#moral greyness

[girl4music]

Another thing that Wynonna gets right that Buffy didn’t. I say “right”. What I mean is it’s what I prefer to see. Moral greyness. Without stipulations. Just the simple “I’m a better person than I was before” even when they’re not technically a “person” anymore.

“I do what needs to be done ‘cause I’m a hero. And you know what, yeah, sometimes that makes me a killer.”

“‘Cause I would die to save my sister. Or kill. Anyone. Everyone… I just want to keep my family safe.”

“You can't keep doing this. Killing people and pretending like it doesn't affect you.”

“Right would’ve been shooting that thing and us running for it!”

“He wasn't always a thing, Doc. And if I'm gonna keep killing them and not go crazy, then I need more than revenge!”

“God damn it, Wynonna, they’re bad people!”

“So I’m just supposed to ignore that they’re people at all?”

“You would be dead before you drew.”

“This whole ‘fastest gunslinger in the west,’ that something you proud of? Shooting people who don’t have a chance to fight back?”

“Some people deserve to be shot.”

“Who decides that? ‘Cause the history books say one thing; my family says another. So you tell me, do you deserve a bullet or do I? Maybe, I’ll let fate decide.”

“Whatever side we fight on, the blood we shed to win the war, will damn us all.”

“It’s not a war, Holliday. It’s just a town filled with women who would have us both fight to the death.”

Moral high ground is annoying and preachy. And there’s nothing really to learn from it other than good vs evil. But real people who have experienced both sides know that it’s not that simple or easy. Not at all.

Buffy touches on this a few times. But the problem is they don’t really explore it properly. And they keep to the moral high ground of a hero is always the law. And what that does is it prevents any real moral greyness because the heroes are always the heroes and the villains are always the villains: it’s not how it works.

So in this way - I actually prefer ‘Wynonna Earp’ because they properly explore what should have been explored in ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ but never is. They have the conversations - the conflicts - but they don’t have the “am I really a hero for killing them”? And the reason why they don’t is because the canon lore is “demonic possession” rather than demonic corruption. Yet the arcs themselves show otherwise.

Wynonna leans into what is shown in the arcs.

They don’t reinforce the canon lore when the canon lore no longer makes any sense because of the arcs.

With Wynonna I get good AND evil and the fluctuation and the questioning of which side is which…

With Buffy I get “I am the Law and that’s that” when the other characters are challenging the hero on this. But the hero doesn’t learn anything from that conflict.

Because the hero always has to be the hero in the end.

There’s a mountain of war veterans that will say this isn’t realistic. It’s not the way any of that ever works.

So in this way - yes, Wynonna is better than Buffy. And I would even say Wynonna is a better lead protagonist because her flaws are on display and are addressed as flaws rather than just qualities and skills that she has to have to win a supernatural war that she never really gave any true consent to be the collateral damage for. I don’t think anyone realizes that Buffy isn’t a militant. She’s not a trained professional like Riley and Sam are. And she gets a Watcher to “train” her who isn’t either. She pretty much learns to deal all on her own which is inspiring but isn’t realistic. And is - in reality - illegal.

And I don’t know. Maybe there’s some kind of appeal in watching that very nihilistic point of view. But I would have preferred it if this woman got to retire and let everyone else that could and would fight take over. And I would have preferred it if they addressed that maybe not everyone on the side of “evil” had to die ‘cause if you make that damning call then you’re not really on the side of “good” either. You just play god. And I’m not saying Buffy did that but there was no real exploration of whether that is how she’s ending up even when it was revealed that she was part demon. Made from a demon. Whatever. You know what I mean. Belonging to the dark as much as the light.

And so Wynonna did what Buffy was too afraid to do.

And in the end - for me - it just leaves it all empty.

The Chosen One is a difficult concept to work with. But it’s compelling to watch because it’s difficult.

And I just think ‘Wynonna Earp’ did it better in the end. I think it ended the “right” way that it should.

I think it comes down to the differences in the creators/showrunners. Joss Whedon VS Emily Andras. Whedon took the nihilistic approach because he is nihilistic man. Andras took the realistic approach.

So the point I’m making is nihilism is not realistic. And it’s not realistic because there is meaning in the world. It’s just that you have to be brave enough to make that meaning. To determine that reality for yourself without being the arbiter of everyone else’s fate or destiny. Otherwise you just end up being what did that to you. And in all honesty I just think Joss Whedon gave up. You can say that he was always a monster anyway - and obviously cast confessions have testified to this - but I think it’s more likely that he just turned into one because he stopped believing that heroes are corruptible and villains are redeemable eventually - which is the reality of real people. Real human people. And then you have Emily Andras writing the complete opposite to that. Showing the complete opposite of it. That morally grey is the nature of everything that exists. It is only our choices that define who we are. And we step into the role of either hero or villain depending on which it is we choose to do in the moment. It is never inherently the only way to be. And this same philosophy goes for whether human/mortal or not because conscious beings are still real people.

Good VS evil isn’t a good story to tell if there’s no point to it that is actually relatable to real people. Everybody loves the metaphorical unpinnings of Buffy. There’s been books and thesis after thesis written on the cleverness of the metaphors used to tell the story. The deeper aspects to the teen supernatural concept. And it is clever. Absolutely. I’m not denying that at all. But I just think it fell flat as far as the final season goes because Whedon and Co just seemed to stop caring. And it’s just sad to say that others have done it better precisely because it ended better because they cared.

Maybe Whedon drove himself to nihilism in the end 😔

#wynonna earp #melanie scrofano #buffy the vampire slayer #buffy summers #what I think wynonna did right compared to buffy #moral greyness #I guess a slayer is really just a killer after all #emily andras #joss whedon

[alicentes]

I really wanted alicents motivation to “be you know? What I’ve suffered for over 20 years, lost my youth and I’m not going to sit around and potentially lose my children. Fuck viserys, I’m putting my son on the throne and I will be his main advisor. I deserve power for myself and my family.” Instead of “viserys told me half a prophecy when he was high now Aegon must be king”

#they could hsve still made her sympathetic while making her crave power and show her moral greyness. there’s no need to take away he agency. #alicent hightower #house of the dragon #hotd #team green

[mightymizora]

Someone told me they found Gale's romance path to be manipulative. Now, as someone who was manipulated a fuckton, I was reluctant to start it upon being told this.

But I just finished it today and-

What. I don't- I don't see it? Am I missing something? What the hell-

I mean...

I feel like it really depends what choices you make with Gale on the journey to me, and how much moral weighting one puts into manipulation. He is a manipulator of the Weave and I think that is reflected in where he sits morally - he is almost always open to the possibilities of things, he doesn't want to ascribe right or wrong, just theory and practice. I do think that if you don't come down hard enough on the crown stuff, then he is being a tad manipulative - there's so many times where he accidentally lets slip that the crown is really of import to him, and then corrects himself to say us. Whether or not he wants to admit it to the player or even to himself, the crown is yet another way for him to try and prove his worth.

I don't think he's malicious, I just think he's a bit emotionally careless when faced with the prospect of forbidden knowledge (delicious!) or a great, heroic crusade (which is definitely how he views his pursuit of the crown, though I kind of think he's kidding himself a bit.) I think that's kind of the price you pay for tangling with a guy who has been told his whole life that his value is in his ability and the fact that he is a prodigy - that kind of thing messes a person up.

I also feel this is the thing that gets skipped over in the Mystra stuff too, which is going to make me unpopular - how much was he telling the truth about solely wanting to impress her with a romantic gesture, and how much of that is him re-writing it, justifying what was really an attempt to show her that he is her equal, better than her other chosen, more worthy?

I do love though that you can steer him away from this and that he at least in part wants that. To discover his humanity, his humility, to get a chance to just be a person. Beautiful!

#this got a bit long but these are my thoughts at least #it's not a bad thing but it's not a good thing #more moral greyness especially in wizards! #feel free to reply or reblog though #bg3 #gale of waterdeep #gale dekarios

[odessastone]

My favorite part of writing Lifeweaver is playing up his usual silly goofy funney guy act, then throwing in a “his family hasn’t talked to him in 10 years” or “every day he grapples with the knowledge that he could be killed at any moment and his creation used to usher in an ecological dystopia the likes of which we’ve never seen before”

#overwatch #lifeweaver #honestly what I love about him (of many things) is his moral greyness and his hubris #cause like. sure he wants to heal the world and all that #but he also knows full well what hells could be unleashed by a corporation getting hold of his ‘self-propagating biomass’ #but he creates it anyway. because he can #and lbr you know there is zero chance that biolight will not eventually fall into wicked hands if Niran ‘gives it to the world’ #once it’s out there he won’t be able to control who has it or what they do with it #so yeah. he knew all that entailed but he still wanted to play savior anyway #maybe to prove that he’s worth something - that his life is more than just a series of failures

[dipplinduo]

Ladies, Gentlemen, & Folks, May I Present:

THE NEXT INSTALLATION OF SWEET & SOUR DIPPLINS - "WHAT IF" SERIES: What if we had Drayton's POV?

This is a special edition chapter for a few reasons:

1 - Drayton x iconic, obv. B)

2 - I accidentally basically wrote a double chapter's worth because I had fun and also literally pulled from 4 different chapters for content.

3- Unlike other "What If" spinoffs, this particular chapter can be considered CANON, as you are reading a different POV on unchanged events. And you may find some important information that has yet to be addressed in S&S D or will never be addressed again S&S D, but is canon! LOL.

Important complimentary pictures to accompany this special occession:

Hope you enjoy! B)

#my fics #dipplinshipping #kieran pokemon #kieran x juliana pokemon #juliana x kieran pokemon #juliana pokemon #kieran x juliana #juliana x kieran #drayton pokemon #drayton being iconic #your honor this character has a chokehold on me with his strategies and moral greyness #it terrifies me how easily writing him came to me #my struggle with Juliana often revolves around flushing things out #my struggle with Kieran often revolves around the tediousness of depicting his oddly poetic brain #my struggle with drayton? #nonexistant #LOL

[atsukunaritai]

ワンルームエンジェル　第１・２話　　　　　 　　　one room angel - ep. 1&2

#just started watching this so i'm mad i juuust missed ep2 release on tver and now can't find a quality source for it sorry for this trash #a harada manga getting a live action... who would've ever thought. luckily i don't remember what happens in this one so it's a surprise #at least i feel like i remember this one being way less f'd up than the others so it's prob a good one to do a live action on haha #one room angel #jdrama #i'm happy i don't really remember what happens in this one but regardless it is harada so i'm guessing it won't be for everyone #but for people interested in Different stories with Different characters it's likely gonna be a refreshing one. a lot of moral greyness #this angel typing away on a smartphone and saying チン毛 like it's nothing... yeah that ep 3 reveal makes a lot of sense haha #i like how the dialogue is rly harada-esquely just Saying Shit so it's prob staying pretty close to the manga i think #honestly i just wanted to gif this mfer basically motorboating the wings hahahaa #but i don't have the ep in 1080p aaaaaaaaaaa so it looks like crap but it is what it is #mine

[ilynpilled]

i can fully understand the gripes with certain misogynistic tropes/writing issues that are present in the execution of some of cersei’s writing, but i will never understand the “she should have a redemption arc” or “she should be more likeable/less morally dark” perspective. that is not what her character is or has to be to make it great. wanting more female anti-heroes or “redemption arcs” with moral greyness and complexity of the level that asoiaf gives to primarily male characters is entirely understandable, but do some of you people even like cersei as a character, like at its core? like this is not about criticising the execution of certain things when it comes to this character, this is about taking issue with her as a villain fundamentally, which i just do not agree with at all

#i also do not understand why she is juxtaposed only w her brothers #in this respect #like if u wanna take issue w not as many female anti heroes that r allowed the level of true moral greyness of j theon etc i get that #but thats a whole text problem like a family isnt a monolith they r different characters with different drives its not a competition between #them #all three r dealing w some very very diff things too like they r distinct characters #and i honestly dont think cersei’s character set up works with a redemption story like she specifically is way more interesting as she is #she is a discussion of tropes when it comes the ‘female villain’ and u can take issue w the execution but i like the concept a lot #like she is written the way she is for a reason why do u want her to be a different character entirely #like if u want this why not advocate for george making a female character whose story would actually work with the redemption trope instead #of making their writing weaker and less trope busting #ig i just really like with cersei the idea that her being an evil perpetrator doesnt erase her being a victim of misogyny and vice versa #like i like that challenge that she is deserving of sympathy for these things without the need to redeem her or make her ‘likeable’ #patriarchal violence will affect all women #and the story deserves to work just as well with someone u r not supposed to root for #its about the humanization of these people #evil doesnt exist in a vacuum #and it makes perfect sense that these specific systemic conditions create it #and then perpetuate it

[sonik-kun]

I do find it interesting that JC antis have the nerve to call us "fake JC fans" and accuse us of mischaractersing him when it is them who fail to understand him as a character.

A true fan, as they claim to be, would look at things from JC's pov and come to understand why he made those decisions and understand his feelings on things that he had little information to go from in the first place.

To say we disregard his "bad" qualities is completely untrue, too. Every JC fan I know acknowledges that he is flawed, just like WWX and LWJ are really. But they are all qualities that we love about him because being morally grey is what makes him human and interesting.

His moral greyness has never been disregarded by us. It has merely been explained and understood because it is important to look at things from all perspectives, rather than just the MC's in order to understand and properly appreciate the story.

Jiang Cheng is flawed. But as a human we can relate to his emotions, his reactions to things and how he became the person he is because a true fan would put themselves in his shoes in order to understand that.

To claim JC is bad through and through with no redeeming qualities in him is factually incorrect because it excludes all his good qualities that have been both explicitly and inexplicitly put there by the author for you to pick up on.

In ignoring them, you are doing MXTX's work a disservice.

If you want to talk about irredeemable characters, there are plenty others in the novel whose actions can never be justified.

Jin Guangshan, for example, was a character I immediately simped for thanks to his gorgeous Donghua design ✨️. But I understood completely that he was a vile, irredeemable person with not an ounce of goodness in him.

I also loved Wen Chao and Wen Ruohan and found their arc to be thoroughly amusing throughout. But again, I understood that there was no justifying their actions, as I'm sure many other JC fans would agree.

As much as I love these characters and consider myself a fan of them, I appreciate that there is no good bone in their body. They had no reason other than pure, evil intent to do what they did. There were no other nuances to it compared to the likes of JC and JGY, whose actions can be both sympathised and understood.

These characters were the TRUE villains, and it is perhaps them you should be focusing on in your metas if you want to discuss purely evil and irredeemable characters in your work.

To claim that all JC fans have no reading comprehension or any understanding of morals is a silly thing to accuse us of when you know full well that we don't give the likes of WRH and JGS the same treatment as we do JC.

Anyone who says JC is evil and irredeemable yet still claims to love and "stan" him is not a true fan in my eyes and completely misunderstood the character altogether. Sorry.

#mxtx mdzs #mo dao zu shi #jiang cheng #canon jiang cheng #jiang wanyin #mdzs meta #the difference between moral greyness and true evil is something that needs to be properly understood in this fandom #because it doesn't seem to be clicking amongst some of yall

[sunlit-haruka]

All I'm trying to say is I think more people in the Milgram fandom should watch Infinity Train and vice versa

#It's the moral-greyness #It's the toxic environments that lead to cycles of hurt #it's the queer-codedness #and also it has jesse cosay and hazel in it and milgram has haruka sakurai kotoko yuzuriha and amane momose in it #And personally I think that's enough to watch both #haru chats about milgram #haru chats about infinity train #milgram #milgram project #infinity train

[girl4music]

ROSITA: “You know, you lock shit up, you think people would stay out of it.”

WAVERLY: “What? Boyfriend people?”

ROSITA: “Decidedly non-boyfriend people. Never mind. Either stop staring at me like a midway attraction or pony-up five bucks for admission.”

WAVERLY: “Sorry. Rude. Okay. Here’s to you. Who saved my life. Who happens to be a…”

ROSITA: “Say it.”

WAVERLY: “A revenant. God. So weird. You’re just such an awesome person.”

ROSITA: “So, are you going to give me a head start? Before you tell Wynonna about me.”

WAVERLY: “No, I don’t… I’m not going to. Because then I’d have to tell her about me.”

ROSITA: “What? That you’re annoyingly sweet?”

WAVERLY: “I think I’m half revenant. Wow, that’s the first time I’ve said it out loud to… to anyone.”

ROSITA: “Even Nicole?”

WAVERLY: “Nicole. Oh, God, Nicole… Oh that text was so nasty. She’s going to need some space.”

ROSITA: “Screw space. You need to get up in her face and make things right. I gave a guy space once. Took up with his best friend. And that friend was on Wyatt’s shit-list. Yeah. Worst second date ever.”

WAVERLY: “Do you think she’s up yet?”

ROSITA: “Miss Pleat-in-her-pants is probably doing a sun salutation as we speak. But she’ll open the door for you. No matter what time.”

Ah mutual moral greyness. I do love it. Not all demons are evil, not all angels are good. That kind of thing.

It’s nice that Waverly can open up to someone who she knows would understand her. Rosita keeps her secret, she’ll keep hers. It works out. But as far as being more than friends… I don’t think it would work out. Rosita appears to be very supportive of WayHaught so she probably believes the same. I think they will end up really good friends though considering their mutual revenant-cy. Someone to relate to and resonate with every once in awhile will do them both some good for their own sense of sanity.

So Waverly is not going to tell Wynonna nor Nicole that she’s part demon. That Bobo is her father.

Hmm… we’ll see how long that lasts. She might have to use her revenant powers at some point. Maybe they’ll even be used instinctively for the greater good.

See it’s this shit that captures my undivided attention. I really do love moral greyness in a supernatural story.

#wynonna earp #forever mine nevermind #waverly earp #dominque provost chalkley #rosita bustillos #tamara duarte #moral greyness #mutual revenant-cy #can I see the red eyes? #come on waverly #let me see your demon face #I won’t judge #not if it’s still you #this is why mictian didn’t stand a chance with you #you already belong to the dark side babe

[isa-ah]

not to beat a dead horse bc I know I've said this a thousand times already but totk sucked. there was nothing to work with after it ended. by this time in botw content circles it was ramping UP. it went for YEARS with elaborate theories and videos and an entire secondary canon built by theorists and fans. when was the last time you saw someone talk about totk? how much positive discussion have you seen about the story, ever? theories, world building, etc? anything at all?

#i follow a ton of zeldatubers bc i was really into the botw content when it was happening #and after totk dropped it went from weekly if not daily uploads to. crickets. #and occasionally zeltik or monster maze put out a video but even then its with none of the passion or creativity they had before #and its bc totk was just. BAD. it was so literally botw 2. #bad dungeons a thousand shrines a story told theough small peeks #except unlike botw there was no emotional hook with the characters. nothing personal. we dont know ANYTHING abt the sages #their two biggest hooks were the zonai (who they entirely changed from what people found interesting in botw- #-then did nothing to elaborate on. at all. no history no world building no character arcs at all) #and the sky islands (which were rare. copy and pasted. scattered small identical puzzles) #like what did you even do? you took away all moral greyness all character development all personal investment #and you gave us all the same flaws and THEN some while saying you were listening to what the fans had to say #what was the point even. the only good part of totk was tulin.

[teagrammy]

Season one of Blue Eye Samurai is going to be living in my head rent free until a second season is announced

#blue eye samurai #holy shit that ending #‘your white half is showing’ OH THAT MADE ME FERAL #fowler as a villain is so fucking interesting #i want to see akemi smother her father so bad #my boys ringo and taigen getting time hopefully!! #also MIZU FUCKING IT UP #her androgynous slay and moral greyness have enraptured me

[reel-fear]

Susie designs that have her as a black woman >>>>

Susie designs that have her plus sized >>>>>>>

Susie designs that have her with freckles, stretch marks, with scars or crooked, wide or hooked noses >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Versions of Susie that struggle with her self image due to not looking like the spitting image of an "ideal woman" that existed in the 1930's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

VERSIONS OF SUSIE THAT TIE ALL THAT INTO HER NEED TO BECOME ALICE ANGEL, WHOSE OBSESSION WITH ALICE COMES FROM ALICE FITTING THOSE BEAUTY STANDARDS BETTER THAN SHE DOES. HOW SHE WOULD DIE TO BE AS "BEAUTIFUL" AS ALICE AND NEEDS TO LEARN THAT SHE IS, TO BE ABLE TO MOVE ON FROM JOEY CONVINCING HER SHE WASN'T!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Versions of Susie who do some or all of the above but don't demonize Allison when they do it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#ramblez #susie campbell #batim #batdr #bendy and the dark revival #bendy and the ink machine #I like susie can ya tell #and have a lot of fun ideas for places u could take her character esp with her need to be perfect and become alice #thats not to say any susie that doesnt fall under these is bad just that I love these kind of takes on her particularly #I mean unless u like make susie evil just to elevate the male characters or make them victims #or just in general make ur susies like super evil abusers then I might have some problems since thats just straight up misogny #btw if u read this and think hm my susie is kinda like that just so u know no dont send me ask #just rewrite her to be better and reconsider how ur biases affect the writing of ur male characters vs female ones and think on how to #improve that n such #esp if u also have male characters who are bad people but write them with compelling reasons why or moral greyness meanwhile dont do #the same for ur female characters who are also bad people #kinda vaguing some aus n bits of writing I have seen can ya tell- #anyways yeah thats it I love susie and be nice to her or else seeya-

[mikimeiko]

The Lazarus Project | Season 2 (2023), Joe Barton

#the lazarus project #tlpedit #WHAT A SECOND SEASON #i couldn't stop watching #and to think i wasn't even as excited to start it #i love so much how this show is constructed #layers and deeper understanding and recontextualization #the depth of the characters and the fucking moral greyness #a time travel show where the focus is 'actions have consequences actually' #love it can't wait for season 3 #tv shows i watched in 2023 #i made this #i just want a tag for the things i personally put out into the world

[51ft]

all the bg3 companions have this really well realized conflict between 'want' vs 'need' and it's really cool to see how they get rly nice satisfying arcs with both their 'good' and 'bad' endings

' i just wish the game itself didnt so heavily disincentivise less-good playthroughs by barring you from so much content and making everything you could do so cartoonishly evil it just doesnt make sense

#bg3 spoilers #like as silly as some of the discourse became it was really cool to see the insistence that ascended astarion was a 'good' ending #and honestly all the character writing for the other characters also had that same level of nuance imo #in a different game gale fighting god or shadowheart becoming a dark justiciar would've also counted for a 'positive' ending #but bc the player character themselves can only pick the stupid evil options it makes exploring that stuff feel so much clunkier to me #it would've been cool to do a more morally grey playthrough to have parity w/ the moral greyness ur companions get... #durge is cool but they are also stupid evil bc everything they do is the murderhobo option #they get a better motivation to do those things but its still not the same... #my flavour......... #but im just ranting in the tags bg3 is still the video game ive been wanting my entire life and nothing will change tha #also we dont talk about the lack of any real endings i look away

[hamletteprinceofdenmark]

*Holding Jack Seward in my arms like a disgruntled cat*

Y’all just don’t understand him like I do

#Jack seward #Dracula #Dracula daily #*baby talking him as I hold him up to my face* you’re the representation of the inherent moral greyness embedded in our medical system #aren’t you? aren’t you? #you represent the allure of knowledge vs humanity and how action makes the man don’t you? #my Dracula daily