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Episode 83 Transcript: Is the Lack of Sam Reaction Shots in Supernatural Caused by Jared Padalecki Being Too Tall?

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it is Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show so many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today’s episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 1: "Sympathy for the Devil," written by Eric Kripke and directed by Robert Singer. [C: Classic pair-up.] Classic pair-up! Is Robert Singer in The Boys? Is that something that they do? Have they stayed together forever, it's been so long, it's been so long, baby, we're fireproof? [both laugh]

C: What a great reference to a song by some random artist that Mitski also covered. I have no clue. [G laughs]

G: Well, let's see. Is he?

C: I think he is, 'cause when I when I typed in "Robert Singer"- oh, no, never mind. Robert Singer is the character in the boys played by Jim Beaver, right.

G: Oh, yeah. That is crazy. [laughs]

C: That- yeah. Like, I just don't see why you could do that and be like, "And no one will know what I've done to the world." [laughs]

G: Supernatural is his like, most recent directorial thing and also producer thing. He just quit! [laughs]

C: I mean, do you think he made enough to not need to work anymore?

G: I'm sure he did. [laughing] Have you heard about the [C: Nepotism?] money laundering whatever? [C: The what?] [laughing] Like, people are saying that, because he's the producer- [C: The money laundering?] Yeah. [laughs]

C: 'Cause he was a director and a producer, and the producers handle- do producers handle, like, funding for shows or something?

G: I have no idea. And also, are we gonna cut all of this in case I get sued for libel? [C laughs]

C: Are there different rules for international libel? [G laughs]

G: Please don't arrest me, Robert Singer. [both laughing] Okay, let's get on to the fucking episode. [C: Okay.] 5.01. First episode of Season 5. I do feel like so much information is given to us immediately, and it is a bit of a surprise given that all other seasons of Supernatural, I feel like, start off with a Season 1 that is either continuing what happened last episode; it's basically like, the season ender of the last episode, you know what I mean?Of the last season? [C: Sure, yeah.] Or it's like, just fuck-all.

C: And that's- okay, like, the first category is 2.01 and 4.01 [G: Yes.] and fuck-all is 3.01? [G: Yes.] Yes, I suppose in the sample size of three, these are true statements.

G: [laughs] No, yeah, you're right! That is a very small sample size. No, but this one, I feel like, if, again, Supernatural is a five-season show, I'd be like, "Oh, well, we're ending." Like, this is the last season of the show. Because they introduce so many, like, vital things to the show, like, immediately. [C: Yeah.] It was a surprise, because I thought a lot of this stuff will be sprinkled in throughout the first half of Season 5. I didn't know that it was immediately Episode 1.

C: Yeah, I guess we just need to hit the ground running to wrap everything up.

G: Yeah. Like, here, we learn that Dean is a vessel and Sam is a vessel. I mean, first of all-

C: We don't learn that

G: Sam is Lucifer's vessel?

C: Wait, is that- did I forget about that? Is that stated here?

G: Cas, like, says it, doesn't he?

C: Cas?

G: Yeah, Cas tells that them that Lucifer's vessel is-

C: He says "Lucifer is circling his vessel," by which he means Nick.

G: Ohh. I thought that was like, "It's Sam," because he's also looking at Sam directly when he says it. [C: Well, I mean-] [laughing] That makes more sense, given that Nick was there.

C: Yeah, Nick, was very much like, the B plot of the episode. [G laughs]

G: God. Well, okay, then, I completely misunderstood everything fundamentally. [laughing] Maybe they're not introducing anything this episode. [C laughs] [C: They do introduce Dean-] No, the vessel Dean, I didn't know they introduced it here. I didn't know it was here. And also, I didn't know Meg was gonna be here.

C: I knew Meg was gonna be here.

G: I didn't know that Meg was going to be here, yeah. I knew that she was gonna be in Season 5, and she's gonna appear earlier than that-

C: I knew that Dean would say "peanut butter." I know my Meg scenes. [laughs]

G: Yeah, I mean, I knew she was going to be here before 5.10, because, I mean, obviously, she had to be here before Cas and her... kiss? They kiss in that episode, yeah? [C: Yeah. Yeah, they do.] I just didn't know it was Episode 1. It didn't feel to me like an Episode 1 thing. I don't know. And also, Becky's here. I didn't know she was in Episode 1.

C: I didn't know Becky was gonna show up this early. [G: Yeah.] I thought she was gonna show up in like, the fan convention episode for the first time.

G: Yeah. So, I mean, we're just going directly into what you know about the episode, but I guess this is my "what I knew" part. Okay, what did you know about the episode before going in?

C: So I know that Cas comes back at some point. [G: Hell yeah.] I do think my 5.01 knowledge is kinda like, shaky and that I was like, "I know that this handful of things happens in this period, but I don't know which happens when." Like, I think for a second, I was like, "Oh, is the 'Cas, are you God?' thing here?" But then I was like, "No, actually, that has to be like, at the end of 5.22 or at the beginning of 6.01, because Cas had to get exploded by Lucifer for that one." I knew that Meg would come back as Rachel Miner and immediately sexually assault Dean, and he would say, "Is that peanut butter?" I was like, "At some point, Jo and Ellen come back during the season, and there's this town full of reapers, but I don't know if it's this episode." [G: It's not, yeah.] It wasn't this episode. You told me that Sam and Dean part ways at the beginning of Season 5, [G: Yeah.] so I thought that that would have to happen this episode because they're separate in 5.03 and come back together in 5.04. [G: After 5.04, yeah.] But I guess, apparently, it's not in this episode. Like, they're just solo for like, one or two episodes max, so that's not particularly entertaining.

G: Wait, what do you mean? What are you talking about? They break up at the end of this episode!

C: Well, Dean says, "I don't trust you anymore," and Sam stands there sadly. [both laugh] I just assumed that after the cameras ended, Sam still gets into the car. [G, laughing: You think Sam just gets into the car?] I thought he was just standing there sadly for a bit to process how he was sad! But you're telling me that Dean left Sam without a ride?

G: [laughing] No, I was thinking the whole time, "No, this is Sam's car too!" No, actually, I'm not sure, now that you mention it like that, I'm not sure if next episode, they're gonna fine, and then Dean's gonna do a grand, [dramatic] "Let's not talk to each other anymore! [C laughs] Let's talk once every 6 months like Grey BABPod recommended!"

C: I thought you recommended once every two months.

G: Was it? So it's six times a year. [C: Six times a year, yeah.] Okay, got it, got it, yeah. I need to stay consistent on my recommendations. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Uh-huh, exactly. Exactly. Like, the details of policy are important. They change things a lot. [G: Exactly.] So I guess the only real thing that I remember clearly and correctly is [both] Meg.

G: Yeah. Cas, you know anything about Cas that happens this episode?

C: I just knew that he came back, but that's it. [G: Yeah.] Also, he was here very briefly, anyway, so.

G: He was here very briefly. You know what? I thought the scene where Dean gets an X-ray was going to be in this episode. It's not. [C: No.] So I suppose they are together next episode. [C: Oh, 'cause they're together when Dean gets the X-ray?] 'Cause Cas needs to show up. Cas needs to show up and be like-

C: Oh, right, right, right. 5.02- Okay, yeah. 'Cause one of my notes I didn't say it was "Is the whole like, 'I lied, I blah blah blah, and I did it all for you!' in this episode or later?" And it's 5.02, right? [G: Yeah.] Yeah. And that's in hospital 'cause the ceilings and the floors in the gifsets look hospital-like.

G: Yeah. You watched this episode before me and you messaged me like, "Is Destiel real?" And I was giggling, twirling my hair, and I thought it was a reference to the fact that Cas comes in and says, "I did everything for you." [C: No. That's not now.] or whatever. But no! It's about a different thing. That's why I was surprised in the episode when it didn't happen to it, yeah.

C: Yeah. Guess even someone who's watched Supernatural many, many times can't remember everything.

G: This is true. This is true.

G: "Sympathy for the Devil," "Road so Far," "Thunderstuck" by AC/DC. [C: Soo good! Soo good!] Not really a song I give a shit about. You love it? You love it?

C: Yeah. Did you not? [G laughs]

G: I mean, it was fine. Okay, tell me what you liked about it.

C: It literally goes, "You've been thunderstruck" on [G laughs] Sam being killed by lightning!

G: [laughing] No, literally, this "Road So Far" is pretty long and arduous, and the only thing I love and remember and care to say is that Sam gets struck by lightning, and they show it here, and it's so wonderful!

C: Also, there's a part where it goes, "Thun! Der!" and on each syllable, it's a cut between Cas's wings showing in 4.01. [G: Love it.] Is that not fun?

G: It was okay, but I was taken completely by when Sam falls down-

C: They sync up the Pamela scream and Anna scream.

G: Hell yeah! Well, that's really fun. The stuff that they try to establish here is mostly the vessel stuff, right? And like, just in general that the Apocalypse is coming in a theater near you.

C: Yeah, Apocalypse is coming, Cas exists, Chuck exists, the angels want the Apocalypse-

G: You know what's so wonderful? You know what's so wonderful to me? They don't do a "I'm Castiel, an angel of the Lord" in this thing. They don't introduce Cas. Cas is already part of the show.

C: Like, "You should know who this is already."

G: Yeah! 'Cause when they introduce Zachariah, it's like, "I'm Cas's superior," so like, you're already implied to know who Cas is, and that is important to me! [laughs] Like, the fact that Cas is quote, "not" in this "Road So Far" or like, doesn't have that kind of a central role is important to me because it means that he's not like, a new character that's being introduced and like, a novelty. He's just part of the crowd now. Ahh!

C: Yeah, did you notice that in the list of cast coming up at the beginning [G: Yes.] that Jim Beaver is a guest star but Misha Collins is just like, [G: Yes!] in the beginning list, even though he has way less time?

G: Exactly. Oh, Cas is so important to me! [laughs] Anyway, everything's so corny, but I love Castiel so much! [laughs] [C: Yeah.] So now we start at the actual episode, and we are at still like, where we left off at last episode. I don't know. They're just trying to get away, but the door slams shut, and Sam's like, [dramatically] "He's coming, he's here!" or whatever. And then everything turns super bright, and there's like, so much noise like, just white noise, but also, a lot of growling.

C: [laughs] Yeah, what was the growling about?

G: Yeah! Was it like, a hellhound situation? Like, the hellhounds are coming? I don't know. It was fascinating to me that- [C: Were there hellhounds?] No, not that we see, but we don't ever see hellhounds, so that don't matter. [C: No one can see them, yeah.] And I mean, the thing is, like, you know, we have the hellhounds here. Well, the hellhound-sounding things here. And then the next scene is like, on a plane, [laughs] and then the plane crashes, and it's like, [both laughing] this is the worst day of Dean's life, like-

C: Sam's also here, and Sam feels guilt about raising Lucifer! How's it the worst day of Dean's life?

G: [laughing] Like, removed from the fact that Lucifer has just been risen, like, Dean's having a rough time, you guys!

C: Oh, because he's scared of planes.

G: He's scared of the dogs and the plane, yeah.

C: Okay, yeah, sure, whatever. I still think Sam's having a worse day. [G laughs]

G: It's a competition. Exactly.

C: [laughing] Yeah, it is. And Sam's winning.

G: But yeah, when you think they're going to die, they get transported into a plane, and the way we see it is there's a cartoon of it playing. This is not a cartoon that is real?

C: It seems like a thing that would be real. I'm looking it up. Yeah, Yosemite Sam is a cartoon character in Looney Tunes.

G: Oh, well. you know, it's just the devil and he's talking to some guy, and it's in front of Sam and Dean on the TV screen of the airplane. There's like- the pilot decides that this is the most appropriate time to do an expository intercom message, where he says that they're just passing over Ilchester, and they're gonna descend into Baltimore or whatever the fuck. And Dean's like, "Ilchester? Weren't we just there?" And they were. And then there's the bright light, the airplane starts- whatever. Doing the thing. [laughs] Turbulence, is what it does. And then, I don't know. Scary. How did they get down that plane? Did they get checked, and they were like, "Why are there two extra people here?" Is it like, in local flights, they don't give a shit, right? You just hop out.

C: Yeah, they don't count how many people exit [G: Yeah, I suppose so.] in any flight [laughing] because, like, no one can enter a flight while it's mid-flight.

G: [laughing] No, you're right! This is a very fringe case, yeah. [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] But who knows? Maybe, I don't know- divine things can happen.

C: Yeah, if you hide someone in the suitcase, I guess. [laughs] [G: Yeah, exactly.]

C: Yeah, we don't see how they get off of that plane properly because they're just in a car. [G: Yeah.] Apparently, it's a rented car. I literally couldn't tell. I thought it was the Impala.

G: I mean, of course it is, because Bobby's driving the Impala later! [C: He is?] And they do a very, very intense shot on it, to the point where I was like, "Was the Impala broken last season, and now they're showing us that it's fixed, just like, Sam and Dean and Cas?" [C: I don't remember this in any way whatsoever.] But no, they were just doing a Chevrolet commercial. [C: Huh. Okay.] When Bobby steps down, it was like, close-up shot of the "Chevrolet" and the Impala, [C laughs] and it just stays there on the headlight for so long. And I was like, "Well, this car's beautiful. I get it."

C: Maybe Supernatural was was trying to get their their sponsorship money. [G laughs] They're in this rental car, and the news is going, apparently, people, are wondering if the convent was attacked by terrorists, and then there's a hurricane, and then North Korea has nuclear missiles, and there's earthquakes, and there's swine flu. And the implication is that [laughs] Lucifer being let out caused the swine flu, I think? [G laughs]

G: Was there actually swine flu 2009 in United States?

C: I think that is about the right time when it was like, in my consciousness. Yes, it was in 2009. [G: Hell, yeah!] So [laughs], just as "Phantom Traveler" said that demons did 9/11, they're now saying that [both] Lucifer did swine flu. [G: Good lord. Well.] Good lord. Obviously, the environment in this car is tense. [G: Yeah.] [G laughs] Sam's got his "I'm so sad and guilty face on." Dean's got his "I'm allergic to emotions. Emotions are the enemy, except for anger, but I'm allergic to that too" face on. He's the one who demands that Sam changes the radio station because it starts on talking about the bright light coming from the convent, and then eventually, they just both shut it off. Sam goes, "Dean, look." And Dean just goes, "Don't say anything." And then he says, "It's okay. We just gotta keep our heads down and hash this out, alright?" And it like, it doesn't sound that begrudging. Like, it sounds like he is like, turning over a new leaf and being nice now. [G: Yeah.] I guess that is what he is trying to do this episode, but he ends up not being able to.

G: What I feel about how Dean is reacting to all this doesn't necessarily change per episode, but every single time, I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense." [C: What do you mean?] I mean it makes sense for Dean's character. Like, "Yeah, he'll do this." [C: Yeah.] And I understand where he is coming from every single time. I do think this is a- Dean is annoying, just fundamentally-

C: This is a healthy enough way to go about it.

G: Yeah. [C: Yeah.] Especially that scene with Bobby, that's the one that I am like, I think we'll get into it when we get into it. But that's the one where I had to take a pause and be like, "Hm. I'm thinking. I'm thinking. I'm having thoughts."

C: About how Dean should die?

G: No. [C: What?] It was fascinating to me that- like, Dean has, this entire episode prior to that, right, was like, "Sam, just don't- just shut the fuck up." [C laughs] And he was very much like, "Oh, what's it gonna do? What's it gonna do?" And between the two of them, it was like, "Let's not talk about it because it's not gonna fix anything." But then when it became like, revealing to Bobby that it was like, as Sam said, "his fault," Dean was like, "No, don't tell Bobby!" And that was like, trying to save Sam's face to Bobby, wasn't it? And it was very, I think, like, I don't know. I start thinking like, when it was John, and like, you know, when Sam, for example, as a kid, like, fucked around and did something that is quote "bad," to Dean, it's like, "Well, I'm mad at you, Sam, that you did that!" blah blah blah, but it was always probably still like, "But let's not tell Dad because he's gonna get mad."

C: I don't think John and Bobby are particularly comparable characters.

G: Of course! But they do compare them this episode. That's the whole point of what they did with Bobby this episode. [C: Mm.] I think also about the fact that when John was possessed, he tells Dean, like, "Great job," and Dean's like, "You're possessed because Dad wouldn't say that." And now, Bobby is possessed, and he tells Sam, like, "Don't ever call me again. And, you know, fuck off forever." And they're like, "Yeah, that's that's probably right." And it's like, "Well, it's not. That's Bobby being possessed." And I do think like, those are parallels to each other, or they're supposed to take from each other. [C: Yeah.] And also, like, the way Bobby reacts is supposed to inform us, and the way Dean specifically reacts to Bobby reacting is supposed to inform us about Sam and Dean's dynamic when it's just the two of them versus when there's a higher authority in question, which, I mean throughout their life that higher authority was John.

C: Okay, yeah, I see it. Sam is- there's just like, a pause where Sam sort of processes this. And I think, like, part of it, is like, gratitude, but part of it is about being denied catharsis, which I think is a feeling that racks up more and more in him throughout this episode. [G: Yeah, of course.] And then he just goes with, "Yeah, okay." And then, you know, they say, you know, neither of them know how they ended up on the plane. Maybe it was angels. And Dean goes, "Well, whatever. It's the least of our worries. We need to find Cas." Hello?!

G: It's Team Free Will! It's Team Free Will! It's Team Free Will! They're already Team Free Will here. You said last episode, "It's not Team Free Will because Sam is not here." [C: Yeah.] Well, Sam is here. Cas is not, but it's still Team Free Will.

C: Well, Cas isn't here, so it's still not Team Free Will. [G laughs]

G: Well, they're looking for Cas. Cas is mentioned! [C: Okay.] So that's Team Free Will to me. [C: Alright, alright.] Is this is this the scene where you were like, "Is Destiel real?"

C: No, it's a little bit later. [G: It's the later one, yeah.] Yeah.

G: But it is nice that Dean just immediately was like, "Cas is one of us now." I mean, he is, but it's nice to see, like, very clearly, Dean just being like, "Oh, and Cas is [C: Yeah.] on our side, our team."

C: [laughs] Even though he let Sam out of the room in 4.21. Cas is never gonna tell Dean that happened. That is not gonna come up ever.

G: [laughs] Like, post-canon, they're gonna get together. [laughing] And then, like, one day, Cas lets slip that this happened, and then they break up forever and ever. [C laughs]

C: For fucking real. I guess another thing that I wonder if it comes into Sam and Dean's dynamic at all is, like, the voicemail. [G: Yeah, it's not brought up.] 'Cause I know that like, the show forgets about it. But like-

G: I don't. And Dean doesn't.

C: Yeah, like, I didn't. And like, okay, I think on Dean's side, I think that it is heightening his anger that Sam like, ended up killing Lilith because he's like, "I left this really nice voicemail telling him to come back, [G: Yeah.] and like, we would figure this out together, and then he ignored it and killed Lilith anyway." And then for Sam, it's like, [laughs] "Dean literally said that he was gonna find me and kill me if he ever saw me again? [G: Yeah.] Like, this is quite bad." And like, well, yeah, I think that a lot of the "we need to talk about this" and trying to apologize is like, yeah, it's heightened by the like, "I need to know where we stand because that voicemail implied that, like, [G: Yeah.] we stand really, really far apart, and also I could be in literal physical danger if Dean was that mad? Like, I don't know." So like, yeah, it is definitely a situation.

G: Yeah, to Sam, it's like, "I want to know where we stand, because in the voicemail, whatever, you said that." And to Dean, it's the perspective of "Well, I know where we stand [C: Yeah.] because I left that awfully nice voicemail, and you ignored it. And so I understand now what your perspective is, and that-" You know later, when he was like, "You chose Ruby over me!" And like, to Sam, it's probably like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But to Dean, it's a very clear line of like, "I asked you to come back and that we would fix it and everything, and you still did not give a shit."

C: Well, maybe there were no bars.

G: There were- Dean, what if he like, literally just did not hear it? Like, [laughs] literally!

C: Like, what if his phone got smashed up?

G: Yeah, like, what if the voicemail did not send? What if AT&T failed so miserably at their job of, I don't know. [C: Yeah.] Like, what if Crowley went in and all of the USA phone lines went down? [laughs] Who knows?

C: Yeah, yeah. Why would Crowley be in in the US in 2009? What is she up to?

G: Vacation.

C: Yeah. Sure. Why not?

G: [laughs] I don't think- Does anyone go to the United States to vacation? That's crazy. [C: Yeah.] [laughing] Just go somewhere else. Is that so mean? So sorry, Americans.

C: No, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, I think that if if people need to get tourist industried, better for it to be the US than elsewhere. [G: This is true, this is true.] Unless it's Hawai'i, in which case, stop. Stop it. [G: Yeah.] Oh, also, to be clear to the audience, we are saying Cr-oh-wley, not Cr-ow-ley. This is a Good Omens podcast. [both laugh]

G: No, yeah, this is a reference to Crowley from Good Omens.

C: So they head over to Chuck's, where Cas was last spotted. Honestly, I'm surprised that Dean thought that Cas was still alive. Like, Cas's last words were clearly like a "I will die here."

G: "I'll hold them off! I will hold them all off!" I don't know. Wishful thinking, I suppose. And also, it's a very stressful situation. Like, I'm sure all of that has just blended together.

C: Yeah, it is just like a "We have to find all the allies that we can right now." [G: Yeah.] So they're there, and there's broken glass and blood all over the floor.

G: [laughs] This is such a funny as fuck scene. Is Chuck is so funny? I think Chuck is so funny.

C: Yeah, Chuck is really so funny. 'Cause as they're walking around, looking at all this destruction, Chuck comes out [G laughs] and then whacks Sam [G: Bonks Sam.] with a toilet plunger! It's so fun. It's so fun.

G: I love it! And Sam's just standing there holding his head! It's so funny.

C: [laughs] Yeah. I think they succeeded with Chuck when- I feel they're trying to do the same thing with Chuck that they tried to do with the Ghostfacers. Like, with Ed and Harry, where they're like, [G: Bit silly, bit goofy, yeah.] "Oh, this is like, some nerdy weak guy that you should all point and laugh at." But I think for Chuck, it's slightly offset by the fact that, like, he's a prophet, and later, God. [G: Yeah. He is actually useful to them.] And also the fact that as, like, the writer of the Supernatural books- Yeah, he's useful to them, and he's also clearly, like, sort of like, the writers making fun of themselves a little bit.

G: Yeah, instead of making fun of some other person.

C: Yeah. Ghostfacers felt like making fun of fans [G: A certain archetype, yeah.] and this is more of them making fun of themselves.

G: - us. [laughing] "Us" as in meaning the writers, not me, the fan. [laughs] Why do I keep on- every time I say anything about anyone, I do take the first-person perspective immediately. But anyway, I think Chuck is just- I think maybe the actor is just good at the comedic time, also. [C: Yeah, that could be it.] Yeah. I don't know. Chuck is- I still hold onto my very firm belief from that I mentioned in 4.18 that they should do- they should just put Chuck in the backseat of that fucking car. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] They should just hunt with a third, and the third is Chuck. [C: I agree.] [laughs] I still firmly believe this. I think it will bring a lot of fun to the show. And it will be the exact same show.

C: Yeah, yeah. I don't think Chuck would be particularly into it, though.

G: [laughs] Yeah. He'll hate it for everything, but. And in Season 11, he's still revealed to God. [laughing] Like, nothing changes. [C: Oh, yeah.] But now he has spent the entire time in the backseat of the Impala.

C: "God in the Backseat" is an album title to me, I think. [G: For real.] So Sam's holding his head out of pain. And Chuck goes kind of breathlessly, like, "Sam!" [G: "Sam!"] And like, Dean goes, "Hey, Chuck," and Chuck completely ignores him and says to Sam, very earnestly, like, very worried, like, "So, you're okay?" And at this point, I do write down, "Is Chuck/Sam like, a thing?" [G: He DGAF about Dean.] Yeah, he truly DGAF about Dean. I think Chuck/Sam should be a thing if it isn't already. I think I've seen it like, once.

G: I mean, it definitely is due to Chuck is God, but like, we're not talking about Chuck as God. We're talking about Chuck here and Sam here.

C: Yeah, he's just a silly little guy.

G: Yeah. [laughing] Sam says, "Well, my head hurts." [laughs] [C: Yeah.] He's also so funny this episode. Good for him.

C: Yeah. Maybe Sam is funny. Maybe Chuck and Sam make each other better through making each other funnier.

G: They're both kind of killjoys, and that is important to me.

C: Chuck goes like, "No, I mean, like, in my last vision, your body temperature went to 150, your heart rate went to 200, and your eyes were black." Why are you thinking about another man's heart and eyes, Chuck? [both laugh] [G: And temperature, even!] You think he was hot? You think he was smoking? But yeah.

G: What the fuck is a 150 temperature? Let me convert that shit.

C: So I think 98 is supposed to be like, what is healthy.

G: My god! He should be dead! [C: Yeah.] I mean he should be dead for other reasons also, but- to the Celsius-speaking audience- "Celsius-speaking"? Whatever. - It's 65.5°C. That's crazy!

C: Ouch! Dean, who is very annoying and who I don't like as a person [G: Hell yeah.], goes, "Your eyes went black?" Like, that is not what I am focused on, Dean! I'm focused on the other parts. But okay. And Sam, like, looks back at Dean, and he goes, "I didn't know." And he looks so sad, he looks so guilty. I guess it's like- it feels like a proper physical confirmation that drinking the demon blood really did turn him into a demon of some kind. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I guess this would be pretty devastating to hear about. Dean asks about Cas, but Chuck says that he's dead or gone, 'cause the archangel "smote the crap out of him." Hell yeah, I love wording. And Dean is still in denial. He's like, "Maybe he's just like [both] went to the light." [G laughs] But Chuck goes, "No, he exploded. Like a water balloon of chunky soup" is the way he puts it.

G: Just like Cas in Season 14. Like a melon under the sun.

C: For real. And Sam points out that there's something behind Chuck's ear, but he does not do the romcom move of like, "No, no, I've got it." and then getting it out of his hair.

G: He should've! [laughs] That's the reason why Chuck reached into the wrong side. He was like, "Maybe Sam would reach into the other side."

C: "Sam!" [laughs] Yeah. "Help me!"

G: "Sam, would you pull a molar out of my hair, Sam?"

C: But yeah, it's Cas's fucking tooth in his hair. [G: Exactly. It's so fun.] I love it. It's great

G: And he goes, [stressed] "Is there a molar in my hair? This has been a really stressful day!" [both laugh] [C: It's wonderful.] He's wonderful!

C: Wonderful. Yeah. Someone is on a fucking Destiel agenda because, like, first off- [G: Eric Kripke?] Eric Kripke and Robert Singer. Because earlier, when Chuck said that, like, Cas was smote, like, it cuts just directly to Dean's face. Like, just him.

G: [laughs] Yeah. I've been saying Robert Singer has been here for us this whole time! [both laughing]

C: The reason that he quit doing producing and directing after Supernatural is that he achieved his life's goal of Destieling.

G: He was like, "I was able to tell the Destiel story, and that's all that matters to me." [C laughs]

C: God. At the tooth, Dean goes, "Cas, you stupid bastard." And [laughs] yeah, like, maybe Destiel is real, you guys. I'm sorry for anything I've said earlier. [G laughs] Maybe it's real. Whoops.

G: This is so funny to me because this doesn't even faze me at all. Like, I see this, and I'm like, "Whatever. I mean, yeah." And I'm surprised that this is what does it in for you.

C: I think it's that I've mostly viewed Dean and Cas's relationship through Season 4 as like, Dean mostly prizes Cas as like, an ally or someone who can do things for him, so like, a sentence here, that's like- Like, he literally told Cas, you know, like, "The world is going to like, end or whatever, but like, we have to stop it, and like, it's worth dying for." [G: Yeah.] And then, now that Cas has died for it, he's like, "You should've saved yourself." Like, shows like, a level of caring about Cas as like, an individual like, soul, that he wants to continue going on in its immortal life. [G: Yeah.] Like, that does change how I think about their Season 4 relationship.

G: Yeah. 'Cause he could have easily been like, "Well, he died for a cause. You know, he died for something." But the thing is-

C: And I think the thing is that [G: - it's also because he failed.] if he managed to stop Sam in time, I think he would have been like, "Well, like, Cas, he fought bravely, and he died for a good cause." I do think a lot of it is just that it didn't even work. But like-

G: It's just that next episode, Cas will say, like, "I did everything for you, and you failed. You and your brother destroyed the world," blah blah blah. [C: Mm-hm.] So-

C: I would personally blame the angels for most of it, [laughs] but whatever you say, Cas.

G: Cas is going through it! Leave him alone! [both laugh]

C: Yeah, yeah. He's going through it. It's been a really stressful day.

G: [laughs] "It's been a really stressful day!" Well.

C: Yeah, so, right. And like, you know, Sam, like, hears the "Cas, you stupid bastard," and he goes like, "Stupid? He was trying to help us." like, trying to defend his man's honor. [both laugh] But yeah. Dean just goes, "Yeah, exactly." And, you know, next steps, they don't really know what to do, but Chuck senses that the angels are coming, and Zachariah shows up. And he tells Dean that he should come with him. There's like, these two rando henchmen angels in the background, [G: Yeah.] wearing like, black suits matching Zachariah's. And they're like, so nothing.

G: Yeah, their only purpose here is to make Cas look hot later while he kills them. [C laughs] No, really though!

C: For real. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. I do have a note at this point where it's like, I feel like seeing these three angels together in their black suits like, really makes me appreciate Cas's outfit. And it's the fact that, like, under the trenchcoat, he's just wearing a regular boring black suit, like all the other angels.

G: But he chooses to wear that trenchcoat, yeah!

C: Yeah, he chose to keep that trenchcoat that was like, put on by like, the man whose body he's possessing, whose life he destroyed, like, wanting to like, stay safe in the cold, even though he knew that like, an angel, would prevent him from being cold in the future. It's very much- Yeah, it's just like, a fun little extra thing [G: Yeah.] that makes him look more vulny and cute [laughs] than the other angels.

G: [laughs] Fundamentally, Cas works as a character because he's cute and vulny. [laughs] Like, honestly.

C: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, It gives him a completely different vibe than just like, wearing a black suit. [G: Yeah, it does, it does.] Like, he's not like, corporate.

G: Especially, it becomes more and more obvious the more we are introduced to the angels. Because the angel attire is corporate, and then you just have Cas who is in this fuck-all trenchcoat.

C: Yeah, though they style female angels so far as like, [laughs] doing a completely different thing than the male angels, but I know later, Naomi is in her gray suit, and, like, all the angels are in their gray suits, right?

G: Yeah. You're talking about Anna, right? But Anna-

C: I'm not talking about Anna. I'm talking about the white nightgown [G: The woman who- yeah.] worn by the angel at the opening of 4.16.

G: Yeah. I don't know what the fuck they were doing with Anna, but all the other women they introduce later are like, Hannah is corporate. [C: Yeah, she's in a gray suit.] Naomi's corporate. [C: Naomi's in a suit.] That girl who's defending Cas- the angel who defends Cas next season is also in a suit, stuff like that.

C: So he tells Dean to come with him. And Dean's just upset and wants him to stay away because of how the angels started the Apocalypse. And Zachariah's like, "Hey, it wasn't me! Right, Sam?" just as a fun little guilt trip. And then he decides to-

G: Annoying as fuck. I hate Zachariah. [C: Yeah.] I mean, we always say, like, "Should have been Uriel," and it literally should have been.

C: Yeah, Uriel's not even in the "Road So Far" of the Season 4, is he? [G: Yeah, no.] Like, I was looking out for him, and I didn't see him! Ugh.

G: It's so annoying. When does Zachariah die?

C: Season 5, I assume.

G: I mean, I assume too, but I hope he does soon. [laughing] I'm such a hater.

C: Yeah, he has to be in "Dark Side of the Moon," and then I don't remember him being mentioned as being in any other ep. And then he's like, "I will also guilt-trip Dean through the weirdest way" where he goes, "You had a chance to stop your brother, and you couldn't." And I'm a big fan of the way he words it, 'cause, like, you were actively preventing Dean from having the chance, [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] but now he's like, "I was kind enough to get angel-sigiled away so that you could stop Sam, and look at what you've done." It's fun. A Robert Singer sin to me is that during like, both of these lines that Zachariah names, like, it's on Dean's face. Like, even on the "Right, Sam?" the camera is on Dean's stupid fucking face. Like, I- literally, he was talking to Sam! Like, that was about Sam. This is about Sam's guilt. Like, shouldn't we be centering like, his guilt and his feelings about Ruby's betrayal and that, like, everything he was working towards and hurting himself over for the last season actually ended the world? Shouldn't that be a a central part of the camerawork this episode? But I guess not.

G: Yeah. Nobody ever give a shit about Sam in the camerawork. He's too tall. [both laugh] It's difficult to set up the camera!

C: I wonder if- Because, like, behind the scenes, right? Part of why Sam never drives is 'cause Jared Padalecki didn't want to learn how to drive stick shift, right? [G laughs] [G: Is that true?] Is the reason why the camera hates Sam also because Jared Padalecki's too fucking tall? Is it all that man's fault that Sam doesn't have the right writing and cinematography?

G: [laughing] I think it's because they had to move the camera. It's difficult, probably! [both laugh] The camera setup is harder!

C: Sam's only like, 3 inches taller than Dean, right? Or is it 5 inches?

G: The look is gonna be different.

C: Okay, yeah, yeah. Downwards facing-up angle on all Sam's face.

G: If Sam was shorter, we would have gotten a Sam reaction shot when the Ruby was stabbed. [both laugh]

C: This is so true. If Sam was shorter, like, we'd have canon Sastiel at this point, [G: For real.] and by "at this point," I mean 5.01. [both laugh] [G: Yeah.] But yeah, alas. So yeah. Zachariah’s, like, "Okay, let's just not have an argument about who started what. Like, whatever! Like, that's in the past. Like, let's move on, because currently, the Apocalypse is happening, and we're on the same team because we all want to kill Lucifer." And Dean is just like, "I don't trust you. Go the fuck away. I hate you." And Zachariah mentions that Lucifer is really powerful, and that we have to try to kill him before he finds his vessel. And Sam is the one who asks, "His vessel? Lucifer needs a meat suit?" Oh, Sam. Oh, Sam, the things that you do not know that you will soon know and that will be sad. Zachariah is like, "Well, he's an angel. Them's the rules." And he describes how the Apocalypse will involve, like, the Four Horsemen, and the skies burning, and that Dean will need the angels' help to stop him. Dean's just like- he calls him a two-faced douche and says that he doesn't want jack squat from him, blah blah blah. And Zachariah goes like, "You listen to me, boy. You think you can rebel against us? As Lucifer did?" You are not Uriel. [laughs] Stop trying to do like, a simile that's boring. [G laughs] And yeah. Then he notices that Dean's hand is bleeding, and Dean's like, "Oh, yeah, like, we had a plan, for in case you dicks showed up." And then, like, he moves a door to show that there is like, the angel banishing sigil drawn on it. And then he slaps it, and the three angels are all gone. And then, Dean goes, "Learned that from my friend Cas, you son of a bitch." Maybe love like, is real. Maybe it is like, a little bit real. I will admit this. [G laughs] I think-

G: I cannot believe this is the thing for you! So much happened last season, and this is the thing for you?

C: I think it is that I was quite surprised the level which they allow Dean to mourn Cas so early on in their relationship.

G: No, but the thing is, I was thinking here like, "Look at him now. He's just like, 'Aw, damn it! Cas is dead!' And like, in Season 13, he will wrap his body on the fucking morning light in the kitchen." And like, for me, the "Aw!" is like, how like, here, Cas is dead, and Dean is like, "Ugh!" But in the future, it will mean so so so so much more than that. And just the fact that you're like, "And oh my god, they're in love!" right now is like, crazy to me.

C: Huh. I guess I don't really view this like a "Cas is dead. Oh well." I think it's like, a- it makes it seem like part of why Dean is angry at Zachariah, and part of why he banishes them, is like, a revenge thing for Cas's death, [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] which I think feels like a lot. And like, in some ways, this isn't that big of a deal for Dean, given that like, they have him mourn Pamela, like, basically just as hard, even though, like, they barely knew each other.

G: [laughing] They have him mourn that best friend that he just let go!

C: [laughing] Yeah. That's true.

G: This is Dean's new best friend that he just let go.

C: So Dean just sorta is a guy that gets attached to people after they die. Like, that just seems like a Dean thing. But, I don't know. He calls Cas his friend! Like, has he done that before?

G: With Cas or with anyone? I don't think he's done it with anyone, honestly.

C: He hasn't called anyone his friend? [G: Has he?] I'm sure he calls his hunting friends-

G: He calls his hunting buddies his buddies.

C: Okay, I'm gonna check the "Sin City" transcript. [G: Maybe I'm completely lying.] No, he says- When he gets Casey in the basement, he goes, "Richie was a friend of mine." [G: Slay.] So he calls people his friends, but I don't know if he's called Cas his friend before this.

G: He hasn't called Cas his friend, no.

C: Yeah. So yeah, I don't know.

G: But they are friends! Or they were. And now Cas is back alive, and he's kind of scared of him again. [C laughs] Or is he? I mean, in Episode 3, they they do go on that wonderful date.

C: Agh. Agh. That's gonna be an interesting episode to go to, [G: It is. It's gonna be.] because I know that it's a popular Destiel episode, but I also know that textually, Dean's literally just using Cas as a Sam substitute for a day, so.

G: [laughs] No, I do think there is the aspect of this, like, "Sam substitute for a day." It could have been interesting if the show actually takes that somewhere, I feel. Like, in the moment, the episode is like, but the bigger context of the show, where it's like, "Ah, whatever." But I think it's important to me, or maybe not. [C laughs] Let's see, when we discuss it.

C: Yeah, we'll see in two weeks. After Dean delivers his line, Chuck's, standing there, goes, "This sucks ass." He's so funny. He's a delight

G: He is pretty funny. Delightful.

G: Sam and Dean, at a motel. Sam comes in, hands a little hex bag, and he's like, "Oh, here's a hex bag. It's gonna hide us from everyone." And Dean's like, "Oh, where did you get it?" And Sam hesitates and goes, "I made it." And Dean's like, "How?" And hesitates even more [C: Agh.], Sam goes, "I learned it from Ruby."

C: [pained sound] I care. I care deeply. [G: Yeah.] I hate that the way that this is played is that Sam's hesitation is just that he doesn't know how Dean will react to the mention of Ruby. [G: I don't think it is.] Like, what about Sam's relationship to Ruby? Okay, you feel like it was different?

G: Yeah. Like, Sam has complicated feelings for Ruby, of course, just fundamentally. And I think this is like, coming from that. I don't think it's like, "'Cause Dean will react negatively," but more of "I am now aware that Ruby was, you know, not the positive force that I thought she was the entire time, and bringing something that I learned from that here feels-" must feel like something. And I think Sam is trying to- that is what Sam's feeling.

C: Yeah, okay, I guess that makes sense. I don't know. I feel like the camerawork spent too much time cutting to Dean.

G: I mean, a part of it is also probably like, "Well, Dean is right about Ruby."

C: I don't know. I don't know. To me, it just felt so much like, a "Sam's still looking for forgiveness from Dean, and like, everything surrounding the Apocalypse is a sensitive topic." [G: Well, of course it is.] But like, I don't know. Like, I guess- Yeah. I don't know what it was about the camerawork that made it- or the acting? a combination of the two that made it so much like none of it was about Sam's feelings about Ruby. But like, I think, that Sam should be having feelings about Ruby, yeah.

G: I think what it could be is that when he hesitates, when he says, "I learned it from Ruby," he like, says it like, trying to be casual in a way. And like, that could be like, where you're coming from, that like, it was just about the telling Dean, it wasn't about what was being said. But I can see that. I can also see it the way I saw it, which is, eh.

C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that probably, Sam internally, like- Every time he remembers a new thing about Ruby or the way that she affected his life in the last two years, he does also probably get that shock of, "Oh, and like, all that was with an agenda." [G: Yeah, of course. Sam!] So he's like, "She taught me this really helpful thing that we're going to use to protect ourselves right now, but like, what was that for? What was her larger plan with that? Why did she do that?" [G: Yeah.] And that is a difficult thing to be going through. I'm sure sometimes, he like, forgets about the betrayal. I'm sure that they have like, some positive memories together, and sometimes he's like, [G: Yeah.] "Oh, that reminds me of this thing that Ruby said- Oh, wait."

G: No like, part of it is that Ruby did care about Sam. [C: Mm-hm.] And like, that's true. It's just the source of that caring is what changed. And so Sam could be like, "Oh, and Ruby like, took care of this and that for me, and she cared about me," and then it's always followed up with "Because." [C: Yeah.] It wasn't just like, "Because she cared about me. It's because she was trying to do this and that also." And that must suck, because it's not like you can be like, "And she was trying to trick me the whole time!" And like, she was, but also, the things she was doing was true. She was protecting Sam, from whichever, whatever.

C: She was the girl who saved his ass, yeah.

G: Yeah. She was that, and she also, like, genuinely made this hex bag for Sam and taught him how to do it. And those are things that come from a place of caring. It's just, as Ruby said, like, at the end of the episode, right, like, "Oh, so, one day, you'll understand." 'Cause she views it as like, a good thing, actually. And that's the difference.

C: Yeah, like, all of it's out of protecting Sam or whatever. But it is like, "Sam, parenthesese, (guy who raises Lucifer)." [G: Yeah.] Yeah. [G: Sam!!!] It makes me emo that the hex bags also hide you from demons [G: Yeah!], and it feels quite parallel to Cas being like, "Oh, and [overlapping] these sigils will hide you from angels, including me."

G: [sighs] [laughs] Is Destiel real? [laughs] [C: Yeah, so-] I know you hate that fucking ribs thing because Sam also got the ribs thing.

C: He did. He did. [G laughs] He did! [laughs]

G: [laughs] I know! Well.

C: At this mention of Ruby, Dean puts his gun down and says, "Speaking of, how are you doing?" And I was like, "Oh, like, it's nice that we're finally gonna talk about how Sam and Ruby had a complicated relationship, and how her betrayal probably hurt him, and she was like, the only one who was there for him, and like, kept him from like, not killing himself during the months Dean was away," but no. His next line is, "Are you jonesing for another hit of bitch blood or what?" [both laugh] What if Dean Winchester died? And he does! Thanks, Jenny. [G, laughing: Oh, god.] I just, yeah. There are a lot more like, things to be asking Sam about if he's okay other than, "Should I tie you down again?" which feels like what this is, basically. It's not good. I don't like it.

G: And also the fact that the next scene is Sam, Dean, and Bobby, and I cannot imagine Sam sitting there and being like, "And this is fine." [C: Yeah.] And the way the show interfaces with it as not being fine is so different than the way [C, laughing: Yeah.] that I think it should not fine.

C: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, yeah. It's all like, "Dean and Bobby are so nice for even thinking about forgiving Sam." Like, um, actually, I think other way around.

G: The way that they portray it as like, [dramatic, sad] "Bobby, I cannot hold it in any longer. You were right!" And it's like [both laugh], what is this?

C: What is happening? And, I don't know. Sam's like, a guy who feels guilt and hates himself a lot, so I guess it's not out of character. [G: No, yeah.] But it's just the fact that Supernatural the show also thinks that, like, this is the right- Like, Dean and Bobby were 100% in the right, Sam sucks, blah blah blah. That's the annoying part.

G: Yeah. You said this earlier to me, right? Has anyone in this show ever compromised? [:C Yeah.] Do they know what complexity is? [both laugh] Because like, it's true that Sam-

C: We should keep a fucking running tally of every argument in Supernatural, and see if any of them are resolved with "There are merits to both sides."

G: Yeah. Like, Sam could be guilty, and could be the whole time thinking, "Oh, they were right, I was wrong, whatever," and also be scared of Bobby and Dean. Like, those things can be true, both at the same time. [C: Yeah.] And the fact that, like, they completely removed that Sam is afraid of these people who enacted such like, violence against him and just turn it into [fake crying] "He feels bad about it! And we can justify that he doesn't feel scared because he feels bad!" And it's like, honestly, I think those things [C: Should enhance each other.] have the ability enhance and exemplify each other. Like, I don't know. Supernatural's weird as fuck.

C: I don't know. I don't know. Oh god, it's so annoying that all of Season 4 is Dean being like, "Sam, you're wrong, and I'm right." And then in the end, it's like, "Dean was right, and Sam was wrong," and like, now Season 4 is just the season where Sam was wrong the whole time, and you're supposed to think he's stupid the whole time. Like, that's just not an interesting thing to do with television. [laughs] I don't know why they thought that was the writing choice to be made. Whateber. Whateber. Supernatural was written by the Supernatural writers, [laughs] we all must remember this constantly.

Yeah, Sam says, like, "No like, I don't feel any like, withdrawal symptoms or anything. It feels like whoever put me on that plane cleaned me right up." And Dean says, "Supernatural methadone." [G: So Dean knows about it. So you know about this, Dean?] So Dean, you're aware of medication assisted like, withdrawal and recovery? Like, you know about this? Interesting. Interesting, Dean Winchester. Sam is looking all sad again, and he's like, trying again to do his apology. And between all of his words, the camera keeps cutting to Dean's face, like, it seems like, a little bit closer each time. Like, it's like we're waiting for Dean to explode. So Sam goes, "Dean." Dean says, "Sam" and turns away and says, "It's okay. You don't have to say anything." And goes-

G: Sam's so annoying this scene, though! [laughs] So like, I get it.

C: Like, Sam's being annoying?

G: [laughing] Yeah, just shut the fuck up, bro!

C: I think that there are ways in which he is annoying, but I understand where he is coming from. There is definitely the sense of like, "He rehearsed this on the car in his mind."

G: I think it's just for me, you know, the whole like, "Oh, what can I even say? Like, 'I'm sorry'? Like, whatever? It doesn't do it justice." Like, then why are you- like Dean said, then why are you bringing it up? Just say "I'm sorry" or "I screwed up," and whether it can do anything or nothing, at least you said it. Which is what Sam is trying to do anyway. Like, he's trying to get absolution is, I think, what's happening. He's trying to gauge, as you said, whether they're fine or not. And he also, I think, wants to hear from Dean, like, "No, Sam, it's alright." But like, here-

C: I don't think he thinks that Dean is gonna say that. I think he just wants to know where they stand, and if he's gonna get yelled at or punched. Like, he just wants it to happen sooner rather than later.

G: Yeah, but, I mean, just, I don't know. Like, for me, just like, "Oh, nothing I can do can fix anything." Then don't do anything! Shut the fuck- [laughs] I'm completely on Dean's side in this exact moment. Like, just shut up!

C: I mean, would it be more helpful if Sam didn't say this sentence? Probably. [G: Yeah.] But like, it's fine that he did. [laughs]

G: I mean, it's probably fine. But I also completely understand Dean's like, "Just shut up!"

C: Yeah, Sam goes, "Well, that's good, because what can I even say? 'I'm sorry'? 'I screwed up'? Doesn't really do it justice, you know. Look, there's nothing I can do or say that will ever make this right." And yeah, Dean does explode a bit where he goes, "So why do you keep bringing it up?"

G: The thing about Sam and Dean is like, they need to stay together right now. And like, that is the main issue. Because if this was like, any other situation, the solution is literally just leave. Like, just be apart. And then when the feelings are not running as high, or, you know, when time has passed, then maybe you can breach the conversation again. But because they're forced to be here together, I think the solution really is to just not talk about it. You understand what I mean? [C: No, I do understand-] Or am I- Do I need to go to therapy?

C: No, I think I understand what you mean. I just think for Sam, mostly, it's just that- Like, he's done this thing, and he doesn't- Like, Dean saying, like, "Okay, be normal. Don't think about it," and like, I don't think Sam was capable of being normal and not thinking about it. So he's just trying to push this towards some kind of a resolution. And I think I understand that instinct and I also understand the "let's not talk about it" instinct. [G: Of course.] I think they just both have different needs right now, and I think that that is fine.

G: Yeah, of course, I mean, I think the main perspective I have is just like, "Who is it actually helping?" And Sam is making it seem like, "Oh, this is for Dean." And like, you know, with the Bobby thing too, it's like, it's for Bobby, for Bobby's knowledge. But really, it's for Sam. [C: Yeah.] And I think that's what Dean is trying to say here also. "Why do you keep bringing it up?" And the answer is because it's for Sam.

C: The "Let's not talk about it" is for Dean also. [G: Yeah, exactly.] Like, both of them just want, like, the thing that makes them feel better to happen.

G: Yeah, but Sam is painting it like, [laughs] "This will benefit Dean," or "This will benefit Bobby to know these things."

C: I think Dean is painting his "Let's not talk about it" as [G: You think so?] "Aren't I such a forgiving, cool older brother?"

G: No, he's not! He's mad when he says it.

C: No, I mean earlier. I mean earlier in the car, [G: Oh, yeah, in the car.] when he goes, "It's okay. Let's just focus on-"

G: In the car, I do think it's for the both of them!

C: I think he is being like, "Look at how cool and understanding I am" does seem like a part of it.

G: But I do think in the car it was like, it was for the both of them. Like, "Let's just not talk about it," because there was bigger fish to fry in that moment.

C: But I think that if Sam's the one trying to initiate an apology, clearly, like, [G: He needs it.] the thing that Sam wants is to talk about it, so you can't say that it's for both of you if you're going against what Sam's trying to create in the moment.

G: That's true. I think whatever Sam wants from Dean, Dean can't give it, [C: Yeah, I agree with that.] and that's what he says at the end of the episode. So it's like, "You want this from me, and I just cannot give it. So just don't ask for it is." is an appropriate thing for Dean to want and think. [C: Yeah, I agree.] Like, "It's better for me to get what I want and you to get kind of not what you want" versus "both of us are just miserable," you know? [laughs]

C: Yeah, I think that this whole Sam and Dean and the trying to get forgiveness or ignore it thing is pretty- It reminds me of like, an episode in Season 1 of Feel Good. You said you've heard of Feel Good. Have you watched any of Feel Good?

G: I don't think I've heard of Feel Good. I have no idea what you're talking about.

C: It's Mae Martin's show, [G: Ah, okay, yeah yeah yeah.] like, semi-autobiographical. Yeah. So like, there's like, an episode, so the main character, who's like, also named Mae, is a member of Narcotics Anonymous, and they're at the "make amends" step of recovery. And, like, the issue, is like, their parents kicked them out of the house when they were 15, because, like, they were using drugs and also selling drugs out of the house and stuff like that. So they were like, homeless for some of their teenagehood because of that. But like, I guess they also did do things that hurt their parents during that time. And like, they don't really want to do the make amends step, but then someone in the group is like, "Oh, like, I said sorry to like, my daughter the other day, like, I did my make amends step, and then she apologized to me for shutting me out so much." [G: Yeah.] And then [laughing] Mae is immediately like, "Actually, yes, I'm gonna go apologize to my parents right now!"

G: "So they can apologize to me"?

C: Yeah. And okay, I don't think that's exactly what Sam is doing here. But in terms of like, what we said about how like, Dean and Bobby did some like, really awful things to him. I think it's that like, there are things that Dean needs to apologize for, but because the "starting the Apocalypse" thing is so big [G: So big.] that, like, they can never talk about that until they get past this first thing, I do think that, like, part of what Sam's doing here is like, [G: Is opening the door.] "Okay, yeah, if we open the door- If we like, try to resolve Apocalypse thing a little bit, then that's opening the door for, like, [G: Yeah.] us discussing the rest of what has happened at the end of Season 4 and like, growing from that in some way."

G: Yeah, which I think is too soon. It's too soon. It just happened. [C: It is too soon. I think it is too soon. ] That's why they need time away from each other! Two months, you guys! [laughs] Just meet up again in two months.

C: Yeah, two months, I agree. But like, I understand that instinct. Because, like, yeah, so many things have happened. A lot of things have happened to Sam. And like, I think he's highly uncomfortable and like, itchy and guilty, and he just wants it all out with. But, you know, I feel like for Dean right now, it's like, "I literally can't stay with you and think of you as my brother who I love unless I completely compartmentalize that you're responsible for the Apocalypse." So like, now they're stuck in this place where Sam has to trail behind him forever with a sad, remorseful face, while Dean clenches his jaw, [G: Yeah.] and that's just sort of what their life has to be, unless they separate, which they eventually do, which I'm glad to hear of.

G: Yeah. I do think their dynamic changes sometime later in the show. Around Season 14. [laughing] [C: God!] What a miserable timeline! No, it evolves. But I think by the time Season 14 comes-

C: We're both gonna be fucking 30 or some shit. [both laugh] Like, this podcast does not release regularly.

G: We're gonna be two Philippine presidents removed [both laugh] from when we're discussing Season 14. Oh god.

C: [laughing] But okay, in Season 14, their dynamic changes slightly. Great.

G: No no no. It evolves throughout the show, and by the time it's Season 14, I do think it's kind of unrecognizable from this already. So that's something.

C: Okay. Okay. That's good, I think, unless it's worse. [G: Unless it's bad.] Is it worse?

G: In which, I don't know. We'll find out!

C: I guess we'll find out.

G: [laughs] In two presidential terms. [C: In two presidential terms.] I think that's probably not true. Is that true? Maybe just one.

C: I don't know. We'll see.

G: Yeah, unless we oust this one soon.

C: Yeah. Oh, also, the rest of the Feel Good episode is really good and complex. I just named the part of it that was funny that was related to Supernatural. Everyone watch Feel Good. Okay. But anyway. [laughs]

After Dean does the whole yell-y thing, he turns back to Sam and goes like, "Look. All I'm saying is, why do we have to put this under a microscope? We made a mess. We clean it up. That's it." And he is putting himself in the equation, which I guess is nice, [G: Is nice.] though I think it is because he genuinely blames this all for not stopping Sam, which, like, I think all of this is stupid, and it's all the angels' fault, but whatevs. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, I mean, I do think this episode lends Dean more complexity than we have seen in the last half of Season 4. [C: Yeah, I agree.] Like, the last half of the last half, yeah. [C: Mm-hm. Yeah.] So yeah, I like it! I'm able to think of Dean and not be just annoyed the whole time. [laughs]

C: Yeah. I think I am also. Have I been nicer to Dean this episode than usual?

G: Oh yeah, you have been! [C: Yay!] You could have easily been like, "Oh, shut the fuck up, Grey," [laughs] which I think, there are times in the podcast where you wanted to do. But yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. So they decide that they're just gonna act like this is a normal hunt and try to find the devil.

G: Well, Mark Pellegrino's here. [both laugh] It's the worst thing that has ever happened.

C: I found Nick, like, an okay character this episode. [G: Nick is an okay character.] I think it's 'cause I don't know that much about Mark P so I'm able to look at his face without throwing up.

G: The thing is, Nick is a fine character. Lucifer is a fine character, especially this season. It's more of an overstaying your welcome situation. [C: Yeah, okay.] Like, Nick in whatever fucking season they do the Lucifer-Nick thing is extra annoying, because it's like, we don't care about this guy anymore. Just get rid of the guy. Like, just kill the v- I don't know. The vessel's supposed to be- why is the vessel not dead? And it's it's that kind of feeling of like, ugh, I understand that sometimes horrible people are in TV shows. [laughs] God knows I understand it. But [laughing] it's just, there's no reason for Mark Pellegrino to have been in Supernatural as long as he was. Especially because Supernatural is a show that does the whole convention shebang. It feels even more egregious to me.

C: 'Cause it forces Mark Pellegrino to be at conventions?

G: Well, because he is. I don't think it forces him. [C laughs] I'm sure they make a lot of money out of that.

C: Well, [laughs] it forces Mark Pellegrino to inflict himself upon convention-goers.

G: Like, I think it's more of a-

C: Excuse for him to be more of a public figure and continue making money? Yeah.

G: Yeah. And also like, it's just, especially because Supernatural has such a weird thing going on with its fanbase, [C: Yah.] and we've talked about the exploitative nature of the everything. [laughs] But like, specifically with this one, you are putting your fans in the same room as this guy [C: Yeah.], and it just feels egregious to me.

We are going to, throughout this episode, follow a man named Nick. And he's sad, he's lonely, he's alone all the time. Later on, we find out that it's because his family was killed.

C: Yeah. I just thought his wife died in childbirth or something, so like, later, when it was like, "Oh, like, that man broke into your home and slaughtered your family," I was booing a lot because I feel like your wife dying in childbirth is like, it's like a common enough [G: Yeah.] really shitty thing that happens that can make you like, doubt God or whatever. And like, it isn't a direct fucking parallel to John Winchester. [laughs] [G: Oh yeah, you're right!] But then they made it into a whole thing, and that was annoying.

G: It's revealed in season something whatever that he actually killed his wife and kid, I think.

C: Like, Nick did or Lucifer did?

G: Um, [laughing] I'm not sure.

C: Those are very different situations!

G: No, the plot of his time there was he's looking for who killed his wife and kid. And then I think at some point, it was either revealed that he did it, or [laughing] that Lucifer did it.

C: What- [laughing] Those are very- What do you mean? Like, he forgot?

G: [laughing] The whole point is it don't matter because he still wants to get back together with Lucifer. [C: He what?] He wants to get back together with Lucifer.

C: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think it must mean that he did it, right? In order to escape the guilt of it?

G: No, no, no, he like, forgot. So he's looking for who killed his wife and kids. He finds a guy, tortures the guy, etc, but eventually, I don't know. I think it's revealed that it's not actually the guy, it's him. [both] Or it's some guys who's possessed by Lucifer. [C laughing]

C: Okay. Well. Once we're 35 years old, we'll find out.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Oh god. So, I don't know. He like, is sleeping on the bed, and then he wakes up, and he raises his hands. It's bloody, and his entire body. He takes off the blanket.

C: Yeah, and before that, there was like, a bunch of wind rattling the gates of his house in the night. It is quite creepy, like, all of it.

G: That thing was crazy. The blood on the bedsheet? Insane. [C: Uh-huh.] I love it. It is a good moment. [C: Yeah.] And then he gets out of the bed, turns on his lamp, and it's clean. No blood. And he's just like, "Okay, let's get it together. Let's get it together." And also, when he lies down, his wife, Sarah, is over on his side and bloody, and she says, "It's you, Nick. You're special. You're chosen."

G: Oh god! [C: Oh god!] This episode is just- scene after scene, annoys me to hell and back. Or is it?

C: Eric Kripke and women are a bad combination.

G: Yeah. We go to- Is this a hotel room, or is this just her house? [C: I think that's just her bedroom.] I suppose it must be her house.

C: Yeah, yeah. The thing about Becky is that like, I think when Danica was watching Supernatural, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, don't Chuck and Becky like, get together?" She was like, "What do you mean? Becky's like, a kid. Becky's a teenager." [laughs] And I was like, "No, I'm pretty sure she's like, an adult woman." [G: I don't think so.] Like, now that I watch this episode, I can fully see why you would interpret her as like, a teenager.

G: Why?

C: She calls him like, Mr. Edlund, her bedroom's very pink. Like, they cast full adults to play teenagers in Supernatural all the time. I would like, fully believe that her parents are downstairs right now, and like, she's gonna take the SAT next week.

G: Let's say somebody, a fucking stranger who is also a writer that you know, calls you. You don't call him Mr. Edlund?

C: No?

G: That's cra- Why? What do you call him? [C: I would just call him-] [laughing] If Neil Gaiman calls you right now, would you not say, "Hello, Mr. Gaiman"?

C: [laughing] I would call him Neil Gaiman. [G laughs]

G: Well, I think that's incredibly rude. Maybe that's on you. [laughs]

C: I think first name culture is a lot bigger in the US. [G: Yeah, of course, yeah.] Like, I don't know. Like, I would call like, my CEO "John." [laughs]

G: That's crazy. You also don't call any of your profs "Prof"s, right?

C: Oh, no, no. That's like, Jessica, or whatever. That's Ann-Marie.

G: Yeah. Well, I think maybe for like, an American or like, a first name culture society, this is like, a teenage whatever. But it's not, though, is it?

C: Yeah, I know she's an adult woman, but like, [G: You can understand the perspective, yeah.] I feel like in this episode, yeah, if I didn't know anything about her later plot, I think that I'd be like, "I don't know. She's like, a college student, maybe younger?"

G: There is like, an episode that they do, the last time she's there, where they're like, "And this is their apology to the audience."

C: Yeah, like, she's married and she has two kids. [laughs]

G: It's in Season 15, right?

C: Yeah, it's "Atomic Monsters."

G: And she's normal, but she has a Sam and Dean Funko Pop or whatever. [both laugh] Truly a fucking show. She is writing fanfiction. [C: Ugh. Ugh.] It's so horrible!

C: I don't understand why anything happens the way it happens, but especially not on Supernatural. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. She's writing fanfiction, specifically [C: Wincest smut.] Sam/Dean fanfiction. Horrible! I don't- You know, Supernatural, what is it with their fascination that the audience is fascinated by this.

C: Yeah, I don't- I feel like there are ways to interpret this as just like, "We're trying to tell the Wincesties to knock it off," and I think that is probably part of it- [G: No, it's definitely!] but I think that engaging in this way just makes people go, "tee-hee, just like me for real" and then ignore the "knock it off" part. [laughs]

G: No, I mean, like, as was implied by the "They fix Becky later as an apology," like, this is insulting, isn't it? It's supposed to be. [C: Yeah.] And it's supposed to mock your audience. And it's just, Supernatural loves mocking their audience.

C: I mean, this is a subset of the audience I understand mocking. But yeah, I just feel like you just don't need to engage.

G: Also, Supernatural, I think, thinks its audience is all Wincest shippers. [C laughs] Because like, that gay couple in that thing, they play Sam and Dean, and they're together, and that's a Wincest thing. And then, like, what's her name? [C: Marie.] Marie, who is allegedly a Samgirl [C: And is not.] and a Destiel shipper and a Wincest shipper. Like, okay! [laughs] Is this the perception here, that just everyone who has read Supernatural also ships them? I mean, Charlie has read Supernatural. [C, laughing: And she doesn't.] She doesn't. She just says that Cas seems helpful and dreamy, so I don't know. Was it because because Charlie was a real person [C: And a lesbian.] and they were like, "Well, it's weird for us to do that to a real person, like, a real character." [C: Maybe.] My god.

C: Yeah, I'm not sure. I think it's just like, they want to make fun of fans, and those are the fans [G: To make fun of.] that like, are the easiest to make fun of, which I get, but yeah.

G: But there is a point where they're not making fun of the fans, or it's irrelevant to the making fun. Like, was it really necessary that the two LARPers that they were making fun of also happened to be gay lovers? Like, was that necessary? I don't think so.

C: [laughing] Yeah, that was mostly a homophobia thing, I think.

G: And like, Marie, was it necessary for Marie to be a Wincest shipper? Not at all. She's already making a musical! That's already embarrassing enough. [both laughing]

C: God, you're such a hater!

G: And also, I keep on reiterating this because every single time, I think it's the most insane thing ever. They do an implied "Marie ships Wincest" thing, and then they do an implied "Marie ships Destiel thing," [C: Yeah.] and then [laughing] Jensen Ackles reacts- looks at the camera over the Destiel thing. And it's like, okay. Supernatural is so fucking weird about its fucking incest situation.

C: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. I just don't know what the point of Becky is.

G: Right now? Yeah, it's similar to the point of the writer in 4.18. The, what's that? The producer? The publisher? of 4.18. [C: Yeah, the publisher.] Same deal.

In the middle of it all, Carver Edlund calls, and it's Chuck! And she opens it, she's very excited. Why does he have her number? And why is everything happening?

C: He mentions that she sent him a bunch of letters [G: Oh yeah!], so I'm assuming she ends each one with like, "Call me," and then her number.

G: Yeah. Chuck is just like, "Hi, Becky." And, you know, she's like, "You got my letters. And my marzipan!" [laughs] And Chuck goes, "Yeah, um, yummy!" [laughs] He is funny. But yeah. Becky says-

C: How do they end up dating? Like, what is that? I feel like I'm gonna hate it, whatever it is.

G: Did they- I don't think that's true! I have no recollection of them dating at all.

C: Well, they did, so that's gonna be bad to look at.

G: Well. And she says, "I'm your number one fan! I'm samlicker81." And she says, "I'm webmistress of morethanbrothers.net." Yeugh. And well, Chuck is like, "Yeah. You're my number one fan, which is why I am contacting you, because you're the only one who will believe me." And he says like, something something, "I'm being watched," something something, "Can you get a message to Sam and Dean?" And Becky goes, "Look, Mr. Edlund. Yes, I'm a fan, but I really don't appreciate being mocked. I know that Supernatural's just a book, okay? I know the difference between fantasy and reality." [C laughs] And Chuck just goes, "Becky, it's all real." And she goes, "I knew it!" Okay, I understand why you would think that she is a teenager.

C: Like, she is like, endearing during this scene, I think.

G: Yeah.

G: She pulls up into the motel room and like, Sam and Dean just go to the thing like, with guns out. Good for them.

C: Wait, wait, wait, you forgot about climate change denier Dean!

G: [laughing] Oh, yeah! Oh my god! Yeah, you're right!

C: [laughing] The most important part of the episode!

G: So in the television, they're talking about "Oh, can you explain an earthquake, hurricane, multiple tornadoes, all at the same time, all around the globe?"

C: That's just every week nowadays, honestly. [G: Yeah.] Like, it sucks. But that is how it is.

G: Yeah. And he says- the whatever expert they invited says, "Two words: carbon emissions." And Dean goes, "Yeah, right, Wavy Gravy."

C: Insane. Absolutely insane.

G: Slay. This is is climate change denial [laughs] that Supernatural is doing in 2009. [C: Yeah.] What was the atmosphere of climate change denial in 2009? Pretty big, I would say.

C: Yeah, pretty big, and apparently, Eric Kripke was in on it. 'Cause like, this is clearly like- [laughs] this scene probably did do some actionable harm in the world when it happened, [G: Yeah.] and like there were people watching it who were climate change deniers were like, "See? Even my hero, Dean Winchester, thinks it's a stupid fringe theory." So like-

G: [laughing] Well, I mean, they also did say that the demons did 9/11, so. [both laugh] Not particularly good track record regarding everything. [C: Yeah, yeah.] It was pretty funny. The first bit, right? They do the radio thing where they're like, "Oh, there's like, a fucking earthquake, and also the volcano, and also swine flu." Like, literally a month before the pandemic hit the Philippines, all of my relatives were at our house because the volcano exploded, and also like, the fucking earthquake, because of that, was also happening. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] So like, when that was happening, I was like, "Wow, just like 2020 for real." [laughs] [C: Yeah.] And it literally was. And that's just how it is now. It was in 2009, and it is now 2024. [C: Mm-hm.] Been a while. That's truly a while. [C: Been a while, yeah.] My god.

They go to the door. Becky is knocking, and she comes in, and she's very excited. [C: Yeah, hyperventilating and such.] Yeah, Sam says, "You okay, lady?" which made me realize that I have started using the word "lady" in my life, [laughs] and I think it's because of Supernatural.

C: Yeah, I do notice that you say it a lot more than I do, at least.

G: Yeah, I do say "lady" a lot now. Well, and Becky's like, "Sam, is it really you?" And she's so excited. She, at this point, has she been holding on Sam's chest? I think she has.

C: No, I think she starts after "Sam, is it really you?"

G: Yeah. But she holds Sam's chest. She goes, "And you're so firm."

C: Well. This is bad to look at.

G: Yeah, I do feel bad for Sam, and also Dean later. Becky says, "No, you don't know me, but I know you. You're Sam Winchester. And you're-" And she looks over at Dean, and she goes, "Not what I'm pictured." [C: So true.] Oh, to be perfectly clear, when I said, "I feel bad for Dean later" [both laughing]-

C: [laughing] Not because of this. Not because of this. Because of Meg.

G: I just realized what that sounds like. "Poor Dean, Becky thinks he's uggo!"

C: [laughing] Yeah, being sexually harassed and being called ugly are the exact same thing. [G laughs] I mean, sometimes they do come hand in hand, but yeah. [G: Yeah.] I mean, thank god we finally have, like, a Samgirl who thinks that Dean is ugly as fuck. Sorry that it came with sexual harassment of Sam.

G: Anyway, she says, "Mr. edlund told me where you are, and told me to get you a message." And she says, "Oh, the angels are watching over him. It's a nice change to the mythology, by the way. The demon stuff was getting a bit old."

C: She's so true and correct about that. That is the case.

G: Yeah. Becky tells them that Chuck said "The Michael sword is on Earth, the angels lost it." and that it is on a castle on a hill made of 42 dogs. And Dean's like, "What? Whatever." And yeah. Becky is like, "It doesn't make sense, but it's what he said, and I memorized every word. For you." And, you know, she's back to holding Sam's chest. And Sam just goes, "Can you- Can you stop touching me?" And Becky just goes, "No." Crazy!

C: Boo. Boo. Dislike. Thumbs down.

C: You know what I thought about this scene was last episode, you were talking about the St. Romauld [C: Yeah.] and how like, Ruby and Sam, was there a point where they could have been like that, or Sam becoming the boyking of Hell, would that be what he would be? And I'm like, "He's that right now to Becky." [laughs]

C: Yeah, that is true. That is what's happening. [G: Yeah.] It's just, I don't know. I just know that in Season 7, doesn't she fucking drug him and try to force him to marry her? [G: Yeah.] Like, that's coming up, and I don't want to see it.

G: Yeah. But they give her a fucking- [laughing] They make her have Funko Pops in the future! [C laughs] 'Cause Supernatural's so fucking terrible. I mean, I do understand what they were trying to do with the Season 15 thing, and I wouldn't fault them for that. It's Season 7 I should fault them for. [C: Yeah, yeah.]

C: We come to a time later in the day, still in the motel. Bobby arrives, as you say, in the [both] Impala.

G: Yeah. Commercial for Chevy, 15 years long.

C: So he comes in, and he hugs both Sam and Dean.

G: I was afraid, because he hugs Dean, right? [C: First, yeah.] And I was so afraid he won't hug Sam. But he gives a hefty hug to both, and Sam seemed happy to be there.

C: Yeah, Sam seemed happy to see him. They make some joke about Becky existing, and he calls Sam "Romeo." Ugh. It's annoying the way that Supernatural treats sexual assault as just not serious when women perpetrate it.

G: I mean, [laughs] also not when men perpetrate it. [C: That's true.] It depends. There were times when they take it seriously, like with Jo and Meg, but, I don't know. It's just- it's not a consistent thing for them.

C: They start talking about the Michael sword stuff. Bobby has this lore book with paintings of Michael in it, and Bobby calls Michael "tough" and Dean goes, "You kidding me? Tough? That guy looks like Cate Blanchett." [G: Slay.] Which, that means something to you, right? Was she in Carol?

G: [laughs] Why are you just assuming that means something to me because it mentions Cate Blanchett? And of course it does. Yeah, she was in Carol. She is [laughs] very important to me. [both laugh]

C: Cool. Well, Bobby says that, you know, "Michael's really tough, he was the one who defeated Lucifer during the Fall using a specific sword, and if we find it, then we can defeat Lucifer with it." And Bobby tells everyone, "Hey, let's split up and start reading shit." And Sam starts heading over to the books, and then he just stops. And he's just staring off into the distance. And Bobby goes, "Kid, you alright?" And Sam, you know, he just needs catharsis, [G: So bad, yeah.] whether that be like, yelling and cutting off or like, forgiveness, from anyone, and Dean couldn't do it for him, and Bobby's the next closest thing to family he has. And also, last time they saw each other, like, he did tell Bobby to shoot him in the heart.

G: Yeah, and also knocked Bobby out, so.

C: Yeah, and then knocked Bobby out. Yeah, there definitely should be some of that there, but their re-meeting and their hug was very angst-less, but I guess it's it's coming back. He turns around to Bobby, and he goes- Okay, wait, wait, wait. If Bobby didn't know- So what? Dean was just like, "Lucifer got out of Hell. I don't know how it happened. It just did. Can you come over?" [both laugh] Like, that was what happened?

G: [laughing] Probably, probably. No, no, no, I think it was like, maybe "Sam killed Lilith, but it was too late. Lilith broke the final seal." But there's a different thing between that and "Lilith is the final seal!" [laughs] as Cas says.

C: Which Sam says as well.

G: Yeah. [laughs] I'm so obsessed with that line delivery.

C: You are. You've said it a lot. [laughs] Is it as important to you as Cate Blanchett is?

G: [laughs] You know, I think Cate Blanchett would be a little bit more important.

C: Yeah, yeah. Good to know. Alright, I'll get you a Cate Blanchett body pillow [G laughing] and not a "Lilith is the final seal!" body pillow for your birthday, then.

G: [laughing] Thank you! I appreciate it.

C: No prob. So anyway, yeah, so Sam goes, "No, actually. Bobby, this is all my fault. I'm sorry." And the camera's cutting to Dean, like, you know, like, shaking his head and looking tense and being like, "No, Sam, don't say it."

G: I mean, he doesn't say, "No, Sam, don't say it." He just goes, like, "Sam! Stop-" like, he literally is like, "Stop!"

C: Yeah. Well, after Sam goes, "Lilith didn't break the final seal. Lilith was the final seal." Dean goes, "Sam, stop it." [G: Yeah.] And, you know, Sam finally says, "I killed her, and I set Lucifer free." And Bobby is like, "You what?" even though that was- I mean, I know it's a demon. But like-

G: I didn't.

C: I think, okay, I didn't know yet. I knew at the very beginning of the next scene. 'Cause Bobby said that John was right, [laughs] and I was like, "Wait. He's possessed." [both laugh] [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I know that it's a demon, but it is- this is like, the thing that even regular Bobby is mad at Sam about; he just like, forgives him for it. And it's like, you and Dean were literally trying to do the exact same thing! [G: Yeah.] I just, I don't know why Sam is getting blamed for this when it's literally just whoever got there first.

G: No no no. I don't think Bobby was mad at Sam for killing Lilith. It was just like, for not listening. That's a different thing. If he-

C: If Sam listened, then the world would have also ended.

G: The listening does not just about killing Lilith, at least to Bobby and Dean's perspective. It's about the demon blood. It's about the blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

C: Okay, but they're wrong about all of that.

G: No, exactly. But I do think it matters that Bobby is not mad at Sam for killing Lilith and also just not mad at Sam at the end of this episode, you know?

C: Well, he says that he is like, fine with Sam but that he deserves a medal for it, so clearly, he thinks that there's things that-

G: It's a jest. It's a joke.

C: Yes, it is a joke, but [G: It's to lighten up the mood.] it's not a joke that comes out of nowhere. [G: From nowhere.] Like, it is still like a "you know that you did something wrong."

G: Yeah, but I think I choose to think of it a little bit more benevolently than that.

C: But like, it does come from somewhere, though. Like, where does the benevolence come in?

G: It comes from the general, like, "it's this big, massive thing that happened." But I don't think Bobby thinks Sam wrong of it. Like, I feel like, I don't know.

C: I think he does. I think he just also cares about Sam.

G: Yeah, okay.

C: Okay, so, right. Your earlier point was that Sam not listening was about him leaving when Bobby tried to stop him?

G: No, it was like, the demon blood. It was the before that. It was the before that.

C: It was just drinking demon blood?

G: Yeah, probably. [C: Okay.] I don't know. Bobby's stance on this entire thing is so confusing [C: Yeah.] because we never know anything from him independently. It's always like, him being like, "Dean, I understand that you're mad. Hell, I'm mad, too. But don't be mad." [C: Like, mad about what?] [laughs] And it's like, we never get like, a perspective from Bobby that's not like, "Sam, I understand you're mad at Dean. But can you stay in the room where we're torturing you to death?" [both laughing] Like, I don't- who knows, even, what the fuck is going on with Bobby? [C: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.] This is why when he stands up here and he says, "Don't ever call me again," you're like, "Ah, that's reasonable. [C: Yeah.] Bobby would say that." It's because you don't know. Later, when he goes, "Oh, Sam, everything that I said a while ago, just know that that was the demon talking. I would never cut you out." And you're like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense also." Because both of those things can be true, pretty much.

C: [laughing] Honestly, later, when he said that, I was like, "That doesn't make sense." [both laugh] [G: Well.] But yeah. I don't know. I feel like [laughing] Bobby really does only love Sam as a coworker. [G laughs] But, you know, maybe not. Maybe he just shows love in ways that I don't understand.

Sam goes, "You guys warned me about Ruby, the demon blood, but I didn't listen. I brought this on." Did they really- Did Bobby warn Sam about Ruby?

G: Literally, Bobby does not know anything or give a shit about anything.

C: I don't think Bobby spoke to Sam in like, all of Season 4 besides to give him cases and then to go, "Can you please stay in the room where we're torturing you to death?"

G: I mean, the only time I remember Bobby saying anything to Sam was like, in the fucking whatever the fuck that was. The siren episode? "Sex and Violence"?

C: Where he's like, "It's not your fault that you were temporarily gay. That was the siren."

G: Yeah, [laughs] to Dean. That's so- [laughing] [C: Yeah.] Funny as fuck show.

C: Yeah. He goes, "But I didn't listen. I brought this on," and that does make me sad, 'cause, you know, again, like, the ending of Season 4 has made the entirety of Season 4 the "Sam is stupid" season instead of the "it's complex" season, which I think is what it is. [G: Yeah.] And yeah. Now, it's just like, "You guys were completely right the whole time, and I was just stupid the whole time, and now everything's my fault." Like, they were also wrong! Like, you guys had the same goal. You just had different ways of going about it.

G: You succeeded at being wrong! Like, that's what it is. He succeeded at being wrong.

C: And maybe it's like, okay, if he stayed inside the panic room, and then Dean and Bobby went after Lilith, [G: They would have failed to be wrong.] they wouldn't have succeeded, they would have just been killed, [G: Love that!] so that it wouldn't be "the world is over," it would just be "Dean and Bobby are dead." But like, I feel like for Sam, that's not considered a better outcome, necessarily, for Sam. Like, okay, how could this have played out such that, like, no one kills Lilith, and all of them are still alive?

G: I don't know. I mean, the angels are really forcing it, so, kill the angels? [laughs]

C: Yeah, so it's like, what? Like, Sam stays in the panic room and then the angels nab Dean, and then Cas tells Dean- Well, I mean, the angels would not have let Sam stay.

G: Nabbed Dean at all, yeah. Well, they wouldn't have gotten Dean at all if Sam wasn't going about trying to kill Lilith, because the point of Dean being there was to make sure Sam [C: Kills Lilith uninterrupted.] is unstopped, yeah.

C: Yeah, so I feel like there was not a way. And I guess from Dean's perspective, it's like, "Well, if he'd listened to my voicemail!" [laughs] is like, the only leg he has to stand on. Like, what? I don't think Bobby knows the specifics of any of that shit. [G: Yeah.] I guess the Bobby inside the demon is also hearing about this for the first time, and we don't really know what he thinks, except that he concludes that he's still gonna be part of Sam's family. Yeah, and we'll we'll probably never know what he thinks because he's a character without much internality, I think. [G: Hell yeah!] Hell yeah. Bobby goes, "You're damn right you didn't listen. You were reckless and selfish and arrogant." And Sam goes, "Sowwyyy!" [both laugh]

G: He literally puts on his sowwy face and says, "Sowwy!" [laughs]

C: And Bobby just says that like, "This kind of thing doesn't get forgiven. And if we like, stop the world from ending, I want you to lose my number. You understand me?" And Sam just like, nods. Yeah. This wasn't his ideal outcome, but I think that this is like, sort of partly what he wanted. Like, he knows where he stands now. [G: Yeah.] And he's like, "Okay. There's an old church nearby. Maybe I'll go read some lore books there."

G: There's a fucking thing that I read a while ago that I have saved on my journal, and I have no idea where it's from, but it goes like, "And nobody ever forgives me, and nobody ever screams loud enough." [C: Aw.] And like, here, like, Sam, he wants someone to either forgive him or to scream loud enough. And like, this is Bobby screaming loud enough. And like, yeah, it's not good. It's not a good outcome. But it must be satisfying in some way, just to have someone acknowledge it and react to it.

C: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause he thinks that he should be punished for this, [G: Yeah.] and Dean isn't doing it, and Dean isn't forgiving him, so he's like, "Yeah, there we go. There's me getting punished."

G: Every time Robert Singer is the director, and I'm like, "It's about the blockings!" I do get pissed at myself. But like, I do like the blockings of this scene that Dean is like, on Bobby's side. Like, Dean is standing away from them, but like, every time the camera pans, he's not on Sam's camera, but he is on Bobby's. And they also bring up a lot of the like, "Bobby's your surrogate dad" thing this episode, right? Like, Meg says it later. [C: Yeah.] And I do- this is why the concept of like, Bobby and John as characters that are, you know, parallels to each other is brought up in my head. [C: Yeah.] Because we know from the Stanford fight that Dean didn't stand up for Sam and took took John's side, and in a way that's, I mean, it could have been just like this. Like, Dean being like, "Sam, just don't tell Dad!" And Sam telling Dad anyway. And Dean being like, "Well, what can we do now? We're already here." which is much of the vibe of what he is doing here this scene. Because, like, the moment Bobby was like, "Oh, Sam, you're, like, lose my number, whatever." It's not like Dean can say anything to defend Sam at that point, especially not when Sam is interfacing with it as "it's all my fault." So it's like, "well, it's just how the situation is right now." And I think of that as-

C: And I also think Dean does think it's all Sam's fault, too, though. [G: I think there is a difference-] Like, he doesn't say anything to defend Sam because there is nothing that he believes that like, would help Sam.

G: There's a difference between Dean thinking it's Sam's fault and Bobby thinking it's Sam's fault, to Dean. Like, as I said earlier, it's like, you know, when you're a kid, and you screw up, and your older sister's like, "You're a fucking messed up person in every way, shape, and form!" [C laughs] but won't tell your parents about it because, like, they don't want your mom to get mad at you.

C: Yeah, it's like a "the punishment will be disproportionate if it is meted out by our parents."

G: Yeah. Yeah. And this scene feels like that to me and reminded me of the Stanford fight and reminded me of that fight when Sam "stop the car!" [laughs] and then stormed out, and John was there, and they were like, fighting at each other, and Dean actually stood in the middle of it and took Sam's side. And, I don't know. Like, I think later on in the episode, when Dean says, "I just don't think we can ever be the brothers that we were before," a part of that is "I couldn't even stand up in front of Bobby like I did with Dad in the past for you." Agh. It makes me emo! [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Whatever. Well, it's not whatever. It means something to me, but also, whatever.

C: Yeah. Also, the way Sam words this confession to Bobby is very- like, he doesn't even say, like, "But I didn't know she was the final seal." Like, the way he puts it is like, [laughing] "I totally knew, and then I totally killed her on purpose."

G: No, you know how like, people will take therapy talking points and apply it to everything, and it's like, well, that shouldn't apply to your situation. I feel like Sam is doing the whole like, "Don't make excuses, just take accountability." [C: Yeah, exactly.] And it's like, well, there are excuses. [C: I think context matters.] And also, that's not what happened. Yeah, so. There is this assumption now that when you apologize and you say, like, a reasoning behind it, that it's less a sincere apology. And I feel like Sam is applying that in this situation. It's like, well, you shouldn't.

C: Yeah. Or, I mean, maybe he just feels so guilty that he thinks it doesn't matter what the details are [G: Yeah.] when I think it does matter what the details are. Yeah, so when Sam heads out, Bobby turns back to Dean and exchanges like, a look with him, and to me it read like a lot like a "Can you fucking believe this guy?" kind of look. Is that how you read it also?

G: Bobby's look to Dean or Dean's look to Bobby? [C: Yeah, Bobby's look to Dean.] Oh. Actually, I didn't really think much about it. [laughs] Have you noticed how this entire scene that Bobby confronts Sam, I just absolutely DGAF about Bobby? But also, Bobby was a demon, so that's not Bobby, so it's-

C: Yeah. But it seems like a mutual "Can you fucking believe this guy?" look to me, which made me quite angry at Dean. 'Cause-

G: I mean, later on, Bobby does say things, and Dean-

C: And Dean is like, "That's a bit too far." But yeah, I think at this point, Dean believes that they're sharing a mutual "Can you fucking believe this guy?" about Sam. Dean has plenty of "Can you fucking believe this guy?"s about Sam. Like, with fucking Travis in "Metamorphosis," and I think also with Gordon at some points.

G: That is, I think, the worst thing you can do to family. "Can you fucking believe it?" them. [C: Mm.] You're supposed to believe it! [both laugh] That's your kid, you spend all your time with them! [C laughs] Yeah, so rude.

C: So Sam is gone, so it's Bobby and Dean talking, and Bobby goes, "I never would have guessed that your daddy was right." And I immediately write in my notes, "Wait, is Meg possessing him?" It wasn't Meg. It was a random other demon. But yeah. [G: Hell yeah!] Hell yeah.

G: It is crazy that all the demons have similar talking points. [laughs] And also the angels too. I don't know. They have their own talking points. Literally, like-

C: Is demon radio a thing? How do all the demons have the same information?

G: Yeah. And also, like, it's just fascinating to me that both the angels and the demons, when they want to tell Dean, specifically, something, it's John that they bring up immediately. [C: Hm, yeah.] Like, even Cas, right? Like, that's his talking point.

C: How does the demon possessing Bobby know this? Like, maybe Ruby on demon radio was talking about this like, a while ago?

G: I mean, Meg is there. [C: Yeah, but was that-] And this is Meg's coworker.

C: But was like, Meg around for the save him or kill him aspect? [G: Yeah.] Oh, actually, she was. She "Born Under a Bad Sign"ed him. Hell yeah. What a fun episode! Besides the sexual assault, which is sort of like, an attitude that one must maintain whenever Meg is on screen. Ugh. [G: Yeah.] It's always like, this is the funniest, most charismatic, fun-voiced character ever, but also they made sexual assault one of her main character traits. Yikes.

G: When she kisses Cas, that was Cas taking advantage of the situation, right? Because he throws her down.

C: I thought she was trying to get his angel blade. [G: Sword. Not sword.] Wait, which kiss are we talking about?

G: In Season 5. Is there another one?

C: There's the holy fire one where they don't touch lips.

G: That's not a kiss! Wait, have they ever kissed? [C: They kiss-] In Season 6. [C: Is that in Season 6?] Or Season 5. I have no idea. I just recall the one where he's against the wall or something, or she's against the wall. I'm not sure. But there is a wall.

C: It's in Season 6 because it involves them demanding Crowley give Sam's soul back as part of the episode.

G: No, yeah, so they do actually kiss. That was not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about Season 5. [C: Yes.] And they don't kiss in that, [laughing] Cas just throws her into the fire.

C: It's so good! They're in love for real.

G: [laughing] They should've gotten together. I've changed my entire mind.

C: They should've fucked raw.

G: Streets, even. On the streets.

C: In the streets, even. Yeah. I thought you were a Megstiel hater.

G: I know! But apparently, I changed my mind.

C: [laughs] Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Maybe when we're 25, we'll figure it out.

G: This is my Destiel for you. You're like, "I hate Destiel!" [laughs] And now you're like, "Are they in wuv?" [C laughs] And then me in 5.01, also the same mindset.

C: Meg and Cas haven't even interacted yet.

G: But they will. [C: They will.] And it will be important, or maybe not. I don't know.

C: It will be important. [laughs] It will.

So yeah, okay, you're right like, this is Meg's coworker, and she gave him the primer on the John-Dean relationship being so fucked up and the John-Sam relationship also being so fucked up. So yeah, Bobby goes like, "Oh, like, your daddy was right, like, about your brother. What John said, like, you save Sam or kill him, maybe..." And Dean's looking up like, disbelievingly, and says pretty stiffly, "Maybe what?" And Bobby goes, "Maybe we shouldn't have tried so hard to save him. He ended the world. And, like, neither of us were strong enough to stop him, so like, your dad was right!" Dean doesn't say anything to counteract this, but I mean, it's clear that he disagrees, but he's not brave enough to say anything about it. And he starts like, rummaging through this bag, and I thought that like, he was going for the holy water because he, like me, could tell that Bobby was possessed. But no [G: No, it's completely unrelated.], he's just doing a completely separate thing.

G: I'm surprised that you knew immediately that this was a demon. I didn't until Bobby like, pushed Dean against fucking wall. Like, when he slapped Dean, [laughs] I still was like, "Oh, what's happening?" [both laugh]

C: You were just like, "That's just a regular day in the household, yeah."

G: "Bobby's real pissed right now. I don't know why." [both laugh]

C: But yeah, he's he doesn't care about what Bobby said that much. He finds his card inside of John's things, and it's the address for a storage facility, and it's Castle Storage, 42 Rover Hill. So, castle on a hill of 42 dogs.

G: What is rover? A dog? Or is that a name for a dog?

C: Rover's a common name for a dog.

G: Ah. Wasn't there an American president named Rover?

C: Grover.

G: Grover. As in Elmo? [laughs] [C: As in Elmo.] Yeah, okay.

C: So Bobby goes, "Oh, so you think John had the Michael sword all this time?" And Dean's like, "I don't know. Probably." And Bobby goes, "Okay. Good enough for me." And then he knocks Dean through a wall and then slams him and shit, and then his eyes go black. Yay!

G: And then I was like, "Is he a demon?" And then at this point, I was still like, "Is he? Is he? Is that what's happening?" And his eyes turn black, and I'm like, "I'm so stupid." [laughing] What's wrong with me? This is a show I've watched several times, allegedly.

C: Yeah. Didn't I send like, "I hope Bobby dies. And he does. Thanks, Dick Roman." and then "nevermind" while I was watching this?

G: I don't know. I thought maybe you just got endeared by him, like, halfway through. [C laughs]

C: Maybe. Maybe. I assumed that you would already know, so it wouldn't be a spoiler if I said, "nevermind." But apparently it wasn't a spoiler because you just so strongly did not know that you didn't even think of it. [both laugh]

G: Yeah! It is fascinating to me that, like, you would message- you usually watch the episodes before me, so you would message me like, "Oh, I hate Dean this episode!" and the whole time, before I watch the episode, I'm like, "Why? Why?" and I have no idea always. Like, I never have any idea what's gonna happen. [C laughs] [C: For realsies.] Also I just did not expect like, Bobby's disability arc, as people would say, to start this episode. I thought it would be like, a bit later on. Although it does make sense, because Cas does come in and like, tells Bobby, "I can't heal you," like, next episode. So of course it's gonna be here. But.

G: Bobby is beating Dean up some more when a couple of demons enter, and it's [C: Megmegmegmegmeg!] Meg 2.0. [C screams quietly] Honestly, she's such a slay character. Like, her look is so slay. [C: Yeah.] The way she speaks is so wonderful. [C: It's so good.] And like, when we did Season 1, I don't think I ever really realized how much Meg 1 and Meg 2 speak the same. [C: Yeah, me neither.] Like, I mean, in my head, Meg was Meg 2.0 when we were watching Season 1, but I never connected the dots that, like, they have the exact same cadence. And it is a bit of a shock given that, well, when we saw Alastair, the most recent one, didn't have the cadence of the previous ones, and Ruby different from Ruby 2.0. So like, having Meg 2.0 be very much a "This is Meg in a different body, but it's Meg for sure" be like, something a bit more impressive and a bit more fun.

C: Yeah, no, Rachel Miner did a really good job. And also, she's so hot! [both laugh] Yeah.

G: And also, like, I do find it fun that Dean didn't recognize her immediately, but Sam did. That's so fun!

C: Yes. Yes, I loved that. It made me very emotional. [G: Yeah.] God, I do think it's hilarious that they bring her back like, the episode after Ruby dies, though. [G, laughing: Yeah.] It's like, yeah, like, we lost our one like, brunette demon who Dean can call a bitch. We need to bring in someone else. "Like, Meg?" "But Meg was blonde." "No, no, don't worry. We've recast." [laughs]

G: I mean, Ruby 1 was also blonde.

C: Yeah, both of them had the blonde to brunette sort of [G: Pipeline.] character arc.

G: [laughs] Yeah. And Meg just comes in, starts trash-talking Dean, gets Ruby's knife. Yeah, she's like, "Wow, I mean, you're gonna ice the devil? Well, I would have ripped your pretty, pretty face off ages ago if I knew." And Dean's like, "Ruby," like, [C laughs] a very menacing way, and Meg was like, "Nuh-uh. Try again. Go back further," which is so fun. [C: Yeah!] And Dean's like, "Meg??" and like, he actually was like, "Huh?" And it is Meg.

C: Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I mean, what has Meg been up to? Like, the last time we saw her was in "Born Under a Bad Sign," and, like, all she wanted was revenge for, like, the death of her brother and Azazel. Like, she wasn't really focused on the bigger plan at all, like, kind of shockingly so, in a season that was pretty focused on the psychic kids. But like, I don't know. It's been like, two years. [G: A long time.] What has she been doing? Clearly, she's a lot more on board with the Lucifer thing now. Like, did she join a Bible study? [laughs] Like-

G: Maybe. Finding way back to Lucifer, yeah. [C: Yeah.] She says, "Oh, our father's among us, and it's like, Heaven on Earth, or well, Hell." And I do like that with following what, you know, Ruby and religion and Alastair being like- is that Alastair? No, it was Azazel being like, "Oh, like, Lucifer is an angel, and it does matter because the vibes are the same" or whatever and how like, he treats Lucifer as a god, as a religion. And, you know, here is Meg, touting the same talking points. And also later, when Lucifer goes, "I'm an angel," I love that so much.

C: I thought it was pretty bad rhetoric when Lucifer did that. I was like, "How is this gonna work?" But I do think I really like Meg's full line here. I think I have it down as best line. Like, I don't know. It's fun. It's fun. The Lucifer religion shit is fun.

G: Yeah. She says, "We're all dreaming again for the first time since we were human."

C: Yes, I really liked that line. [G: Love it. And yeah.] 'Cause it does remind you that, like, Hell fucking sucks and a lot of what the demons want from the Apocalypse is like- Hell fucking sucks, and they want to come on to Earth so that they don't have to be in Hell anymore, basically [G: Yeah.] and like, be able to have a space to themselves that they can like-

G: Who is keeping them down there?

C: Yeah, it's just like, hard to get up, I think, physically.

G: No, but like, they're also being tortured, and who dictates that? And why is this infrastructure built in the first place?

C: Maybe the Princes of Hell? I don't know. [laughs] It's stupid.

G: Like, what the fuck is this bureaucracy situation that you entrapped yourself in? I don't know.

C: Yeah. The Princes of Hell are probably involved in keeping that running except Azazel ditched his post to feed blood to babies. Lucifer's like, in a cage, right? So like, he's not even making any policy decisions! [both laugh] [G: Yeah!] So I have no clue. 'Cause Alastair says, "Oh, like, I love it in Hell, but they keep sending me up here." Like, [laughs] who's "they"? [G: Yeah. Who the fuck-] Like, what is this? I guess Lilith was the leader for a while, right? [G: Yeah.] So like, she was ruling it. It's weird that there's not more of an upset in Hell now that there's like, this power vacuum that Lilith behind.

G: Well, but there is Lucifer.

C: Yeah, I guess there's Lucifer. He hasn't talked to any of them. But I guess the angels are fine without God.

G: Was it Meg who said it? Was it Meg who says like, you know, like, "Lucifer's not yet in the body," or whatever, so- [laughing] Oh, no, it was Cas! Cas said, "The moment Lucifer is in his body, is in his vessel, like, the end begins," pretty much.

C: They say that every episode. "As soon as blah blah blah happens, the end begins." [both laugh] I feel like the end began like, 500 times in Supernatural already.

G: No, yeah. I thought "When she dies, the end begins!" But yeah, it's still beginning. I don't know.

C: Yeah, yeah. I guess it's not "The End" until 5.04.

G: Maybe Lilith is not the final seal. Have we considered? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, maybe Nick is. Maybe Sam is. Maybe anything anywhere is

G: Exactly. Maybe it's that fucking rusty-ass nail.

C: Yeah, yeah. Maybe it is. We got a really neat ask that was like, "Lilith is actually like, the Jesus figure of the Lucifer religion because [both] she's the one who had to die," and like, was raised by Lucier, like, her soul was twisted by him and all that shit. So like, I guess it's like, Lilith died, and that is a power vacuum, but, like, she probably remains on as like, a religious figure in the way that Jesus was. And like, the memory of her is sort of keeping people together under the same goals, so that's why there isn't so much of an upset in Hell right now? Fun stuff. [G: Fun stuff.] Did Meg and Ruby know each other? I just- again-

G: I mean, she must know of Ruby due to she told Dean, "No, further back." So she must know. [C: Yeah, right.] Maybe there was angel radio, or demon radio.

C: Yeah, maybe so. I feel like at the end of Season 3, it was sort of assumed that Lilith could communicate to all of her lieutenants without having to talk physically with them. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I think there's some kind of an equivalent.

G: It is fascinating that it's called "radio." I mean, I know Dean just invented that shit, but like [C: Yeah.], so if you miss it, it's over? Or is it just constantly on, and you can't turn it off?

C: I feel like it's on, and you can't turn it off. Like, I feel like Anna wanted to turn it off and she couldn't.

G: Okay, yeah, you're right.

C: You decide what goes in, but still.

G: What would be the modern equivalent of demon radio? I know there's still fucking radios, [laughs] but is there?

C: Like, a giant Discord server?

G: For real. And it pings @everyone, yeah.

C: Yeah. Yeah, and you can't block people.

G: Yeah, every message starts with "@everyone." [C laughs]

C: Yeah. God, I hate @everyone so much. Usually, I am not relevant to the message. And like, they send me a big, scary red number about it. Horrid.

G: Meg is telling Dean, like, "Oh, so many demons, like, everyone's dying for a piece of you." And Dean says, "Get in line." And Meg says, "Oh, I'm in the front of the line, baby, let's ride." And then - this is what we were mentioning earlier - Meg kisses Dean, and it is a bad look. Because-

C: Yeah, I mean, first, it's sexual assault no matter what. [G: Yeah.] Second, they do have Dean like, scrunch his face up [G: Yeah.] and like, he is hating it.

G: And also, we forgot to mention, Bobby is like, holding him still this entire time. [C: Yeah, that too.] So there's also that aspect of it. So yeah.

C: Yeah. And it just feels so tonally weird. Like, they've done sexual assault via demon quite a few times in the show. I think, you know, Meg does it to Sam in "Shadow," 1.16. Lilith does it to Sam in 3.16. And I feel like basically, each time, it just feels like it comes out of absolutely nowhere. [G: Yeah.] Aren't those all Eric Kripkes also? [G: Yeah, I think so.] Right. And it's like, I don't know. It does feel like a misogynistic writing thing, like, "Well, we don't know how else to show that like, a woman is bad. So let's do this." [G: Yeah.] It's just very wedged in, it's very unfortunate to look at, I wish it was not happening. It just doesn't seem to like, do anything for the story in any way, I think. [G: Yeah.] I think you could say that maybe it feeds into, like, later, when Zachariah is trying to force Dean to consent to being possessed by Michael, it could be sort of doing like a, "Look at the way that both sides don't care about consent and like, force things upon your body, just like, in different ways." [G: Yeah.] I don't know if that's really it. Like, I feel like that connection isn't particularly obvious or necessarily intended.

G: I do think the whole angel thing, the fact that Dean calls it "angel condom" [C: Mm-hm.] and then "consent" is like, the big word in that entire scene. I think there is something to that. [C: Yeah.] This one, my main complaint about it is that it's just lazy. [C laughs] Like, as you've said, they've done it so many times already, and it's like, they don't know how else to communicate this other than in this way.

C: She can just punch him. [laughs]

G: And then I mean also, it's just because the demon is a woman, you know? So yeah, it's all that.

C: Not that I would want them to do this with a man either [laughs] because I think it would be homophobic. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, no, the thing is that they characterize their female characters a very specific way in Supernatural, and they find it very difficult to veer off this path.

C: Yeah, it's either sexy (good) or sexy (evil).

G: Yeah. You know, every time we do like, something like this, and we go, "Of course there's complexity!" I get thrown back to that one time we were like, "Of course there's complexity, but like, do the writers know that?" [both laugh] Well, do they?

C: Do they? Dislike, it, and I feel like for Meg, like, it is like, an established thing with her character in that she does it to Jo, Sam, and now, Dean, and I think it is just like, accumulated laziness on the part of the writers.

G: I don't know. 'Cause like, the Meg thing was Season 1, right? That was a Season 1 thing.

C: Yeah, 1.16 and then... 2.18? 2.20?

G: Yeah, I don't know. I think maybe if they didn't have Lilith- like, in 4.18, if they didn't have Lilith do that, I would be less- I would be claiming less "Supernatural's running out of ideas about this." Because it's like, "Okay, it's a character thing. It's just- it's a character thing." [laughs] But also, they do it for everyone. I don't know.

C: Yeah, they do it for all female characters who are evil. And also, I don't think they should have made it a character thing because I feel like they just don't do it very well.

G: It is just also like a- Meg becomes a character we're supposed to at least like, or at least-

C: Yeah, and it's like, "Well, what about that, though?"

G: And also at least, like, feel some empathy towards towards the end. [C: By the end of Season 8, yeah.] And to be fair, like, they do work on that. Like, she becomes less demon-demon-demon-y by that time. [C: Yeah.] And also, it just reminds me of how, when I said that like, Supernatural cares about vessels- Like, Supernatural doesn't care about vessels unless it's a recurring character, just like how they they did the whole thing with Jimmy, and then removed Jimmy from there, and then they did the whole thing where Ruby doesn't actually have a vessel- I mean, doesn't have anyone in that vessel. So like, they care when it's supposed to be a character who sticks around, and, like Meg has been here long enough to be considered a character that sticks around, and so it does make me wonder like, what is the perspective of this? Like, why is this being kept around? Is she supposed to remain evil? I suppose she is, but I mean, at some point, that will change. And I don't recall much of her future stuff, but let's see. [C: We'll see.] Yeah. This is when Dean says, "Oh, what's that? Peanut butter?" And Meg says, "Well, Bobby's still alive-" Well, she says, "Your surrogate daddy's still awake, screaming in there, and I want him to know how it feels, slicing the life out of ya." [C: Yeah! Let's go.] And she gives the demon knife to Bobby. Wrong move! Just give him a normal knife! Dean's just a normal guy. [C: Yeah.] Bobby, like, I don't know, is about to kill Dean, about to stab him, and then Dean goes, "Bobbay!" [both laugh] He literally goes, "Bobbay!" Bobby, like, is able to take control of the vessel and then stabs himself. Shucks himself like an oyster, even.

C: Yeah. Is it his stomach or his leg?

G: I think it's in the stomach. How did that reach his spinal cord, which is what I assume got damaged?

C: Yeah. Okay, first of all, so you can kill the demon possessing someone without killing the person if you stab the right way? [laughs] Like, why didn't you try to stab the right way in the past? Like, shooting Azazel in the foot with the Colt didn't kill him [G: Didn't kill John, yeah.]. Stabbing Alastair on the shoulder didn't kill Alastair. But you could kill the demon without- like, Bobby could kill the demon without killing himself?

G: Also, how did Bobby get possessed? Didn't he have that fucking tattoo?

C: Does he not have the tattoo? We've never seen him have the tattoo. Maybe he was just like, "That's for young people." [G laughs] [G: You think-] Or, I don't know. Maybe he's Jewish. There are many reasons.

G: Yeah, maybe Bobby draws the line at the tattoo. [C: Yeah.] It is a bit of a "Oh, Bobby? get Bobby's gonna get possessed? Bit odd." But okay, fine. It was a stressful time. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] "It was a really stressful day!" as Chuck said.

C: Maybe Bobby only uses like, temporary tattoos, and he ran out.

G: Stabs himself, and then it becomes a fight scene where, I don't know, Dean's getting beat. Sam enters and sees Bobby and then gets beat, and then Meg's there-

C: Specifically, Sam, he enters, he sees, like, Bobby and Dean on the floor, and he goes, "No!!" [both laugh] Like, it's so funny to me. Like, "Oh, no!"

G: "Oh naur!" is what he said.

C: Yeah. Though, I mean, it does feel a little bit to me like a "Oh, no, like, you guys can't die before I make this right between us!" [both laugh] which I think is understandable feeling to have, but also be worried about them just for them, please.

G: And yeah, Meg goes, "Hi, Sam. You miss me? 'Cause I sure missed you." And he recognizes her [both] immediately, and it's really fun.

C: He goes, "Meg." And yeah, 'cause it's like, first off, like, he knows Meg intimately because, like, he was the one who met her first in Season 1. Like, they were like, friends, and she was stringing him along and all that. And then she possessed his body for like, several weeks in Season 2, right? Like, Sam was missing for like, a at least a week before Dean found him again. [G: And also was still possessed, yeah.] Yeah, yeah. So like, he knows Meg intimately. And also he knows it's not Ruby, because he knows Ruby intimately in a way that Dean doesn't, so he would not mistake either of them for the other. Like, he knows them because of somewhat similar things they've done to him, but not really that similar. And yeah, I don't know. I care. I care about those relationships.

G: Yeah. It reminds me of- sorry. But it reminds me of in "The Future," when- whatever. It doesn't remind me of it at all. [both laughing] [C: What? Okay.] No, you know that episode where Dean goes back in time to a ship, and [laughing]-

C: Oh, yeah, there's a really bad actor? Like, what is it? Like, "That's him. He's the guy who-" what was it?

G: [laughing] "who tied me up" or something. [laughing] What a funny as fuck episode. But like, in that episode, Cas was possessed by Lucifer, and Sam is there, and he couldn't recognize that it's Lucifer. And, I don't know. I was thinking of that, and I was thinking of this of like, I don't know. He was able to recognize Meg, and if this was Ruby, he would recognize Ruby, like, immediately, too. But he didn't recognize Lucifer.

C: Yeah, and he knew Lucifer for 100 years. 200 years?

G: Yeah. I think a part of it is that it was Cas, and so naturally, his guard was down, because, like, that's Cas! And yeah, Cas is acting a bit weird, but Cas is always a bit weird. It's fine. [C laughs] Like, if that was just a random person and then Lucifer is also there, it's like, "Oh. Yeah." I mean, also, earlier that season, there's a scene where Sam is having a dream of quote "Dad," and he realizes instantly that it's not. "Whatever you are is not," and it turned out to be Lucifer, and he goes, "I could never trick you, Sam." But he was able to when it was Cas that he possessed just because, like, Sam would never suspect Cas, probably.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Sam feels just automatically safe around him at this point. [G sighs] Doesn't he let Cas like, soulfist him [G: Yeah!] as Lucifer? Yeah.

G: And also, Cas just soulfists him in general.

C: Yeah, yeah, regular Cas soulfists him as well.

G: [laughs] Regular Cas and regular soulfisting.

C: Yeah, yeah. And it's regular 'cause they're doing that shit daily. [G laughs]

G: That's what makes them good in bed! [C laughs]

C: God. Best video of all.

G: Best video of all time. Okay, well, yeah. I mean, eventually, Dean gets to fucking kill the other demon, and Meg yeets out of that thing. And then I also had the same thought I had with Lilith. Like, what the fuck do they do with this vessel?

C: Yeah, it seems like they just leave her like, lying on the floor and then like, run off, and she gets repossessed.

G: I mean, it's probably easier for them to have the same person be repossessed again and again [C: Yeah.] because they recognize the demon already. But that is a very morbid way to think about it

C: Well, I don't think that's the reasoning. [both laugh] I hope it isn't.

G: [laughing] I think that's the reasoning! "Well, whatever. At least we will know next time."

C: Yeah. It's just weird. It's an odd thing. Like, you think you would wait for the other person to wake up, and then you'd be like, "Hey, do you remember that shit that happened? Okay, here's a tattoo to prevent it from happening again."

C: We go back to Pike Creek, Delaware, where Nick lives, and he's like, putting away baby stuff in a box in the nursery that his dead child used to live in. The baby rocker starts moving. He stops it, and then he hears like, a baby crying out, and he digs through the box, and at the bottom of it is a baby monitor, and it's lighting up, and the crying is happening. So he heads over to where the crib is but the crying ends. But like, it's like, every time he looks at it, there's no crying; when he turns away, the crying starts again. And then blood starts pouring out of the crib just in big ol' sheets. And he is very distressed, and he starts crying and crying. But yeah. None of this is actually happening; Lucifer is just making him see visions.

G: Did this work for you?

C: Did this scene work for me? [G: Yeah.] I am curious about- I feel like Lucifer's approach to getting Nick to say yes feels too... human? Like, is that also how you felt about it? Like, it's so personalized and so based off of like, "Here, is like, how Nick is feeling. Here's how he's vulnerable. Here are his pain points." And, like, Lucifer's been in the cage alone for 200 years- or, not 200 years. He's been in the cage alone for millennia. It's hard for me to imagine that he would have this as his go-to strat.

G: I mean, I've not thought about it that way. Lucifer is very much like, throughout the show, he would know how to poke in that way, much like Zachariah, I feel like. Like, they would have the same vibe. I mean, when he approaches Sam, he goes as Jessica. [C: Mm-hm.] S that is like, the perspective here, I suppose, of like, having your dead whatever. And also, as I've said earlier, there is the perspective of it's personalized in this way, not because he's empathizing with Nick, but because he did that to Nick, so he can personalize it. [C: Sure, sure.] Like, he personalized it from the beginning.

C: Okay, yeah, that makes more sense to me.

G: But also, how does that work? He's not been up a long time.

C: That's true. [both laugh] How did he do that?

G: [laughing] Maybe he didn't. I'm not sure, as I've said. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, he could've told Azazel to to like, do something.

G: Yeah, okay, yeah. But Azazel's dead.

C: Like, [laughs] he could've told Azazel to tell someone else to do it? [G: I mean, maybe.] Like, we're talking about the killing of the family, right?

G: The wife, yeah yeah yeah. And the kid. Should we Google right now what the fuck that is about? Or just, let's let it hang.

C: Like, the reason to Google it is because it's taking up so much of our discussion when there's like, an obvious correct answer that we could find if we looked at it?

G: Yeah, but that is true for everything we talk about, honestly.

C: I kind of do want to know, though.

G: Okay, let's look it up.

C: I guess I don't only know things from social media.

G: "After tracking the killer to Mary Winchester, Nick defeats Donna Hanscum and kidnaps Mary." [laughing] What is this?

C: What? Mary did it? [G laughing] I guess Mary did it. No need to read further. This is what I believe now.

G: "One night, the demon Abraxas-" [said as abracious] [laughs] Is that how it's pronounced? It's either pronounced abracious, abraxas, abrayxas- I don't know.

C: It could be whatever. So what? A demon did it? [G: Yeah.] And what is his relationship to Lucifer?

G: Let's see, let's look at the Abracious. "Was an extremely sadistic demon, loyal to Lucifer, who brutally murdered Nick's family on Lucifer's orders." So yeah, I was right. He did not kill his family, but [laughs] Lucifer did. [C: Great. Okay. Cool.] You know what it is, though? When he showed up, the ghost of his wife is there, and the wife is like, "Be free, my love." or whatever. [both laugh] And he was like, "No, I want to get back together with Lucifer." So that's what happens.

C: Huh, okay. Whatever, I guess. Okay, you asked whether or not this worked for me. Why do you ask? Did it strongly not work for you?

G: No, I'm just curious, because, as I've said, like, the Nick and Lucifer, this Lucifer, like, I just find it very hard to give a shit. So like, do you? What's the situation?

C: I think I gave somewhat of a shit until I found out that it was like, a murderer and not like, something else.

G: Why is that?

C: I mean, just like, they're trying too hard to do. John Winchester parallels if it's a murderer. [G: Mm, okay.] Also also, I think the whole like- the desire for revenge being directed at like, "a specific person, oh, and also God" doesn't work as well as like, "It was fully because of misfortune, which is fully God's fault because God controls fate." Like, you know? [G: Mm. Yeah, okay.] Yeah, 'cause it is like, "Oh, you should be so mad that someone murdered your wife and kid that you should hate God." It's like, [laughs] don't you have like, a primary person to hate first?

G: [laughing] Don't you have anything else to do?

C: Yeah. Take a leaf out of John Winchester's book, man. He didn't go straight to God. He had some intermediaries first. Yeah, so like, if it was like, death by childbirth, just death in childbirth, death through like, I don't know, [G: Cancer.] fucking like, anything else. Like, gas leak, whatever. Then it's like, "Okay, that's God's fault."

G: Well, I feel like you can still blame someone for a gas leak.

C: Yeah, sure. [both laugh] You can kill the utility company CEO or the like, person who worked on the house. Yeah. But I feel like that's less direct than "someone came in and shot your wife and kid." So yeah, just didn't work for me after that. Currently, I think it was working for me.

G: You know what? His family could have died during one of the calamities brought about by Lucifer's rise. [C: That's true. Yeah.] I think that would be like, a fun concept, maybe.

C: Yeah. Wasn't one of the seals, that like, a teacher in New York like, killed everyone in the classroom? So like, the kid could have gone via that, I suppose.

G: Yeah. But it won't be a crib then, because, I don't know, I don't think two-month-old babies go to school

C: [laughs] That's true. [G laughs] Good point. Okay.

G: Yeah, it is a nice visual, though. The visuals for the Nick scenes are pretty neat.

C: Yeah, it's a fun visual. It's like, a fun- like, I feel like it does feel actually scary. You are like, "Man, Lucifer's really toying with this guy just like, for fun and to manipulate him better, and it is creepy. What's happening?"

G: Yeah.

G: Anyways, Sam and Dean, emergency room. They're rushing Bobby in. No cap! [C: Yeah.] [laughs] Which, of course, is the priority in this situation.

C: Of course. Sam looks like the most lesbian person ever.

G: I know. He is so cute, but yeah, he-

C: I think it's something about his hair in this episode, but especially in the scene. It's just like, at a really nice length and shape.

G: Yeah. Bit more mushroomy than usual, I would say. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] And yeah. I mean, you know, they're in there going, "Bobby, hang in there." And they're not allowed to go inside. And Sam just decides that he's gonna stand there and wait. And Dean just is like, "Well, no, we have to go to what was said, because maybe the demons already know, and we need to go there." So they do.

C: Yeah, this is some interesting inversion from Season 4, where, like, Dean was mostly the feelings guy and Sam was like, the plot guy. But I guess it does make sense that- 'cause Sam's currently in his "I need to be forgiven or punished" mode, so he's gonna be very focused on the relationships in his life, and Dean's in the "I need to repress everything and focus on the Apocalypse" mode. So now they're where they're at.

G: Yeah. Well, as they go in, they have this really fun scene where they're loading up their weapons. I don't know why I like it so much. I think it's because we just haven't seen it happen in a while. [C: Yeah.] They're gearing up, and then they go in. And there is a bunch of dead bodies on the floor of demons. And also, Zachariah is over there. And he says, "I see you told the demons where the sword is." And Dean just goes, "Oh, thank god, the angels are here." [laughs] He is also pretty funny this episode. Maybe this episode is funny. Zachariah is doing the ominous like, "Ah, they could have grabbed it the whole time. You hand-delivered it." He's so annoying. But apparently, they just planted that prophecy in Chuck's head to get Dean to come here because "The Michael's sword is you, chucklehead." Dun-dun-dun!

C: Zachariah goes, "You thought you could actually kill Lucifer, you simpering wad of insecurity and self-loathing?" [G: Love it.] For realsies. And he calls Dean "a human, and not much of one," which is fun, I think. I don't think it means anything particularly deep, but it does seem like a deliberate choice to say "human" instead of "man" here. And Dean doesn't understand what the fuck is going on, but Zachariah explains that he's the vessel. Michael's vessel. Dean's not excited about this. He calls himself an angel condom and says, "No, not happening." And Zachariah's like, "Eh, no. You gotta." And then he like, raises his [G: Finger.]- He does like, a handgun, yeah, with his fingers, and then he shows it off at Sam, and he goes, "Bang!" And then Sam falls to the ground. [G: It is fun.] Both his legs got broken! It was so good. He says, like, "Oh, like, Dean, if you keep mouthing off, then I'll hurt Sam more. We just- we really need you to be a vessel and all that shit. Like, please?" [G: "Pwease?"] And Dean asks how many humans will die. "Like, 10 million?" And Zachariah says, "Probably more. But if Lucifer goes unchecked, you know how many die? All of them." And sometimes, I am annoyed at Supernatural's "there has to be a third way" approach to plot, but I think I think this is one of the episodes where I do like Supernatural's "there has to be a third way" plot. Like, I do like at some point that, like, there's a line to be drawn, and if the lesser evil is still beyond that line, then, like, we're not gonna do it. [G: Yeah.] Dean is like, "Oh, like, the reason you're trying to get me to do this instead of just kidnapping me is that you need my consent. Well, there's gotta be another way." And Zachariah says that like, "Uh-huh. This has to happen. It is written." Written where? [laughs] Like, who decided this? God?

G: I don't know, honestly. I mean the whole- Even though we actually do meet God like, for realsies, everything is still so so nebulous in that department.

C: Well. And Dean goes, "Eat me. The answer is no." So Zachariah's next offer is that if Dean says yes, they'll heal Bobby's legs, otherwise he'll never walk again. And Dean just says no to every offer. So the next one is that Zachariah gives him stage 4 stomach cancer, and he'll only heal him if Dean says yes. And then Zachariah takes Sam's lungs away! [G laughs] [G: Love it] Slaycation! And as everyone has done and timed, it's about 90 seconds that Sam doesn't have lungs. So good for him for being able to hold his breath for that long.

G: I mean, is it that long? Like, Cas comes in and then tells Zachariah, "Leave these two alone." That's 90 seconds to fill?

C: Yeah, 'cause there's like, a fight first. [G: Oh, yeah yeah yeah.] Cas and Zachariah have an exchange that takes too long for Sam dying on the floor.

G: No, I mean a part of it is probably like, fixing them up, including removing the brain damage that Sam has acquired from not having oxygen.

C: Yeah, that's true. Also, 90 seconds isn't like, that bad in that some people can just do it if they're like, good swimmers. [G: Oh, of course, yeah.] But yeah, I don't know if Sam's a good swimmer. Well, he did dive in with his jeans in 1.03.

G: Yeah. For his own compliment, yeah.

C: Yeah, for his own compliment. And he did it solo in "Playthings," right?

G: The pool one, right?

C: Yeah. The hotel one. So he can swim an amount. [G laughs] [G: He could.] And so, I don't know. Sam and Dean are both on the ground dying. And Zachariah goes like, "Are we having fun yet? You're going to say yes, Dean." And Dean says, "Just kill us." But Zachariah is not going to do that. But then! But then there's a bright light. [G: Dun-dun-dun!] And I love the way they shoot this! We see one of the angels, like, the nondescript angels in the black suits, and then we see a blade go through his throat from behind. [G: Yeah! And then we pan-] And then we see him fall. Like, as he falls, we pan over, and then it's Cas. It's Cas. It's Cas, it's Cas! Oh my god! It's Cas! Did you know that it was Cas? It's Cas. Anyway. [G: It's wonderful.] It's- Yeah. It's so good to see him! He's so cool! Has anyone ever been so cool? [G: Probably.] Probably Ruby in Season 3.

G: But this is another cool. [C: Yeah.] You know this scene, it is fun to see Cas back, but also, I am so vehemently aware of all the camera tricks they're doing to [C laughs] not show Misha Collins throw a punch. [laughs]

C: No no no, exactly! Like, it's so shaky, the resulting fight scene. [G laughs] Yeah, I made the same note. [G: Because we saw a fight scene earlier!] I was like, "It's just to make it look like he's doing a good job in a fight scene."

G: It's 'cause we saw a fight scene earlier with Dean and Sam, and, you know, Meg and company, so like, we know what a fight scene looks like [C laughs] in Supernatural. 'Cause at least the Uriel and Cas scene, we didn't see a fight scene prior to this.

C: Yeah, it was mostly just Uriel beating Cas up.

G: Yeah. Then this one, it's like, we saw a fight scene for real prior to this, and then this one is just, "Oh! We were never gonna see like, a proper shot of anything? That's great." [both laugh] It's wonderful. It's wonderies.

C: So yeah, Cas fights the other angel. At least we think he does. You can't tell because of how shaky the camera is. [both laugh] [G: Yeah, it's implied.] Yeah. The other angel gets stabbed and dies, and then Cas corners Zachariah, who is in shock. He asks, "How are you-" And Cas goes, "Alive? That's a good question. How did these two end up on that airplane? Another good question. 'Cause the angels didn't do it. I think we both know the answer, don't we?" He's so-

G: He's so cunty.

C: He's so cunty for real. And like, I feel like if I was personally resurrected by God as like, a "you alone were correct about everything last season," I, too, would be quite cunty. [G: For real.] Like, he knows for sure now that he is God's specialest little princess.

G: Yeah! And I mean, I don't know. Like, Cas's journey this season is gonna take him places. But I think all of the places are wonderful, and I'm glad we start here, with him just being so sure that he is the chosen one.

C: Mm-hm. [laughs] Yeah. So Zachariah goes, "That's not possible." And Cas goes, "It scares you. Well, it should." Good for him! [G: Lovely!] And he says, "Now, put these boys back together and go." [laughs] God bless. I love when he calls Sam and Dean "boys." Like, he is gay.

G: Yeah. [laughs] No, but it does remind me of when you said that like, they make a point of calling Dean "human" and not- whatever. [laughs] "Man." And now it's like, Cas is calling them boys. Well, that's fun.

C: Yeah. It is fun. 'Cause I know he keeps calling them boys in Season 6 because I know he says that in "Man Who Would be King," so.

G: What does he say that says "boys" in "Man Who Would be King"?

C: I think- Is there, like, a voiceover at the beginning where he's like, "Here all the things that happened." And he was like- I feel he's like-

G: [laughing] "Two boys and an old drunk"?

C: Yeah. I think it was that, yeah. It was "two boys and an old drunk." [G laughs]

G: Casbobby is so real!

C: Sam and Dean are too young for him, but Bobby's too old for him. What does Cas think his age is, like, human age-wise. Like, 40? Does Cas feel 40?

G: I don't know, but it is very rude to call Bobby a drunk, I feel like.

C: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Zachariah heals Sam and Dean, presumably. [laughs] He doesn't have to touch them to heal them. Cas is just a freak. [G laughs]

G: He's a freak and a weirdo!

C: Yeah. A crepe, too. I mean, there are times when Cas heals Sam and Dean without touching them, right? So like, he chooses that shit whatever he chooses to touch them to do it.

G: When did he not touch them and heal them?

C: Like, when he and Dean are in a fight in 15.09, doesn't he hover his hand over Dean's hand and then heal it? [G: Oh, yeah. Mm, yeah.] But he doesn't like, touch it?

G: Yeah. Touch him. Yeah. So why would he even need to hover over it?

C: Mm. Like, I guess gay reasons.

G: Yeah. Gay sex reasons, even.

C: Yeah. Gay sex reasons. That's what a handjob is, right? Like, no one ever told me what that was. Is that what a handjob is?

G: The gay sex?

C: No, I was making a joke about the hand healing being a handjob. [G laughs] It didn't land.

G: [laughing] It's so corny. It's too corny.

C: We gotta- Yeah, yeah. We're cutting it out. No need one needs to know.

G: No, we'll never. [laughs]

C: [frustrated sound] Okay. Well, anyway. So after Zachariah leaves and Sam and Dean are both fine, stand up, Cas says, "You two need to be more careful." And Dean's like, "Yeah, got it. Also, the other angels are dicks." And Cas is like, "No, I don't mean them. Lucifer is circling his vessel, and once he takes it, those hex bags won't be enough to protect you." And then, yeah, he puts one hand on each of their chests, and he says that he carved in an Enochian sigil directly into their ribs!

G: No, he says first, "An Enochian sigil." And then Dean goes, "Did you just brand this with it?" And then he goes, "No, I carved it into your ribs." Like, fully being like, "No, that's normal." [laughs]

C: "Obviously, I wouldn't brand you. Like, no, it's just in your ribs. Duh." And it'll hide them from every angel, including Lucifer.

G: Yeah. I mean, I did think, because this was just preceded by conversation about angel and consent and blah blah blah and also the Meg scene happened earlier [C: Right.], I was a little bit like, conscious of that in this one. 'Cause the reaction shot of Dean and Sam, like, looking at Cas like "Huh?" And like, I mean, I suppose it can feel violating to be branded in your ribs by Enochian sigils.

C: Yeah, you can't do anything about that. That's way deep inside. [G: Yeah.] So after that, Sam goes, "Hey, Cas, were you really dead?" Agh. Sastiel's real also, I think. [G laughs] [G: Exactly.] Yeah. I don't know. The Sam and Cas relationship should be more complex than it is right now, though. Like, Cas did let him out of that room, and, like, Cas and the angels were part of the people who are like, going around telling Dean like, "Stop Sam," blah blah blah. [G: Yeah.] Actually, why did that happen? Why did Cas tell Dean to stop Sam in 4.03 if the angels wanted the Apocalypse to happen?

G: I don't- I mean at that point, as we've said, Cas still doesn't know.

C: Well, Cas didn't know, but I assume he brought Dean back in time because of orders. So like, why was that order given?

G: I don't know. Backstory. So they can have a lovey-dovey turning around shoulder on something moment. [C laughs]

C: It was part of the honeypot Cas plot, I see. [G: For real!] But yeah, whatever. It's cute, it's cute. And I think it's also like, a nice thing, because it's like, you know, like, Sam's had a difficult relationship with God, and he knows now, like, if what Cas says is true, like, Cas was brought back by God. And Dean and Sam were saved by God when Lucifer rose. So like, I think it does mean something to have proof that, like, God is somewhat on his side, despite what he did. [G: Yeah.] So Cas goes, "Yes." And Dean goes, "Then how are you back?" And then Cas just vanishes! I love you, Cas!

G: So that's all of our Cas for this week. [C: Yeah.] That's all the Cas.

C: I do think it's interesting that he comes back because I feel like if I was a first-time viewer-

G: It would be surprising to have this character come back, yeah.

C: Yeah, sorry, I meant come back in 5.02.

G: Oh. What do you mean?

C: Like, it seems like Cas's work here is done. [both laugh]

G: "My work here is done." Who says that in Supernatural?

C: I don't know. Someone.

G: Do you think so?

C: I mean, not entirely. Like, obviously, it seems like there's like, a setup for him to be a bigger part of this. But also, like, I don't know. Cas, personally, what are his reasons to come back? He already hid them from every angel and demon in existence, including Lucifer. Like, okay.

G: Well, because he wants to find God.

C: Well, but we don't know that yet in this episode.

G: Yeah, but we will know when he comes back. So you're saying there's no like, real motivation to bring him back, right now as it stands.

C: Yeah, like, from what we know about him so far, like, he is sort of like- I don't know. I feel like he could be done.

G: Could he? I mean, the thing about Cas is, as I've said, he literally could've just gone. Like, he could have just not- he could have just died for real in Season 5, he could've- I don't know, like, rised Sam back from the whatever, from Hell, in Season 6, and then just left. He could have just stayed Emmanuel forever and just died completely, like, not even come back in Season 7. [laughing] Could've just killed Dean in Season 8. Like, he could have just stayed human and stayed away forever in Season 9 and then bring him back in Season 15 and be like, "Oh, remember Castiel?" [both laugh]

C: He was gay for you the whole time. Yeah.

G: Yeah, no, like, there's just so many avenues to take Cas's character out of this story. And they did do it, it just didn't work. [C: Yeah.] But also like, I don't think anyone would really complain if Cas just died in Season 4. [C: Yeah.] Or would they?

C: I think people would be fine with it. [G: Yeah.] He'd probably just go down as sort of like, a Henriksen-type character.

G: Yeah, or a Pamela or something? [C: Mm.] Or Jo and Ellen, who are still beloved characters. And I mean, I don't know. Like, Dean did mourn him before we knew that he was still alive. So like, there is like, you know, it's not like, it's just "Oh, he died. Whatevs." Like, there is the aspect-

C: He mourned Pamela.

G: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, he could have just gone, because, like, the show, like, Dean accepted that he was gone, and also like, was mourning him already. So it's not like, there is the aspect of "We need more like, attachment to the character so that when he actually does die, it does matter." You know what I mean? Like, it already did matter. Why was Cas brought back over and over again? 'Cause like, before Season 7-

C: Because we all like him so much.

G: In Season 7, it was because that season was pretty bad and was pretty not well-received, so they needed to bring back something that people like. But I feel like if it was- if Cas died in a season where it was like, less bad, people wouldn't demand the same of him. [C: Maybe, yeah.] And also, there is the aspect- I mean, Bobby died the middle of Season 7, but it's fine because it's Bobby. [laughs] And also, they put a lot of focus on it, and it's like, a big deal, and it's the middle of the season. So like, it feels like the season where Bobby died instead of Season 7, where it's like, "and the season starts with Cas walking into the river." [C: Yes.] So I don't know. We are so lucky that they brought Cas back over and over again. Or are we? I mean, if they didn't, we wouldn't be here. I'm sure of that.

C: Yeah. Probably. Definitely. Why does Cas just leave?

G: I don't know. He's trying to be mysterious. [both laugh]

C: I feel like- I don't know. Like, he should be having- Is he like, what are his feelings about Sam and Dean right now? Like, he failed to stop the Apocalypse.

G: Well, he will say it to them next week.

C: Okay, right. Next week, he's angry. Is he leaving 'cause he's angry at them?

G: I don't think so. I think this is just "I'm going to figure stuff out by myself," and by next week he has figured it out, and he's asking Sam and Dean for the thing.

C: Okay, I guess we can wait to see how he feels. [G: Wait and see, yeah.] But I wanna know now! Oh, well, next week.

G: You can watch the episode!

C: Yeah. I've never watched like, a BAB episode in advance. I don't think it's gonna happen.

G: [laughing] You can just say Supernatural. [both laugh]

C: You're right. Okay.

G: You've never seen a Busty Asian Beauties episode in advance.

C: Yeah, I always happen to be like, there at the time that it's being made, for some reason.

G: We go to Nick's house, and he is sleeping, gets woken up by his wife or a vision of his wife. Well, a vision of his wife. It's Sarah, and she immediately goes, "Nick, you're dreaming. But it doesn't mean that this isn't real."

C: Hey, did you mention- did you notice what she's wearing?

G: She's wearing a white nightgown? [C laughing] Hell yeah! Supernatural- there's one thing you can rely on Supernatural on, and it's that they will put a woman in a nightgown.

C: They should have put her in a Pikachu onesie. [both laugh]

G: Sure, why not? She says, "I'm not your wife. I'm an angel. My name is Lucifer." Nick is, you know, disbelieving. It's like, "Well, can I just go back to sleep?" But anyway, Lucifer keeps insisting that, like, "You're so special. You're a vessel." And Nick is not engaging in the conversation, but he's not not engaging in a conversation.

C: Yeah, like, he's being sarcastic, but he's also like, listening. [G: Actually trying to listen, yeah.] I think he does feel like a generally real person during most of this conversation. I think it mostly worked for me. Except for the murder part.

G: Lucifer says, "I need to take control of your mind and your body," which is very interesting. I thought it was just a body thing. But yeah. Lucifer says, "To be honest, it'll probably be unpleasant for you, but it is necessary." Like, he keeps on saying like, "Don't be afraid. It's your choice, and you need to invite me in." So yeah, pretty fun. And Nick says, "Why would I do that?" And Lucifer says, "You call me 'Satan' and 'devil' [C laughs], but do you know my crime? I loved God too much. [C laughing] And for that, he betrayed me. Punished me, just as he's punished you."

C: People need to ask follow-up questions more during their angel possession bouts. [G: For real.] Like, Jimmy should have asked follow-up questions. Nick definitely should have asked follow-up questions about "What the fuck do you mean 'loved God too much'?"

G: [laughs] Yeah. "After all, how could how could God stand idly by while the man broke into your house and butchered your family in their beds?"

C: Was Nick like, on a business trip? Wasn't his wife's bed also his bed?

G: I mean, I was thinking maybe that's why he woke up bloodied like that. And it's like [C: Yeah.], did he wake up beside his bloody wife with blood on the sheets?

C: Yeah, I guess if a demon did it, it would make sense that they skipped over him.

G: And then, you know, Lucifer said, "Well, either God's sadistic, or he simply doesn't care." And then, you know, "You're angry. You have every right to be. I am angry, too. And we will find him and hold him accountable. Just because he created us, doesn't mean he can toy with us like playthings."

C: "Just because he created us doesn't mean he can toy with us like toys." [laughs] Like, that's what he's saying. [G: Yeah.] Like, stop trying to do figurative language [G laughing] and just using the thesaurus. Like, you're not Dean Winchester.

G: Yeah. Well, one thing about Dean Winchester is he will know a way around a sentence. [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] He has a GED, a give 'em hell attitude, and a special thesaurus that only he has access to. [C laughing]

C: Yeah. And he'll figure it out. [G: He will figure it out.] So this isn't- Is this Lucifer's plan? How's this related to him killing Michael? Can't he just find God without that?

G: Obviously, he's lying to this guy!

C: I mean, yes, but like, does it any part of him want to hold God accountable, and what does that look like for him?

G: I don't know. I mean, when we do meet God, Lucifer does lock himself up inside Sam's room [laughs] and plays emo music or something. So. [C: Huh. Okay.] Supernatural becomes so unserious, so fast. Nick says, "Are you gonna bring back my family?" And Lucifer says, "No, but I can give you the next best thing. Justice." which did remind me of the Mary bit. [C: Mary scene.] So yeah. And Nick says, "How do I know you're telling the truth?" Lucifer says, "Because I don't lie. I don't need to. What I need is you." It's so fucking annoying. But yeah, "Need you to say yes." And Nick does.

C: We see, like, a big ol' bright light out of the window. It's fun.

G: Yeah, it is a nice visual.

C: Lucifer so far has spoken through a dead nun and through Nick's dead wife. Like, do you think Supernatural was trying to do anything with gender there, or?

G: Hm. I mean, as I've said, he speaks through Jess also, so. I don't know, like, maybe something something, Eve visualization.

C: Yeah. Sure. Why not?

C: We're at the hospital. We hear outside of Bobby's room, him yelling. "Unlikely to walk again? Why, you snot-nosed son of a bitch. Wait 'til I get out of this bed. I'll use my game leg and kick your frigging ass. Yeah, you better run."

G: The doctor is running away? Or the nurse or-

C: Yeah, the doctor is running away. And it's like, I feel like doctors deal with patients that yell at them like, pretty frequently, according to documentary House M.D.

G: Also like, don't run! I feel like it's not a running situation. Is Bobby dying? Are you gonna get a crash cart? Like, what's happening? [both laugh]

C: No, it just seems to be like, "Bobby is so mean that the doctor's running away."

G: No, I mean, that's the implication. It's just unrealistic and stupid.

C: It is unrealistic and stupid, I agree. And Dean's like, "No! Like, he's so wrong. You'll be fine." And yeah, you're right that this is the start of Bobby's disability arc. There's like, sad music playing over the scene, including the yelling. It's like, "Oh, look at this futile, sad, old man like, in denial about how he'll never walk again," blah blah blah, and, I don't know. I guess I'll have a better grasp on what they're trying to do here when we see more episodes of Season 5. I don't have much hope about it. Like, what do you remember about this?

G: Well, it's Crohwley who heals him. It's Cr-ow-ley [C: Cr-ow-ley.] who heals him. That's all I remember. [C: Right.] And also at some point, he will come. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure he will complain about it at some point. [C: Yeah.] And the iconic group picture is [overlapping] of him in a wheelchair.

C: Yeah. Sam goes, "Let me ask the million dollar question, what do we do now?" People have been asking this all episode, Sam. You aren't original.

G: He literally like, does the whole buildup to it, too, and it's like, "Sam, shut the fuck up." [both laugh]

C: And Bobby's just like, "Okay, well, we're fucked no matter what. But let's just save as many people as we can, for as long as we can." And Dean goes, "But what if we win? I'm serious. Like, screw the angels of the demons and their crap apocalypse. If they want to fight a war, they can find their own planet. This one's ours, and I say, get the hell off it. Like, let's just kill Satan and also Michael, like, all by ourselves!" And Bobby's like, "How?" And Dean goes, "I got no idea. But what I do have is a GED and a give 'em hell attitude, and I'll figure it out." [G: Ah!] It's weird that they used a clip from the clicky AMV in the actual show. [G: Yeah, I know!] I hope the original Creator gets credit.

G: Exactly. Every time Supernatural shows a clip from the clicky AMV, I'm like, "Wow, just like in the clicky AMV."

C: Yeah, like, they took that from the clicky AMV. Crazy. And Bobby's like, kinda- he doesn't really believe that this will happen. But he does feel buoyed up by Dean's words.

G: He is amused. And Sam too! Sam's like, smiling.

C: Yeah, they're both cheered up. And Dean's like, "Hey, Bobby. Like, you stay on the mend. We'll see you in a bit." And he and Sam are about to head out, but then before Sam goes, Bobby is a really nice guy. He goes, "Sam, I was awake while I was possessed. I know what I said back there. I just want you to know that that was the demon talking. I ain't cutting you out, boy. Not ever." Aww! I don't believe it. It's like, this isn't like, Bobby to me, but like, if they say it is, okay, I'll take it.

G: I mean, you cannot believe it, but it's undeniable that it's true by the end of Bobby's run, so. [C: Okay.] He'll never cut him out as a coworker. [both laughing] I still cannot- There's this one scene in a flashback episode where they're throwing a ball [both laughing], and the only kid there is Dean. And it's the big "Bobby was their dad." And it's like, that's just Dean! Love it. [C: Love it.] He only started talking to Sam when Sam was like, 16. And it was like, an employment thing. [both laughing] Sam was interning for him.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Sam like, sort of pauses for a bit. And he goes, "Thanks, Bobby." And Bobby goes, "You're welcome. I deserve a damn medal for this, but you're welcome." And they exchange smiles, and it's nice.

G: Sam is so smiley now! And he's like, pleased with himself. Maybe he was like, you know, he's like, "Dean doesn't wanna talk about it. But at least here's Bobby, who has told me that I'm absolved. And also, like, Dean is being optimistic, and that's nice."

C: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

G: And then they go out. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, they go outside, and it's all fucked to hell. Sam's saying, like, "Hey, how about like, let's go after the Colt." And, you know, both this and his earlier, like, "Million dollar question, what do we do now?" is him being like, "Okay, like, I can get with Dean's program. Like, let's just focus on the plot, let's just focus on the Apocalypse. I can do this." But Dean can't do it. Dean goes, "What difference would that make?" And Sam's like, "Well, we can use it on Lucifer," which literally isn't true [laughs] because Lucifer is an angel.

G: Wait, why is not true?

C: Can the Colt kill angels, too?

G: The Colt can kill anyone. Any creature.

C: Okay. If angels, like, if no one even fucking knew about angels, how does Samuel Colt know that it can kill angels as well?

G: Well, they don't know, but it does!

C: Okay, I just- yeah. I just would not be so quick to jump to that conclusion. But yeah. So apparently, you could use the Colt on Lucifer. And Sam's like, "I mean, you just said back there-" and Dean goes, "I just said a bunch of crap for Bobby's benefit." Ugh. Sad! And he says, like, "Yeah, I'll like, fight until the end, but we're still screwed. And you know that. I mean, hell. You of all people know that." What does that even mean? [laughs]

G: I mean, I think it's "You screwed us up."

C: But, like, how's that related to like, their chances?

G: I don't know. I mean, actually, I don't know. I think maybe it's just- Was Sam pessimistic earlier? Did Sam say anything, suggest that he doesn't believe that there's anything they could do.

C: No, Sam hasn't really said much. [G: Okay.] Dean's like, heading towards the car, and then Sam goes, "Dean." And Dean stops, and Sam goes, "Is there something you want to say to me?" And Dean thinks for a second, and he goes, "I tried, Sammy. I mean, I really tried, but I just can't keep pretending that everything's alright. Because it's not! And it's never going to be! Evah! [G: Evah!] You chose a demon over your own brother!" which we already discussed that this literally makes no sense unless you think that Dean is so sure that the voicemail went through correctly, Sam listened to it, and then chose to do that anyway, which I think is not- I mean, okay. Like, if there was like, a scene in 4.22 or 5.01 where like, Dean's like, "So you got my voicemail?" And Sam goes, "Yeah." I feel like that would do so much for their relationship [G laughs] in terms of like, ways that we could interpret it. Like, that's juicy. And they don't put it in. So like.

G: Yeah! You know what happened- you know what they should have done is, the moment Dean was able to enter that room, instead of turning Ruby around [laughs], like, right before he stabs Ruby, he goes, "Wait, did you get my voicemail?" [C laughing] And he's like, "Yeah." "Okay!" and then stabs ruby.

C: For realsies. Yeah, whatever. "You chose a demon-" Okay. But I don't think he means it just in the voicemail way. I think it's just like, [G: In generally.] [whiny] "I told you to stop talking to that girl, and then you still did!" [laughs] And for Dean, that's equivalent to choosing Ruby over him, which is dumb. Sam is just standing there, taking this, and looking sad and remorseful and shit. Ugh. "You chose a demon over your own brother." It's stupid! It's stupid. We've already talked about how Dean's approach to arguments is just "Do what I say, because it's me and you like me more," and like, that's just his thing for years and years and years. So like, that bullshit paired with his "I refuse to hear you explain any of your thoughts or choices" bullshit is like, what creates him thinking that Sam "chose a demon over his own brother." Like, he didn't. You just created like, ultimatums at like, step 1 instead of like, step 20. And like, you created them in your mind. You thought that Sam, like, just being like, "No, I'll still talk to Ruby" after you were like, "I don't like that you talked to Ruby." You thought that was like, Sam being like, "That means I like Ruby more than you and also I don't want to be your brother anymore," because, I don't know, Dean's standards for what it means to be loyal are just crazy and weird. [G: Completely fucked, yeah.] C: Yeah, like, what Sam did was he chose a strategy for stopping the Apocalypse that he thought had a better chance of success than the one that Dean wanted to do. Like, that's it!

G: Yeah. I don't know. Supernatural is fucked up. It's fucked up.

C: Yeah. [laughs] So true. [G laughs] And then Dean ends the sentence with, "And look what happened!" Ugh, I hate when Supernatural decides Dean's right about everything and then uses the plot to justify it. I hate it so much!

G: I don't know. I will see where the rest of Season 5 comes, because I feel like I misremember a lot of this, so I will hold my tongue. [C: Okay.] I do- this scene very much does feel like- you know that fucking thing where it's like, that text post says, like, "A Supernatural episode throughout is like, Sam being like, 'Dean, we should talk about it,' and Dean being like, 'No, we shouldn't!' And then at the end, Dean being like, 'Actually, we should talk about it! I'm so sad and upset all the time!' [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] And then Sam being like, 'Okay.'" [both laughing] It's like- That's this episode. [C: Yeah. That is how it is.] This is what I mean when I when I say like, I don't know. Just don't talk about it when it wouldn't do anything. [C: When you're not ready to talk about it.] Yeah, like, when you're ready to talk about it, or ready to actually do anything to resolve the thing. 'Cause it'll just- "Okay, now we're all miserable, and we're all aware of how we're all miserable, and we can't do anything about it." I'm like, "Okay, fine." [C: Okay, yeah.] But also like, this thing is like, Sam was like, "I want to explain." And Dean was like, "No." But now that Dean is like, "Let's talk," it's just Dean talking, and that is incredibly frustrating. [C: Yeah.] Because it's like- because you view- put everything in a box inside of you, like, when it starts filling out, there's no room for anyone else to talk. [C: Yeah.] So there's also that aspect, I suppose. Although my thoughts on this is "shut the fuck up, everyone!" [C laughs] Like, solve the Apocalypse, and now we're done. And just meet once every two months.

C: Resentment builds up, and I think it decreases their Apocalypse-stopping efficiency if they don't talk about it eventually. But probably not first episode.

G: Yeah, probably not.

C: Yeah. Sam goes, "I would give anything. Anything to take it all back." Sorry, Sam. [G: "I know you will."] Yeah, Dean does say, "I know you would. And I know how sorry you are. I do. But man, you were the one that I depend on the most. And you let me down in ways that I can't even-"

G: [laughing] He said, "You let me down in all the ways that we know and then some that we don't!" [C laughs]

C: Literally. And okay, I think this part, I do sort of understand where he's coming from, just that, like, Sam did lie to him a lot. But like, I don't know. Whatever. [laughs] Whatever. That's how I feel about that. [G: Yeah.] Dean says, "I'm having a hard time forgiving and forgetting here, you know." And Sam says, "What can I do?" And Dean goes, "Honestly, nothing." And Sam just nods, looks sad, looks accepting. And Dean continues by saying, "I just don't think that we can ever be what we were, you know?" And another nod, another accepting look. I guess this is like, the most they've gone against each other before.

G: Wait, wasn't there an episode where Sam goes, "You and I, we can work together, but we're not gonna be brothers." [laughs] I think that's next episode, actually.

C: Oh, okay. Spoiler!

G: Sorry sorry sorry. I was thinking about it, and I was like, "Was that Season 5 or was that later in the show?" And I'm not sure.

C: And then finally, Dean goes, "I just don't think I can trust you." And Sam does look up at this. Like, he does look upset at this last one. Dean just starts walking away from him, and we get like, an overhead shot of Dean walking towards the Impala [G: And Sam stays where he is.], and Sam's just standing there in the middle of the road for any car to hit. [laughs]

G: Yeah. And, you know, it's the visual of distance growing bigger and bigger. It's pretty fun. [C: Yeah, pretty fun.]

G: Well, how did we feel, etc? I liked this episode. [C: It was decent.] I didn't love it. It's, I think it's one of the first episodes where I'm not egregiously mad at everything. [C: Mm, yeah.] I feel like the last two were kind of in that department of like, "It's confusing. I'm mad." I don't know. This one, even if there's less Cas, it's still fun.

C: I feel like I generally did enjoy it like, like, maybe more than I enjoyed 4.22. [G: But you didn't enjoy that.] Yeah, I don't think it's as well-written as 4.22, but like, I was more engaged than I was in 4.22.

G: Yeah. But also, this one is beginning of a season, so like, they're introducing new things, so the excitement is still there, you know? Vs like-

C: Yeah, I was very excited to see Meg and Cas. So that was all fun.

G: Yeah. Well, Best Line/Worst Line.

C: Yeah. My best line, as I said, was when Meg says, "You know we're all dreaming again for the first time since we were human?" I think it's just so fun! I think it's just so fun. I love the way she talks.

G: Yeah, my best line is, "We need to find Cas," because I did scream, "Oh my god, it's Team Free Will!" when it happened. And it literally is. [C: Yeah.] Worst line?

C: I don't know. I mean, there were lines that I was like, "These are clunky," but I don't remember one specifically.

G: Yeah, me too. I don't actually have a worst line. Oh, also, I really like the "It's been a stressful day!" by Chuck. [C laughs] I think that was fun. I think Chuck was really fun this episode. And yeah, very fun.I don't know. I don't really have a line that I don't like, I suppose.

C: Yeah, the things I was mad at mostly were like, just in-character things and I was just mad at the character.

G: Oh, I have a line that I don't like. [C: Okay.] I mean, the Becky stuff, I suppose, is-

C: Oh, I totally forgot about her!

G: She does speak her fanfiction out loud, so those are lines.

C: Yeah, yeah, no, those are quite bad lines. Let's not have those lines.

G: Yeah. Well, spreadsheet! Spread those sheets.

C: Misogyny?

G: Misogyny. For misogyny, I would say, it's there.

C: There was Becky.

G: Oh, definitely. That's like-

C: Yeah, Becky's a lot.

G: I feel like a 3. A 3.

C: Wow, already? Okay. Okay.

G: Yeah, I think so.

C: Yeah, I think if we combine the laziness with the Meg sexual assault character thing, I think [G: Could be a 4?] that takes us to a 3. No, I think that takes us to a 3.

G: Racism. I don't think there's any character of color in this thing, in this episode.

C: Yeah, and they don't manage to be racist. Do they say anything racist? I don't think so.

G: Don't think so. And then homophobia. I mean, no, I don't think so.

C: Is the "He looks like Cate Blanchett" thing something? [G: That's homophobic?] It's probably more of a misogyny, I think.

G: No, I think that's a homophobia.

C: Okay, alright. Let's go for it. [overlapping] Let's give it a 1. Right.

G: Is Cate Blanchett already famous for playing lesbians in 2009? [C: What works was she in?] Is she famous for playing lesbians, or is she famous to me for playing lesbians?

C: I think she's only famous to you for playing lesbians.

G: Okay, great. Well.

C: IMDb?

G: Oh, yeah. The IMDb rating for this episode. What do you think is it?

C: Ehh. 8.9. Why not?

G: 8.9. That's pretty high. You know what? I will go 8.8, because I'm a coward, and I lost last time.

C: Yeah. Should I be the leader of the IMDb scoring this season?

G: Yes! This season, yeah yeah yeah!

C: Okay, sounds good.

G: [laughing] It is an 8.7!

C: Good job. You got close.

G: Thank you so much! Thank you so much. [C: Congratulations.] Saur much, even.

C: Agh, the IMDb thumbnail for it is [both] Meg. So true.

G: So true! This one said when they finished Season 4, they thought the show has gone too far, but it hasn't, and it's only gotten better. "I think this season is going to be one of the best episodes, keeps you guessing and not only that allows you to really understand things much better." [laughs] I'm not sure about this glowing praise. I mean, I know I said that the episode was great- I mean, good- but okay.

C: "I admit I'm one of the people who has never been that 'wowed' by the character of Bobby. I mean, he's an alright character, [G laughs] and I don't mind his helping out/aiding the boys occasionally, but I think that, due to his popularity with a lot of people, we kind of got over-saturated with Bobby appearances in Season 4. And, really, given how everyone hates the boys being rescued by female characters all the time, why should it be any different with male characters?" Soo true! [G laughs] "I also don't appreciate the way he talks to Sam or Dean at certain times." [G: Love that.] And then they say that the reason that you can tell he's possessed is that we see him walking into the building holding his cap instead of already having it on his head!

G: Oh my god! No, I think that is true. I think that is true. [C: Hell yeah. Yeah.] [laughs] This one like, recaps the entire episode from start to finish. I love that!

C: Yeah. Yeah. That's our job, though!

G: That's our job, and we do it for four hours long! [both laugh] This go, "They head to Chuck's house only to find him terrified and we find out that Castiel is dead. (Oh noooo, but hold your tears it gets worse)." I love that.

C: Wait, why does it get worse? What's worse than Cas being dead?

G: I actually don't know. I think it's just that Bobby almost died, [C: Whatever!] and then at the end, they go, "Happy, happy, happy, Cas is not dead, Bobby is not dead, all seems right in the world." [C: Ye.] Well, what else? "Cas's doubts are here-" no. I literally just look up Cas-

C: This person does mention like, it's gross that Becky refuses to stop touching Sam. "This would never have occurred with the genders reversed." I don't know if that's necessarily true on Supernatural, but maybe. "The writers eventually realized this and finally course correct a bit in season 15 but still yikes." This is true.

G: I don't think it would not happen when the genders are reversed due to we have the wishing well episode [C: Yeah.] and I think many things about that one, have said many things about how Supernatural will deal with other things. [C: Yeah, yeah.] This one says, "The fiction is super, a legendary script, the cas character is awesome" as the title, and then the review is, "The fiction is super, a legendary script, the cas character is awesome." I understand it wholeheartedly.

G: So that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 2: "Good God, Y’all." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: Email us at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

#transcript

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