#ml lies

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

yo wackus do you have any thoughts on a hypothetical morally grey Kagami?

well... the first thing that occurs to me is that she probably wouldn't think she was morally grey at all. she'd probably be convinced she was in the right.

like look at all the times she's been akumatized!

riposte - she wanted a rematch with adrien, to beat him in combat, to be the BEST. because that's what her family values are, to be perfect and the BEST.

oni-chan - she was trying to protect adrien from lila, trying to get him out of her clutches and rescue him from her influence

lies - she wanted to expose all lies and liars because lying is a bad thing and what ruined her relationship

ryukomori - she wanted peace and serentiy and dissociation and honestly can you blame her

riposte prime - her goal was to get revenge on marinette for lying to her and betraying her and just being a "bad" friend! she wanted to bring marinette to justice

the thing about kagami is, she has such a strong moral compass, you can only convince her to do wrong by tricking her into believing it's right. she always tries to be perfect, or better than perfect, and the times when she has faltered/been akumatized have been when tomoe, gabriel, and lila manipulated her into doing so.

if she were to become a villain, i would see her as a javert (les miserables) or a miguel o'hara (spiderman: across the spiderverse) type villain. one who's convinced they're on the right side, the just side, and who are trying to uphold a certain moral code. i don't think she is a person who leaves room for gray areas in ethical dilemmas. i think kagami is a very black and white character, and if she believes she's on the right side, then the other side must of course be wrong.

#kagami tsurugi #ml #miraculous ladybug #ml riposte #ml oni-chan #ml lies #ml perfection #ml protection

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

THE PARALLELS 

#me and season 5 are best friends #for now #i do see an angst storm brewing so we shall see #adrien being lovesick over Marinette/Ladybug twice #is the funniest and most enjoyable thing for me #ml passion #ml lies #ml season 5 #ml season 4 #ml spoilers #adrien agreste #adrinette #i can tag this as ladrien cant i? #ehh why not #ladrien #mlb #miraculous ladybug #miraculous #ml

[bittersweetresilience]

Adrien Agreste and Borderline Personality Disorder

DISCLAIMER: I've been a bit low on spoons this week, so I haven't gathered as much evidence as I probably could have. Also, I am but a humble student in clinical psychology. This is mainly a thought compilation for @moonieratty!

To introduce the topic, without going into it too much, personality is described by features and behavioral patterns, or traits, consistent across situations and across time. Personality disorders are therefore enduring patterns of highly maladaptive traits evaluated in personal and sociocultural context (Dozois, 2019, p. 290).

Like other disorders, personality disorders have diagnostic criteria. The DSM is used primarily for diagnosis in the US and Canada while the ICD is used more widely in Europe and other places. I'm more familiar with the DSM, but I've included a brief section on the ICD to be comprehensive. It ended up a bit longer than anticipated, so let's go below the cut. Warning for discussions of abuse, self harm, and suicide, and a brief mention of substance use.

Overview of Borderline Personality Disorder

BPD is prevalent in a small percentage of the population, about 1-2% by varying estimates, and is characterized by instability across domains of emotions, identity, interpersonal relationships, and behavior. Its onset is usually in late adolescence or early adulthood and symptoms may diminish with age, after one's thirties or forties, especially with therapeutic intervention. Along with ASPD, it has been the focus of a lot of clinical research; it is unfortunately associated with high rates of non-suicidal self-injury and suicide (APA, 2022, pp. 754–755; Dozois, 2019, pp. 308–309).

Etiological factors for BPD include both biological and environmental disturbances. Of note to our discussion is the heightened risk for BPD in cases of child abuse or neglect, as well as growing up with another family member with a serious mental health condition (NHS, 2022). It's been well established that Gabriel is emotionally neglectful if not outright abusive toward Adrien in multiple ways, so this is a clear risk factor. In addition, although I won't argue definitively for Gabriel having a psychological condition, he did keep Emilie's body in the basement, so there is clearly some kind of disturbance going on.

From a cognitive-behavioral perspective, Linehan argues that BPD stems from families who consistently invalidate childhood emotional experiences and "oversimplify the ease with which life's problems can be solved," which may cause children to learn to seek attention and communicate with others through emotional outbursts (Dozois, 2019, p. 297). This rings true for Adrien and Gabriel as well.

I have to apologize for my son, Ladybug, he's like his mother. Way too overly dramatic. (Jackady)

It doesn't seem like this is the first time Gabriel has thought this, and labeling an emotional reaction as being overly dramatic is very much invalidation of it. As for emotional outbursts, Adrien has had quite a few, mostly as Chat Noir. More on this later.

To round out this first section, attachment theory proposes a connection between poor parent-child attachments and BPD relationship difficulties. Specifically, maladaptive behavior in relationships may stem from childhood development of an anxious-ambivalent attachment style, where intense fears of abandonment interfere with a strong desire for intimacy (Dozois, 2019, p. 310). You can clearly see this in Chat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, and I'm sure other people have discussed Adrien's attachment style more in depth, but suffice to say I think this is an apt description.

Argument from DSM-5-TR

In the DSM, personality disorders are primarily diagnosed on a categorical model. There are a few general criteria which I won't be going into, but I will highlight that personality disorders are stable and pervasive, and would be diagnosed only if they were leading to significant distress or dysfunction. Adrien's mental state is not great, so the latter shouldn't be a problem, but this show does not always pay attention to consistency, so I'm going to be speculating some. Everything in this section is cited to the relevant DSM entry unless otherwise stated.

The DSM characterizes BPD with instability in relationships, self image, and affects, as well as marked impulsivity. It has no exclusion criteria, so BPD can be and frequently is comorbid with other disorders like mood disorders, PTSD, and ADHD. Of the below criteria, five need to be met in order for a diagnosis to be made.

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

Hey, where're you going? . . . So you're allowed to know her true identity, but I'm not? (Syren)

You're not really replacing me with a turtle, are you? (Anansi)

A lot of people have delved into Adrien's abandonment issues, which feature most prominently in his relationship with Ladybug. His fears of being replaced result in him seeking reassurance from Ladybug, and he can lash out if he does not receive the response he hopes for. Ladybug is his world, and he wants to be hers, so anything infringing on that feels to him like a threat of being abandoned, and he does not like it very much.

Impulsive behaviors like giving up his ring can be interpreted under this lens: he can avoid abandonment by doing the abandoning first. Then it will be him leaving, and not the other way around.

I also interpret Adrien's nightmare (Le Marchand de Sable) as being a fear of being alone as much as it is a fear of being trapped.

Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

We'll be united, more powerful and free. We'll defeat Hawk Moth, then we can both run away to an island! Far away from everything. We will live off nothing but fruits, and we will have a little pet hamster and we will name it— (Le Patineur)

I just can't do this anymore. I give up… on everything. Even you . . . If I become Chat Noir again, Ladybug will just end up rejecting me, over and over. (Kuro Neko)

Even though Adrien mostly keeps his head on straight regarding what he's owed and not owed by other people, his relationship with Ladybug is full of highs and lows. He thinks Ladybug is the most amazing girl, but this can recoil quickly into feeling as though Ladybug doesn't care about him enough or isn't meeting his needs.

Furthermore, he developed this idealization of Ladybug as a potential lover or caregiver at one of their first meetings (Cœur de Pierre), and continually sought to spend time together and share the intimate details of their secret identities early on. These are all common to individuals with BPD, as is the switch from idealization to feeling as if the other person "does not care enough, does not give enough, or is not 'there' enough." Ladybug is the only person Adrien consistently projects this instability and intensity on, which might be something interesting to explore.

Identity disturbance: unstable self image or sense of self

When I was a kid, I always wanted to be what my parents wanted me to be! (Exauceur)

But, does that mean Chat Noir is who I really am? Deep down inside? (Kuro Neko)

With all the secret identities, it isn't surprising that Adrien fits this criterion, but canon even explicitly draws a link between Adrien's unstable sense of self and his childhood experiences. He doesn't know who he is, and he distracts from this by being Chat Noir, only to struggle even more when he feels useless and underlooked as his hero self. His behavior shifts dramatically between trying to prove himself with grand gestures and refusing to participate or lashing out. There is definitely something to discuss on this front.

Impulsivity in at least two potentially self-damaging areas

Giving you some extra time . . . I trust you to bring me back, m'lady. (Gamer 2.0)

There are only two liars left in Paris and one of them knows the ultimate way to catch her attention . . . Crazy about you, m'lady. (Mensonge)

This is walking a thin line between impulsivity and suicidal behavior, which would be excluded from this criterion, but I'll list self sacrifice here because I can see an argument for Chat Noir's impulsive behaviors being out of love or the desire to be useful. There may still be some self injurious intent or euphoria, but Chat Noir does have faith in Ladybug to bring him back eventually. Nevertheless, this is impulsive and unhealthy. Chat Noir jumps too quickly to this option to have thought it through.

I can't think of another area, because Adrien isn't old enough for reckless driving, spending, substance use, or sex. This is also a kids' show. Just presenting these options for fanfiction writers out there.

Recurrent suicidal or self mutilating behavior, gestures, or threats

I... I don't know what to do! (Chat Blanc)

This is all our fault . . . Cataclysm. (Culpabysse)

By itself, what happened in Chat Blanc would not be solid evidence, as that was an unprecedentedly traumatic situation. Combined with Culpabysse, though, there is a strong case to be made for at least passive suicidality for this to be able to come up as an option.

You could also interpret the self sacrifice in this category. Suicidal behavior in individuals with BPD is often preempted by fears of rejection or abandonment, so an interesting analysis could be made on this front.

Affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood

He's still only thinking of himself! I just want this terrible day to be over and done with! I hate Christmas! (Pire Noël)

Sorry! Sorry! I didn't mean to make you so mad. I get it. You're sick of me . . . No one can help me, Kagami. (Glaciator 2)

Adrien's prolonged episodes of anger and despair reflect a high reactivity to emotional stressors, especially interpersonal ones. In general, he just doesn't feel very well unless something is actively bringing him joy. Most of his outbursts are brief, though, and I will discuss them as part of a later criterion.

Chronic feelings of emptiness

I'm not Adrien, so I wouldn't know if this is the case, but I can say he has experienced at least one depressive episode (Kuro Neko) and emptiness would not be unfamiliar. You can look at him and decide.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger

How was your amazing evening with your "friends"? . . . What do you think? (Glaciator)

Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care! (Syren)

A two-person plan?! There's only one two-person plan, and that's Ladybug and me! (Sentibulleur)

Give me a break, Miss "I can't even come up with a superhero name"! (Hack-San)

Anger in individuals with BPD can manifest as bitterness, sarcasm, or recurrent verbal outbursts, which Chat Noir absolutely exemplifies. These outbursts are often followed by feelings of shame or guilt and contribute to a feeling of being bad. Chat Noir apologizes after being harsh in Glaciator, and I wouldn't be surprised if he felt badly about the other times. Again, these outbursts are often precipitated by interpersonal fears and perceived threats of abandonment. Unlike other symptoms, this specific one tends to be unique to BPD.

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociation

I cannot recall any evidence for this but headcanon away, my friends.

All in all, I think Adrien has a strong case for BPD presentation according to the DSM. Canon is not always consistent, but I think it presents an interesting and mostly coherent narrative for this lens. From this perspective, Adrien's behavior reflects a deep intolerance of being alone and a dependence on other people to define the self.

As a corollary, BPD behavioral patterns are frequently linked to self sabotage and self undermining right when a goal is about to be realized, which could manifest as dropping out of school right before graduating or ending a relationship when it seems to be going well. Food for thought. Individuals with BPD may also feel more secure with transitional objects like pets than with interpersonal relationships, which could reflect in Adrien's relationship with Plagg.

To add some subjective understanding to this clinical mumbo jumbo, I've added a source of genuine BPD experiences below (Mind, 2022).

Argument from ICD-11

With the release of the ICD-11, a dimensional model for diagnosis of personality disorders became the new standard. What this means is that individuals are no longer labeled as having 'histrionic' or 'dependent' or, indeed, 'borderline' personality disorders, but are rather assessed as having any form of personality disorder on a sliding scale of severity and with trait domain specifiers (Swales, 2022). To put it more simply, people are diagnosed only with a general personality disorder or personality difficulty which can be optionally specified as deviating on one of the personality traits in the Big Five model, which is well established in personality psychology.

This move has several benefits. Stigmatization related to particular personality disorders can be reduced, and differential diagnosis and comorbidity between personality disorders becomes irrelevant. However, people retain access to treatment and support. Evidence-based treatments like dialectical behavior therapy are particularly well established and crucial for BPD; for this pragmatic purpose, the ICD contains one additional specifier for borderline pattern personality disorder (Bach et al., 2022; Swales, 2022).

The DSM and ICD are designed to be compatible with each other in many ways, and in this case, the borderline specifier in the ICD is directly lifted from the criterion of the DSM (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5). Based on our previous discussion, Adrien would be equally qualified for a diagnosis in France. I would likely describe his personality disorder with moderate severity, where multiple areas of functioning are affected and self harming behaviors may be present, but not all areas or relationships may be equally impacted and traits are not as rigid and inflexible (WHO, 2023, 6D10.0–6D10.2).

Interestingly, the ICD includes three additional manifestations of borderline pattern which are optional and may vary across time (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5).

A view of the self as inadequate, bad, guilty, disgusting, and contemptible

An experience of the self as profoundly different and isolated from other people; a painful sense of alienation and pervasive loneliness

Proneness to rejection hypersensitivity; problems in establishing and maintaining appropriate levels of trust in relationships; frequent misinterpretation of social signals

I'm fascinated by the number of adjectives in here. I simplified very slightly, as I did with the DSM criteria, but I had to keep all these adjectives. Anyway, I won't elaborate for too many more paragraphs, so let's say sentimonster moment and leave it at that. I will spare you my mirrored Félix essay. For now.

Qualifications and Limitations

First of all, Adrien is a teenager. The distinguishing factor between a personality disorder and regular adolescent difficulties would be longevity and identity concerns beyond his developmental phase (APA, 2022, p. 758). Second of all, Adrien has a uniquely terrible home life and magical problems. Some of his behaviors could be normal considering his experiences and sociocultural context, and this matters when it comes to psychological evaluation. Take everything with a grain of salt!

More generally, the categorical model of the DSM has several issues, not to mention diagnostic issues related to culture, gender, and stigma. Some but not all of these issues are addressed by the dimensional model it includes in a later section, which shares theoretical foundations with the model of personality disorders in the ICD. Even so, issues remain. Diagnosis, access to treatment, and political statements are intrinsically linked in complex ways. I won't get into all of the nuances, but be safe, remember this is a fictional character, and keep an open mind.

REFERENCES:

American Psychiatric Association. (2022). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed., text rev.). https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787

Bach, B., Kramer, U., Doering, S., di Giacomo, E., Hutsebaut, J., Kaera, A., De Panfilis, C., Schmahl, C., Swales, M., Taubner, S., & Renneberg, B. (2022). The ICD-11 classification of personality disorders: A European perspective on challenges and opportunities. Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation, 9(1). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40479-022-00182-0

Dozois, D. J. A. (2019). Abnormal psychology: Perspectives (6th ed.). Pearson.

Mind. (2022, September). What does BPD feel like? https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/experiences-of-bpd/

National Health Service. (2022, November 4). Causes - Borderline personality disorder. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/causes/

Swales, M. A. (2022). Personality disorder diagnoses in ICD-11: Transforming conceptualisations and practice. Clinical Psychology in Europe, 4(Special Issue). https://doi.org/10.32872/cpe.9635

World Health Organization. (2023). International statistical classification of diseases and related health problems (11th ed.). https://icd.who.int/

#miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #ml meta #don't worry i read through far more sources than listed here #it's just standard citation procedure to include only in-text references and not readings for general subject comprehension #🌃 #🌖 #i'm using a hybrid parenthetical citation model which i think is most efficient and informative so just note this down #i can't believe i referenced kuro neko three times... what an episode #ml simon says #ml syren #ml anansi #ml sandboy #ml frozer #ml kuro neko #ml stoneheart #ml wishmaker #ml gamer 2.0 #ml lies #ml chat blanc #ml guiltrip #ml santa claws #ml glaciator 2 #ml glaciator #ml sentibubbler #ml hack san

[iwasbored777]

Lord forgive me for making this sksksjjsjs

#I'm so sorry #Kagami died and we're laughing #We're laughing #Sjskskksksks #miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #kagami tsurugi #Ml lies #Ml meme

[adrinoir]

Headcanon: Adrien Agreste is Trans? (Part 4)

I absolutely love writing about this headcanon. Feel free to read my other sections of the trans headcanon: part one, part two, and part three.

Usual disclaimer: this is just for fun! Obviously cis boys can have these same qualities and traits. Don’t take it too seriously. These are all just things I’ve noticed. Also please keep in mind I haven't watched anything beyond Kwami's Choice: part 1 when I'm writing and posting this (so, I'm using what I currently know).

The incredibly strong dislike of modeling

This relates back to part one where I talked about Adrien’s discomfort in being a model. I had mentioned modeling is all about body - your face and body being everywhere, having to pose in front of a camera all the time, having to walk down the runway. There's a lot of visible discomfort we see in Adrien whenever he has to model.

Anyhow, what I want to add is that this discomfort never eased up for him despite the many, many years he had to model. He was extremely adamant about quitting. Obviously, modeling is a very stressful job as is, especially with the amount of gigs and events to attend and the insane fans who want to know where he's at, plus he said he just wants to be treated as a son by his dad. However, having gender dysphoria is something that can really be heightening this discomfort and desire to quit.

I feel like there are a lot of people out there who would desire to live this lavish lifestyle of being a model, but Adrien can't stand it. So therein lies the question: aside from the normal stress, what is heightening his strong dislike for this job? It could also be the fact that it's keeping him from getting to try out new things he'd enjoy doing, but also consider that his father controls his life as a whole, it isn't just his modeling position getting in the way. And, as I've previously said, there's a lot of visible discomfort, which could easily be what's making him dislike modeling even more.

Additionally, Adrien's face is now not only plastered on billboards, but on almost everyone's Alliance ring. Gabriel scanned Adrien's entire body and created this AI version of him to relieve him of his modeling duties. However, Adrien is still uneasy and doesn't like seeing his face and voice on just about everyone's device (if they have him as their option and not Lila). Yes, it's obviously weird for him to see a fake version of himself saying things he never recorded. But, 1) his face has been all over Paris for years (MASSIVE photos of him), and 2) this should not be incredibly shocking behavior for Gabriel Agreste. So, is there some dysphoric discomfort here, too? Possibly. I know it's a stretch, but it's definitely a small piece to take into consideration.

He often lets people perceive him how they want to

I had also mentioned in part two that he's a people pleaser and melds himself to be who other people want him to be. I want to add, he also lets people define who he is instead of trying real hard to correct them; he lets them think what they want of him.

A good example of this is in Lies when Kagami is trying to draw Adrien. He tries to pose as a cat to try and vaguely show his Cat Noir side; to be silly. But, Kagami doesn't believe this. He even promises her that this is who he really is, that being silly is part of who he truly is. However, Kagami pushes him against a wall, stares directly into his eyes, and says he’s perfect and, "There. This is really you." To which he answers, "Do you really think...?" and just lets Kagami kiss him. Yes, Kagami was being a bit forceful (like, oof. She shouldn't have done that). But, Adrien didn't try to tell her she's wrong. He let Kagami perceive him in her own way.

Why doesn't he correct her? It could be because he wouldn't want people knowing he's trans. It’s a very scary thing. You don’t know how the people who claim they love you will react. Letting them think what they want to doesn’t raise suspicion that he’s hiding something, and clearly his effort on trying to open up to her more didn’t even work in the first place.

You could say he acts like "being silly" is such a big, important part of him that he feel must be hidden at all costs, because it seems that he thinks that him being silly and telling puns would possibly give away that he's Cat Noir. BUT him posing that way for Kagami and him telling cat jokes in the middle of class (in Ephemeral) proves that notion wrong.

One could say he also doesn't want people to know he's dealing with a bad home life, but it's been common knowledge from the start that he has a controlling father. Nino has come up with plans on multiple occasions to free him from his father so they can hang out together. Kagami's mother and Gabriel are friends. It's how Adrien and her met, and Kagami makes it very well known that she's aware of how controlling Gabriel is.

In Elation - one of the most recent episodes - he mentions to Marinette that his fans "wouldn't be such big fans if they knew who was really behind the mask". So, even now, he still feels the need to hide his truer self and that he wouldn't be liked for who he truly is. But, let's think about this for a moment. He has fans both as Adrien and as Cat Noir. He has friends who know his situation and care about him. So then…what is being left out that he feels people won’t like about him? THAT brings us to the next point.

Why does he think people wouldn’t like him?

With all that being said (in the last section), there’s no exact, definable reason as to why Adrien says people wouldn’t like the real him. So, this could mean Adrien is hiding something we as the audience can’t even see.

It’s obvious Adrien has underlying insecurities. But, it seems there’s more than just those insecurities, and this could be him possibly being trans and internally struggling with that gender dysphoria.

People like what they see in Cat Noir - his silly puns and kind heart. People like what they see in Adrien - his kindness and friendliness. So, why will it be problematic once people know they’re the same person? There’s no solid reason.

I had mentioned in my other parts of this headcanon that he’s very closed off which can be pretty common amongst closeted trans people. Adrien thinking people won’t like who he truly is without any definable reason could contribute to that. He doesn’t want people to know he’s trans because he feels they’d think very differently of him and may not like him.

Think about how quickly he believed Marinette in Elation when she said she liked Adrien but doesn’t anymore. It shows that sign of insecurity and dislike for himself. When the girl he likes shows so many signs that she like him throughout the entire show but denies that, he doesn’t believe her. It’s really sad.

The closeness with his mom

So, we aren’t given much background on Emilie, but one thing we do see is that she’s closer to Adrien than Gabriel is. However, what makes them close? We’re never given a reason.

There’s that possibility she’s manipulative like Gabriel but in a different sense, one that makes Adrien like her despite being abusive. But, of course there’s the possibility that she isn’t, which makes her the better parent.

So, if it were true that she never abused Adrien, that leaves the question: what makes them close?

Hypothetically, if my headcanon was actually canon, she could be the one parent who supports Adrien being trans. That reason alone would make them closer, but could also be just one reason amongst many others.

The headcanon still works if I flip it

What if instead of Adrien being a trans guy who already transitioned, he’s a trans girl who hasn’t transitioned yet? I know that might sound like a massive stretch, but I’ve heard this headcanon from other fans and there’s some good back up for this, too.

We all know Gabriel is a very abusive father. We all know Adrien’s childhood dreams were nonexistent because was forced to be who his parents wanted him to be (or he’s forcing himself to please them). What if this is because they don’t support Adrien when he told him he felt like a girl? That’d mean he’s forced to continue living as a boy to please his parents, because his parents don’t accept the fact that he’s trans.

And modeling? That discomfort in having to show the body he has this disconnect from the body he was born in but still has to have pictures taken of all the time.

And him overcompensating his masculinity as Cat Noir? Trans people who are still questioning or don’t have a choice to transition can overcompensate to try being comfortable in the body they were born into. For example, a trans guy who can’t transition might try to be a very feminine girl (makeup, dressed, etc) or a trans girl who can’t transition might try to be a very masculine guy (get real muscular, grow out their facial hair, etc).

Just about every reason I’ve listed in all parts of this headcanon work just the same if Adrien was supposedly a closeted trans girl which makes this headcanon even more interesting imo.

Also, we do see him shirtless in Mr. Pigeon 72 which some people say debunks this whole headcanon that he’s a trans guy. BUT, this isn’t necessarily true. 1) Puberty blockers exist 2) it supports the flipped version.

This flipped headcanon would also be extremely sad if it is true that Adrien is a sentibeing. The ability to change Adrien to be the gender he connects with would be possible, but his parents chose not to recreate another version of him for their own sake. Or, they did possibly try but it’s what ended up wrecking the peacock miraculous, which might’ve made them feel some hostility towards Adrien.

There’s other characters in the show that are canonically queer

There’s absolutely no denying that there are queer characters in the show. Even though it’s not directly stated that Juleka and Rose are dating and that Nathaniel and Marc are dating, it’s made very clear that they are just based on their interactions.

I also heard Marc is based on one of the staff’s gender fluid friends, which is really cool! That’s direct queer representation that they clarified outside the show.

If you know anything about Disney, you’ll know there’s some homophobia and transphobia around the company. For instance, I also watch The Owl House where the main character Luz is openly bi and Amity is openly lesbian. They end up crushing on each other and dating. They directly state in the show that they’re girlfriends, show Luz coming out to her mom as bi, and have scenes of Luz and Amity kissing. There’s also Raine who’s an openly non-binary character - they directly refer to Raine with they/them pronouns. Their VA is also non-binary. And what does Disney do, despite how incredibly successful this show is? They wouldn’t let the creator renew it.

So, other Disney shows such as Miraculous and Star vs the Forces of Evil show queer characters without directly saying that they are. People might refer to that as queer baiting, but with Disney’s proof of being homophobic and transphobic, I can understand why these shows wouldn’t directly say what these characters’ sexualities and identities are.

Anyhow, considering how they massively hint at Rose and Juleka being girlfriends and Marc and Nathaniel being boyfriends, there’s that possibility that other characters in the show are queer, too. That’s why I and many other fans of the show can easily create these queer headcanons for many of the characters. There’s a lot of signs in the show.

#miraculous ladybug #tales of ladybug and cat noir #miraculous #miraculers #adrien agreste #chat noir #ml headcanons #trans #trans pride #ml season 5 #ml season five #ml season 5 spoilers #ml elation #ml multiplication #ml lies #ml season 4 #ml risk #marc anciel #marc x nathaniel #nathanael kurtzberg #juleka #juleka couffaine #juleka x rose

[chatnoirmemes]

#ml #miraculous ladybug #ml meme #ml memes #my memes #ml lies #ml season 4

[broadwaycutie16]

You know what’s the biggest proof that salt fic writers are hypocrites who refuse to acknowledge that Adrien is a good guy and the class aren’t Lila’s mindless drones? They pick and choose which episodes to include in the canon of their stories. Like, they make it so that Lies happened in their stories so Adrien and Kagami are broken up, but they pretend Truth never happened so they can keep their precious Lukanette ship in tact. So it’s okay to break up Adrigami and leave Adrien single, but Marinette can’t lose Luka, even though both couples broke up for the same reason? You know what that does, writer? That makes people be able to smell your bias from a mile away.

They refuse to acknowledge the episodes that show Adrien working to help Marinette, or Alya being a good, loyal friend to her, because it doesn’t support their belief that Adrien is a selfish coward who doesn’t give a s**t about Marinette, or that Alya is a toxic friend who leeches off of her kindness. Worse still, sometimes they pick and choose certain parts of the episode that support their theory. Like, they leave in the part from Ladybug where Lila models with Adrien, but leave out the part where he made a deal with her to clear Marinette’s name. It’s like after Chameleon, people decided to only acknowledge the BAD things Adrien and the class did, like they decided that only the BAD things they did mattered, and everything good they do from that point on doesn’t count. Like that one bad moment in Chameleon is what defines them.

The girl squad act concerned for Marinette in Gang of Secrets and try to help her get over her breakup? Doesn’t count, write a fic about them taking advantage of Marinette.

Alya does stellar work as Rena Furtive and even subs for Marinette while she’s gone, giving Marinette some much-needed support? Doesn’t count, write a fic about her neglecting Marinette for Lila.

Adrien makes a deal with the devil to clear Marinette���s name and secretly sacrifice himself to Lila to keep her from bullying Marinette? Doesn’t count because he didn’t save Marinette the way the author would have wanted him to, wrote a fic where he willingly allows Marinette to be tormented by Lila.

Because the characters did things THEIR own way with THEIR knowledge of events and THEIR morals, instead of handling things exactly the way the salters wanted them to, because they didn’t handle things in a way that would have completely served Marinette’s interest, because their actions inconvenienced her slightly for one or two episodes, salty fans write them off as poisonous influences in Marinette’s life, willfully ignoring every ten wonderful actions to Marinette to the one not-so-great action to her. They’re all “Marinette gets enough consequences”, and think that means that every single character should just bend over backwards to accommodate her to compensate for her bad luck, instead of having morals and opinions of their own. Which is why they like Luka, because his whole character revolves around pleasing her and serving her interests entirely.

The fact that the salt writers have to pick and choose which episodes that happened in the lore of their fanfictions, just to paint Adrien and the class as villains and sell the idea that “Marinette deserves better”, just goes to show that at this point, they’re grasping at straws.

#miraculous ladybug #marinette dupain cheng #ml fandom salt #adrien agreste #ml salt #miraculoustalesofladybugandcatnoir #miraculous salt #adrien deserves better #miraculous season 3 #fandom salt #adrien sugar #alya deserves better #miracuclass deserves better #ml chameleon #adrienette #ml class deserves better #gang of secrets #ml truth #ml lies #alya cesaire #marinette stans salt #salt on salters #lukanette stan salt #ml ladybug #ladybug episode #dear salt writers your double standards are showing

[lovesquareshippingtrash]

So after the scene in Lies with Kagami telling Adrien none of his poses are the "real" him, let's get a parallel in season 5 with Adrien going through various poses and Marinette being delighted because they're all different aspects of him just like Plagg told him and he feels seen which helps him to better see Marinette

#Miraculous #Ladybug #Cat Noir #Adrienette #Marinette #Adrien #ML Lies #love square #shipping trash

[plumsaffron]

Just doing an experiment (there's something similar that these have in common).

Regardless. I'm expecting what's similar in common to probably be ignored (or never found) so I'm unfortunately the ones with Lila or Felix in the episode to get the highest probably.

#Miraculous Ladybug #Miraculous Tales Of Ladybug and Cat Noir Intro #ML Oni Chan #The Puppeteer 2 #Miraculous Chameleon #Felix #ML Lies #Zombizou #plumsaffron

[tempests-bards-and-birds]

I did it.

I have no idea what you're talking about but I'm purr-fectly fine with it.

#this has been sitting around in my drafts for a while so i figured i may as well thow it out into the ether #ml #mlb #miraculous #miraculous ladybug #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #ml gifs #ml gif #mledit #ml edit #ladynoir #ladybug #chat noir #ml kuro neko #ml hack san #ml chat blanc #ml new york #ml lies

[potassiumprincess]

i think marinette is worse at resting when she's sick but adrien is worse at sitting things out if he's injured. i have no explanation, these are just the vibes

#ml #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #okay i lied i do have justifications #adrien probably just. would love being taken care of if he's sick #it's maybe something his mom used to do but not ENOUGH #and marinette would absolutely spoil him #but marinette is all I AM FINE IT IS JUST A COLD I AM FINE meanwhile she nearly falls off a rooftop in a dizzy spell #but adrien hate being kept away from ppl he loves. hates not being able to protect them. and an injury is more long-term and isolating #meanwhile...idk marinette feels to me like an injurt would leave her more defeated. she'd feel like she failed somehow #like she is SUPPOSED to be ladybug she is SUPPOSED to keep herself together to keep the city safe #so i think that would take a lot of her energy she'd be frustrated about it yes but also sort of...admit defeat #adrien would find ways to cheer her up though 🥺

[hamsternamedmarinette]

Sorry about the reflection on the screen but everybody please look at this animation glitch in Lies where the stripes on Adrien's shirt disappeared and ended up on the cabinet in the background

#how does this even happen #lies #мой пост #adrien agreste #miraculous ladybug #ml #miraculous

[buggachat]

Part 158 of my bakery “enemies” au!

First / Prev / Next / All

Kofi

#ml #miraculous ladybug #miraculous #marinette dupain cheng #marinette dupain-cheng #adrien agreste #adrienette #adrinette #ladynoir #my art #bakery enemies au #I DEBATED HAVING ADRIEN IN PANTS VS NO PANTS FOR A WHILE WHEN I ORIGINALLY DREW THESE PANELS WEEKS AGO #BUT I SETTLED ON GIVING HIM PANTS BECAUSE I WAS A COWARD #BUT THEN EVERYONE JUST ASSUMED HE WAS PANTSLESS ANYWAYS AND THAT WAS SO FUNNY I WENT BACK AND CHANGED THIS PART TO REMOVE HIS PANTS #HES FREE NOW #its ok he's wearing underwear #that one joke art i drew of adrien being like ''you'd like to know wouldnt you'' i drew thinking he was wearing pants and that was the joke #but now that he's NOT wearing pants his ass cheeks really were just on full display there huh #it's fine. it's fine. dont worry about it. #''i don't change my comic based on reader reactions'' i said. well i lied. i took away adriens pants. ive betrayed myself

[iwasbored777]

At least when Adrien was breaking up with Marinette he didn't tell her he thinks he saw a wasp

#Even as someone who doesn't like Kagami I choked when he said it #Jesus Christ #He really is his father's son #Only his father has these braincells #It's in the family #I hope Marinette's children inherit her braincells #miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #marinette dupain cheng #Chat Noir #Marichat #kagami tsuguri #Ml lies #ml elation #Adrigami

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

meet the cast of "lies of attrition"

everything's going so well in my and @ladyofthenoodle 's post-s5 fic! look how fine it's going! absolutely nothing can or will go wrong!

#lies of attrition #loa #miraculous ladybug #mlb #ml fanfic #miraculous fanart #post-s5 #season 5 spoilers #re-creation spoilers #ml recreation #adrinette #djwifi #feligami #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #nino lahiffe #alya cesaire #felix graham de vanily #felix fathom #kagami tsurugi

[adrinoir]

Is Cat Noir selfish?

Alright, alright. After season 4, I’ve seen a bit of discourse that Cat Noir is selfish because he makes this all about his own feelings. I can see why it comes across that way but from my perspective:

No, he’s not selfish.

I’m not saying that to be biased or side with him, I’m saying there’s reasons why he acted the way he did. Was it necessarily an okay way to react? No. He could’ve handled it a bit better than he did, but I understand why he did the things he did.

Poor communication

Both Ladybug and Cat Noir went through a lot of their own personal issues this season, which greatly affected their dynamic with each other.

The biggest issue was that there was little to no communication between them, on both sides. Cat Noir made an effort to ask if she was okay, took her to the movies, and offered he’s here if she needs to talk. However, Ladybug was far too stressed, and she didn’t want to talk about it - she wanted a distraction.

Notice how even at the end of Gang of Secrets, she still lied to her friends, saying she’s just heartbroken that she can’t be with Luka or Adrien. She wasn’t planning on revealing her identity at all. Alya was the one who prodded because she was concerned. She knew Marinette wasn’t telling them what the real problem was, and wanted her to feel okay opening up to her.

If Alya hadn’t noticed and stayed longer to talk to Marinette, she wouldn’t even have told her everything. Cat Noir doesn’t know exactly what’s going on in Ladybug’s personal life and didn’t want to overstep boundaries by prodding her to tell him. He’s in a different position than Alya.

As far as Cat Noir knows, Ladybug is stressed from her new guardianship and might’ve suffered recent heartbreak. So, of course he’s not going to ask her too many questions nor dump his own problems into her.

However, he doesn’t understand why her reaction to this is an excuse to rely on so many other heroes. He feels it’s unnecessary when he’s the one that’s been her day 1 partner - Master Fu had made him her helping paw for a reason. Ladybug continuously kept him in the dark. This leads us into the next part.

From his perspective, dots aren’t connecting

Why is Ladybug getting all these heroes to help her? From the audience’s perspective, we know she’s just trying to get more help when Adrien is too busy to help - which is beyond his control, his father is forcing him to do things. She doesn’t know where he’s at, she’s stressed, so she goes to get the extra help. But he doesn’t know this. He thinks he’s being blown off and she doesn’t need his help anymore.

Ladybug won’t even tell him who the other heroes are, and to Cat Noir, it just feels like strong distrust. He doesn’t understand why she wouldn’t just tell him. He also just suddenly got a message from Rena Rouge about a whole plan between her and Ladybug. Just overall, she makes a big step into the picture when that was never the case in the past months he’s worked with Ladybug.

Also, his own best friend revealed him and Alya’s hero identities to him, and told him Ladybug gave them their miraculouses in front of each other the one day. That absolutely seems awful to Adrien, because looking at it from his perspective, he doesn’t know she was rushing that day and couldn’t separate them. It’s devastating for him because it’s Ladybug breaking her own rule that she constantly pushes onto him about not revealing their identities to others.

I’m also thinking at some point, Ladybug assumed Cat Noir was purposely staying out of it because he was getting overwhelmed and unhappy. Think about it. In Kuro Neko, she told Plagg she thought he wanted a break.

Also, take notice as to Ladybug ditching patrol in Lies. We know she was trying to spend time with Luka, but also consider, maybe it wasn’t the first time she did that. We weren’t really given a timeline on how long she was with Luka. I think it was short, but still. Cat Noir could easily get the wrong idea if she’s not even showing up to patrols.

I’m honestly in agreement with Master Su Han saying she should know Cat Noir’s identity. It’s risky, but if it’s properly executed, it would make Ladybug’s situation easier, knowing where Cat Noir is. And just as well, he should know where she is if she’s ditching patrols.

He plays an important part in helping her out - he’s proven that. But, it’s definitely a sucky feeling for him when he happens to show up late and the akumatized victim is already gone. Why show up when she’s calling other heroes and seemingly pushing him away?

Bottling up the stress

I mentioned this shortly in the first section. Cat Noir kept almost all of his stress under wraps in front of Ladybug. He didn’t want to add onto the stress she was already dealing with. Piling more stress onto someone else who’s already stressed and dealing with their own issues only makes things worse.

However, did it make things better? No, it absolutely didn’t. Adrien has an insane father who never taught him healthy ways of coping with stress. Unhealthy patterns were passed down.

We’ve seen Adrien destroy things when he’s stressed. This isn’t new. It was shown even in the Christmas special that his only way of getting any sort of tension out is destroying things. And who does he mirror? His father.

We saw Gabriel crack Emilie’s coffin in Risk. He’s a villain - he has akumatized victims and senti beings destroy Paris and people. And ironically, Adrien’s power as Cat Noir is cataclysm, which destroys anything he touches. He nearly unalived Alya with his power because he was enraged and thought she was a sentimonster. It’s absolutely awful. This kind of unhealthy behavior isn’t really a good thing to portray on a kids show.

Cat Noir is Adrien’s escape

I talked about this in my latest analysis. Being Cat Noir is an entire new life for Adrien. It’s his escape from his terrible home life.

Ladybug isn’t aware of that at all, and like I mentioned before, she thinks he needs a break from being Cat Noir. She asks him once if he’s okay, but he feels too hurt to open up. Plus, they’re not supposed to be giving away details about their personal lives to each other.

Adrien is so neglected and forced into things in his everyday life. Any kind of problems that develop in his life as Cat Noir is devastating for him and heightens his depression because it’s his only escape aside from school. No surprise he has a nasty reaction to Ladybug pushing him away.

The main plot of the show is the love square

I don’t understand how there’s people in the fandom who tend to forget this. The biggest premise of the show aside from defeating Hawk Moth is Ladybug and Cat Noir getting together.

The writers purposely create drama and tension between them for that very reason. It’s supposed to keep you on the edge of your seat, wondering what’s going to blow up in their relationship and how they’re going to get through the issues they have.

I’ve seen people say he got what he wanted by the end of season 4 - being Ladybug’s one and only- despite his bad behavior. That’s the whole thing. It’s made clear from the very beginning of the show that it’s supposed to be them - Ladybug and Cat Noir against the world. No matter how stupid these two act and what mistakes they make, in the end, it will always be them.

Cat Noir made his apology in Kuro Neko that he’s being too pushy. Ladybug owned up to her mistakes in Strikeback. They hugged it out, Cat Noir made sure Ladybug knew she’ll never be alone. He understood she needed not only him but others in Paris just as well.

There may still be a messy situation between them, but things have improved. Strikeback was marvelous and a step up from everything that has happened between them.

Conclusion

Adrien/Cat Noir isn’t selfish. He was pushed into doing things for his father which led him into not showing up for every mission, and he felt unimportant when Ladybug was calling on other heroes before him. Cat Noir is his escape. His bad parent leads him to feel this way and cope poorly.

Ladybug/Marinette has her own issues as well, and I’m not trying to say Cat Noir’s problems are far worse. I’m saying his problems caused him to act badly, almost as if he’s making it all about himself when that isn’t his intent.

I’ve never seen Adrien as a selfish character. He’s constantly bottling up his own problems and instead listening to other people and protecting them. It’s a shame Thomas Assfuck dislikes his own deuteragonist because Adrien doesn’t deserve character assassination.

There were people who actually dropped him as their favorite character just from his behavior this season. I get it if you don’t and don’t wanna read my long ass analysis lol, but this just gives it some reason. Get wrecked, Adrien salters.

#miraculous ladybug #tales of ladybug and cat noir #miraculers #miraculous #adrien agreste #chat noir #ladybug #ml season 4 #ml analysis #cat noir #character assassination #ml rocketear #rocketear #ml gang of secrets #ml strike back #ml love square #ml kuro neko #kuro neko #ml lies