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#major adrien salt
miraculermarinette · 1 year
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I saw a fanfiction where Chat noir gets tired of all of Ladybug's "Bullsh*t" and Takes Goes to work alone and defeats hwakmoth all by himself ( also told the media that ladybug is a hypothetical psycho ) and su-han Took ladybug's earrings away and made chat noir the gaurdian 😐
WOOWW
In the fiction, the writer probably thinks that Marinette is a creepy stalker and morally incorrect but at the same time, think that Chat Noir making false claims about Ladybug being a psycho is ok?
And let's be real, idk how Chat noir was in the fiction but in the actual show, he isn't nearly as smart and powerful enough to beat Hawkmoth all by himself.
Also, the writer says Chat is tired of Ladybug's bullsh*t and so does the work himself. Idk if the fic is set in some alternate universe or smth but if it is in the same one, then they really need to watch the show properly bcoz Chat Noir is literally the one who can't take fights seriously and disturbs LB who is the only one in the duo that cares about saving ppl.
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nobodyfamousposts · 4 months
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Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?
Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.
Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.
Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:
Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.
Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.
It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.
And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.
But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:
His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.
His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.
His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.
These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.
BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.
So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?
Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.
This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming—if anything, he was fighting against her. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.
And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.
This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Talks like he’s wise in a situation he seems to have a childish and one-sided view of. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons too late when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).
And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support or in any way help her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".
And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.
So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.
But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.
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theerurishipper · 5 months
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Just saw a post that said Adrien is a love bomber... are we really throwing buzzwords around for the sake of salting on Adrien, the abuse victim? Love bombing is an emotional manipulation tactic, and it is usually paired with the cycle of abuse. Adrien is not abusive. He is not emotionally manipulating Marinette. He is showing her affection. I guess we're demonizing showing our loved ones any sort of affection now...
Yeah fr, people will throw around all kinds of words istg. This is the definition of love bombing:
Love bombing is a tactic in which someone “bombs” you with extreme displays of attention and affection with the intent to manipulate you. Although being showered with "love" can seem positive at the beginning of a romantic relationship, love bombing can lead to gaslighting and abuse. Psychologists caution it might be a tactic used by a narcissist or sociopath in an attempt to control you.
Anyways, Adrien doesn't do this. In fact, this is what Gabriel does to Adrien. From this article:
In a relationship with a pathological predator, love bombing is combined with intermittent reinforcement to create a sense of instability and longing in the victim. Intermittent reinforcement (in the context of psychological abuse) is a pattern of cruel, callous treatment mixed in with periodic affection. The abuser hands out rewards such as affection, a compliment, or gifts sporadically and unpredictably throughout the abuse cycle. This causes the victim to perpetually seek their approval while settling for the crumbs of their occasional positive behavior.
This is exactly what Gabriel does. Whenever it seems like Adrien is rebelling against him because he is tired of Gabriel's neglect, Gabriel will offer him a little concession. Adrien is rebelling against him? Fine, let him go to school. In this way, Adrien doesn't rebel against his father anymore, and Gabriel can keep him under his control, because now Adrien will continue to believe the best of his father and will continue to try and earn his love. Another example is in Gorizilla. Adrien gets tired of Gabriel stopping him from seeing his mother's movie, and sneaks out. Later, Gabriel allows him to watch the movie, and throws in a little bit of gaslighting in there, essentially blaming Adrien for not being open with him and making him feel guilty, when it's his own fault his son didn't open up to him, which is because he's a neglectful asshat.
This is Gabriel and Adrien's relationship. Adrien stays with his father and tries so hard to please him, because Gabriel has instilled in him that love is something conditional that is to be earned. And whenever it seems like Adrien is breaking away from this mentality, Gabriel will do something "nice" for him, which will bring Adrien right back, because he's an abused child who wants to believe the best of his father and wants his love and affection.
Again, to quote the article:
As author Adylen Birch writes, “Creating fear of losing the relationship and then relieving it periodically with episodes of love and attention is the perfect manipulation.” Much like the way a gambler at a slot machine becomes addicted to playing the game for a potential win despite the risk of major loss, a victim in the abuse cycle can become attached to the idea of getting a return on their investment in the relationship despite the toll it takes on their well-being.
There's actually an example of this in the show. From Illusion:
Adrien: Speaking of which, Dad, I'm not really comfortable with having my face on all these rings. That's actually why I didn't want to be a model anymore, to avoid that. Do you understand? Gabriel: Of course, I understand, my son. But that's the point; it's just an image, it's not you! And since this image frees you from your obligations, we, the Agrestes, are able to spend more time together. But if you'd rather everything went back to the way it was before, just say the word. Adrien: (wears the Alliance ring on his index finger) You're probably right.
Gabriel even explicitly says what he's doing, which is holding the threat of going back to their previous relationship over his son's head to emotionally manipulate him. To refer back to the article, he creates the fear of losing the relationship in Adrien, and then makes a big deal of showing that he cares so much about Adrien and his future, and he makes him breakfast. This is love-bombing. And so, Adrien goes along with whatever Gabriel wants as long as he doesn't lose it. And so, he continues to do what Gabriel wants, which is to accept the Alliance rings and his image being used in ways he doesn't want. And true enough, Adrien goes back to defending his father after he finally worked up the courage to confront him for his shit in the beginning.
Adrien: My father? But Nino, he's changed, he's making an effort, and it's the first time he's coming to school!
I could go on, and there are several examples of this in the show, but then we'd be here forever. But I highly recommend that article. I just read it, and it is literally Gabriel and Adrien, oh my god. It's very informative and I think we should all be aware of this.
But anyways, back to your question anon (sorry for the tangent). Adrien doesn't love bomb. Adrien is just very affectionate. He doesn't withdraw affection from anyone, he doesn't make them settle for scraps. He doesn't try to manipulate anyone, he doesn't gaslight anyone, he doesn't try to make them seek his approval. Adrien is always kind and loving towards everybody he cares for.
In fact, Adrien does the exact opposite. He fawns over others, and he tries to earn their love and approval. This is because of Gabriel's abuse. And to accuse him of love bombing is so disgusting. Honestly, people just throw those words around like candy. But then again, I've seen what the side of the fandom that might have said this usually says, and it's usually the same victim-blamey abuse apologist rhetoric, so I'm not even surprised.
Thank you for your ask!
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hamsteriffic · 3 months
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Miraculous Fandom Stats 2023
A Visit to Gotham
…and beyond
As promised here are my stats for Miraculous Ladybug fics on Ao3 with crossovers only. To see a snapshot for Miraculous Ladybug without crossovers click here.
📈 The data presented here is a snapshot of the Fandom on 06 Jan 2024
Don't be mad! I'm just a stats hamster.
🖤 Proportion of Crossover fics
At the time of posting, Crossover Fics accounted for 13% of the total fanfics on Ao3 (9177 works) (Fig 1A). They were predominantly featured in Batman All Media Types (5097 works) or DCU (1034 works), accounting for 68% of all crossover fics (Fig 1D). The majority of the works were rated for General (39%) or Teen Audiences (39%) (Fig 1B).
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Fig 1. Proportion of Miraculous Ladybug works posted on Ao3 in 2023 [A] featuring crossovers (grey) and without crossovers (black); [B] and the proportion of all works posted on Ao3 as of January 06, 2024 (9177 works). [C] The proportion of cross-overs outside of the MariBat fandom as well as [D] the growth of the top ten fandoms in crossovers in 2023 (red) are also presented.
Excluding works from the MariBat fandom, the second highest number of works to be crossovered with ML was Boko No Hero Academia with 348 works (3%) and is also the fastest growing crossover fandom, almost doubling in works in 2023 (141 new works) (Fig 1C-D).
🖤 Top 10 Fandom Crossovers
Here are the crossovers in a Table format.
Table 1. Top 10 Fandoms in 2023 and percentage change compared to 2022.
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Popular Tags used in 2023 (number of works) and percent change compared to 2022:
Fluff (246): -2%
Angst (161): -1%
Badass Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug (130): -1%
Lila Rossi Bashing (127): +1%
Alternate Universe (100): -7%
Hurt/Comfort (94): -2%
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🖤 Top 5 Relationships
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Fig 2. Top 5 relationships in ML crossover fics in 2023 and percentage change when compared to the year prior.
While works tagged with Adrien/Marinette has increased by 3% in 2023 when compared to the year before (Fig 2) the top 5 relationship pairings have not changed with Daminette taking first place.
Relationship Tags with Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug across all time (from Highest to Lowest):
Damien Wayne (1870 fics)
Adrien Agreste (1237 fics)
Jason Todd (806 fics)
Tim Drake (580 fics)
Dick Grayson (321 fics)
Hope this entertained you! Until 2024, same stats time, same stats channel.
Sodium Content and Methodology below the cut:
🖤 Top 5 Salt Categories
Look, Marinette is in Gotham for a reason. Usually it’s because of some sort of common table condiment/seasoning. Here is a breakdown:
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Fig 3. Frequently tagged salt and character bashing tags across all crossover works prior to 2023 (green) and new works posted/updated subsequent to Jan 01, 2023 (dark blue). The change in numbers to the previous year (where present) are indicated.
Methods
Partitioning
To see changes in crossover fics in the ML fandom over time, I have tracked the number of crossovers posted to Ao3 per year.
Data was filtered by the date the fic was last posted, between 01 Jan - 31 Dec for each year.
Note that older fics may get updated, this data is only a reflection of the fandom at one moment in time. This analysis was performed 06 Jan 2024.
Filtering
Note that I have followed the Ao3 definition of a slash representing romantic relationships and & indicates platonic relationships.
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imthepunchlord · 2 months
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What would be the perfect "Miraculous team" for you?
At this point, the characters that do stand out most to me as major players that could be on a plausible team are: Marinette, Adrien, Felix, Alya, Nino, Kagami, and Zoe.
Honorable mentions/maybes: Ali, Aurore, Chloe, Lila, Juleka, Ivan, and Kim.
Marinette is a must. I do really enjoy writing her, and making my desired tweaks, and it is kinda a shame a lot of recent writing with her is in salt response to canon treatment. It's a big part of the reason I'm on an ML writing break. But she's a must. Most likely with kwami swaps as I am kinda done with her as Ladybug and working off Tikki. Tikki I think could better serve elsewhere and Marinette could be refreshing working off a different personality.
Adrien by default is kinda a must, though his biggest help is that he has a lot of options in what can be done with him. Could go along canon as starting off as a goofball hero that will get serious (though still keep his sense of humor), and be at a crossroads of working with his father or going against him. He could also work with Gabriel at the start, either openly or secretly, and through friendship finds himself as a crossroad. Could also do him joining later, initially exploring him as a civilian, maybe he runs the Ladyblog and wants to unmask heroes and he's extra excited cause his father is actually supportive and invested in his interest. There's some good options for him.
Felix is a must, partly from bias, but he does have a good established arc from starting as an antagonistic loner to turning to a true hero. And the stiff, skeptic, passive aggressive personality he can have could be a good counter to other personalities. And if you want to work off cnaon, he can go absolute gremlin.
Alya is another must. Frustrating as she is, she's a character I see a lot of potential for. Like, a lot of the "lessons" Marinette is expected to learn would better apply to her. And like Adrien, she'd be a great character if she was allowed to learn and improve. And I see a lot of potential in exploring her as a hero at the start, cause you got Alya wanting to start out for glory and attention, kinda treats it as a game initially, and she's on the side of reckless with secrecy, and I just see a lot of good potential for her as a major lead to follow at the start. Learning that heroing isn't all fun and glory, sometimes it's hard, and with reveals, there are pros to it, but there are also cons. She could really add to the secrecy vs reveal debate.
Nino is kinda here by default, but the boy needs something. Ideally something to let him stand on his own, especially outside Alya and Adrien. And one of the best ways to do that is explore him as a Miraculous hero at the start. And he wants to be a film director, so, maybe his focus arc could relate to leadership, learning to develop those skills, awareness of his team and what they can do, and how to best direct them. I will say, of this list, I could also roll with Nino as the supportive civilian friend who grounds one of the leads as he is a character who doesn't have a lot going on.
Kagami, despite all her issues as a character, is a character that caught my attention in Riptose. And while she got a lot of odd choices and polarizing characterization, taking the scattered pieces I can see a potential character being crafted. You got potential in her as the blunt ice queen who's overly dedicated and a little too serious, she wants to make friends but she's socially awkward and can come off as mean, she wants to make her mom proud but she also feels stifled. And by her official skills, she's one of the few characters that could actually vigilante and help the heroes without a Miraculous, or try to compete with them as her mom is tasking her with the chance to fight superhumans and prove herself.
Zoe is in a weird boat as she came in so late and I stopped watching ML so I didn't click with her all that well, but seeing more of her as Kitty and the apparent partner for Alya, it did prompt me to think and consider her more and brainstorm ideas. There's definitely something to work off of with her wanting to please Chloe and pretending to follow her along, but that's not who Zoe is and she can have an arc of figuring herself out, dealing with the tension and mistrust that her relation with Chloe brings, and letting herself flourish. Adjustments though would have to be made for her to come in sooner or be at Paris at the start, either as Chloe's younger sister or maybe twin, or her cousin, or we rip off the bandaid of the vague Bourgeois union, say they're divorced, and Audrey remarried and Zoe is Chloe's stepsister and she's up in Paris so they can "bond". I will say, with her coming in so late, she's also a character I can just exclude.
For honorable mentions where I can see potential or fun or I wish they had more attention:
Ali has a lot of the same appeals as Adrien, is shown to be very sweet, and I am bummed so little was done with him. He's not present enough to warrant being on the main team, but I like him enough that I should try and write more with him.
Chloe I can acknowledge has potential as a character, and that chance of a redemption arc is there, and she can be loads of fun to write. But I also feel irritated with her as she was a waste of time. I get they were halfheartedly going for "will she be good or will she be evil", but it was such a butcher job and you could tell the team was split, and instead of compromising, they just put in both potential to be good and her clearly not going to get better. And I'm just stuck in that irritating spot where I can SEE the potential but she may ultimately better serve as a villain/antagonist.
And this is where Aurore comes in, having all the perks of Chloe being haughty and proud, but none of the downsides. She was a lot of fun to write in Leave for Mendeleiev, and honestly, when I started ML with Stormy Weather, I actually thought she was a major character since she had the initial focus point. Color me surprise when she ultimately became a background character. And then disappeared for a while.
Lila is in a similar boat to Chloe, and honestly between them on who should get a redemption, it's pretty even them for me as they're both terrible. But we didn't NEED two mean girls to go against Marinette. Now, if they were a rival/foil to another character, and Marinette just worked mostly off one of them, then having two mean girls could've worked better. Either way, Lila redemption would have to be around Volpina, cause Chameleon and onward is a trainwreck and there's no way to pick up the pieces of that. And for a chracter who lies a lot, can be petty and spiteful, she has promise to be a lot of fun, and to bring a lot of chaos.
Between the two Couffaine siblings, Juleka is the one I see a lot of potential for writing wise, as she does have that established struggle of trying to find her voice. And by her livelihood, you could play off the comedy of her being chaotic but chill, and ready to take things to the extremes (like kidnapping). And there's the friendship potential that canon tapped into with her and Marinette's shared interest in fashion (I actually think that if the show was more realistic on friend pairs, Marinette would've been in a trio with Juleka and Rose).
Kim is on this list because he cracks me up. Peak himbo but surprisingly wise. That is if we can ignore how he got ruined in s5.
Lastly, Ivan. He was actually the first classmate I really paid attention to, and I saw a promising story to work off with him. Watching Origins, you see most of the class is intimidated by him, so I thought he could have an arc of changing people's perspective, instead of him being feared he's seen as a protector. Which kinda got speedran in the background, but I guess we can't have a plus size character as the focal point. But I'd like to do him as a major lead sometime.
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snitchesnsneeds · 8 days
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It's Chameleon Time, and I Don't Mean the Cool Lizard
I decided to watch Miraculous Season 3 Episode 1: Chameleon, the salt episode, because I suddenly decided I wanted to know how real the salt was again. Here's my thoughts:
Damn, Lila's good. She has backdoors for her lies and the only one I'd really call bad was the napkin one, but then again these are 14-15-year-olds in 2015-2016. They probably believe in the secret Grillby boss fight after beating Sans in genocide.
Despite being the two biggest targets for the salters, Adrien and Alya were incredibly chill here. Adrien was doing what he thought was best for the context and would defnitely change is mind if he heard Lila threatened Marinette, while Alya was one one most on Marinette's side. They're besties.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Marinette was just jealous of Lila at first until she threatened Marinette in the bathroom stall. Her grievances were more at Lila throughout the episode than what she was doing to the class.
Marinette, all you had to do was excuse yourself to the bathroom, transform, and explain the situation to Nino and Alya.
In general the closest thing to hostile the class was to Marinette was Kim and Mylene calling her out for throwing stuff at Lila (a major no-no there,) and a few moments where they all looked mad at her, probably because it would be cheaper instead of giving them all different reactions.
I have to wonder if a lot of the stuff Lila does in fics is real or not. I know she makes people do the work she doesn't want to do, but do future episodes showcase her as a con artist like in the fics? It wouldn't be surprising, at the very least.
Did anyone seriously believe Chameleon's ruse as Adrien? It's like she was trying to be horrible. I could do a better job at both lying to appeal to the class and posing as Adrien.
If Lila continues to be as evil as I think she's gonna be, I hope she gets turned into a clam more often even though I know that won't happen.
So yeah, that was the salt episode. Here's my beliefs on how the class views Lila with one bonus:
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And also @flightfoot because I know you were curious.
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ML Plot Point: Lila
I change almost nothing about S1. This applies to most thing in S1 tbh. Just minor details so that I can keep things consistent on later seasons.
I still haven’t decided if I’d have her stay during S2. On one hand I really loathe the fact that canon just had a supposedly major character fuck off for an entire season. On the other hand, I have no clue what I would have her do during that season. At the very least, I would show her  FaceTiming the classmates to set a few things up for S3.
S3 is when the big changes happen. I’m having Alya believe Lila over Marinette for one single reason: Lila knows oddly specific details about Heroes’ Day that she shouldn’t know, and Ladybug hasn’t shown up to prove she’s lying. This, in Alya’s mind, means that she has to be friends with Ladybug. The audience knows it’s because she got akumatised willingly, but Alya doesn’t even know she was present. It also recontextualises Alya’s decision to believe Lila. It’s not Marinette vs Lila, it’s Marinette vs Lila AND Ladybug.
On top of that, one of the specific things Lila tells Alya is that Rena Rouge was the one who messed up and got the rest of the temps akumatised (which is kinda true, but not really her fault) and that Ladybug is thinking about benching her permanently. Lila does not know that Alya is RR, but she does see how that particular lie affects Alya and uses it for all its worth.
This goes on for a while, with Lila subtly trying to make Marinette’s life more miserable until my equivalent of the Ladybug episode happens (I’ll elaborate on that one in another post) late in the season and Alya figures out that she’s lying. After that episode I would only have three to four more episodes, all of which have major shit happening, so few people really have the time to care about her.
Then the S3 finale happens. Hawkmoth tries to do his shit with Chloe and it fails, so he goes to Lila. He akumatises Lila into Hoaxer (my beloved) and lets her go wild to distract the heroes while he and Mayura attack the Guardian.
In S4, Lila starts getting wrecked by both Chloe and Alya. The rest of the class catches on over the season, with most of the Chloe salt episodes getting changed to Lila. On her part, Lila starts to realise that HM only saw her as a pawn and that she has gotten way in over her head. It culminates in Safari, where an akumatised Nathalie hunts her down after she and Gabriel find out how she acted towards Adrien.
In S5 a lot of shit goes down, and she decides to cut her losses and go into hiding. She runs away from home and takes the name Cerise (because even canon’s biggest nonsense can get a wink and a nod). Only getting involved when alya tracks her down to get information about Monarch.
Lila’s entire thing is trying to be more important than she actually is. She has her interesting moments in S3, but after that, she’s just a repeat akuma that people find more annoying than dangerous or interesting. In the end she willingly goes into the background.
She goes out, not with a bang, but with a whimper.
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Honestly in theory I like the ‘go out with not a bang but a whimper’ thing, but canon dropped the ball HARD on that and this is a lot better.
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erisluna35 · 24 days
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What is the biggest hypocritical moment you've seen from Adrien salters?
Okay I've got a LONG list. However, let's remove the ones that depend on whether they stan, salt or ship certain other characters and I'm gonna have to go with those that criticize Adrien for being such an unrealistic white sheep abuse victim. Admittedly, this is getting increasingly less common these days (or maybe its cause I've blocked out the worst of them, who knows) but this is what I've personally seen around the S4 era.
They be like, Adrien doesn't doesn't react according to his trauma. Too pure and sterile, promoting good victim mentality or whatever I forgot their exact wording. Point is, they think he behaves unrealistically well adjusted and seemingly unaffected by his abusive upbringing.
Yet look at what those salters would drag Adrien down for:
He's frustratingly passive. Too needy and emotionally volatile as Chat Noir. They'd get mad at him for committing G-Rated self harm for stressing out Ladybug just cause he wanted attention(to that I say major wtf). Impulsive at the worst times. Overly sensitive. Letting his feelings get in the way of professionalism (double points if this is from a Saltinette stan). Wanting Gabriel to move on and be happy with Nathalie, as if Emilie didn't matter to him...
I can see how most if not all of these are a result of his upbringing.
He's passive cause that's how Gabriel wants him to be. He's needy cause he's been neglected and emotionally volatile cause Gabriel would tell him to bottle it up cause he's being too emotional. He does reckless things, risking his safety, cause he likes that Ladybug worries about him cause he doesn't get enough of that at home. He's overly sensitive and lets it cloud his judgement - well, who wouldn't be after living under the same roof as Gabriel? Wanting his only living parent left to be happy doesn't mean Emilie meant nothing to him. Maybe its also because he is used to prioritizing Gabriel's feelings over his own. Maybe a happy dad means a happy life.
What do they even want from Adrien? Keep his shit together, he's called unrealistic. Lose it, and he's unbearable to them. Adrien can't win with those victim blamers.
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sweetcloverheart · 8 months
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I can fully respect people not being 100% about the movie’s portrayal of Adrien (Haven’t gotten a chance to watch it but from the spoilers I’ve seen, the biggest major difference is that he’s just a bit more reserved than show!Adrien and sasses her a lot as Chat in the beginning) but the amount of vitriol I see get aimed at him in movie salt posts is jaw-dropping. Not even show!Adrien salters get that upset when talking about him
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trashyangelic · 6 months
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09232023: prompt request
sᴀʟᴛs - Bustier Salt, Damocles Salt, Lila Salt, Alya salt ʀᴇᴅᴇᴍᴘᴛɪᴏɴs - Sabrina Sugar, Akuma Class Sugar, Adrien Sugar, Nathaniel Sugar, and Chloe Redemption ᴏᴛʜᴇʀs - Marinette Deserves Better, Bad Teacher Caline Bustier, Major Character Death (Lila Rossi) , No Lila Rossi Redemption
Nino was thinking of watching horror movies with Adrien along with the class but Mylene suggested, "The Grudge" a Japanese movie but they don't know if its a true story.
WHAT IF?! its a true story maybe letting the Akuma Class to go to Japan to see if the mother and the son were real they can film it with Alya with them. While most people in Japan doesn't want to talk about that curse house but pity the people who attend to go there when being warned.
Except a couple students in the Akuma Class like Marinette, Chloe, Sabrina, Nino, Mylene, Ivan, Adrien, Juleka, Alix, Max, Kim, and Rose doesn't want to go which only leaves Lila, Alya, and Miss Bustier since they don't believe in ghost and thinks its just a normal house which is fine for Miss Bustier since most of her students doesn't want to go since they have seen it happen in the movie theres is no way they are going. Since Kagami warned Adrien not to go that curse house its particularly haunted with a vengeful spirit.
While Chloe suggested a trip to Disney World in Florida as everyone agreed to go minus Miss Bustier who is incompetent, Lila, and Alya. As Marinette went to ask an approval to the School Board which they are fine it but not happy with their teacher Caline for being incompetent of going to that curse house that the students mentioned it became a legend as well but also haunted.
Which leaves only Lila, Alya, and Caline to go to the curse house in Japan as to what Nino stated The Grudge Movie that he told Alya to watch with a friend since he is watching it with his best friend Adrien.
But at the end the news were announced that one young girl as in Lila Rossi died in the cursed house leaving two people as in Caline Bustier who was being strangled by the mother spirit and now believing that ghost are real and Alya Cesaire who had a scar across her neck an scared out of her witts telling herself she isn't coming there anymore she learned her lesson to listen to their warnings. As many people had tried to warn them not to but they don't seem to listen.
Leaving the Mrs. Rossi still angry at Caline Bustier for not saving her daughter but Alya return a favor to Mrs. Rossi and told her the truth of what Lila told her back in school before they got here. Mrs. Rossi was disappointed of her daughter lies but warned Alya Cesaire to watch out for lawsuit on her blog cause that would give a hard time for her parents. But was disgusted of Bustier and Damocles at the moment as Marinette told Mrs. Rossi the truth of what her daughter has done to her in the past which she was horrified. So she made her goal to tell the School Board about Damocles and Bustier to the young girl Marinette Dupain-Cheng being a doormat and to forgive her daughter for bullying her but also expelling her without proof.
While Lila is stuck in the curse house forever while being haunted by two vengeful spirits.
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I've seen some salt around interviews with the writers post season 5, mostly about Adrien not being present in the final battle and how that was planned from early on. I on the other hand, am happy about Marinette facing Gabriel alone as Bug Noire.
First, the writers say that Gabriel's wish has a trick to it, we don't know exactly what he wished for, and the aftermath of the world being destroyed and recreated is a major story point later on. So my first point is that it's NOT over. Adrien has not yet been robbed of a satisfying conclusion to his character arc. This arc is over, the show is not.
Second, Marinette is the protagonist. The teenage girl is the protagonist of this rom-com superhero show. Adrien is a main character, but he is not THE main character. He is a compelling character in his own right and is incredibly important to the story, and it's ok that he is the supporting character to Marinette. The whole point is that the girl is the hero of the story. She gets to be the knight in shining armor. She gets to have the badass moments and the op skills. I'm not saying the ML writing is without its flaws, or is even that good overall, but I am saying that as the main character of the show, Marinette having a climatic battle with the main villain is a good thing. So many animated shows get cancelled early or never made at all because their audiences are or would be mostly female, and some marketing analyst decided that women and girls don't buy enough merch.
On the other hand, I get the argument that yeah, girl power is great and all, but wouldn't equality be better than "Hey look, the girl is the hero this time." Well, yeah, it would be. However, the story told thus far is where the girl is main character and she's the leader and she's always one step ahead and she makes the complicated plans and she also plays a central role in said plans. And she's a teenage girl so she's messy and emotional and impulsive and stupid (affectionate). Maybe the story will change with time. After all, Marinette won in a way, but she also failed. She allowed Gabriel to make his wish, the ONE thing she was supposed to avoid at all costs. The effects of the wish are not gone. Maybe it can never be fully resolved until Ladybug and Chat Noir work together as partners, and that's the whole point. Or maybe not, and Marinette gets to be the focus of her own show, and that's ok too.
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miraculermarinette · 1 year
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Egyptian chat noir anon again! Honestly i think Egy!chat noir would hate present chat noir like can't you jerk off after the fight?
YEAHH !!
Honestly now, egyptian chat noir is not even a canon character but I still like him more than the canon chat noir lol.
I believe that It is only because of the limitless cheese that Plagg thinks Adrien is the best Chat noir.
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nobodyfamousposts · 10 months
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Do you think that a lot of the bad moments that people salt Marinette for are more due the "Marinette must commit a mistake and learn a lesson" Episode Writing Rule than things that she would actually do?
Partly. To be fair, part of it does seem to be based around the cringe moments that the writers threw in because they thought that somehow a teenage girl being embarrassed is what amounts to "humor". These humiliating moments that nobody BUT Marinette seems to experience and have played for laughs. Certainly not to the extent she does.
Not helped is that not only does no one else have to suffer such moments, but when others actively inflict this embarrassment onto her, they're never called out or really even acknowledged for their part. And when any of them experience similar treatment, it's narratively portrayed as sad and something to sympathize with them for.
Chloe pulled a lot of horrible stunts, and the fact that she's not even given so much as a slap on the wrist only further pushes this horrible narrative that it's supposed to funny and no big deal when Chloe does bad things and when Marinette suffers. And especially when Adrien or really anyone else does just as bad if not worse only to have any lesson be actively avoided.
So I think a major aspect of the salt towards Marinette is the narrative around her and how her suffering is portrayed as a joke and as if it's somehow deserved or warranted.
The very first episode had it end on a humor note of her losing out on a modeling chance with Adrien and the ending acting like she deserved it somehow. Let's bear in mind it was Alya pushing her to join and Marinette herself hadn't done anything to really deserve losing out the way the episode did compared with if she'd been actively ignoring Manon or acting like a jerk. As a result, I don't know what the lesson was supposed to be there other than that Marinette can't have nice things.
Reflektdoll was a major episode that showed this issue. ALYA was the one who pushed Juleka out to force Adrien and Marinette together. Even though Marinette told her she didn't want Adrien there in the first place. And yet even though ALYA was the one who caused the situation and MARINETTE was the one who at least TRIED to help Juleka and hear her out, Marinette ended up the one getting the full blame for Juleka being upset and the ONLY ONE who apologized by the end for apparently not doing enough to help Juleka despite her actively having attempted to and being cut off by Alya each time. She also ended up the ONLY ONE who WASN'T in the picture with Adrien. ALYA was in the picture, despite being the one directly responsible and the one who wanted Adrien and Marinette to have pictures taken of them together. All of this together gives the impression the narrative is punishing Marinette and that Marinette is somehow supposed to be the one in the wrong in the situation. Meanwhile, Alya and her actions and her part in the whole mess are simply forgotten.
There are at least four separate instances I can think of off the top of my head of Adrien throwing tantrums in the middle of akuma fights and even going so far as threatening to quit, refusing to work with Ladybug to stop the akuma, and even actually quitting. And each time, either HE was portrayed as the wholly innocent party and/or SHE was portrayed as being in the wrong and needing to apologize to him for...(checks notes) not giving him what he wants: whether that be a date, her identity, Fu's secrets, or not being dependent on him.
Then there's Chloe and Lila. Do I really need to get into them at this point?
And remember the comic and how Marinette ended up naked in New York thanks to a stunt Chloe pulled and instead of ANY punishment for Chloe for theft and leaving Marinette without any clothes, it's used to teach Marinette a lesson about racism? No, I will NOT let that go. Even if they did an "official New York episode" to try and replace it, it showed the depths that the writers would put Marinette through and how they would go out of their way to make it be more of a point to make HER wrong somehow even if they had to make it up and disregard the implications and the person responsible.
It all comes down to this common tendency Miraculous has to make light of the things Marinette goes through and having the treatment of her be their go-to joke.
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theerurishipper · 7 months
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It’s so hard being an Adrien stan in this fandom. People are constantly nitpicking every little thing he does. He can never do right by them. It’s so frustrating. And that’s not even mentioning how he was treated in canon
I feel you anon. I wasn't actively posting for the fandom during the major salt periods, like right after the airing of Syren and then Chameleon, but I was around to see the ridiculous salt fests that would go on. People love to pick on Adrien for every single little thing that involves him making a decision that doesn't cater perfectly to Marinette's whims and needs, but woe be upon you if you say anything about Marinette that isn't praising her. It's not even like I have a problem with Marinette as a character. Some of her writing in Season 4 and 5? Yes. But in Seasons 1-3, I really loved her. She was such a breath of fresh air for me as a character. She was so full of charm and life and energy. But she got ruined for me by her stans who jumped to salt on every other character for not exactly agreeing with her every decision and for having minds of their own and having desires that weren't about her.
And another annoying part is their insistence that Marinette is treated oh so cruelly by the narrative and poor Marinette is always suffering and everyone is treating her so cruelly and she deserves better than people who aren't willing to be her faithful slaves. Then Seasons 4 and 5 brought this into canon, and then you saw people who were salting on Adrien for being upset about being neglected by his partner, and they were blaming him for "feeling entitled to her" despite never calling her out for her treatment of him. Lemme tell you, the chimney discourse was wild. And all that bullshit ass "discourse" about him harassing Ladybug, while ignoring all the stalking Marinette did and pretending it was nothing. I generally ignore anyone who says either of these things because they are clearly meant to be jokes, and I think calling Adrien a harasser is just as ludicrous as calling Marinette a stalker, but the double standard of taking the joke seriously for Adrien but not for Marinette is annoying, to say the least.
And ultimately they just want Adrien and everyone else to be Marinette's sidekicks/yes-men who will never disagree with her and will always do whatever she wants and will never think for themselves. And you unfortunately can see this attitude seeping into canon too, with how Adrien isn't allowed to have independent thoughts outside of how he can be of service to Marinette. Nothing matters for him, the only thing that matters is her and what he can do for her. She's allowed to yell at him and throw him into trashcans, but fuck him if he disagrees with her on something and isn't happy to just sit by and accept being replaced and ignored. And canon Adrienette is such a good example of this phenomenon.
But the salters will whine and rage about how Marinette is such a victim of the narrative and how she suffers so much that we should all excuse her less than perfect actions, while also raging at Adrien for any small slight and denying that he also suffers. I guess Marinette can be excused for being traumatized and stressed, but being a victim of horrific abuse is too less of a reason for Adrien to be excused, and I guess it means he isn't suffering. To them, only Marinette's feelings and suffering matters. And this has also become true for the show, because Adrien's feelings don't matter, only Marinette's feelings about him matter.
And the worst fucking thing I've seen from this fandom is the occasional post about how Adrien is "spineless" and "cowardly" and "doesn't have a backbone" because he is non-confrontational and doesn't get up in arms about everything. And, aside from the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with not flying into a righteous rage about everything, this is some fucking heavy victim blaming bullshit. Like, y'all know that Adrien is like that because he's a victim of abuse, right? That his actions are a trauma response, right? It's called fawning. How awful of Adrien to have been conditioned into being non-confrontational by an abusive father who wants him to be subservient to his every whim! How useless is he for being traumatized because of the abuse he suffers! What a loser!
Honestly, the deranged Marinette stans are the worst. If someone says that shit about Adrien, they can go fuck themselves honestly. The gall to accuse a character who is an abuse victim of being "a spineless worm who can't grow a backbone" (someone legit wrote this word for word). Acting like he's the scum of the earth for not agreeing with Marinette 24/7 and victim blaming him for not rising swords drawn the moment someone does something mean to her.
So yeah, I understand you anon. It's really annoying to see all these "hot takes" going around. But there are still many Marinette fans who are nice and don't say all this goofy shit about Adrien, and there are plenty of Adrien stans who love and defend our boy. My advice is to block the salt tags, follow the right blogs and curate your experience the best you can. Trust me, it took a while for me to learn to stop putting myself through the agony of looking through these salt posts and to start blocking tags and salters' blogs. But I'm better off for it now. It won't stop some of these posts from popping up here and there, but it'll massively improve your fandom experience.
Thank you for your ask!
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sturchling · 2 years
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Hi, so glad that you are back ^^
Would it please be possible to do a continuation of Marinette collapsing from too much work and Damian Wayne helps her
Like after the first part where they leave the class and head to her house, Major Adrien Salt where he follows and tries to guilt trip her
Meanwhile, Damian has fitted Marinette with stealthy headphones to listen to music or silence while she relaxes
Plus, Damian is stealthily recording Adrien's guilt rant
When Adrien is done, Damian reveals that Marinette heard none of that and that he would post Adrien's guilt trip online for all to see
Hi! So glad to be feeling better and be back! Glad you liked the part one so much, hope you like this one too. For any who didn't read the first part, you can find it here -> Part 1
Damian and Marinette had begun walking out of the school, and were in the courtyard, when Damian heard it. The sound of rushing footsteps behind them. He glanced over his shoulder and saw that idiot of a model racing after them with a panicked and yet also angry look on his face.
After their discussion last night, Damian had given Marinette some custom headphones he had made for her. They were similar in shape to an airpod, but were completely noise cancelling, to help her relax. He had planned to give them to her for her birthday but after last night, they seemed appropriate. Now he was glad he gave them to her. He quietly asked her to slip them in her ears before Adrien got to them, and she did just that. On the off chance some of his voice got through the headphones, he played some relaxing music through them, just in case.
Right as the music started, Adrien called out. "Marinette wait right there, I have to talk to you." Now, Damian could have just walked Marinette out of the school, and stopped Adrien from following them himself. But he didn't want to make the situation worse at school for Marinette. At least until he convinced her to transfer, but that is a matter for a different day. But then Damian thought better of it, and realized he could get some revenge for his angel. So, he subtly pulled his phone out and started recording without Adrien noticing.
And Damian was so glad he did when he heard what that twerp wanted to say. "Marinette, that was really wrong of you. The whole class is counting on you to be class rep and handle things for them. It's a really simple thing, and you won't even do that for them? Are you really so bitter about Lila that you would ruin things for everyone? Now all the fundraisers and trips this year probably won't work out and it is because of you. How could you let everyone down like that? I thought you were a good person, but maybe not if this is how you are going to behave. By throwing temper tantrums, being lazy and saying it is too much work, and then bringing in a random stranger to lecture Mrs. Bustier, and the class. And he is suing Lila? You should have put a stop to that immediately! We agreed we would take the high road, but that was really low of you."
As Adrien stopped ranting, he waited for Marinette to respond. He expected she would do what she always does when confronted like this. He expected that she would cry, and say she was sorry. That she would tell this jerk next to her to take a hike, Wayne or not. And then the two would go back upstairs where she would apologize to the class and Mrs. Bustier, resume her duties as class rep, and things would go back to normal. But that didn't happen. Marinette didn't do anything. She just stood there, staring at him. Adrien felt his anger grow again at Marinette ignoring him, and went to start in on her again, but Damian stepped in at that point.
"I'm going to stop right there Agreste. First, she hasn't heard a word you said, thanks to the headphones I gave her. So none of that nonsense you said will be heard by her. Second, you will not speak to my angel at all after not helping her with liar, let alone in that tone. She isn't selfish or mean at all. Third, after saying all of those horrible things to her, I want to tell you now, I will make sure you regret ever meeting me. Finally, I think it only fair to warn you, I have been recording this entire conversation, including your attempt of a guilt trip. And I think the world would love to hear it."
Adrien started to panic and tried to convince Damian not to post the video. But he couldn't get his voice to work. He watched as Damian and Marinette turned and left the school, leaving him standing in the courtyard alone. Later that night, it happened. Damian posted the recording. It went viral in a few minutes, and was all over the internet. Adrien's fans turned on him quickly, having heard the horrible things he said. News stories ran the next day about the story, and not only about Adrien, but also about the Gabriel brand as a whole. The whole word turned against the Agreste family in the brink of an eye. Damian had been right. Adrien regrets the day he met Damian, cause now his life is ruined.
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imthepunchlord · 6 months
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So I know a majority felt some frustration in some way with how Adrien was handled the last 5 seasons between how he was utilized to salt over how he's handled and what he does.
So I am curious what a majority think should've been done with him, cause I do see him as a character that did have a lot of potential options in what could've been done with him. It's the biggest edge he has over Felix who has a clear cut path for where his character can go and grow, Adrien though has a lot of options in what could've been done with him.
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