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#most of the people who want Gwyn to be an evil lightsinger just want her out of the way of elriel
yazthebookish · 18 days
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I avoid talking about the other ship specifically but I feel like letting my thoughts out on some arguments I see sometimes. Not that I have any interest in engaging in any discourse with the other side but it's my page so I can post whatever I feel like posting.
"Gwyn's purpose in the bonus chapter is to hint at her Lightsinger powers"
Okay, so you think one of the most important points about the bonus chapter is to prove Gwyn has luring powers so my question is what are the implications of that? Her drawing Azriel away from Elain? Azriel and Elain exposing her true powers in front of everyone to reveal she is the reason she's been keeping them apart? She is being manipulated by Merrill and Koschei? She has powers she's using unknowingly and can't control them so she'll need Az and Elain to help her?
You're setting up Gwyn to be prominent in an Azriel/Elain book because of her powers, so will they spend time dealing with other plotlines or mainly focus on Gwyn? Because that kind of thing definitely needs resolution since it directly impacts Nesta and the Valkyries dynamic.
So do Azriel and Elain's fantastic romance needs another female character to be used as a scapegoat to pin all their issues on her because the bonus chapter wasn't a good look on them? Or simply because his scene with Gwyn and with Clotho ended on a hopeful note than his scenes with Elain and Rhysand?
Gwyn is an irrelevant character and serves Nesta's story only.
But your argument is she has luring powers and is using them on Azriel, so will that go unaddressed? Then why would SJM throw hints about her powers if it won't mean anything?
Gwyn was used just as a marketing ploy in the bonus chapter.
She's considered a new character and no one knew she was in Azriel's bonus chapter and the bonus chapter was strictly advertised to be focused on Azriel, please be serious.
The bonus chapter is irrelevant.
The author confirmed she planted things in it specifically and in ACOSF in relation to Azriel so I would disagree. The great "forbidden romance" trope wouldn't exist without it and Azriel and Elain spoke to each other more in the bonus chapter than they ever did in the main book, I can pin-point the scene where they speak to each other only ONCE in a 800+ page book and it was about Nesta dancing with the Duke.
Gwyn has powers.
She's Fae of course she has powers but why is the immediate assumption that her powers are nefarious? She didn't harm any character and there was zero hints of her having any bad intentions towards anyone. She deals with survivor's guilt and her trauma, but she had many opportunities to let that evil secret side show but it never did. Why? Because she's obviously not set up to be an evil character or even one with questionable intentions. This is the same character who was ready to sacrifice herself to save her friends and stood by Nesta to face hateful males who wanted to k*ll them.
She's a Lightsinger.
Pretty easy to debunk because there is no correlation based on what we know and we never even see any Lightsingers. Even if she happens to be one, I believe it'll play out way differently than what some people try to push. And come on, Lightsinger and Shadowsinger? You think SJM wouldn't go for that dynamic? But for now I disagree with it since canon tells us they're monsters who k*ll for sport and Gwyn does none of that. Even if she had other different powers that are not wholly good, it's not a point of concern because many characters have questionable powers that did not erase the fact that they were good characters. It's like people never read fantasy books with characters who had dark powers but it didn't corrupt them, for some reason there's an insistence that Gwyn already caused harm despite the serious implications of having a character who is SA victim portrayed as someone luring other people against their will.
Azriel ended up at the library because Gwyn was singing during the service.
1. Clotho is seen at the service, so her being at her desk when Azriel shows up at the library is a good hint that the services didn't start yet.
2. For a singing power to work, the victim should be able to hear the singing and Azriel made no note of any singing at the library.
3. The image he sees of Gwyn's joy didn't pop up randomly, it was triggered by Clotho after she thanks him for the joy the gift will bring her and tells him that Gwyn deserves something as beautiful as this.
The shadows stay around him because they sense a threat but she's luring them.
How is she luring them when she's not even singing if it's been established that her singing has powers? Also, that statement contradicts what's in the text because the shadows were curious at start of the scene and by the end they were described to have calmed and were content to watch Gwyn. In ACOSF, they were seen dancing around Az when Gwyn addresses him.
Nesta reacted to Gwyn's singing the same way Azriel did.
Context matters and a lot of arguments that support this statement are always taken out of context. Nesta loves music so if she is going to admire Gwyn's beautiful voice, it'll be simply for that and nothing more.
There is no way to 100% pin point what caused Nesta to have visions of the Prison during the services but it doesn't only have to be Gwyn's singing but also the lyrics which were found under Level Seven and are written in an ancient language. When Nesta gets the vision she says she can visualize what the song spoke of, meaning the song itself could be talking about story of the Prison/Land of Dusk.
"But Azriel's shadows reacted to her singing"
— "How was the party?" Her breath curled in front of her mouth, and one of his shadows darted out to dance with it before twirling back to him. Like it heard some silent music.
Silent music, not singing. Not song. Just like how Hunt mentioned hearing some beautiful music between his and Bryce's souls. Just like how Nesta and Cassian when they consummated their bond heard the music between their souls. Strong sign of Mateism friends.
"But Azriel still heard a beautiful singing, not just music."
— Azriel entered the warmth of the stairwell, and as he descended, he could have sworn a faint, beautiful singing followed him. Could have sworn his shadows sang in answer.
Could she be singing? Maybe though unlikely since she returned to training to cut the ribbon right after he left. If she did, maybe the shadows like her voice? Maybe that's a sign they're fond of her? And if it's not maybe that's another sign that the singing they're hearing is the mating bond, which was once described as the Song of the Soul.
The Shadows having a reaction to singing isn't necessarily a bad sign, we saw them dance to Azriel's humming in HOFAS.
Gwyn returned to the library, her story is over.
I have to assume you haven't read ACOSF or skimmed it if that's the conclusion you came to, because there were clear signs that not only Gwyn but Emerie have ongoing journeys and they will leave where they are right now to see the world outside. Gwyn literally states at around the 70%-80% mark that she's sick of staying in the library for two years and wants to leave. She returned to the library because that's her current residence and where she works, it's not like she'll immediately move out right after facing the Blood Rite. This is one argument I can't take seriously because it clearly contradicts what canon points out and I think it's mostly out of convenience to invalidate any discussions about her healing journey and incomplete arc.
Casual readers don't even ship Azriel and Gwyn and have no knowledge about the bonus chapter
A lot of casual readers do in fact see a potential in Azriel and Gwyn as a romantic pairing because they have canon interactions in ACOSF. Plenty of readers shipped them even before they read the bonus chapter. Casual readers are dismissed when they address that and are claimed to be hardcore shippers that hate Elain when it's not the case since they just point out what they think is the obvious in the book to them. Every casual reader will have a different opinion but for some reason if theirs is not in favor of Elain and Azriel, they'll be dismissed so that says much.
Just a hot take that I wanted to put out there since I'll be avoiding fandom discourse moving on (unless I feel like it Lol).
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coeurdedior · 3 months
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These people are so obsessed with that bonus chapter.
Are they aware that the BC has been translated in only two languages ? (Portuguese and English). And only in a few books.
Most of SJM don’t even know there is a BC.
The BC is just here to give more information.
We know why Azriel stayed at the House of wind and not at the river house (« he’d been so vigilant about keeping away from Elain as possible ») = Elain
We know why he can’t sleep (« too many wants and needs ») = Elain
We know why he stayed at the doorway (« Azriel had needed to stay by the door the whole because he couldn’t stand the sight of it, the scent of their mating bond and needed to have the option of leaving if it became too much ») = Elain
And we know why he was more aloof that usual because Rhysand told him to stay away from Elain
Then, we have that conversation between Az and Gwyn who make some people crazy. When this moment also give to the readers some information. Remember that moment in ACOSF when Gwyn sings and then Nesta have a « vision » about the harp.
The Bonus Chapter just tell you why because Gwyn have some power in her voice. Azriel and his shadows reacted exactly like Nesta. She’s probably a lightsinger. But whatever, the thing is Gwyn’s voice has the power to lure people. ( I don’t think she’s evil maybe manipulated by Merrill who is very sus to me)
The BC changes nothing. SJM knows that not all her readers have access to the BC. It’s a bonus just to give some information to the reader.
It’s not a bonus chapter who is going to end Elriel.
The last interaction between Elain and Azriel for the reader is them exchanging looks (« something charged went through it. Between them »). It’s a romantic interaction. There is something here who will be explore in the next book. After that, there is Nesta in the bloodrite and Feyre’s childbirth. So of course, they have no other interaction after the solstice. And especially in front of Rhysand.
In comparison, The last interaction between Gwyn and Az is when Cassian and Azriel told to Nesta, Emerie and Gwyn the mistakes they made during the bloodrite. Where is the romance here for the reader ?Especially knowing it was off page. When SJM could have easily written about this.
So, It’s not a bonus chapter who will change the next two main characters which have already been named in the book. (Azriel is the last brother who is carrying Nyx and Elain is the last sister who is carrying Nyx in the book). And I love the symbolism.
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greenleaf777 · 4 months
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It’s so bizarre to me that people will assign these random personality traits to characters and get mad when the author doesn’t follow through with what they want or if someone disagrees with them. Az has never once show entitlement for anything not even another spoonful of mashed potatoes so much so that he’s notoriously shown to feel inadequacy most of the time, Elain hasn’t said a thing about wanting to be a mother just cause shes more feminine(we have no idea how she feels about that), i even saw someone say that Elain doesn’t wear the gloves lucien gave her cause its a form of self-harm to be injured gardening(make of that what you will), WHY can’t Elain “handle” Az’s darkness?, Elain is not undeserving of anything, she is not somehow evil when the only thing she has been described as in that regard is unbelievably kind, she is not secretly mean or nasty just because she doesn’t want to talk to Lucien. Period. Az and Elain do deserve each other because they have shown to have feelings for one another. Simple as that. All this talk of who doesn’t deserve someone or deserves someone “better” because of some made up/fanon personality trait is so fucking weird, just stop.
Also another thing I have seen to much of recently is when people giving poor Gwyn some random personality or desires she doesn’t have is ridiculous. She is constantly given traits she does not have at all. Stop making her seem more important to the overall plot and main characters stories than she actually is. She is a very “self-insert” character for readers who have the hots for Az and don’t relate to Elain. Only because she is the only single female thats not Elain LOL. She, like Emerie(who is never talked about, i wonder why?*cough*shesinterestedinfemales*cough*) are there for Nesta. No one else except for Cass has even had much of anything to do with them. Even Az hasn’t said much more than a few words to them, he was training the other priestesses, not nesta and the gang. The characters who are actually vital to the plot that we don’t have a story for yet are Elain, Azriel, Lucien, and Mor(i may argue even Eris). Even if Gwyn is a lightsinger, she would solely be there to create angst or trouble for one or two of the main characters in regards to her powers.
Rant over ahahaha
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sjmgirlie · 19 days
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Okay.
Do we really think that SJM will make Gwyn evil if she’s a lightsinger?
Like let’s be honest with each other here.
Whether you’re pro Eriel or Gwynriel or whatever, SJM is not going to make one of Nesta’s friends evil. You know how damaging it would be for the character who has a hard time letting people in to find out her friend was bad all along?
So no. Gwyn = lightsinger ≠ evil.
There is no way that will happen.
Is she? Most likely. ALL the evidence is there. The fact lightsinger lore was even mentioned in ACOSF is a massive flag for someone being one in the book. Otherwise, why mention it at all?
Gwyn’s relationship with Merill’s is sus. Not on Gwyn’s part as much in Merill’s.
No Eriel is insisting Gwyn is evil to sink a ship. It’s literally just in the text. And each “argument” of that always CLEARLY mentions that NO ONE thinks she’s evil. It is always “she is being used”. At least from what I have seen. I apologize if it hasn’t because wtf.
Same goes with Elain though. Why is everyone trying to make this kind character evil? To make her “interesting”? She already is.. she’s literally a seer. That’s the coolest power after water wolves and misting tbh. Oh and I guess a shadowsinger.
So no. We aren’t trying to make a really genuine and kind character evil. We are just stating what has been presented to us.
Just because I’m Pro Eriel does not mean I’m anti Gwyn. That’s not how I want my ship to be.
If SJM makes Gwyn evil I will genuinely riot.
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gwyns · 4 days
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I read a post from a while ago that said the reason why Elain gave Azriel ear plugs was because she might have an inkling that he might be near a lightsinger. One thing I’ve noticed some E/riel’s do is when Gwyn is brought up about being a lightsinger they say she’s evil, but if there are theories that Elain herself might be one, then lightsinger’s aren’t bad (I’ve actually seen some E/riel’s come up with Elain being a lightsinger theory I’m dead serious). That Elain can sing to or call different things like people, animals, shadows and life/death. It’s like they’re picking and choosing what benefits their ship. How her seer abilities are letting her see this, and not to say that can’t be true, and she avoids Lucien because she sees that they’re not meant to be.
Another post somewhere said Elain might have accidentally thrown Bryce into Prythian while trying to scry for a Dread Trove object or Gwydion and that to get back to Midgard, Bryce will need Elain’s help (this post & theory came out before HOFAS so I’m curious to know their thoughts now🤡). I’ve seen a lot of e/riel’s say that Elain is a spy (and she’ll help Azriel search for the Dread Troves), but if she was then wouldn’t her sisters know or have some inclination? I feel like most E/riel’s only care about self inserting themselves in Elain, for whatever reason, and don’t really care about her. I don’t think Elain will be evil, but I just wanted to share this; there was an evil Elain theory someone had. She gifted Az the headache powder (we don’t know how it works) and earplugs to secretly numb his senses.
i've seen the earplug theory before and my god did it make me laugh like the desperation... but elain being a lightsinger? HUH?? do they not remember the description of them in acosf? they lure people and kill them. they're not beloved by animals or something like wtf??? i can't anymore 😭
if anything i think it'd be more accurate that elain avoids lucien because she sees a happy life for them. like put yourself in her shoes, she was in love with a man who rejected her coldly because of something she had no control over and she's tied to this man she barely knows because of fae magic and now her fae magic is showing her they're going to be perfect together?? i wouldn't be surprised if she thought the bond was influencing her seer abilities somehow
ok look i love elain, she's my soft baby girl, but not everything is about her omfg. clearly their hofas theories were wrong (who's surprised? not me) but it's insane how they shove her into every single plotline. she'll get her own story whenever sjm releases it, relax
i've said before that i don't agree with the "evil elain" theories, it's not something i see sjm doing at all lol she writes her antagonists/soon to be antagonists a certain way and elain doesn't give off those vibes. plus she confirmed her book years ago so yeah, elain is safe. not saying you do, anon, since you said you don't think she will be either. i'm just talking about others i've seen over the years who, for some reason, can't accept that women can be kind and polite and soft without ulterior motives. anyway, moving on... do i think elain could somehow be manipulated by other forces? maybe, but it wouldn't be with the intention to harm anyone else. so i don't think she gifted him those things for any other reason than the fact that they're gag gifts
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funeralflow3rs · 1 year
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"Gwyn is an evil lightsinger" so ur telling me u think Gwyn is so big bad and stronk that she managed to fool Rhys, the most powerful highlord in existence. Amren, the most powerful being in Pythian at one point that would absolutely have sensed ancient evil lurking in her vicinity for two years. Azriel, whose LITERAL JOB it is to sus out bad guys + his shadows who are also obviously intuitive here too. Mor, whose GIFT IS TRUTH. Every priestess in Sangravah that raised her and never felt she or Catrin was a threat and every priestess that she lives with in the library to boot???? Miss 28-year-old Gwyneth Berdara pull the wool over all their eyes Amarantha style just like that?? Because that's exactly what this theory suggests (Also don't get me started on her working w/ Koschei when the only two places Gwyn has ever been in her entire life are Sangravah and the library. See a chiropractor for that reach)
I mean if she managed it good for her, it would be deeply sexy of her to show up everyones faves but I need the haters to be SOOOO fr 😭😭 I beg for this and the evil Rhysand theory to die already. Besides the fact that it insinuates that she's lying about her rape, which is vile and I'm in your walls if you suggest she's fabricated that, nothing about her character or her actions indicates that she's a bad guy and it's WEIRD how much people want to discredit a survivor to further a ship (it's the only reason people dislike her lbr) Not every single minute detail that is said or that happens is foreshadowing. The necklace and the ear plugs specifically, since I see that come up a lot in this argument, are bonus chapter materiel that will likely never have any significance in the other books. Az is not gonna whip out a pair of gifted important earplugs that has the general audience wondering what the hell is going on and what they missed because they don't have the B&N edition of ACOSF.
Anyway, if we're gonna talk about the ancient power Nesta sensed in her, let's talk about Gwyn having Starborn gifts like another redhead with VERY strong ties to an autumn court in another world instead :')
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acourtofthought · 1 year
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E/lriels on social media platforms are making just about every platform impossible to enjoy. I use the block/hide filters liberally and still can’t seem to avoid them. It’s always the same recycled arguments that don’t even make sense and it’s frustrating when you’re just trying to enjoy a fandom. Apparently A) Lucien and Gwyn aren’t important enough characters to have a POV. B) They harp on about canon — yet they want Lucien and Vassa to have a book together when there’s even less to support them having a romance than Gwyn/Az (hmm, wonder why?). C) Gwyn is a lightsinger and lures people (yeah, guess luring someone to gift her a necklace is the most important thing for an evil character?). It’s exhausting. I like Elain. I like Gwyn. I like Lucien. A little iffy on Az sometimes, but he has potential! And I think Gwyn/Az and Elain/Lucien are the pairings that just make sense with everything we’ve been given about all the characters. I’m sure things could change, but it just seems like every possible topic or theory gets hijacked to somehow bring in ships by E/lriels in particular. I’ve been in so many different fandoms over the years & this seems to be the most hostile one at the moment if you don’t go along with the “loud” shippers. I really admire your patience and in-depth analyses when you get asks. At this point, I’m just going to browse yours and a few others’ profiles from time to time and call it a day on ACOTAR forums. No real question, I guess. Just keep doing what you do!
I really appreciate your message!
And I agree, I've seen arguments and snide remarks in fandoms before but I've never seen anything quite like this. Not to mention the appalling attempts that E/riels make at completely tearing apart two main characters of the series.
Like it or not, Lucien is more relevant to the series than Az has ever been.
Who has connections to multiple courts? Direct links to Spring, Autumn and Day? Who has been providing Az and Rhys with need to know information? Who has an in with the human lands which is important when you consider the hints of an upcoming battle with the human queens? Mated to an Archeron sister who was blessed by the Cauldron? Meaning their powers would be equal? Is being set up to become High Lord himself?
Az obtains information for Rhys but I can't say he's all that liked by anyone outside the NC.
Not to mention that Lucien is actually respectful towards Elain while Az is looking to hook up with her after admitting he's never thought of a future for them, how they might be together.
They just look foolish when they act like Azriel is some sort of prize right now while twisting Lucien's character into something unrecognizable.
And pretending that Gwyn hasn't been set up for her own story while acting like Vassa has......the ability to totally ignore pages upon pages of text is some sort of useless yet problematic super power.
I can't even imagine what it will feel when we get an Elucien / Gwynriel confirmation. I have to imagine it will have made the years of harassment and bullying from E/riels completely worth it.
Thank you again for your message! ❤️
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offtorivendell · 2 years
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Why do Gwynriels think the BC is good for their ship?! Like 90% is talking about how much he wants Elain then the other part is her weird powers lol. What am I missing???
Hi Anon,
So I can acknowledge that some people might find the last part of Azriel's bonus chapter as hinting at a GxA romance when taken on it's own - though I agree that it would be A Choice to make the swap to G at the end of a bonus chapter that 1. centred around Elain, and Azriel's desire for her, and 2. was only available from an obscure US bookseller that it seems not even most Americans have heard of (and is only available in one or two languages!) - but I still don't think that it hints at GxA when read in context of ACOSF as a whole, let alone the entire ACOTAR series (though of course, I could always be wrong).
This post is also not intended to judge anyone who prefers the pairing - it's all subjective, you do you.
In terms of G being a lightsinger... if she is, I suspect she's just a baby lightsinger, and possibly doesn't even know what her powers are just yet - she thinks she's part river nymph, which she may still be, but that could also be a cover she was fed as a child for her own safety - and as I've said before, I don't think lightsingers are inherently evil. SJM loves to subvert the monster trope, for one, and two, given the political upheaval that occurred when the High King Fionn was overthrown all those centuries ago, if the lightsingers were involved with the plot against him, whatever it may have been, then I could see them being ostracised and targeted for retribution in the years since. What Cassian told us may have been a twisted narrative of what lightsingers truly are.
I'm a subscriber to the theory that Elain could be a lightsinger, which is described in detail in this post by @wingedblooms, or a lifesinger, as explained by @silverlinedeyes. I also think other lightsingers may live in the library - including, possibly, Clotho and Merrill - so I'm not sure G would be "unique" in that regard, if she's truly more than a faerie with river nymph heritage.
Given the light and shadow dynamics, and Elain's link with both:
Could Elain be light and dark = grey?
There are so many unanswered questions from the first trilogy.
Are Azriel's shadows only dark, or is dark light just one shade that the "shadows" can take on/give out? Could they actually exist on a scale, from dark through neutral/invisible all the way to golden sunlight?
Are shadowsingers and lightsingers the same thing, or even inherently linked* somehow?
Is the shade of the "shadow" magic controlled by mood, maybe like a patronus charm?*
How does Truth-Teller fit in?
* I have so many questions, and I do mean to write a theory about all of this, but my motivation and time have been lacking for a while. 🥲
As I've said a few times before, I don't know why we would have anyone other than Elain Archeron be the character involved with the mystery of the shadows.
In terms of the image of Gwyn's teal eyes sparking in Azriel's chest, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was Clotho who sparked Gwyn's image, maybe with the help of a spelled song from all of the priestesses singing in the cavern below, especially because we know Azriel speaks the language of stone. Could the mountain in/from which the House of Wind is built somehow be taking on the magic of the priestesses' songs and passing it on to Azriel?
There's a lot of possibilities beyond a GxA romance being hinted at, imo, in the last part of Azriel's bonus chapter. Not to mention, Elriel have got it bad!
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freyjas-musings · 1 year
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Hi! I’m new here, but your content has been some of my favorite. I saw one of your answers recently & I’m so over people of a certain ship trying to make Gwyn evil when it doesn’t fit anything at all we’ve learned about her. She and her sister tried to save those children at the temple (for which they both paid dearly), she was an integral part of Nesta’s healing journey, and she’s already had so many opportunities to do harm if that was her intent as a character. I joined the fandom recently & just started looking at Gwynriel related content here and on Reddit & E/lriels have been so off putting everywhere. Has it been like this since ACOSF? Did they hate on Mor x Az as much as they are with Gwyn?
Hello Anon,
First of all thank you so much for your kind words it makes me really happy that you enjoy the content I make.
Unfortunately, with Gwyn being portrayed in an evil capacity, it has been happening since ACOSF and very aggressively too.
The bonus chapter with very clear mate language is where it all started ... inorder to disprove that Gwyn and Azriel are most likely mates and that the reason the shadows are drawn to her because they know that Gwyn is his mate they concocted various BS theories ranging from she is a luring lightsinger to she is working with koschei the death God .
A female who pales seeing Nestas silver flames that is considered unholy power is apparently working with Koschei .... you see the holes in that theory???
If Gwyn is a lightsinger based on the mate language in the bonus chapter, then ... Hunt, Rhys, Cassian, Rowan are all lightsingers too. I am not going to go deeper into the issues with that theory since I have covered them in my previous post.
Canon wise there is absolutely nothing that suggests Gwyn is suspicious at all and if anything she is brave, loyal and extremely kind. Like you said Gwyn sacrificed a lot to save those children in Sangravah and is Nestas found family and an integral part of her life .
Even after going through unimaginable physical trauma she still insists on her sisters cutting the bridge in the bloodrite so they can save themselves even though she is injured , knows the illyrian brutes are closing in on her ... so basically she was ready to sacrifice herself again. What about this character spells evil is beyond my comprehension . It's basically a narrative born out of a ship war and not based on Canon info.
About Mor and Az I have only been here a year so I am not sure but they were and are extremely nasty towards Elucien shippers. They basically bullied them out of the fandom its only in the past year that Eluciens are all being more active again.
If you are new here, I would highly suggest blocking content that you don't want to see . I basically jumped into the dumpster that is the E*riel tag and blocked most of them on there, and it's been totally worth it . If you dwell too much into the toxic side of the fandom, you are going to struggle ... I suggest enjoying the positive content and ignoring the rest as much as you can because why should we let someone else rob the joy out our interests.
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crazymaxinezzx · 1 year
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ACOTAR theories are my absolute favorite to talk about, so I will be discussing one of my favorite but also one of the more underrated/unknown ones.
Is Gwyneth a Lightsinger?
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Is Gwyneth Evil or will she become Evil?
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So we all know Gwyn is ¼ river-nymph, and so was her sister. But Gwyn shows some signs of being a Lightsinger.
One, it would be so perfect because she and Azriel would be complete opposites. But thats not a sign. River-nymphs obviously live in bodies of water and Lightsingers come from bogs.
Lightsingers also:
Appear as friendly faces when their prey is lost in the bog
Drown their victim
Lure them into the water
They do this for fun.
Now, we know that Gwyn loves singing and that when she does, her skin starts glowing a little. Idk about you but I immediately thought of sirens (who, by the way, lure their victims under the water and drown them) or it might have had something to do with her river-nymph blood.
But what if she isn't a river-nymph?
Her hands aren't webbed like her twin sister's, and they don't look like each other at all.
I know that the 'evidence' is all over the place. I get that most people will just think 'oh, okay, nice' and move on. But if I could word it better I would. I really want you all to understand what I'm saying.
2nd theory:
Are there Gods & Goddesses in Prythian?
We all know Helion and Theia are 100% mythology names, and they are both Gods. Helena is rumored to be Selene, Theia's second daughter (in Greek Mythology) and the second sister is said to be Eos. Then you have Feyre, Nesta and Elain who could be the three fates. Next up is The Morrigan who might not be a Greek one but is still a Goddess.
Is this cross-over possible?
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huntsphury · 10 days
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Some acotar theories I dislike
These theories are not crack, they're more close to canon, because where is the fun on discussing impossible things? (Like tamlin×elain, for example.)
I hate the ideia of Elain or Nesta becoming high ladies. They have never displayed any kind of leadership characteristics. Especially Nesta, who always lets her temper get in the way (and I love her for that.) This is not to hate on the sisters in any way. Cassian and Azriel wouldn't fit as rulers, too. Neither would Bryce, a character I adore, which is why I liked her ending in hofas. But each Archeron sister must find her own *different* path. I really like the whole "rulers, warriors, spies" concept.
I hate the theory that Vassa will become fae. First, it's mostly made by elriels who don't really care about Lucien but pretend to like vassien, which is probably what bothers me most, as a vassien stan. I want Vassa to become immortal, but the thing about her is that she is a *human queen*. That's important. She is NOT becoming fae. Maybe her curse can make her immortal, like we've seen in hofas. Maybe she will steal koschei's immortally. Maybe Lucien will tie his life to hers. Who knows.
Azriel being related to Rhys. Many people think he is Rhysand's half brother. I hate this theory because it makes no sense, specially for readers who are not 100% engaged in the fandom. It's not something we could've picked up in the books. Also, that would exclude Cassian and make elriel's book too much about Azriel for my taste. Elain should be the main focus. Also, we already have a father revelation with Lucien (maybe Gwyn). Sarah is not making a third one.
Evil Gwyn. As much absurd as it seems, I only put it here because some people think that she being a lightsinger automatically means she's not to trust. Sarah has made it kinda obvious on that interview when she called people who think she's a lightsinger "careful readers". Does that mean Gwyn is bad? No! She probably doesn't even know about her powers. And her story is so powerful. The WORST thing Sjm could do on her books would be to create a whole plotline about a beloved female character healing from SA just to turn her into a manipulative evil being who is luring everyone. I would literally never read any sjm book after that.
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yazthebookish · 8 months
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There's a difference between wanting Gwyn to be a more multi-layered character (which doesn't necessarily mean she has to be evil or deeply flawed e.g., Yrene, Elide, etc) whose journey is to overcome her obstacles and show what a resilient character she is like all SJM heroines.
Vs.
Villainize her in the name of "adding complexity and different layers to a character" but her main role would be a plot device used to keep apart two lovebirds, rather than it be a journey of her overcoming her "so-called flaws and darker side" becauee she's just that—a plot device. It doesn't benefit her character at all no matter how you look at it.
So tell me which one genuinely benefits her own arc if people are so eager for her to face challenges and master whatever power she has and to make her as flawed as possible?
Doesn't this whole "luring argument" stem from the fact that she was in Azriel's bonus chapter? Azriel having a positive interactions with her? The slight romantic coding at the end of the chapter?
Although I'm not a fan of the Lightsinger theory because where the canon stands they're nothing but monsters (who knows if she'll elaborate more on those creatures or not)—but the arguments I read from the few Gwynriels who support this theory (a different version from the villain one), they provide much more compelling arguments and theories because the outcome is how to overcome that power, how to be in control, how to not let it define you, and all of that benefits Gwyn's journey alone, no one else.
This series is a romance and I read it for the romance but I also love those healing journeys Sarah writes for these characters regardless of their background and history. I'm by no means an expert in Sarah's writing style or storytelling, but as an avid reader of her books I have faith that she will do all these characters justice, including Gwyn. I always depend on Sarah on writing the most beautiful healing journeys for them alongside a sizzling romance.
And people don't get this... readers can still love Gwyn even if she had a monstrous or darker side. Lidia "The Hind" has so much blood in her hands. Manon has so much blood in her hands. Aelin has so much blood in her hands. Nesta was literally Death. Yet all these characters we managed to love because the author made us love them regardless of their bloody and dark past. They still have love interests who loved them and accepted their past.
Azriel did fucked up shit, would you really think he of all people would judge and resent Gwyn if she had a darker or monstrous side? Would it deter him? He did worse than what we already know.
Sometimes the discussions around Gwyn just strip her of everything we know about her from the canon text because it becomes easier to taint her intentions and actions.
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I need to get this off my chest.
I am never going to understand how some people can hate a character solemnly based on a ship (canon or non-canon). To hate a character, you need real reasons, and not some made-up, outrageous theories. That’s why I am never going to tolerate a Gwyn anti.
Screw the ship war, frankly I don’t even care who ends up with who as long as everyone is happy. This is strictly about Gwyn as a character, and that some people took one amazingly written character - who would sacrifice herself to no end for the ones she loves, who suffered so much and yet found the strength to keep going and heal - and made her seem like some horrible, evil lightsinger is astounding. To see people mock Gwyn, hate her and call her horrible names just because they feel like she is a threat to their ship - what the hell? There is no canonic reason to hate on Gwyn. Not a single one. If those people didn’t feel like their ship was sinking, they’d love Gwyn. Because, again, there is nothing to hate at her.
If only people were mature enough to realize there is more to a character than their (possible) love interest. Gwyn is so much more than just Azriel’s possible LI. She does not need him or any LI to have people curious about her or love her. She is amazing, truly an inspiration, and I am looking forward to seeing more of her character. I want her happiness and if Sarah is going to make her go through unnecessary suffering, I’ll riot.
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Everything was on point. I still can't believe some people hate her only because of a ship war. I mean??? She's exceptional, and, as you said, she is more than a love interest.
I, most importantly, love Gwyn. I love her so much more than I love Gwynriel (you know I adore them, but Gwyn is, to me, on another level). No matter what ship will be canon, I care about her happiness and I want to see more of her.
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heyovivi · 3 years
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You know this week I’ve heard a lot of outlandish theories and arguments against Gwynriel, against Gwyn, and even against Lucien. And obviously it comes from mostly Elriel stans--not ALL of them, but goddamn a large number of them. I can appreciate having your own views on certain characters and certain ships but goddamn at least maintain your humanity and some part of a moral compass. 
First of all, we shouldn’t accuse SJM on writing or promoting pedophilia in her books. The theory that Gwyn is a child is completely invalid. She is twenty-eight and she was sexually assaulted when she twenty-six. Just because she ages differently doesn’t negate the fact that she is still an adult--and if you’ve seen any fan art or read an canon description of her you should know that she is an adult--both Azriel and her are adults and if you’re an Elriel stan trying to convince me otherwise just know Elain is younger than Gwyn. Feyre was nineteen when she fell in love with Tamlin. And Aelin was eighteen when she started to fall in love with Rowan. If there is anything, Gwyn and Azriel is one of thee most realistic ships that I’ve seen so far in the book series. 
So what if Gwyn is a little childish. She isn’t the only one. In ACOSF we’ve seen childish sides from Nesta AND Emerie. That’s how a close circle of friends works and if you don’t think there are childish adults out there who are youthful and overall just chipper people than you honestly have never met Disney adults. Plus Mor is the same age as Rhys and yet also has her own childish tendencies. Hell, even the Bat Bois have their moments. 
Gwyn is a playful person with a cheerful personality. Just because she sings and dances and comes off as a curious soul doesn’t mean she isn’t as mature as other characters in the series. In fact, I think it solidifies that Gwyn’s story is a parallel to the Little Mermaid because who else do we know that likes to sing, wants to dance “on those things called feet”, and is also a curious soul? 
Next. I don't know who thought having friendship bracelets was stupid or unnecessary because clearly that anti didn’t read the book and didn’t realize that those bracelets were a *fundamental part of the Valkyries surviving the Blood Rite. Without them they wouldn’t have found each other or maybe not even survived the Rite at all. And plus, Nesta, Emerie and Gwyn are chosen sisters. Making the bracelets was something Gwyn and Catrin did in Sangravah as a symbol of their unity. The fact that Gwyn decided to share that part of her with Nesta and Emerie speaks volumes of her relationship and feelings towards them. 
Also, comparing Gwyn to Ianthe. I’m sorry, Gwyn is a sexual assault victim. Ianthe is the assaulter. Not only has she assaulted Lucien, she attempted to assault Azriel. Just because they have the same color eyes doesn’t mean ANYTHING. By that pathetic and stupid logic your telling me everyone with teal eyes is evil. Then I guess Elain is evil and is going abuse her children when she’s a mother because who else has brown eyes. Beron has brown eyes. He abuses his children and is also a tyrant. OH who also portrays these exact same traits? Keirs does. Morrigan’s father. Who also has brown eyes. 
Now doesn’t that just sound so incredibly stupid? 
Now, I will say that Gwyn being a lightsinger does make sense in it’s own form. But do I think SJM is going to make her a character who lures males with her feminine whiles and voice to ultimately kill them in end? No. Gosh no. In what world would she think it’s okay to make the victim the assaulter. If you’re going to make an evil-Gwyn theory make it make sense and give me actual textual evidence that can’t be overruled by other textual evidence. 
Lastly, the theory that Gwyn and Lucien are invalid love interests because they are both redheads is just absolutely--like what in the fuckery shit hole head canon hell did that come from? Do gingers not deserve all in the love in the world as well? Is Lucien also not a victim in his own right? Does his story not deserve to be told? 
Lucien has made mistakes. He has even owned up to them and apologized and now he works everyday to make up for what he did by acting as an Emissary to the Night Court. And everything he does for Elain is everything everyone should be wanting from a partner in their life. Yes, he yearns for her. Yes, he is protective. But he is still a respectful king. He lets her have her own boundaries. Gives her space and doesn’t enforce anything on her. Do I like the idea of Elucien? Honestly no. Until I see a little bit more spice and chemistry between them then I will reassert my position (although I do like the idea of the whole fox and fawn theory). 
Guys, keep your humanity in tact. And think before you post. Actually read the words your about to write before you post. I have no doubt that whatever route SJM takes, it’s going to be written beautifully. That goes for Elucien, Gwynriel, and Elriel. 
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daisybrekker · 3 years
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Debunking Gwynriel and Anti-Elriel Theories
Gwyn and Azriel are mates!
Sorry but no. Firstly, we already have so many mating bonds in the series and if SJM added more it would just be too much (Especially as mating bonds are supposed to be rare!) We already have:
Feyre and Rhysand
Nesta and Cassian
Elain and Lucien
Viviane and Kallias
Rhysand's Parents
Tamlin's Parents
And I know it can take time for the bond to snap but Azriel has already seen Gwyn in extreme danger TWICE and nothing happened. First when he found her after she experienced SA and then when he was more concerned about Eris, someone he hates, than her... After that kind of trauma, I'd expect it to snap but it didn't so🤷‍♀️
His shadows sung to her so there's something there!
With that kind of logic I guess you could say that there must be something between Nesta and Gwyn considering how she reacted to her too...
Nesta:
"The priestess drew up to her full height, which wa slightly taller than average for Fae females. A crackling sort of energy buzzed around her, and Nesta's power grumbled in answer."
Azriel:
"Azriel entered the warmth of the stairwell, and as he descended, he could have sworn a faint, beautiful singing followed him. Could have sworn his shadows sang in answer."
Personally, I believe that she might be a lightsinger and is maybe somehow evil OR she has powers that she's not aware of. Now, I've heard how many Gwyn stans hate the theory that she might be evil, working with Koschei, etc. and how that's disgusting because we can't suggest that an SA survivor would do something like that but I feel like this post by @juusworld5728 describes how I feel about this perfectly so go have a read!
There's also plenty of evidence that Gwyn may not be who we think she is or that she's hiding something.
"Gwyn's hair seemed to glow brighter with her song, skin radiating a beckoning light. Drawing any listener in."
Firstly, can we talk about the use of "beckoning"? Here are the literal definitions of the word:
To make a gesture with the hand, arm, or head to encourage or instruct someone to approach or follow.
To summon (someone) by beckoning to them.
To appear attractive or inviting
We even have Azriel at the end of his POV questioning himself, why could he perfectly picture Gwyn's reaction to the necklace. - "For whatever reason...He could see it."
What if Gwyn is working her powers on him, making him think about her, appearing as attractive to his shadows. Why else would SJM use such words?
Then we have the "Drawing any listener in" part. As we saw previously, Nesta also was lured in by Gwyn. This also confirms this:
"Gwyn's voice rose again, holding such a high note it was like a ray of pure light, piercing and summoning."
We have the word choice of "summoning" like Gwyn was calling out to Nesta, JUST like with Azriel.
Then we also have the matter of fact about what we already know about lightsingers and I feel like this post by @silverlinedeyes describes my thoughts perfectly too! (Keep in mind, this isn't us comparing Gwyn to Ianthe as they're not the same at all but the parallels between the descriptions SJM has used for each.)
Gwyn will kill Elain
No. Just no. Do you really think one of Nesta's closest friends would kill her own sister? (Especially the one that she's been doting over for most of her life) Even if Elain somehow turned out to be evil (which I highly doubt) Nesta would never let her sister get killed. As for Feyre, she'd do anything to somehow help Elain. Besides, SJM has literally said that if a character from ACOTAR was to be her best friend, it would be Elain. She clearly loves her so why would she kill her off?
Gwyn has pliant bones so she can have Azriel's children
I think the full Elriel fandom has emphasised how wrong this theory is so I won't talk much about it because if you still believe in this, then that's just disgusting.
But, can we keep in mind that when Cassian asked Azriel about having children he said "It doesn't matter what I want". What if Azriel can't even have children in first place? We know his half-brothers have physically harmed him in the past so what if they did something to make him sterile? Maybe that's why he won't let himself to think about children? Elriel could have the perfect opportunity to adopt, especially considering SJM herself is adopted.
Gwynriel and Vucien will happen so that Elain will be with Tamlin or alone
Firstly, SJM confirmed we already know Elain's official love interest so she'll definitely not end up alone.
Secondly, Elain would never be with her sister's abuser... Even if Tamlin got a redemption arc, one book is too little for SJM to write all of this:
Tamlin's Redemption Arc
Elain and Azriel moving past their mutual attraction
Elain and Lucien breaking the bond
Elain and Tamlin then somehow getting together
It just won't make sense! And also, Tamlin does somehow in his own way care about Lucien, would he really get with his closest companion's mate?
Elain is evil and working with Graysen
So people have being saying that Elain is still in contact with Graysen and working with him against the IC since she mentioned a couple times how she wants a human man, not a male, etc.
It's NATURAL for Elain to mourn the loss of her normal life. Of course she'd be upset and frustrated since she basically had it all ripped from her. Moreover, all her life she's been told horrible things about Fae and despite the fact that Feyre has become one, obviously she'd still be wary of them.
Then we also have some readers saying that Elain must be evil since she doesn't seem to miss Graysen anymore. Well yeah? The events of ACOWAR happened when she was 21/22 and ACOSF when she was 24/25. She's had 3 years to deal with this, it's called progress and moving on.
Since Azriel is so overprotective over Elain and not Gwyn, he believes Elain can't handle herself but Gwyn can
This one makes me giggle a bit because what?? We have seen so many instances in SJM writing where the male LI is overprotective over his girl, yet they still know she knows how to defend herself. Examples:
Sam over Celaena
Rowan over Aelin
Chaol over Yrene
Lorcan over Elide
Rhysand over Feyre
It's obvious a guy would feel the need to defend his lover so it's not the fact that he thinks she can't handle herself. He feels the need to protect her because he cares about her.
3 Sisters with 3 Brothers is such a cliché!
Ah yes, so all the mating bonds present in ACOTAR being complete wouldn't be a cliché? (Cause let's be honest, if Azriel somehow isn't Elain's endgame then it has to be Lucien cause who else? Yet that wouldn't make sense)
Next book is Azriel's with Gwyn as his LI
We know that we have 2 books left and a novella so I suspect it'll go like this - ACOTAR5 = Elriel, ACOTAR6 = Vucien + Jurian and NOVELLA = Emorie
Gwyn has nothing to do with the overall plot of ACOTAR with Koschei. Elriel's book would probably be focused on The Prison and Elain working with her Seer powers along Azriel as a spy. Vucien's book would probably end the series with them somehow defeating Koschei. The novella would develop Emorie and some other plotlines further. Where does Gwyn fit? Nowhere.
Why would SJM give a side character she just introduced, a book when we have more interesting characters to go over from the start (Elain, Lucien, Vassa, Jurian, Mor, maybe Amren?)
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tovelarisdreams · 3 years
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Hi! I saw your comments in a recent post where a gwynriel asked why people thought gwyn is a lightsinger and I felt compelled to reach out to you to say I AGREE and I am so sorry for the hostility you were shown for your completely justified (and non-combative) comments.
There are a few points that I wanted to make that I don’t think gwynriels understand.
1. A lot of people think gwyn is a lightsinger because of the possible foreshadowing techniques that Sarah implemented in ACOSF. Bringing up lightsingers so casually and then describing gwyn’s singing and breath and the reactions other had to both of those in the way she did is curious to say the least. Although it’s not confirmed, it is an interesting theory.
2. IF gwyn is a lightsinger, it does not mean she is evil! The most popular theory I’ve seen is that she doesn’t understand her powers and is possibly being unwillingly controlled by Merrill (who I think we can all agree is a little sus). Yes, there may be some people who want gwyn to be knowingly evil, much like many more gwynriels who want elain to turn evil just for the sake of getting her out of the picture. But the majority of elriels I’ve seen and interacted with are more supportive of the possible “Merrill abusing gwyn’s powers” theory since we all know that gwyn is canonically kind.
3. Gwyn possibly being a lightsinger is in NO WAY tied to her being an SA survivor. It is the same way that Rhys being able to casually mist people and Nesta being able to literally disintegrate the Queen with her powers have nothing to do with their being SA survivors. When gwynriels say that elriels are “attacking gwyn because she is in SA survivor” just because elriels suggest gwyn might have lightsinger powers blows my mind. And they say that “real life SA survivors are hurt by these theories” - why? I don’t like to talk about my own history but I myself am an SA survivor and in no way do I think that saying gwyn might have lightsinger powers (or even saying she could be evil- not that many are saying that) has ANYTHING to do with her SA history. I equate this with all of the hate nesta and Rhys consistently have gotten over the years. The way gwynriels are using gwyn’s SA history as a reason to dispel theories they do not like is akin to an anti-Nesta saying “nesta is rude and I don’t like her” and then someone saying “you are an awful human being for not liking her because she’s an SA survivor. You obviously do not support SA victims at all. How dare you not like nesta”. A character is not solely defined by their history with SA. And their SA is not inherently tied to every other aspect about them. IF gwyn is a lightsinger (and IF she uses her powers knowingly or unknowingly) that has NOTHING to do with her being an SA survivor.
I am just so tired of gwynriels trying to twist elriels’ words to make them out to be villains. No elriel I have seen on tumblr has ever said anything negative about gwyn’s SA history. If anyone were to attack her for that specifically, yeah, they should called out for that because that is messed up. But people need to stop assuming that everything said about gwyn is somehow tied to her being an SA survivor. That is a part of who she is unfortunately but that is not ALL she is and when gwynriels are constantly using that to combat theories they do not like, they are reducing her to her SA and THAT is what is the most messed up. Gwyn is so much more than her SA and she, as well as every SA survivor in real life, deserves the respect of being treated like they are a human being and more than their SA.
Sorry for this long post but I saw your comments and they were completely in-line with my beliefs as well and I wanted to show my support for you.
Heyyy! Thank u so much. That little "debate" left me a little shaken, to be honest. It became a real trigger, really fast.
Lets talk abou the point:
1) The lightsinger theory for me is one of the best ones. I've been saying this from the begging, Gwyn needs to have a important role next book. Yes, The book is Elain's. But Elain will get the sub plot with her Love interest like Nessian did. Gwyn's role, i believe, is realted to the bigger plot. Sarah described her singing for some reason, and its show to affect Nestha in ACOSF.
2) YES! I do not want Gwyn to be evil, and don't believe she will. Her being manipulated by Merril is a great plot. Cause that woman is weird lol. I understand why gwynriels get so mad about, cause this theory eliminates the romantic aspect of Gwyn's voice on Az. But a theory is a theory, and this one makes a lot of sense with what Sjm left as hints in ACOSF. And what u say is true. The make so many Evil elain theory, not only that but they portrait elain in a very evil, manipulative manners. They think that is super ok, but make on sigle theory about precious gwyn and they go crazy.
3) This is the worst part for me. They use a very serious real life thing, for a petty reason. There is no excuse for using SA as a argument to solidify book theorys. And they use for ANYTHING. Anyone say anything about gwyn, a they come boiling with rage saying u are being toxic and not respecting her trauma. Withou realizing that they are attacking REAL LIFE SA SURVIVORS. Its ridiculous. The Lightsinger theory has nothing to do with what gwyn suffered. Nothing. Most theories doens't. I've been in this fandom for a while, and not once have i seen anyone say anything rude about her in that manner.
The problem is: Their shipp doesn't have solid theories. They have some conversations along ACOSF that show no more than a friendly interaction. And then, the famous extra chapter. The problem with the extra chapter is: what happens there cannot have more power than what happens in regular chapter. That's why i say that the necklace wont be a major issue next book. Even of we decide to take what happens there as important, what do we really have ? Az talks to gwyn and helps her with her training. Then, goes to the library and give CLOTHO (not gwyn) the necklace for her to deliver, but he also say for her to give to any other pristess, if not gwyn. Also, says he does nto consider her a friend. What i take from it is: Azriel is the link between Gwyn and next book. Like i said before, she has a role next book but nothing ties her to elain. We need a link there. And that setence about their friendship, for me, its the hint left behind.
The way i see it, we dont have romantic fellings or interaction there. Only hints to bring her back next book. And talking about elriel in his pov. For elriel, we have the extra step. It says it right there, they never dared do anything other than touching hands and stealing glances. The invisible line they created, almost crossed. But stopped by rhys. Why ?
1) Tell me one author that is dumb enough to make a shipp canon on a extra chapter ? Yes, that kiss couldn't happen there. (Thank u Rhys)
2) Who doens't love a proibited romance ? Rhys order just gave us the best hint for the sub plot of elain's book. Along with some intersting drama between the charaters. (Again, Thank u Rhys)
In the end, sjm got a lot of marketing with that extra chapter too. Azriel is a fan favorite and she knew we were all waiting on that pov. Its a lot a marketing there too.
And Thank u for showinh your support! I love it ! As u can see, i have a lot a thoughts on Elriel hahaha
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