · 2 years
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A valid question I’ve been asking all day. 🤔
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