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bambi-kinos · 11 months

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excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 1)

This is Part One of an ongoing conversation in the McLennon server about John and Paul in Hamburg. Part Two is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718388247258136576/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server-hamburg-part-2

In Part One of the Hamburg Conversation, we discuss why John and Paul ended up being so close after their stint in Hamburg during 1960, since this was the period where the Exis ostracized Paul and John and Stuart were up each other’s asses a lot.

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Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:10 PM alright beatle babes big fucking thunks time

1960 kinda sucked for Paul, Hamburg was the big thing and John was busy hanging out with Stuart and the Exis and was super teenagery about it. Paul felt abandoned and was super teenagery about it. There were a lot of sex workers, beer, and amphetamine pills going around. Gangsters roamed about, mostly not giving a shit about the Beatles tbh. They re-discovered girls. Paul gets deported.

Then we hit 1961 and this is happening: https://twitter.com/BeatlesArchive2/status/1630289665323589632?s=20

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:19 PM Stuart stayed with Astrid and John seemed to be okay with this whereas he went to extreme lengths to separate Paul from his dad upon returning to Liverpool (which was a good thing), Paris happened, Stuart and Paul had a fistfight on stage where John de facto chose Paul by not disciplining him over the fight. What changed

Personally I think Hamburg changed how John viewed Paul. He got to see Paul in an adult context for the first time. I legit don't think John saw Paul as anything other than another friend -- that's not because of Rule 10, that's something I really believe. John simply didn't take Paul seriously until they got to Hamburg. They were friends and they had a tight bond thanks to Mary/Julia's passing, I don't doubt for a second that their friendship was already very close. John knew Paul was attractive but I don't think he fully put together what that meant until later. Hamburg slowly transmuted that into something else for John, he saw Paul in a brand new context and watched him flourish into a young adult away from the childhood context of Liverpool. And that lead him somewhere else.

Stuart didn't have prospects in Liverpool, his application to be a TA had already been rejected so he was ready to move on. John was able to respect that and let Stu go....because he figured out what he wanted. So he pursued Paul and very heavily too.

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:33 PM Paul said that they felt somehow they were headed for big things, but i wonder when that feeling coalesced for them? Maybe beyond all the teen psychodrama, the side effect of Hamburg was getting technically good for the first time, and that’s when that feeling happened, like a mutual sense growing of ‘this man can take me places’

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:34 PM ohhh i like this

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:38 PM You know, them getting to know all these other bands and maybe realising that Lennon/McCartney together was a different better creature

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:40 PM Especially since they were experimenting with the songwriting at that point. Not a whole lot but they were doing it, that was a way for them to distinguish themselves from the other bands. They were trying to find their niche and the Lennon/McCartney thing started clicking into place.

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:41 PM Also very much YES to your point about Paul becoming a hot adult man rather than cute boy baby

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM So you take the hypercharged atmosphere of Hamburg, put that with them starting to push themselves creatively and not just do cover songs....

louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM And Paul growing shoulders and forearm hair

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:47 PM Maybe they also set their flirting pattern in Hamburg -- John being an ass, Paul being cold in response to get John's attention, making each other jealous on purpose etc. Even if they didn't realize what they were doing in the moment.

I'm fascinated at how much of a slow motion thing it all was, this attraction between them. It wasn't sudden, it was a long burning thing. They spent that first trip getting with women, boozing, going pro, there's the psychodrama going on in the background and John's very intense no matter what.... And when it all finally ended John sought out Paul in Liverpool....

louiselux — 02/27/2023 5:09 PM It's clear that they excited each other in various ways ever since they first met, but it seems like it did take a while to click into place. With Stu, I really get the sense that John had met someone he thought of as his equal at that time, in adulthood and sensibilities, and that he didn't consider Paul an equal in that way. So maybe that is the thing we are tracking here, the realisation that Paul is like...The One? Over those Hamburg years

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 5:19 PM yeah! I think that's it exactly :ogeyes: Stuart was loved and lovable to John but Paul had a special impact

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 6:53 PM John had his blinders on to everything but success as a musician - he'd failed out of art school and couldn't hold down a regular job, so he made music his life

Before Hamburg Paul had prospects to continue in school and go to university, and he was still living at home and listening to his father (where John had stopped caring what Mimi said and may have moved out into the flat on Gambier Terrace by this point

In Hamburg, Paul starves and stinks and plays 6-8 hours a night, just like John, putting his all into the group and mach schau and living in squalor for the music

Where Stu was never that enthusiastic about the group, John had to convince him to buy an instrument and join, and when he met Astrid it was a done deal

So John can let go of someone who's already letting go of him because it's obvious what's happening and Stu is going to be happier an an artist, and they're good enough friends to accept this

But he looks at Paul, who's working just as hard as he is to make the Beatles a success, and something clicks for him

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 7:14 PM something clicks for him...

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:18 PM I, too, find this time fascinating. I agree that while he was drawn to him and attracted to him (maybe even subconsciously), John didn’t see Paul as an equal adult quote yet. Two years difference can feel quite big at that age. But then I also find it fascinating that John said they were both horrible to Stu in Hamburg. I wouldn’t put it past John to have played them against each other, especially after Stu got with Astrid

Misery — 02/27/2023 9:27 PM Trying to see which one of them would stick it out through his behaviour maybe

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM Always hiding his soft mushy center under a hard layer of nasty humor and bad behavior

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM John absolutely played them off each other. He was a jerk to both of them in Hamburg and would team up with the other one, peak frat bro honestly.

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM King John sits on his throne and says "which one of you loves me more?"

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM 😂 but also 😭

Misery — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM Mhm mhm mhm

This exactly

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:37 PM Tony Sheridan quote RE: J&P in Hamburg that’s relevant here

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:39 PM They were like two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle: they needed each other and fitted together.

pain

It was very menacing for me to hear the Liverpool accent when it was aggressive, especially when it was John. He was so caustic, and though he never scared me he could cut you down with a couple of words and a glance, and did. We got on OK because he had a bit of respect for me - I'd been on the telly - but we never got close. He was full of complexes, and to compensate for that he had a big ego. He was the intellectual and extrovert driving force, the natural leader. Paul was very talented, a frisky kind of guy, completely extrovert. His whole life was the show.

interesting that he characterizes both of them as extroverted

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:49 PM there's another quote in my head that I can't find, about how the interplay between John and Paul was the epicenter of the Beatles' mach shau-ing in Hamburg

Hamburg is where they truly tapped into their onstage chemistry. They might not have been songwriting during this time - too exhausted and overworked for that obv - but it's where they realized how their partnership could electrify an entire room, not just their music and their singing

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:52 PM Lesley-Ann Jones, The Search for John Lennon, on John's motivations for having Stu in the band - she's harsher on him than I would be but I can't say she's completely wrong

But John can't needle and bitch about Paul's musicianship to make himself feel better because Paul is just as good and maybe ever more talented than John, so he stops complaining where Paul is concerned and starts thinking about what they can accomplish together

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:54 PM It’s truly fascinating how evident that was to so many people I think the whole Stu situation was majorly messy…teenagers or young adults in over their heads..ego, sexuality, hormones and messy emotions running rampant all of the place …add to that drugs and alcohol. It must’ve been fascinating to watch from afar though

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:57 PM I don't agree with the latter part of this passage tbh, John didn't need any propping up in terms of having his ability recognized versus Paul's

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:58 PM Yeah, that part I disagree with from our outside perspective, but John was always insecure about his abilities as a musician

Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:59 PM Yeah I also disagree on that part

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 10:01 PM John respected that core of iron, the fact that he couldn't maneuver Paul endlessly fascinated him. I still don't know how to judge John's feelings about his own musicianship, I guess that's where the competitive aspect comes in, but it is fascinating that he decided to prioritize the health of the band over his personal feelings about Paul's abilities.

mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 10:02 PM John's nascent case of imposter syndrome couldn't stand up to the blazing pillar of self confidence that was eighteen year old stinky rat boy Paul McCartney

VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 10:06 PM but the part about Stu entrancing the chicks is dead on lol — of all the Beatles, was Stu the first to provoke an on-sight orgasm out of the audience?? We will never know

louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:12 AM He’s gonna ride that stinky rat boy all the way to the top!

louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:30 AM John seemed to be very incisive about people’s musical abilities in general, but seemed to get stuck when assessing his own.

alfenbalf — 02/28/2023 3:54 AM Tony Sheridan giving off big "I'm from Norfolk" energy here. Baby, John has the softest, gentlest Liverpool accent ever

I love Klaus

louiselux — 02/28/2023 4:14 AM Ha! That explains it - John's accent is the softest

Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/28/2023 8:22 PM John had the classic "mildly clever kid trapped in the american school system" problem where he was able to coast on his natural gifts for years and then struggled to respond to situations that challenged his abilities. And then he has the help/hindrance of being with Paul and Paul is able to challenge him, and get his skill levels up, but Paul was also a crutch for him in a lot of ways so John didn't learn how to deal with challenges on his own. Most people wouldn't in his situation.

People like John benefit immensely from mentorships preferably from a young age. Hence the proliferation of masterful artists during the Renaissance. In ideal circumstances John would have been apprenticed to someone as eclectic as he was who could educate him and grow his talents. His real talent lay in the fact that he was able to self teach everything he needed to know.

He really was a natural leader.

mynamesbetty — 02/28/2023 8:25 PM That rich old lady (or man) to support him while he focused on his art never materialized so he pulled his socks up and did it all himself

#mclennon #hamburg #hamburg days #beatles meta #my meta #the beatles #john lennon #paul mccartney #stuart sutcliffe #mclennon server

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