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glitchy-anime-fan · 2 months

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This might be just me, maybe I’m missing something, but I feel like some people who criticise EPIC!Odysseus for killing an infant but drawing the line at sleeping with Circe might not be taking into consideration how literally every event Odysseus has face since Troy has affected him as a person and how much guilt he’s continually facing.

To preface; THIS IS NOT ME HATING ON OTHER FANS!! I’m not trying to bully anyone or make fun of anyone, this is just something that has been in my head and I need to rant about it. This also only pertains to EPIC’s depiction of Odysseus, not any other interpretation of the character/story!

[minor grammatical edits made on 2/25/2024)

I saw a discussion on here the other day where the parties involved were talking about the changes made between the original Homeric story and EPIC. One of the main points of contention that I remember was how one of them said it rubbed them the wrong way that Odysseus was fine with killing an infant but didn’t want to sleep with Circe. I can totally understand why this may be an odd choice of morality to make, however, we have to keep in mind that the Odysseus from the Troy Saga is VERY different than the Odysseus in the Circe saga. Troy Saga Odysseus appears to be far more confident in himself and his plans; one could even argue that he’s a bit cocky. As stated by Odysseus in the ocean saga, NONE of his own men died in the battle which would add to Odysseus’ confidence and pride. This is vastly different than the grief stricken Odysseus later in the story, but more on that later.

Now the infant scene in question doesn’t necessarily set in stone Odysseus’ moral/ethical code; one could say the situation itself is an ethical dilemma (a problem with no one right answer). Odysseus is told by Zeus, king of the gods, that if he doesn’t kill Hector’s baby than Odysseus’ entire family (perhaps even kingdom) is in grave danger. However, Odysseus doesn’t make a decision right away, I’m mean the entire second song of the saga is Odysseus mulling over his options; kill an infant or risk his families safety. Neither option is preferable and I think “Just a Man” is meant to show that Odysseus isn’t a man who would readily kill a child, no questions asked, just because he was told to. In “The Infant and the Horse” Odysseus is ready to comply until he discovers that the “foe” he’s meant to kill is an infant. I mean, he literally pleads with Zeus to give him another option;

[ODYSSEUS, ZEUS]

I could raise him as my own (He will burn your house and throne)

Or send him far away from home (He'll find you wherever you go)

Make sure his past is never known (The gods will make it known)

I'd rather bleed for ya, down on my knees for ya (He's bringing you down on your knees for ya)

I'm begging please

Oh, this is the will of the gods

Please don't make me do this, don't make me do this

This part alone shows that Odysseus is, in fact, NOT fine with killing a child. Again, the second song in the saga is Odysseus going over his options and even asks for forgiveness when he finally makes his decision. I don’t know about you all, but I don’t think someone who’s okay with killing a child would ask for forgiveness. In this situation it’s very likely that Odysseus made the choice to protect his family and kingdom above all else, which I feel like is a valid choice in this situation. Odysseus was told, by a god, that him and his family would be killed should the baby live, I highly doubt Odysseus at this point was readily willing to try and call Zeus’ bluff.

It’s also not like the action didn’t affect Odysseus later. Again, I’m sure someone who wouldn’t have a guilty conscience about such a heinous act would ask for forgiveness. Similarly, two songs later in “Open Arms”, Polites brings up Odysseus’ guilt at the end when he says “I see in your face, there is so much guilt inside your heart”. Odysseus is clearly guilty about what he’s done, once again reinforcing that he is not “okay with killing an infant”. You can also pick up on it in the way Jay sings Odysseus’ songs following “Just a Man”; Odysseus seems to be more distracted or distant likely due to the shock of his own actions.

Similarly, we have to take into consideration literally every new traumatic incident Odysseus is faced with between the Cyclops and Ocean sagas. In the Cyclops Saga, Polyphemus kills a large number of Odysseus’ crew which would make this the first heavy loss Odysseus’ army would have faced since the war. I can imagine that this loss would have been a huge blow to Odysseus’ pride given the fact that none of his men died in the war. Similarly, since Odysseus is their captain and king, it’s fair to assume that Odysseus may see the deaths as his fault adding to his guilt.

Not only does he lose many in his crew, Odysseus also loses his best friend Polites which greatly effects Odysseus throughout the rest of the musical. In “Keep Your Friends Close” when the crew is scheming to open the bag of wind from Aeolus, they say “Everything's changed since Polites,” referring to how much Polites’ death not only effected Odysseus but also the crew. Odysseus becomes more and more closed off and distrusting which makes sense since it seems Polites was the one that mainly pushed Odysseus to be more open. This is another death that Odysseus can tack onto the growing list of reasons his guilt is eating him alive.

Side note: Odysseus also looses the support of Athena, his patron goddess following “My Goodby”. Athena has been someone who we can assume (given Athena’s story during “Warrior of the mind”) has been guiding Odysseus since he was a child so, even if Odysseus is no longer happy with Athena’s view on being a good warrior, it likely hurt him on some level to loose her. We have to keep in mind; Odysseus also thought of Athena as a friend not just a goddess and has thought this way since he met Athena. If we assume that Athena and Odysseus have never had a fight this bad until “My Goodby” then I think it’s fair to say that the outcome of the fight would negatively impact Odysseus. He may be too prideful to admit it at the time, but I can only imagine how awful it would feel to loose the support of a friend and patron deity at the same time.

I think one of the biggest blows yet for Odysseus comes during “Ruthlessness” when Poseidon and/or the Laestrygonians sink and kill everyone but Odysseus and his immediate crew mates (as in, the crew on Odysseus ship as apposed to those on the other twelve ships). As I mentioned earlier, throughout the ten years Odysseus and his army were in Troy not one of his men died. This changed when they faced Polyphemus, and only worsens when Poseidon attacks. Odysseus goes from having a crew of 600 (at the start of the musical) to 43 following this attack. Not only does he loose nearly all his men, it’s directly Odysseus’ fault it happened in the first place. Poseidon tells Odysseus directly that they “totally could have avoided all this had [Odysseus] just killed [Poseidon’s] son”.

Had Odysseus just listened to Athena at the time and killed Polyphemus, there would have been no one left to tell Poseidon about the attack; the god likely wouldn’t have known. Likewise, had Odysseus not let his hubris get the better of him and not told Polyphemus his full name, even if Poseidon found out his son had died or was left blind, he wouldn’t have known who did it. The whole situation is directly Odysseus’ fault and Poseidon is very clear in letting him know that. This obviously is going to add to Odysseus’ guilt exponentially since this time it truly was his own actions that lead to this scenario. Not to mention that had Odysseus just apologised, Poseidon might have been gracious to the crew.

Now there’s no saying what that would look like for Poseidon, maybe he would have only sunk one or two ships or maybe he was lying, who knows. The main point is that Odysseus was given another chance to get out of this peacefully, but he can’t swallow his pride long enough to say “I’m sorry”. Odysseus instead tries to talk his way out of it and Poseidon isn’t having it; this is another instance of Odysseus’ actions resulting casualties. All of this happens before the Circe saga mind you.

So let’s review all the instances that would be causing Odysseus guilt so far:

He’s been forced to kill a child to save his family and kingdom

He’s lost his best friend and a chunk of his crew to Polyphemus

He’s lost the support of his patron goddess who he has also seen as a friend since childhood

He’s lost 90% of his crew (give or take) due to his own actions

You cannot look at this and tell me that it would not greatly affect your mental health in any way. Odysseus is being weighed down by an immense about of grief and guilt as the story continues. It gets to be so much that in Puppeteer Odysseus tells Eurylochus that while he would like to leave Circe’s island, he can “hardly sleep now knowing everything [they’ve] done”, directly referring to the guilt that keeps weighing on his mind. By this point in the story Odysseus is so wracked with guilt that he would rather risk his own life to save the few men he has left that add anymore to his guilty conscience.

I see this as one reason why Odysseus rejects Circe’s advances. Odysseus went to save his men who were transformed because he already can’t sleep and doesn’t want to add any more guilt onto his mind. Do we really think he would change this stance just so he could sleep with a goddess? The thought of cheating on Penelope would likely cause Odysseus just as much guilt as leaving his men. This situation poses a similar dilemma to the very beginning of the story; Odysseus can either comply and free his men or not. In this moment Odysseus is in a lose-lose situation, however, he doesn’t let that stop him from trying to essentially create a third option that doesn’t add to his guilt.

And he’s successful this time.

Unlike he pleaded with Zeus, is seems that for one reason or another Odysseus is successful in pleading with Circe; he is able to create a third option for himself and his crew. He’s able to create a reality where his remaining crew survives and Odysseus doesn’t add anymore to his guilt.

Again, this is not about the original story, or other interpretations, this is solely based on what we know from EPIC. In short; Odysseus pleaded and begged with Zeus not to make him kill Astyanax, to give him a third peaceful option but failed. Odysseus is given a whole song about his own moral struggle in the options given to him and is then haunted by the guilt of his actions. He is then faced with the death of his crew due to his own actions, becoming not only a point of further guilt but also a shot at his pride. Odysseus looses Athena’s favour and looses Polities. While Odysseus may have begun to cave to Circe, I believe it was ultimately his love for his family and his desire to not add to his guilt that made him reject Circe.

Odysseus was never okay with killing an infant, he felt guilty likely from the moment he made his final decision. By the time he meets Circe, Odysseus would rather attempt to talk his way out (something that hasn’t actually worked till now) than add to his guilt. I’m truly not sure what I’m missing that, in the context of the musical, this isn’t obvious. Maybe it’s because I’m taking EPIC as its own story and not a one-to-one with the source material, who knows.

Sorry this got really long, I just needed to get it out somewhere before it plaques my mind anymore. Once again, I’m not trying to hate on anyone or bully anyone, this is just my own opinion on the matter!

#greek mythology #tagamemnon #epic the musical #epic the circe saga #epic the ocean saga #epic the cyclops saga #epic the troy saga #glitch rants #I feel like this was an intentional timeline for the musical #maybe it’s just me #idk

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