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klug · 18 days

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So Puyo Puyo Puzzle Pop is out and I see a lot of theories going around… This is half a self-indulgent post for me and half a poorly thrown together essay reviewing Sig and Aya's and the blue soul and the crimson soul's, relationship to each other. because boy is it a bit of a complex web. @_@

Some people were talking about their relationship today in EPPC, and I'm bad at talking to people, so I decided to put my thoughts in a post + touch on some misconceptions (I guess?) around since the game just came out and it relies on knowing information presented in extra material like the audio dramas and the (sega) novels.

And of course, spoilers for the first 4 main routes of Puzzle Pop.

some quick bullet points before I start… you can skip this if youre fairly familiar with fever 2, tetris 2, and the novels

is Aya possessing Sig?!

how did Sig's power get unleashed by Meena? are they super ultra powerful??

no, Aya is clearly still imprisoned safely contained in the tome of sealing, so it probably isn't behind this. We also know in Lidelle's route that it and Klug were having some kind of argument after he ran into Sig.

Well, in the game, Lemres establishes that Meena normally is not that powerful… Rather, it's been a bit implied over the course of the games that his powers have been growing stronger, so I think that it's more that Meena broke down a dam that was already barely holding itself together… a brief timeline…

Puyo Puyo Fever 2 - Sig transfers to Primp Magic School and his hand suddenly turns red. This can presumably be linked to his proximity to the tome of sealing. Akuma attempts to prevent further resonation by using the Ito Hairito enchantment. Attempts at "curing" his hand are touched on in Puyo Puyo! 15th Anniversary

Sig's Secret happens a bit before Puyo Puyo!! 20th Anniversary, and he has the incident of his powers being awakened by Witch's potion. This is the first time we actually see the "Demon part" of him take over, and it turned both of his eyes red when this happened. (src)

Puyo Puyo Tetris 2 - Sig and Klug are protected by a certain power from being influenced by Marle when she's causing mayhem in Primp Town. The crimson spirit was potentially protecting Klug in this situation, but what about Sig? I theorize that his own demon powers, which have been growing stronger, actually protected him as well. (Lemres' substory, PPT2)

Puyo Puyo Puzzle Pop - Sig befriends Meena and offers to share some of his power. This seems to open the floodgates and allow the demon parts of him to take over.

fun fact: The words for "arm" and "hand" are the same in Japanese, so a lot of fans were actually surprised when they saw that his entire arm is red and not just his hand when his art in 20th came out.

Now, with those bullet points out of the way… the meat of this post is focusing more on Sig and Aya/Strange Klug/Possessed Klug/Crimson Spirit/Whatever name you want to call its relationship.

I think most people take the text in the games at face value, though the editing choices in translation don't really help I guess...the first instance of "red power" being translated as "evil power" will never be forgiven, but it's okay since Lemres and Schezo get it right--. I see a lot of people think that Aya is somehow influencing Sig in this story, but it has been established that Sig has the potential to tap into the full power that Aya probably wants access back to in Sig's Secret when Witch's power potion spills on him.

Back then, Sig and Amitie's friendship, and really any of his friendships, weren't very well-defined. However, she was able to bring him back by reminding him of their friendship...

Hey, Sig! …Let’s go back to café prep, alright!? I mean, Raffina’s gonna be super mad if you don’t show up! And then Klug’s gonna go all sarcastic on you again! Do you want that!? And, and, we haven’t even figured out what to put on the menu for our Special yet! If you really want me to, I’ll let you put whipped cream, for real!” I just kept screaming one thing after another as it came to me. Please, please, please… Please, let Sig hear my voice! “Please, come back to us! I promise, we all love you, so, so much! And I know, I know that deep inside, you really, really want to stay with us, too…!”

(src)

He manages to regain control of himself though clearly Amitie reminding him of everything isn't working in Puzzle Pop.

I kind of resummarized the climax of Sig's Secret because it felt important to contextualize his behavior, how its different in Puzzle Pop, and how people tend to conclude that "he must be possessed by Aya" as the first thought in Puzzle Pop. I also did this, though it was because I watched the routes out of order (lol). The behavior of this not!Sig is reckless, power-hungry, very very very gloating (just read the novel), and doesn't see any importance in friendships when it comes to Amitie and Meena (Lemres' route in Puzzle Pop). Meanwhile Aya, who has a very clear outlined goal of getting Sig back is…generally levelheaded, calm, and although angry about its situation, doesn't always charge straight for Sig whenever it's unsealed ("Amitie and Lidelle's Primp Tour", Puyo Puyo!! Quest story mode, etc.) So I think the binary the game presents of Aya being "evil" and Sig being "not evil" is not necessarily true considering how unreliable the narration of the "tome of sealing" is. I find it more accurate to say that they're power/impulse and control/logic, or you could argue they're a conscious and an unconscious.

I theorize that a piece of their original power lies dormant in Sig, and it is this power that Aya specifically wants back because it's…pretty powerless in its current form. This power, possibly the "crimson power", drives the "blue soul" in Sig a bit power hungry when its unleashed, and it has no conscious to control it because the "crimson soul" isn't in the vessel. I also think Sig and the "blue soul" are separate entities to an extent.

“Stop talking… Be quiet, just shut up! Gh… With every word you say, the voice in my head, it…GAAAAHHHH…!” “A voice, in your head? T-That’s gotta be Sig! Hey!! Sig!! If you can hear me, say something!”

(src)

The best comparison I have to this situation is Cinderpelt's reincarnation into Cinderheart in the book series Warriors. Cinderheart inherited Cinderpelt's soul after the latter's death, but because Cinderheart's grown to have her own experiences and is a separate entity while Cinderpelt lay dormant in their mind, they will separate in death. I think this "copilot"-ish situation is the case with Sig and it's why they're vying for control a second time in Puyo Puyo Puzzle Pop.

I think that's why not!Sig is so "evil" and also gives people the impression that it might be Aya -- considering I also thought this -- though it's probably not the case since this story follows a similar formula to Sig's Secret with some tweaks to reflect a lot of subtle character growth, which is the subject of the next section.

Now, people might ask…why aren't Sig's eyes red and his hair dark like they were in Sig's Secret? Well, I think this is due to texture limitations for one, but I also think this is a sign of Sig's personal identity growing stronger over the course of the games. He has relationships he wants to hold onto, his own experiences, his own life, so he wouldn't just easily give up control of his physical vessel, even if he hasn't been speaking as himself in Puzzle Pop so far… This story's already done a lot with establishing Sig as a character and the importance of his relationship with Amitie, and he hasn't even actually spoken, which I find impressive. I also just like that all this stuff is only clear if you pay attention to the steady build up of the stories from the past few years… well, they were just breadcrumbs, I guess...Listen I've been following this plotline for 7-8 years and its been in the works for like 13? So you have to forgive me for feeling happy about having all the pieces of the puzzle.

As for what this means for the role Aya/the crimson spirit will play in the story… I'm not sure. I honestly don't expect it to appear at all since all the models/animations are recycled from Puyo Puyo Chronicle with some touch ups save for Meena. It has been referenced though, and the profiles in-game go in-depth on who it was and is, but I can't say if it'll actually make a fully story appearance…Especially since Klug was relegated to a side story role. Which is fine, I don't really care despite my URL. it was a good story. I do however expect this story to shed a lot of light on the relationship between the Sig, blue soul, and the crimson soul once its complete. I haven't even touched on my personal interpretation of Amitie and her hat, so maybe I'll make another post about that in the future? I think her situation is meant to parallel Sig's, but I'll save that for another time if people are interested...

As usual some of this is my interpretation, but everything I sourced is real and true and I'd never lie to you, etc.

Misc. Fun Stuff

These were things I liked about Aya and Sig's imagery/motifs but I wasn't able to fit into the post concisely.

not!Sig uses the same pronouns as Aya, 我 (wa) and お前 (omae), though they're written in hiragana as opposed to Aya's kanji. This is actually why I thought he was possessed because I walked into a stream in the middle of Ringo's route, haha.

My theory of Aya and Sig being a conscious and an unconscious are actually inspired by one of Aya's spells anima. Now in Latin this really just means "soul" which is fine, but in Jungian psychology the anima and animus are a dualistic archetype…which is cool, though this would potentially mean the crimson spirit is the unconscious part, haha! Technically they'd align more with Freud's concept of an id and a superego as I explained them, but I always like pointing out the possible Jungian reading of Aya's spell Yes, I realize I'm grasping for straws

#ramblings #puyo puyo #anywya feel free to send e lovemail for this . or hatemail if that's more your style #pypy lore

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welshoot · 3 months

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Twisted Wonderland and The Black Cauldron

This theory honestly seemed so far-fetched when I first came up with it before Twisted Wonderland got localized, but I felt like writing this so here we are.

There might just be a connection between Twisted Wonderland and The Black Cauldron (film or novel). Before I get into the wild theorizing/analysis I would like to say that this post will contain major spoilers for the book and film of The Black Cauldron as well as for Twisted Wonderland, so proceed at your own risk. Also, this is going to be very long, so be forewarned

This entire theory comes completely from this image:

This is the mirror chamber from Twisted Wonderland, a room we seem to keep coming back to in terms of potential lore importance. I don’t really know why, but when I saw this image for the first time my mind immediately flew back to this:

I guess it’s something about the green stuff coming out the thing up top that reminds me of the titular black cauldron from one of Disney’s worst performing films, The Black Cauldron (1985).

Now, The Black Cauldron (1985) is a bit of a dark spot on the history of Disney’s animated movies. All in all, it is generally forgotten and most everyone likes to pretend it doesn’t exist because of how poorly it performed when it came out compared to the amount of money Disney sank into it (at a $44 million it cost more than $40 million budget of The Little Mermaid [1989]). But, notably, The Black Cauldron (1985) also contains one of Disney’s most terrifying villains. The Horned King.

Now, if you’ve never seen the movie or read the book, the Horned King intended to use the titular black cauldron to unleash an undead, immortal army and intends to become “A god between mortal men” (quote from the disney wiki page for the man himself). Interestingly, considering he’s wanting to amass an undead army, the Horned King is quite skeletal himself. Outside of that, there is very little known about this character. He is very mysterious, very evil, and is implied to have magical powers though he hardly ever uses them. An additional point of interest for the sake of this theory is the fact that the castle of the Horned King is in horrible shape. Sort of ramshackle if you will.

The film version of this villain is very different from the book version. The book version is not the primary antagonist, rather he is the antagonist's champion warrior until death. With that said though, he is still quite ominous. No one knows his name and his title comes from the horned mask he wears. In the book he doesn’t seem quite human and is rather bestial. Another potentially interesting point is that, in the film, his goons are identical to Maleficent's and he is connected to dragons.

Now, for this theory, the Horned King may or may not come into play, but the black cauldron itself is important. In both the book and the movie, the only way to destroy the black cauldron (and it is evil and needs to be destroyed so that the undead/immortal army can’t be made) is for a willing sacrifice to go into it and die. While in the movie, the sacrifice is saved this is not the case in the book.

Now, the whole undead immortal army thing makes me wonder about the overblot monsters. We know from Ignihyde that the blot monsters can exist after the death of their host which makes them a sort of undead immortal monster. They also seem to be wholly obsessed with magic, and the magic mirror of NRC is suggested to be incredibly unique and very magical. So, if the green thingie under the mirror is the cauldron, it might be possible that the overblots are happening to form an undead/immortal army that will obey whoever holds that mirror simply because they themselves want the magical power of the mirror. In such a case, the only way to stop such an army would be to destroy the cauldron (i.e. give it a willing sacrifice). The only question is, who?

In the Disney film, the willing sacrifice (who was brought back to life because it is a kid’s move, albeit a sort of creepy one) was Gurgi. He sacrificed himself so that the protagonist (Taran) wouldn’t sacrifice himself to save his friends. Gurgi was, simply put, an ever hungry, greedy about food, cowardly, and cheerful but annoying sidekick to the lead. It’s never really explained what, exactly, Gurgi is but h had blue eyes and was small and fluffy. Here’s a picture:

Now, we have to consider Grim here. Small animal companion, constantly hungry and greedy for food, fairly cheerful but with a penchant for being annoying, has blue eyes, and we don’t really know what he is. If the theory that each character in Twisted Wonderland has two inspirations (one heroic and one villainous) is true, then Gurgi may very well be part of Grim’s inspiration. And if that’s the case he would be a likely candidate for the willing sacrifice. If that is the case, the situation would probably have something to do with stopping the Prefect from sacrificing themselves (or something).

In the book version of things the sacrifice is the jerkish, second prince Ellidyr. He is not revived and he sacrifices himself as a way of making atonement. Character-wise, he is the edgy character for the book, though notably he is also a more complicated character for the series. He is also incredibly strong for unexplained reasons, has a deeply hidden sense of honor, and if he sets himself a goal he will see it through. And, as a final character note, he is the foil to the protagonist of the tale.

Now, Ellidyr’s character can match up with several different individuals in Twisted Wonderland, making it hard to say who any other potential willing sacrifice candidates might be. It could be Leona, a rather jerkish second prince, but he would need a specific reason. It could also be a tie-in to whoever’s hand the player took at the start of the game. However, there is one final option who is present simply due to the virtue of their placement in the story. The Prefect.

While everyone else has shades of villainy, the Prefect is implied to be the most upstanding person at NRC, though they may manipulate others if they feel forced (Octavinelle Chapter and forcing Leona’s hand into helping). As such, their position as outsider in a world with no identifiable way home and resident nice person does unfortunately put them squarely on the chopping block as a sacrifice. Especially since it is implied that they are becoming friends with the various characters at NRC.

There is also the idea of: does someone even want to create any army of overblot monsters? And, to be honest, I really don't even want to consider the implications of such a thing or go into to trying to figuring the who and why of that question, plus this post is already pretty long.

In the end, this is just a wild theory that I thought was rather intriguing since I personally think it would be very amusing if Twisted Wonderland made use of Disney’s black sheep movie in such a pivotal way for the plot. With that said, I highly doubt such a thing will come to pass, though I would find it incredibly amusing.

#Twisted wonderland #The black cauldron #Twst #Twisted wonderland theory #analysis #The black cauldron (1985)#Disney movie #Disney #theory #mywritings #The Black Cauldron book #Chronicles of Prydain #disney tw #The Horned King #Gurgi #Prefect

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emeraldmew · 2 months

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Hey, sis.

#also someone remind me to make my Cosmic Horror Toddler theory into something coherent

Whenever you have the time.

Okay. So bear in mind we're only like seven episodes in and I have no evidence and really no thought behind this beyond "would that be fucked up or what?" and "ooh I'd love to see what an eldritch abomination growing up is like."

There are also like, all of the spoilers for the original TMA below so like, if you're just listening to Protocol you might want to skip the rest of this post.

Tenuously connected point 1.

One of the things from what Jonny and Alex have said about Protocol is that it's supposed to involve exploring "what makes a person" right? And we also already know Jonny's answer to this question from his, uh, cannibalism discussion.

Short version: a "person" understands their actions as something that actually does things to the world around them beyond simply fulfilling a want like hunger/capable of choosing to do evil.

Tenuously connected point 2.

In the Archives universe, a point is made that the Fears "don't think. Not like we do." They work off instinct.

Tenuously connected point 3.

While I never looked into the ARG before Protocol's release I have since looked into the summaries of what it revealed. Among other things the ARG revealed Magnus Institute of Protocol was studying children via... psychological experiments of dubious morality. Aside from this being why Sam is snooping into the Magnus Institute (for those who haven't looked into the ARG yet, his name is among the children researched) the experiments are pretty much looking into how children at various stages of development display empathy and whether they conform to orders or choose not to and stuff like that (I'm sure I am not wording this part right someone with a better background in psychology can probably expand further).

Anyway, my point is the idea of choices and such is being studied in relation to psychological development in children.

Tenuously connected point 4.

The way the cases so far have played out in Protocol does seem to show a difference compared to Archives.

Smirke's original categories don't seem to fit quite right anymore as each of the cases seem to have stuff that doesn't cram into the original boxes. As the blurry categories were already a major point in TMA regarding creating the Eyepocalypse and even Sam calls out the categorization the OIAR use in the first episode this isn't surprising. But it does suggest that the Fears have changed from what they were before.

Quite a few people have also suggested that in the cases we've seen sometimes the incidents seem to fulfill a desire (in a monkey's paw way, of course) rather than simply finding a random victim. This might suggest the presence of intent rather than only instinct.

So what?

I'll admit it's just sort of my own "ooh wouldn't that be messed up? let's explore that further" thought process doing the talking here, but The Thing that was Fear has existed since things could feel afraid. It's ancient. But it's also a cosmic horror entity that has been shown to grow from it's initial state to what we saw in Archives (see ep 200).

It's something on a cosmic level. Maybe it wasn't done growing. The Fears don't think "like we do"...

but neither do babies.

What if by Protocol the Fears have developed more after leaving their cradle? To a point where they can at least begin to think or choose.

What if the Fears are eldritch toddlers and they're learning how to play?

#emeraldmew's red string theory of eldritch toddlers #the magnus archives #the magnus protocol #tma #tmagp #tmagp theory #spoilers #i mean i have no evidence beyond the fact that i personally would love to explore a cosmic horror's life cycle #also note that the theory only really touches on the Fears if you came here looking for theories about Chester & Norris you're out of luck #(unless they and Agustus are the nannies in this analogy)

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itisbop · 2 months

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And now... the moment you've all been waiting for (or not, which is fine)! Let's talk Brawl Talk because OH BOY am I excited.

This is gonna be a pretty long post, so bear with me! I'll go over one section at a time and go over what I liked and disliked. Spoilers ahead! If you haven't watched the latest Brawl Talk, go do so! One more reminder, these are just my thoughts! You don't have to agree with me!

Without further to do... let's talk!

New Brawlers (Angelo and Melodie)

Now, when I first saw Angelo, I immediately went, "HE'S UGLY LMAO." After getting used to him, though, he's actually not that bad. His design is really good and is somewhat of an anti-cupid (perfect for a gal like Willow). Also, his voice actor did such a good job so much energy was put into him.

He doesn't seem like he's gonna be incredibly busted, but he is gonna be good in the right hands (while I'm at it pay your respects to Mortis Mains ya'll, they just took a major l with this guy). Sorry Larry and Lawrie, but you two are gonna have to step aside, I NEED this man as much as I need the next brawler.

I. LOVE. MELODIE!!! I did think she was a League of Legends character at first, lol.

Apparently, I've heard people say she is the first female assassin, which is very interesting! Out of the two, I feel she poses more of a threat. She might be broken, though her main attack is WEAK.

I've been through the Reddit and have seen so many people talk about how she looks like Janet, and I'd like to take the time to bring up a little theory... what if she was Janet and Bonnie's mom? I would go into this further, but we have to keep going!

Overall, I really like these two! Their designs are really good, and the character designers did a great job! Their pins and profile pictures show SO much personality! Expect some art of these two soon! However, if I may say something, I wish their skins were cooler. Why couldn't Angelo have a Sands of Time skin too? 😭

Speaking of Sands of Time...

Sands of Time and Ragnorok + Skins

Out of both seasons, I'm very hyped for Sands of Time. The "Sands of Time" is a very interesting concept that can be used very creatively. Can't wait to see what the animation brings! Though I think we all know why I'm hyped...

My best guest was that this skin was gonna be a Epic/Mythic skin, but a LEGENDARY?????? WHAT?????? Chuck fans we just fucking WON. I've seen the sneak peaks and heard his voice lines, Nicolai did an INCREDIBLE job as always. I'm am SO READY to go broke for this skin, but first, I must purchase some seasonal skins since they've been on my agenda for a while.

Loki Chester has to be the one I'm looking forward to getting the most for the Ragnorok seasons/skins. Plus, it's free! (If you have good luck).

Side note and honorable mention, Thor Bibi was just the icing on the cake for Bibi Mains this update. While I feel like a few more details could be added for this skin to make in truly "legendary," everything else about it great, including the voice acting! Poor Bull, he's the only one in his yet to get a Legendary Skin.

Ranked and The Report System

Okay, not related, but I love how they disses on the community a bit in this section, LOL. They know what, at least Reddit and Twitter are doing (and let's keep it that way, they don't need to know what's going on over here lol).

Anyways, while I'm excited (and scared) for Ranked with modifiers I wanna take this time to talk about a concern... the report system...

Now, I know there's a reason why we have 10 reports; but what's gonna stop so angry guy from reporting me if I didn't do anything? I feel like there's a chance this could backfire, that's all.

Hypercharges and Balance Changes

No Mortis or Poco hypercharge :(

Cordelius was definitely unexpected and very scary. Getting slowed in the shadow realm is a death sentence.

I wish Belle got a little more this update, but I'll take the hypercharge.

Move over Charlie, there's a new spider person in town, and he's a DINOSAUR.

Onto to balance changes. 84???? GOD DAMN. Adrien wasn't fucking around this update. Edgar is dead (and rightfully so FUCK HIM) and Doug might actually stand a chance in this Meta. I'll miss the days when Hypercharges were game breaking just for the community's rage, but it's probably for the greater good.

Whatever the Fuck the Random Skins Were

Now Primo Shark, I can take (though I'm definitely not gonna be able to take Baby Shark as a in game theme, I'm muting music for that entire time period). Pitcher Fang is a good skin too. Squeaky note is very... meh, but it's a rare skin so you can't expect much.

BUT POOP SPIKE.

POOP SPIKE.

What

the

FUCK?

It was tolerable until I saw the losing animation, and to that, I say EWWWWWWWWWW 🤮🤮🤮. WHYYYYY!?!?!? THAT'S SO NASTY!!!

I get that this is an April Fool's skin, but WHYYY THAT??? Thank GOD this skin is expensive. If I catch any of you with this skin, I'm gonna need to ask if you're okay. I don't wanna show a picture of this skin to you all, or else I'm pretty sure Tumblr would kick me to the curve. This is easily what I was least excited for for this update.

Overall Rating and Final Thoughts

Now, it's time to throw the final ratings on screen and say anything else that's on my mind.

New Brawlers - 9.5/10, definitely getting both! Let's hope they get some cool skins soon!

Sands of Time - 7/10, the concept and Chuck carry this season don't fight me on this. /j

Ragnorok - 6.5/10, I'm not as hyped, but I will grind for that Chester skin!

Ranked - 8/10, now I have a reason to actually play this mode. Hopefully, the report system is fair enough...

Hypercharges - 6.5/10, again not as hype, but I will be snatching that Belle Hypercharge since she's the only one out of the 6 I maxed out. She deserved more, though. :(

Balance Changes - 10/10, bye Edgar begone. F for the twins, however; I liked them.

Random Stuff - 3/10, not even Pitched Fang can save us from whatever the devs were on.

Overall Season 24/25 is...

8/10! (Poop Spike ruined it >:( )

And that's it. For those who have read to the end, thank you so much for heating me ramble it means so much. Expect some headcanons and more little theories soon (as in some time this week). Until then, ciao!

#brawl stars #speak no eve vil #see no eve vil #doodle #all brawlers

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erikiara80 · 7 months

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A beautiful Byler-Polivia parallel, Will's truesight and other parallels with Fringe

I said I could make 50 posts after my rewatch of S4. I'm gonna start with the parallels with one of my favorite shows. Let's go! @lilitblaukatz

Olivia Dunham is Subject 13, and she has the ability to see and travel to the parallel world. In ST there are many mentions of number 13, and imo that's a hint that there are different timelines (not actual parallel worlds) and we've been seen them since the very first episode. In fact, Will mentions the number 13 in the first scene of the show.

Will-Olivia parallels

It was a seven. I read many theories about this moment and Mike's strange reaction. That maybe Will is in a Vecna vision, and that's why the lights flicker and "Mike" doesn't know what he is talking about.

Well, I think Vecna is spying Will; those eyes on the skis behing Mike! I think this detail proves that Will's abduction wasn't a coincidence.

But if this Mike is actually Vecna, shouldn't he know about the game and the Demogorgon? He can read minds, wouldn't he at least try to smile?

Then I remembered why this scene seemed familiar. It reminds me of a scene of Fringe, ep 3x15, when Olivia, who can't control her powers yet, travels to the parallel world and for a moment sees the other Dr Bishop, who is quite surprised by what she says.

(in 3x15 Olivia also meets Peter for the first time)

So, I don't know, maybe Will does have a Vecna vision later, at home. But when he talks to Mike, I think he's seeing a Mike from another timeline/or he ended up in another timeline (because the gate just opened?) I don't know. Maybe a timeline where Karen interrupted the campaign earlier, or Will rolled the dice and won. That would explain Mike's confusion, and the flickering lights.

And now I'm thinking about other parallels

The zeppelin and the Rainbowship

The first time Olivia sees the parallel world, she draws this

What if Will didn't just imagine the Rainbowship, but drew what he SAW, like he drew the vines?

Nina kinda looks like a little spaceship, so, maybe... I don't believe what Owens said. I think they were already using the silos before El lost her powers.

(EDIT: Spoilers of The First Shadow- Now we know that in 1943, the ship of Brenner's father wound up in Dimension X, during the Philadelphia Experiment, which was connected to the Rainbow Project. So, maybe Will's Rainbowship is a reference to that and a hint at different timelines)

But back to Olivia and Will. Here she's drawing while the adults are talking about her, and Will is drawing while Joyce and Hopper are talking with Owens, who gives major Walter Bishop vibes, and even has a son named Peter.

Byler and Polivia, the parallel of their first meeting

The Rainbowship is mentioned in the shed scene, the same scene in which Mike reminds Will of the first time they met.

In 3x15 Olivia draws the zeppeling, and in the same episode Peter finds her sketchbook and sees her drawing of the field of white tulips. Her drawings, that are connected to her powers and visions, help him to find her. And this is a beautiful parallel with Will and Mike, because Peter's life changes when she meets Olivia. They talk about her abusive father (in the shed scene Jon mentions Lonnie) and it's after they talk in that field that Peter decides to accept his new family and his new life.

Asking Will to be his friend is the best thing Mike has ever done, and their lives changed too, when they met.

I don't think there are parallel worlds in ST, just different timelines, because for some reason they're stuck in a loop. They mention time loops a few times, and Max even mentions it when they are in Henry's house.

In S2 Nancy tells Murray that his timeline is wrong, and in his letter Hopper says that you can't turn back the clock... But then Henry does it in the flashback. There's also this Back to the future line: The appropriate question is 'When the hell are they?'

And if there's really a time loop, I think Will and Henry can see other timelines or maybe the timelines are merging? There are so many hints.

From Will's Marty Mcfly outfit in S1, to Henry seeing the Mind Flayer when he was a kid. The crystal ball in the Will the Wise drawing, used by clairvoyants, the Forever Clock that Dustin gives to Will, Will's name engraved on the grandfather clock and him saying, in his Will the Wise outfit, that he's seen into the future. If they're stuck in a time loop, then the future is actually the past, since the story has repeated itself many times. Steve and Robin even mention the whole going back to future/present thing.

In 4x01 El says that they're all time travellers, so yeah, if Olivia can see and travel to a parallel world, maybe in ST people can see (or travel to) different timelines of the timeloop.

Eleven, Twelve and Thirteen

In the Nina scenes I noticed that Thirteen is often in the frame with El or Twelve (who I think represents Will). At first I didn't understand why. She never speaks or interacts with El. And I didn't know why they cast a girl that looks like young Millie. The actress said that the crew kept telling her that she looked like Millie, and before S4 many fans speculated that she would play El. Everything means something in this show, and the casting is always on point, so I thought maybe they want us to notice something? Then I remembered that Olivia was Subject 13.

So that kid could be a subtle hint that we're seeing different timelines in Nina. From the beginning, when El wakes up and see the rooms of Four and Nine. 4+9=13

Twelve and Thirteen

Twelve and Thirteen in the Rainbow Room. It's interesting that in both these scenes they focus on 12, "Will", and 13, who looks like little El, after they show the twins. Willel, twins, and different timelines...

Brenner and Thirteen's room

Thirteen and Eleven (and Twelve)

I really think that Thirteen is a reference to Olivia, and since Olivia can see parallel worlds, maybe this is a hint at the ability to see/travel to other timelines. I already thought that El was seeing different timelines, and that she was actually there, with her mind, but this is a nice detail.

*Another interesting 13 mention. The 13th birthday of a kid named Georgie. George, like George Smith in the play? We know that Will's birthday is important, and since this scene is about his parents, I think this mention is connected to both Will and Henry/Edward

Hm, a bit lost, because of other timelines/a time loop?

Anyway, I love Fringe and I love that ST has so many parallels with such a beautiful story.

#byler #tfs spoilers #the first shadow spoilers #will byers #mike wheeler #twelvegate #willel twins #time loop theory #timeline theory #henry creel #vecna #st theory #st parallels #el hopper #stranger things

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givehimthemedicine · 1 year

Text

Big Analysis Part 1

Gates, Demogorgons, and Tunnels

[ Part 2 ]

My attempt to iron out explanations for a variety of how-and-when type questions pertaining to.. well, it's there in the title. this is super long, but I really hope you take a look because I think I've got viable explanations if not The Answer for a lot of big questions.

Topics:

The difference between gates and portals

Is the demogorgon Henry?

Is S1, S3, S4 all the same demogorgon?

Why no more portals since S1?

Is Dart the slug Will coughed up?

Where was the demogorgon for seasons 2 & 3?

How the Russians captured the democreatures & particles

How did Dart get in Dustin's trash?

What's the deal with the tunnels? is that the UD?

The significance of the library in the UD

Why do some gates close and others spread?

Theory about the mothergate

Theory about it was a seven / 8:15

this post deals mostly with the literal and not so much predictions/symbolism/character analysis type stuff, but a few topics in the second half start to form theories that flirt with potential spoiler territory, so if you prefer to be surprised about the subject of Will's vanishing in s5, probably don't read.

these sections are ordered to build logic and Realizations as you read straight through, so although I tried to make it browsable, it REALLY makes more sense if you read all of it.

1. Gates and portals

distinguishing gates from portals is not at all my idea, but let me nail down the differences between them because it's super important for the logic of this entire analysis.

both are doorways into the other dimension, both are separated by a goopy pink membrane, but their other qualities aren't consistent. besides who made them and from which direction, some have vines coming out, some don't. some leave no trace, others do.

here's a list of all the different holes I can think of and different qualities they have.

grey is for things we weren't shown, but I filled in based on the logic of the rest and the fact that if it was otherwise somebody would've mentioned it.

so here's the distinction I'm making for the rest of the post:

GATES are opened by humans. they have vines and may be inclined to close or spread, but when they do close, they leave scars:

list of what I consider gates:

'79 in the rainbow room

'83 in the lab (the mothergate)

'83 in the classroom

'84 in Russia just for a minute

'85 under Starcourt

'86 Chrissy, Fred, Patrick, Max gates

most of these are explicitly referred to as "gates" on the show. "door" is also used sometimes to mean gate by both Henry and Alexei.

*vines are always characteristic of gates with the single exception that I'm not certain we saw any in the Starcourt one. it's clearly a legit gate - closing it makes the monster die. I guess it would have vines but doesn't yet, because Alexei says it's not open but openING. I'll remind you when this becomes relevant.

**it looks most logically consistent to me to say that gates always leave scars, but we were never actually shown what either of the laser gates looked like after closing.

PORTALS are small holes opened by the demogorgon which never have vines, always close up pretty quickly, and never leave a trace. list of what I consider portals:

the Byers living room wall, living room floor, living room ceiling, Will's room wall, hallway floor

the Nancy tree where the demogorgon yoinks the deer

the school hallway

the wall in the shed where Will got yoinked

the ceiling of the Lab elevator where the scientist got yoinked

the pool where Barb got yoinked

I can't remember anybody on ST ever referring to one of the temporary holes opened by the demogorgon as "a gate", even though they never explicitly discuss a difference either.

in contrast to gate scars, they make a point of showing that no trace is left behind when portals heal.

"but wait, the demogorgon is totally Henry, doesn't that throw off the data in your stupid little chart?"

no, not the way I understand Henry to "be" the demogorgon. I'll explain more in Is the demogorgon Henry?, but I believe all these portals are being, in deed though not in purpose, opened by the actual demogorgon.

"but wait, what about the time Will opened that portal in the wall??"

no he did not. that was the hole where the demogorgon came through to attack Joyce before - Will found it just before it finished healing.

now, one more huge thing: gates enable portals to be opened.

where am I getting this?

well, if Henry can make a demogorgon open a portal to yoink Will in 1983... why wouldn't he have just done that in 1979? why Henry's whole thing about needing El to open a gate for him, if portals are a thing?

just think: Will got taken when the mothergate opened, but he wasn't taken through the mothergate. the demogorgon didn't grab him in the shed, drag him 2 miles down the road, in the front door of Hawkins Lab, down the elevator [Will and the demogorgon awkwardly listening to elevator music], through the mothergate, back through the Upside Down version of all that backwards, all the way back to his house where they started. no, Will was taken right through a portal in the shed to the UD shed. so what did the gate even have to do with it?

the fact that the demogorgon never opened any portals until immediately after the opening of the mothergate tells us that it couldn't until then.

2. Is the demogorgon Henry?

for sure. but in what sense is critically important. I can think of three ways that we could say Henry "is" the demogorgon:

Henry shapeshifting? This doesn't work for me because I don't think Henry can shapeshift. I don't think what he does to Max in s4 is literally, physically changing his appearance, but rather changing Max's perception of his appearance, like what Kali can do.

and even if he could shapeshift, I don't think that explains what's going on. like wearing an Eleven Halloween costume doesn't grant you telekinesis, Henry shapeshifting as a demogorgon would not personally gain its abilities. and the demogorgon must have abilities Henry doesn't, otherwise he wouldn't need to involve it at all.

Henry tricking observers into perceiving him as a demogorgon? Nah. it showed up in Jonathan's candid photo.

Henry puppeting an actual demogorgon is the only way that makes sense. I believe the demogorgon of s1 is an actual demogorgon that Henry is controlling after possessing it with the Mind Flayer, just like he did to Will.

we see the Henrygorgon open portals a bunch of times, so by whose ability is this happening: the demogorgon, Henry, or the Mind Flayer?

it can't be Henry, because if Henry could open portals himself, he wouldn't need the demogorgon. and it can't be the Mind Flayer, because again, why involve the demogorgon.

portaling can only be the demogorgon's ability, and that's why it's very important that the Henrygorgon is physically a legit demogorgon that's taking orders from Henry, and not somehow Henry in disguise.

"but wait, if portaling is an inherent demogorgon ability, why hasn't the demogorgon been terrorizing Hawkins since forever?"

because you gotta have a gate in order to open portals, and there wasn't a gate open long enough for it to come through until 1983.

3. Is s1, s3, and s4 the same demogorgon?

No.

the one El dispatches in s1 is all burnt because of Nancy & co setting it on fire, but the s3 postcredits one has pristine skin. s1 and s3 are different individuals.

the s3 and s4 look very different, but this dialogue in Hopper's last supper scene explains how they're the same one:

You know why they feed captive predators live prey? Because if they don't, the predator gets bored and stops eating. It needs the thrill of the hunt. And this food isn't to make us strong. It's to make us plump. So we're full of the nutrients and protein that a growing monster might need.

in the s3 postcredits we see them feed a captive prisoner to it, and that's why it's skinny - it's bored. in 4, now that it's been hunting prey that can fight back, it's filled out, muscular, battle scarred. it's so buff Mike would have a poster of it if only it had nipples.

4. Why haven't there ever been any more portals since season 1, if demogorgons and gates are still both a thing?

I first theorized that the demogorgon's ability to open portals gets switched on when at least one gate to our world is open, and off when none are. but if that was it, then the Russian demogorgon should have started portaling all over the prison the moment Chrissy died. I had to get up and take a walk because this ruined my whole thing, but I think I've got it now.

the answer is in the very first scene of the show.

the scientist comes fleeing out from the gate room. but then the thing he's running from is somehow ahead of him, already in the elevator.

to pop out into the RU elevator, the demogorgon had to come from the UD. but we know it was in the RU once already before that, because it already scared the scientist. so how'd it get to the RU that time? it could not have come through a portal to the RU straight from its eternity in the UD, otherwise it would've been doing that since forever.

it's a chicken/egg situation that's only solved by the demogorgon coming in originally through the gate.

Brenner goes down to look at the gate, some guy says "is this where it came from?" and he says "Yes." why TELL us that? the audience can't just see "gaping eldritch hellhole" and "monster on the loose" and put two and two together? this must be REALLY important to be so underlined.

it is. they're showing us that the demogorgon became able to open portals between the UD/RU not just by virtue of the gate existing, but by coming in through it.

the Chrissy gate didn't make the Russian demogorgon able to open portals because it didn't come in through Chrissy's gate. more on that later.

5. Is Dart the slug Will coughed up?

definitely not. those things grow up very quickly, in a matter of days. Dustin found Dart as a pollywog almost an entire year after Will coughed up the slug so there's no way it's the same one.

6. Where was the demogorgon for seasons 2 and 3?

the Henrygorgon of season 1 is either dead or minding its own business in the Upside Down. I don't think it's dead because the same treatment didn't kill Henry.

"but wait, the mothergate was still open, if the Henrygorgon wasn't dead why didn't it just come right back in?"

the process of dematerializing it could also have exorcised it of the MF, so that it was no longer the Henrygorgon. or maybe Henry just didn't want to do season 1 all over again after he already got his ass kicked.

so if season 1's demogorgon is retired, where's the Russian one been during seasons 2 and 3? :)

you know how I said the Russian demogorgon isn't able to open portals because it never came in through Chrissy's gate? well, it never came in through any gate.

how could a demogorgon possibly get to the Rightside Up WITHOUT passing through a gate? there's only one way.

being born on this side.

:) :) :)

The Russian demogorgon is the slug Will coughed up.

"but wait, those slugs grow up to be demodogs, not demogorgons!" they're factually the same animal. here's an interview detailing the creative process for all its life stages from slug to demogorgon, in which ST's VFX supervisor states that the demodog is, quote, "an adolescent model of the Demogorgon."

I'm not saying "wouldn't that be a hoot," I'm saying it can't be any other way. the Russian demogorgon can't be the original one, because it isn't burnt. there were manymany demogorgons born in season 2 (Dart & friends) but it can't be one of them because they all died when El closed the gate. some demogorgons were born at the end of season 1, but all except one were born in the UD where their hosts died (we'll talk about this later), and aren't in play. that leaves only one unaccounted for.

Will coughed it up and it went down the sink, into the sewers of Hawkins. over a matter of days it matured into a demodog and started digging the tunnels of season 2.

7. How the Russians captured the democreatures and particles

Enzo tells Hopper that he's "heard rumors of a monster from America" and in season 3 Erica looks at a steel cage in the Russian bunker and says: "Hey Dustin, how big did you say that demogorgon was?" this spells out for us that the Russian demogorgon was captured in Hawkins and transported to Russia.

this is another reason the Russian demogorgon has to be Will's, and not merely one of Dart's generation that was allowed to grow up instead of being put into suspended animation in those tanks - they want us to know the Russians caught a demogorgon that was already an adult.

I think this is why they made a point of the Starcourt gate being "openING" instead of open - to rule out the possibility that a new demogorgon came in.

since the Russians never opened a gate long/big enough for any democreatures to come through, the demodogs had to be sourced from Hawkins also.

I figure the Russians captured them both underneath Hawkins in season 2.

"but wait, underground Russians were a 3 thing, not a 2 thing!"

you know how long it takes to move that much earth? to have that humongous underground fortress finished and functional by season 3, the Russians had to be well underway during 2. the scene of the failed Russian gate which necessitates them trying again in Hawkins is set in June '84 (that's between 1 and 2). they could have started any time from then on.

In 3x4, we see Hopper look at some land deeds - the people who own Starcourt (Russians) buying up farmland because they "want to expand" - dated 11/13/84. for context, that's like a week after El closed the gate in season 2. the Russians built Starcourt in 1984 to conceal their real construction project, the underground fortress.

so in the process of digging sometime between July-October of 1984 while the mothergate was still open, the Russians must have run into those tunnels that ran all underneath Hawkins. and at that time, the tunnels contained the adult Will-demogorgon and lots of demodogs. they captured the adult and several juveniles - possibly at younger stages when it would've been easier - and put them into suspended animation. they kept the demogorgon awake, and shipped them all off to Russia, where they started feeding the demogorgon prisoners.

"but wait, the Russian demodogs can't be from the s2 Hawkins batch! they all died when the gate closed!"

hang on, I'm about to explain.

now, how on earth did the Russians capture a hunk of the particles?

I can't think of an easier way to capture it than packaged neatly in host bodies. the demodogs the Russians captured were possessed,

"hold it right there, how'd they capture possessed demodogs? wouldn't they just portal away? wouldn't they be all rabid and invincible?" juvenile demogorgons aren't able to open portals. if they could, Dart would've escaped Dustin's cellar that way. and possession doesn't make demogorgons of any age invincible, it just controls them mentally. demogorgons can take 900000 bullets because they're just like that, possessed or not. strong skin or something. but juveniles aren't so tough yet - see Hopper taking out several of them with 1 shot apiece as El closes the gate.

anyway, they took a handful of possessed demodogs back to the facility in Russia and burnt the MF out of them, trapping their combined particles in that holding tank, and then placing the exorcised dogs into suspended animation.

the Russians definitely know about he-likes-it-cold. it's how they're keeping the swirling particles contained behind glass: they've got the area outside its holding tank surrounded with heating elements. it isn't captive because it can't break glass, it's captive because it doesn't want to go toward the heat.

this explains how these several captive demodogs don't drop dead as a result of gates closing: not just because they're in suspended animation, but because they're no longer possessed at the time the gates close.

think of Will in season 2 - they had to hold off closing the mothergate until they burned the MF out of him, otherwise as a part of the army, Will would have died along with all the demodogs.

see, the "democreatures all dropping dead when a gate closes" thing isn't because the creatures just inherently die of homesickness or something, it's because they're almost always possessed by the MF, and the MF is what "dies" (falls down inert) when gates are closed. if the MF "died" while inside Will, Will would have died, but exorcised Will survived the closing of the mothergate just fine, and so did these demodogs. in fact, the exact piece of the MF that was in Will was the piece that was in the flesh monster, and it did "die" when the Starcourt gate closed, which made the monster die.

s4 spells out for us that demodogs/gorgons can and do get possessed by the MF exactly how Will did (the dying Russian guard says that "the shadow went into them"), confirming for us the mechanism for s1's Henrygorgon.

we know the demodogs aren't still possessed while in suspended animation because the shadow wouldn't need to go into them if it was already in them.

"but wait, are we sure those demodogs were possessed in the first place if they were born in the tunnels and not in the actual UD? how did the MF get to them?"

they definitely were possessed because they acted as a part of the hive mind, but I am a bit shaky on how. my best explanation right now is that since the tunnels went right up to the mothergate, the MF could reach into the RU tunnels like it reached through when El was closing the gate, or the demodogs passed freely in and out of the gate and got possessed while in the UD.

8. How did Dart get in Dustin's trash?

my best guess on this one is disappointingly mundane. I saw that shot of Hopper seeing the dead raccoon in the tunnels, and I thought, how about if a raccoon was rooting around in Dustin's trash and coughed up a slug?

this led me down a much more important avenue of thought: where all those demodogs came from. by season 2 there are a LOT. I'd say 20-30 just in that one shot of them falling dead in droves when El closes the gate.

while we do have one demogorgon in play at this time, demogorgons themselves can't reproduce as far as we know. those slugs are planted by a vine.

live bodies are needed to incubate those slugs, but Hawkins is a small town and dozens more disappearances would've surely been mentioned. how then?

animals. Will's demogorgon yoinked any number of animals from the woods to host those slugs, and the slugs soon grew into demodogs which fed on their hosts' bodies.

only they weren't yoinked to the UD, but to the tunnels. that's what that area littered with bones was were Hopper got trapped, the place he called the "graveyard". a demogorgon nursery.

9. What's the deal with the tunnels?

the tunnels act as sort of a bridge area between the RU and the UD.

it's physically the RU, but so heavily infiltrated by the vines and spores due to proximity to the gate that it's functionally the UD. (like how vines and spores spread a little ways into the Lab through the gate, hence hazmat suits needed to even approach it).

it can't be the actual UD, because the hole Hopper digs through to access it doesn't act like a gate/portal. if the tunnels were the UD, if Hopper was even able to break through with his shovel (which humans can't do), he would have fallen into a gravity-reversed UD copy of that pumpkin field. instead, he broke through to a physical tunnel in the dirt.

10. The significance of the library in the Upside Down

ok this is one of my hair twirlingest sections in the whole thing

you know when Will pointed out that spot in the tunnels, and said it was important and the Mind Flayer didn't want him to see there?

and Hopper saw on the soldiers' video feed that they were in "the graveyard," that place Joyce and Bob rescued him from earlier? the demogorgon nursery?

but it turned out Will was just lying about it being important to get those soldiers sent to their deaths?

Will wasn't lying. It really is an important place.

the graveyard is where the ambush happened. and the graveyard is directly underneath the library.

not just because of the X clue, but because, remember how I called the graveyard a demogorgon nursery a minute ago?

and remember what happened to Will in the library?

as above, so below.

the library is the demogorgon nursery of season 1's Upside Down. all six of the yoinked were taken there to get slugged, not just Will.

"but wait, if they were all taken to the library, wouldn't Hopper and Joyce have seen their bodies there?"

they did. people seem to forget.

"but wait, how can Barb be dead in the library if Nancy saw her in Steve's pool in s4?" dead Barb in the pool was a vision Henry gave Nancy to torment her, not current or literal footage.

now check this out.

the Duffers have specifically listed the first Indiana Jones movie as one of their inspirations. remember that scene where they're searching everywhere in that old library for a "ten" marking the location of a tomb? and you know what a roman numeral ten looks like? and Indy finally finds it....

on the floor? and they pull up a tile and drop into a catacombs tunnel full of bones underground beneath the library? that scene sure was neato!!

more X / ten library refs

now remember in the Hopper-stuck-in-the-tunnels part, there's also a moment where he sees a spot of dense vines and tries burning them away and digging his way out? well the vines grow densely like that to cover holes - we saw them quickly grow over and conceal the hole Hopper originally dug into the tunnels. that's why he couldn't find his way out before.

does this not indicate that there was a preexisting but sealed-up hole right there in the graveyard... not another branch of walkable tunnel, but a smaller tunnel leading UP...

to the library??

someone PLEASE Indiana Jones the library floor in s5. it's tile.

"but wait, as far as we know, those tunnels didn't exist until s2, and only demodogs dig, and the only demogorgon in play was already an adult."

right, I am thinking that the slug Will coughed up went on to become the founder of the tunnels, which means that neither the tunnels nor the theoretical library-hole would have existed at the time of the s1 yoinkings.

either Will's demogorgon or any of Dart's friends could've dug the library hole (assuming there wasn't some preexisting ancient tomb under there) but why? why would they need a tunnel from the graveyard to the RU library? and from which direction was it dug? could the five UD demogorgons have dug it down from where they were born in the UD library? I don't think alterations made to the UD affect the RU, but could there be some loophole here given that the tunnels are almost like a bridge dimension? I need to think more.

I'll leave you with this:

remember where Henry found the black widow nest that ended up being his whole life's inspiration? in a vent under the floor in the bathroom? it's giving me Indy under the library floor BIGTIME.

see how the nest is also full of egg sacs? remember how Max stepped on some of those and little baby spiders came out? I just read a little about black window spiders and their egg sacs take about 30 days to hatch. would this be a fun time to mention that Will coughed up that slug 26 days after being rescued? and that Victor Creel said the family had "a month of peace in that house" before the horrors started?

I'm thinking the library was already a significant place for Henry in order for him to take the yoinked there. I'm pretty sure the tunnels were started after the yoinkings, so the graveyard was placed under the library, and not that the library was chosen for being on top of some geographical spot of preexisting importance.

this is where I'll need to hand this topic off to a better analyst because I tend to be too literal, but I think we need to talk about the possibility that something happened to Henry at the library, maybe in the basement. if that's where he took all the yoinked, it must be a significant place for him.

11. Why some gates close and others spread

does the opener of the gate determine its nature? that can't be it. El opened multiple gates that behaved very differently.

the Mothergate started as a crack in a wall and grew enormous. the Lab's controlled burns barely slowed it down its spread. but the rainbow gate was just big enough for Henry and then sealed back up in less than a minute. same with the classroom gate, it sealed up so fast that we didn't even see it.

so what's the difference? why was one huge and spreading and the others small and temporary?

I'm gonna get a little more abstract here than the rest of the post, but bear with me while I take a guess.

the mothergate was created when El made psychic contact with the demogorgon and experienced extreme fear, right? and Chrissy, Fred, Patrick, Max's gates are created when Henry made psychic connections with them and tortured them with fear, despair, hatred, guilt. notice how those are the gates that spread.

the rainbow room gate was created when El overpowered Henry by harnessing her single happy memory of her mother's love. the classroom gate was created when El had such protective love for her new friends that she was willing to sacrifice her life for them.

may I suggest that gate behavior depends on which emotion fuels their opening.

Fear, guilt, bitterness, hate festers. Love heals. but both types of wounds leave scars.

Stranger Things is a live action Monsters Inc

I'll grant you that this symbolism doesn't explain the two gates opened by Russian lasers, but maybe those sidestep the issue due to being artificially created.

anyway if 8-year-old El had successfully overpowered Henry using the power of her sad/angry memories instead of switching to love, that rainbow room gate might have been the spreading sort, the events of 1983/1986 could have happened immediately, and with baby El out of commission, the world would have ended in 1979.

warning - if I'm right at all, we're drifting towards what might be considered spoiler territory for the rest of this.

12. Why did the mothergate open where it did?

when Henry opened gates, they were all formed on the exact spot of the victim's body. and both times El opened gates, they also formed on the exact spot of the victim's body - the wall right behind Henry, and the chalkboard right behind the demogorgon.

if El was the opener of the mothergate, why didn't the gate open right on the "victim" - the demogorgon? and even if we've got it backwards and El is the victim, why didn't the gate open right on her water tank either? Instead of either location, it randomly cracked the wall several feet away.

the boring answer is they probably just hadn't thought out all this gate lore while they were shooting season 1, which was meant to be a standalone with no continuing story.

and while I think that's true to some extent, it doesn't even interfere with the FUN ANSWER, which is:

how about if the mothergate DID form exactly where the "victim" was, and the "victim" was Henry.

Henry, standing in the Upside Down lab during El's Russian spy mission. remembering how she opened a gate in 1979 and trying to recreate it - bracing himself against the nearest wall, knowing that if his plan works, and he can connect with El while she's psychically receptive and get her to experience extreme terror again, another gate will open.

13. It was a seven / 8:15

that seven could be more important than just to show that Will won't lie to Mike.

there are a bunch of other sevens on ST. now, this whole section could be a reach because plenty of them are unrelated, but I can't help notice that a handful of them pertain at least sort of to the bikes/Mike's garage.

"It was a seven"

the 7 on the license plate in the Wheelers' garage

what day does Hopper find Will's bike? the 7th

when the gang has to ride the Wheelers' bikes to Eddie's trailer, he says it's 7 miles away

and if we widen the search to include ones pertaining to DnD, we get a couple more,

Lucas cuts off the thessalhydra's 7 heads at the end of the same campaign

Mike takes 7 points of damage in the s3 DnD campaign

that's like half of the ST "seven" references that I can think of (though I'm sure there are more I've missed) that have some topical overlap with "it was a seven".

PS, the show that's on Ted Wheeler's TV is Knight Rider, and an episode of Knight Rider really did air the night of November 6, 1983. the 7th episode of the season :)

ok, now hold that thought.

s4 Robin says to Nancy, "I know your house is creepily frozen in time, but haven't you always had bikes?" so they take the Wheeler family's bikes to the trailer, and we get one of the coolest cinematic shots in the whole show.

Eddie is on Mike's bike. Nancy is riding her own (unless I'm forgetting, we only ever glimpse it in the garage-bat-practice scene; we know it's hers because it's a girl bike frame). Robin and Steve are on two adult bikes that must be Ted and Karen's.

IF I'm onto something here, this scene came [Vecna voice] so close to the truth, Nancy.

they didn't show us the gang finding and getting on those bikes. they didn't say there were only those four available.

what if I reminded you that we know a specific time frame on Nov 6 1983 - pretty wide time frame actually - when there were more than just four bikes at the Wheeler house.

between roughly 10am-8:15pm, during the ten hour DnD campaign, the party's bikes were there too.

how many bikes does that total? 7.

did I go all that way just for another obscure 7? maybe, but the part that makes me itchy is...

why did s4 have to borderline retcon the idea of Karen and Ted having owned bikes during s1, instead of just putting Steve and Robin on the party's bikes that we saw there canonically? it must be important that they didn't take those specific bikes. hold that thought.

now work with me here...

Will rolled the 7 at 8:15... 7 bikes at 8:15...

this ties in with my eightfifteengate hunch: 8:15pm is the exact time at which the Upside Down is frozen.

IF the 7 bikes thing is important, the Upside Down couldn't be frozen any later than 8:15pm, because the party went home right after Will rolled the seven, so any time after that there wouldn't be 7 bikes there anymore.

now, what doubt I have about the scenario I'm about to pitch isn't at all because it isn't feasible, but because the optics are delightfully goofy depending what we imagine Henry looks like in 1983.

I don't have a solid map of Hawkins, but I know the Lab and Will's house are closer together than Mike's house is from either of them. and our first two sightings of the demogorgon are at Hawkins Lab and then in the road near Will's house. Mike's house would've been significantly out of the way for a stop in between.

what if.... the demogorgon didn't stalk Will home. the lights flickering in Mike's garage? what if that was Henry himself.

I know, that immediately creates a problem: if Henry's at Mike's house, how could he be at Will's house in time for the vanishing? he can't teleport. Will's biking at a fair pace and even raced Dustin part of the way - Henry would have to haul ass the entire way?

you know what means of transportation is available that goes at least as fast as Will's bike?

Will's bike. the upside down one.

THIS is a scenario where it gets important for there to be 7 bikes. for Steve and Robin to have taken Ted and Karen's instead of party bikes.

if the UD is frozen at a time when there are >4 bikes in the garage - and we're certain it was that way at 8:15 btw - Henry could've taken Will's, Lucas's, or Dustin's bike without screwing up the timeline. so that Nancy, Steve, Robin, and Eddie could walk into the UD garage 2 1/2 years later and still find Mike's, Dustin's, Lucas's, Nancy's, Ted's and Karen's bikes.

Nancy naturally would choose her own. Steve and Robin would probably prefer the adult bikes. and Eddie, the newcomer, takes his pick of the kid bikes.

"but wait lol, if Henry had first pick of all 7 bikes why wouldn't he take one of the adult ones?" because he's a cheeky bitch and it'd be just like him to pick Will's bike? also Ted and Karen don't store their bikes in the garage and Henry didn't have time to go rooting around their shed or wherever they keep them while Will was already starting to pedal away.

PS someone please draw for me: Henry, in full Vecna mode, grumpily riding the only bike left in the garage because the timeline got screwed up: a tiny pink tricycle belonging to Holly Wheeler

anyway, 8:15 being the only moment during that night that they timestamped makes me so suspicious about it, because in order to call back to something later for a Big Reveal, you need to make note of it at the time - just not too noticeably. that's why Karen Wheeler opens the basement door and says "it's fifteen after!" and then they bury the "8" in a separate scene, later, when Joyce and Karen talk on the phone. they really wanted the fact that Will rolled the 7 at 8:15 to be documented but not obvious.

I'm still figuring out actual support for the idea beyond that and bikegate but I will keep these lights up until the day I DIE if there's a chance I can prove the UD is frozen at 8:15.

part 2 soon to follow :)

tagged: @mlchaelwheeler @himynameis4 @steviescrystals @strangertwistoffate

#some of this isn't me cracking mysteries it's just me understanding things we were supposed to understand all along #but I promise some of it will be new for most of you #givehimthemedicine analysis #mine #how the upside down works #analysis #givehimthemedicine big analysis #im /hj about the bike part am I wrong probably is it hilarious to imagine yes

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thephantomhivefuckboi · 6 months

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Yall, holy--

˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚ ♰♰༒ ༒༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚

Note: This post contains spoilers from Black Butler season II. If you haven't watched it yet, or want to, please don't look at this post because I really don't wish to spoil it for you at all.~

˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚ ♰♰༒ ༒༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ༒ ˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚˚*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚

Okay, so I just had a bit of a short realization just now...

So, you remember this scene from Black Butler Season II where Ciel had slapped Claude, right?

And we also can't forget the look on Claude's face when it had happened

(Lol this image had me dying the first time I saw it)

But I have a bit of a small theory...What if the reason for why Claude made this facial expression wasn't just because the slap hurt, but because it reminded him of Alois slapping him?

Not to mention that as seen within Episode 8 of Season II, Alois is seen slapping Claude within a flashback of his before Claude kills him, and he appears to look calm about it (although I'm sure deep down he wanted to suplex Alois right after it happened lol) But what do you guys think?

#black butler #kuroshitsuji #claude faustus #alois trancy #ciel phantomhive #sebastian michaelis #black butler season 2 #black butler theory #black butler observation

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angrycloudloud · 3 months

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Percy Jackson show art appreciation post!!!

There are spoilers from the books and the TV show also bad quality images from the show. So... Read and look at this at your own discretion.

Now. Let's start with Olympus and the thrones in the last episode. (And sorry again about the bad quality of the pictures, i couldn't take screenshots of it)

I said it last night in another post, but i SAW the arches... And Ancient Greek temples, usually, didn't used circular temples or arches very often, and the uses of those temples are either unknown or for "death related" things (this is an over simplification, the greeks were all over the mediterranean sea and some places adapted the structures of the greek temples to match the practices of the locals) ANYWAY... The tholos were more like circular temples than actually temples with arches so...yeah...arches in greeks IS something historians know they can build, but they weren't frecuently used by the greeks.

So... This... The arches in the show were bothering me,

...until someone pointed out some fan theories that i really liked and that having some context from the books (specially the hoo ones) it make sense that there's some arches there... Just because in those theories Percy is considered (spoiler) both Poseidon and Neptune child so It could be a subtle way to point that out.

And in the temples of Olympus, i needed a moment to analyze the scene.

First, we have the column corridor, which is interesting because those were actually more used in Ancient Egypt temples than Ancient Greek ones, but then i started thinking and saw what was behind those columns and the building with the arches behind...

I'm sorry again about the quality of the pictures, but as you can see (mostly imagine in the last one) there are some temples there that aren't really Greek. But they are temples used in other cultures in the eastern Asia. Also there's a building with a Big ass dome that reminded me of the domes of three Christian temples: Saint Sophia (now isn't a Christian temple anymore but a cool af mosque with so much interesting art and history), Saint Peter of the Vatican (the Big ass church where the Pope does his Pope things) and Saint Maria del fiore in Florence (relevant dome in fact, Brunelleschi did his best there). (I put the images of those domes down here so you don't have to suffer with the shitty images i took from the show... They are in order of mention.)

Now... WHY?! Why putting all those temples? It could mean two things (maybe more, but these two are the ones that made more sense for me)

There's other pantheons and gods living up there in what the show called Olympus, implying that all the gods that are canon in the Riordanverse live up there above New York.

The temples are from gods that had connections with the cultures that are represented with those temples (this is cool because some greek gods are actually being studied for their similarities in their cults and rites to other gods and deities from Asia) or have influenced posterior cultures and they've took the most "modern" temples and structures of buildings for their own temples (which is cool because all renaissance and baroque can't be understand without the influence of ancient greek and ancient rome discoveries at that time).

Now, i'll talk about the thrones and i'll cry because i don't have good pictures from them so you all have to trust me or read this watching the show 😅 because i can't have better pictures now and i need to write this as soon as possible before i forget everything.

That place. That place is ANCIENT, that IS The Mount Olympus throne room, it's there since the gods were gods. It is there since they defeated Cronos, and i think the show captured that perfectly.

...i can't put more pictures... So i'll post another post just for the thrones.

And another one later, just analyzing Percy's cabin. Because i think there's much more than just what we see in the architecture language of that cabin. (Maybe it's just me reading too much because college had made me mad and crazy with reading architecture like i used to read books.)

#pjo tv show #percy jackon and the olympians #pjo tv show art and architecture #pjo tv show analysis #pjo tv show spoilers #welcome to your Ancient Greek architecture basic class #if im crazy i'll turn you all crazy too #see you in the second part #Percy Jackson art appreciation

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ghenry · 6 months

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Was recently replaying some of the No More Heroes games on Switch, and remembered the hype leading up to No More Heroes III. Do you remember any speculation or theories about the game leading up to it's release? I remember the big one was a leaked screenshot from one of the visual novel segments showing what seemed to be Young Harman Smith.

WARNING: This post contains spoilers for No More Heroes 3 as well as Flower, Sun, and Rain.

I remember that! I don't blame folks for thinking that.

I recall thinking it might be Aramata from Moonlight Syndrome, not that it would make much sense if it was.

Anyway, I recall a few other theories. A lot of people--including myself--were expecting appearances by the likes of Kusabi or Kuroyanagi. This speculation came from the end of the first NMH3 trailer from E3 2019 when Sylvia was calling out codenames at the end.

"The Tiger has awakened . . . red, green, dark, black, blood."

In The 25th Ward remake, as well as a few other stories Suda has written recently, many characters were given color codenames to represent them. Midori Midorikawa, a boss in NMH3, went by Green. Kuroyanagi goes by Black, etc. Of course, perhaps people--including myself-- just jumped the gun because now this can basically be a way of describing the alien goons and the multi-colored blood they tend to spill out.

A lot of us were also giving credence to Travis Strikes Again and how so many characters appeared in the visual novel segments, thinking everything was going to merge even more-so in NMH3. Although, Suda has said that he originally was going to have more connections, before they got cut.

I like to think is mostly because Suda can't retain rights to NMH so he'd probably rather wait for an IP he actually owns to encompass what he's established before. Either way, not a lot of this world-merging stuff really makes sense, so these days I'll take it or leave it. Suda has also stated he considers TSA a 'commemorative' title to Grasshopper, hence having so many characters invited to make cameos and such.

Here's one possible example of a removed cameo, the fine folks at believeinthe.net data-mined NMH3 and found a lot of unused emails. Here's one of them;

People that played Flower, Sun, and Rain can think of one particular talking alligator!

Screenshot from AdrianVG's dual-playthrough of FSR

I recall another theory, while not directly related to games outside of NMH, that Travis was going to essentially make amends with past villains like Destroyman and Kimmy in order to form his own team to take on Fu and his cronies. And not only that, but every new friend he'd make would utilize the NMH motel as their home base. This came from early previews showing Bad Girl and Shinobu had their own rooms there as well.

We thought this because one of the taglines from an earlier trailer;

From the first NMH3 Nintendo Direct Trailer, October 2020

"The Hood" as in people from Santa Destroy. Travis' hood. Didn't really happen, as Travis primarily fought everyone by himself. There was no real team-up until the near-end of the game.

I just remembered one last theory, that Tokio Morishima was in the game. This came from the very first piece of gameplay we saw all the way back in 2019.

From the NMH3 trailer first shown at The Game Awards 2019

I understand why people thought this, the spiky hair did remind me of Tokio.

Of course, what people didn't know at the time was that it was Henry, who was redesigned by Takashi Miyamoto, lead artist for The Silver Case and The 25th Ward.

At the very least, we did get to see previously established characters appear in NMH3, such as Midori Midorikawa, who Suda first wrote about back in 2018. Although the first time she was visually depicted was in the manga adapting that original story he wrote about 3 years later, but several months before No More Heroes 3 released.

And Kamui! At least a version of him, that whole thing is kind of finnicky. Also Notorious, from the Fire Pro Wrestling World DLC on PS4/PC.

These were the only theories I could recall myself. There could be more, but these were the ones I was most privy to. Thanks for your question!

#suda51 #grasshopper manufacture #nmh3 #no more heroes #no more heroes 3 #kill the past #The Silver Case #flower sun and rain #the 25th ward #Red Blue Green

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littlekiara96 · 1 month

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So, I've cooked on hoyolab.

Have the full content of the same post, ready to be reblogged, under the cut.

Hello and welcome to

Theorycrafting with Kiara :D

Today, I will be discussing what has been said about Gallagher in particular during the 2.1 livestream!

I won't talk about his gameplay, since there's no point in commenting it, but I will delve into whatever lore we have as of pre-2.1.

Spoilers ahead! You've been warned.

Soooo, most of you probably know me from this coincidence post about Firefly and Gallagher, but did you know I have analysed weird details about him, too? And those details and little contradictions made me wonder about whether or not the mixologist is hiding something...

I had been wondering about how Gallagher could both seem important and yet be unknown by NPCs around Penacony, and I'm glad that Shaoji did confirm that Gallagher is "like a hero with anonymity".

Yes, he sounds like Batman, right now. Which is extra funny, because he'll do detective work during 2.1.

Which reminds me; see this picture?

Remember seeing those hound statues during the 2.0 storyline? They've always made me think of Gallagher, because of the pink hues they have. So... Are they like surveillance cameras for him?

And while we're on the subject of security... Let me remind you of a specific part of the livestream:

Kirin: "Bloodhound Family, protecting guests’ safety. But in the Version 2.0 story, did he even protect anything at all?"

Shaoji: "Well, you don’t understand. In the upcoming 2.1 storyline, Gallagher will play an important detective role and travel with the Crew to uncover the mysteries of Penacony. How do you know that his actions prior weren’t based on his own considerations and intentions?"

Shaoji... Don't make me believe that Gallagher and Firefly did share a look when they first saw each other... (Yes, I drink Copium SoulGlad, how did you know?)

And the last part that makes me wonder about stuff is this one...

Shaoji: "Is there a possibility that.. when I said Gallagher doesn’t have much of a story, someone actually think that he has? However, he really doesn’t have much of a past in the end. What a twist, right?"

Shaoji, Sir... I thought you were sincere. But you literally just lied. Because Gallagher's presentation itself mentions that he has a complicated past.

And I don't know about you people reading this, but "having a complicated past" sounds to me like the exact opposite of "not having much of a past".

And with all of this, I shall come up with another "crack theory", that follows what started as a "funny coincidence".

Gallagher knew that Firefly was a stowaway. He made sure she wouldn't be stopped in her personal endeavours. He kept watch over us through the hound statues, but unfortunately, he was unable to follow us into the "true Dream" when Sparkle sent us there, and thus he could not protect Firefly. He will be accompanying the Crew because he knows the Trailblazer did their best to help Firefly, and Gallagher now trusts them, and will help the Nameless uncover the truth of what happened and why it happened. Maybe he'll help the Trailblazer uncover some dark truth behind Penacony... Who knows, perhaps Sparkle wasn't all that wrong about it...

But alas! I only analyse lore and come up with theories merely for fun, and to give food for thought, as a means to entertain people while we wait together for the upcoming content.

I hope you have enjoyed my musings, and I shall now bid you farewell, and sweet dreams~ <3

#honkai star rail #hsr gallagher #gallagher hsr #theory #theorycrafting

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wait-thats-illegal · 9 months

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WELCOME HOME SPOILERS

My phone is being a bitch rn and I can't find the original post that inspired this theory but when I do I'll update with the @

Anyways, I mentioned on my last post about the hidden link under the So Below image. The jolting record really stood out to me but I wasn't sure what it could mean.

Then I remembered a post I saw yesterday.

This post pointed out the center of the records look like an eye (presumably Wally.) All the others (that I've found) are spinning slowly, like a normal audio file would (or as normal as we can get in this series.) However, the record under So Below was jolting, glitching, and just moving in random directions. The audio itself is just random noises, I'm not exactly certain what (I think knocking and maybe a doorknob jiggling.) There is no voices. I am almost positive this is Home as we know they can communicate through onomatopoeia (why is that word spelled like that it's heinous and I hate it.)

Back to the record. Originally I thought it was some sort of intentional glitch on the website, like hey this is wacky spooky thing look at this messed up record but knowing this series there's absolutely more than that.

Then I remembered the post about the eye.

Going off the assumption the eye is Wally's, he looks absolutely terrified. Or at the very least not fully in control of his body, thus causing the glitching. Furthermore assuming the audio is Home (and the audio itself being under So Below,) I think Home is either fully in control of Wally (at least in that moment) or is powerful enough to make him lose control. And he's terrified.

This somewhat reminds me of the one image of Wally shrouded in darkness telling the viewer to stay quiet. I'm not sure why, but this reminds me of that but instead of hiding, he's been caught

Idk if this even makes any sense or if I'm reading between lines that aren't there but here's this half-baked theory before I forget

#i cannoy find the original post that inspired this #im gonna keep looking and hope ill find the og user #welcome home #welcome home arg #welcome home theory #theory #welcome home spoilers #spoilers #wally darling #welcome home wally

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goddessofwind8water · 1 year

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Project Edens Garden Theory's

Spoilers for the prologue

Wolfgang

He fells Similar to Chiaki or Kaede as a leader or hope advocate. And like Kirigiri in his extreme usefulness of his talent . He is also really good at separating people when they are in an argument as we saw while we were getting people to gather in the courtyard as well as getting people to do what he wants

I believe that he will be a pillar of hope as well as a leader

So I think that he will ether be framed or killed in one of the late game chapters, most probably the 4th or the 5th chapter, to lower the groups spirits right before the final stretch

Grace

Grace reminds me of Tenko, for a lot of reasons, mostly the nicknames insults and build i guess. She's also very aggressive and competitive to the point that former friends of her often wonder if there anything she won't do to stay on the top.

I think shes going to burn out early, probably in the 1st or 2ed chapter (I wanna say third but i feel that jest because i keep equating her to Tenko).

I have two theory on how

The first is a similar motive to Sayaka or Teruteru, she is stated to defend her total aggressively in which case i think it is more likely to go out in the first chapter, whenever she ends up being the victim like Sayaka or the killer like Teruteru i don't know

The second theory is that it will be a crime of passion, (or a killing made in the heat of the moment)

Grace likes talking smack (even if you couldn't tell from the prolog, it specificity mentions it in her character card) If she were to talk smack to an agitated character (presumably after the 1st chapter but it's not set in stone) and ether be killed by that character in a fit of rage or she gets angry at a charterer and kills them (similar to Mondo, maybe beat to death with a golf club??)

Eva

I don't have much on her, i don't particular think she's gonna die. I think that Damion is going to have a character arc and learn the error of his ways and Eva will be a type of narrative foil.

I really don’t know as much about her a I do the others, maybe that’s why she’s the ultimate lier, I don’t know.

Toshike

the Matchmaker, I don’t think I need to actually need to draw the link from her to Hiyoko, there’s the similar dress and the occasional jab at others (one more than the other but still) Anyway, don’t really see her surviving particularly.

my best guess is that she tries to get involved in something she shouldn’t, for instance, say two characters are close or even dating, they get in a fight, and than she as the (proud) ultimate matchmaker tries to steap in to help, she pushes the wrong button and an already agitated person snaps, and kills her.

If there’s going to be a double murder in the game I think it would be here, the killer either would kill her and then have to kill there friend/ partner to hide the proof or they kill there friend/ partner then she comes in trying to help and is collateral damage.

Also on a similar note she could kill two people so that they could, be together forever, tho that’s if she goes full on crazy.

On the hand she could just be a way for the creators to tease ship.

This is only the first part of my thoughts

Other parts will be linked here:

if there are no links then I have yet to finish my thoughts on the other characters.

also I you want to talk about any of this both the chat function on this post aswell as my dm’s are both open!

#wolfgang akire #grace madison #Toshiko Kayura #Eva Tsunaka #project: eden’s garden #Theory #tw death mention #i will get the rest out as I’m really interested in certain characters #But I promised myself I would go in order

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commenter2 · 3 months

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"Overture" review

After so many years, Hazbin Hotel is finally out. As of making this, I was a bit surprised that Vivzie (and Prime) posted the first episode on YouTube with the series coming out soon but I’m not complaining, as I had a recent conversation with someone about if Vivzie would post the episodes on her YouTube channel over time and I think it could happen but SLOWLY, like months after season 1 is done and with months in between postings.

Now let’s begin this review/reaction literature. Along with obvious spoilers, this will be a long review (sorry in advance) but I would really appreciate if you could read the whole thing.

Being the premiere, it makes sense to start with exposition from Charlie. It’s also fitting that she tells it like a fairy tale as I see it reflecting how Charlie sees the world, though I bet it will change a bit later on. Hopefully she can still keep that POV a bit at the end of the series, maybe like a kind of modern day fairytale view of the world.

Insert “accurate angels” joke here.

So 2 women are representing good and evil. I’m making a note for that as that is definitely going to lead to something.

I do like how the story is keeping the fact that Lucifer was good, like how some versions say Lucifer was God’s number 1 angel. Also in the scene with the angels working on Earth, one of the angels is shaped like that angel we saw in the season 1 trailer, meaning she and Lucifer likely go way back and confirming that she is really powerful/high ranking angel. Some say she is a refence to an old character of Vivzie’s of an angle who LOVED torturing sinners so who knows.

LILITH! Also this confirms that she WAS human. Hopefully this means Lucifer is okay with other humans/sinners, especially Vaggie (hint hint writers) and Lilith being the “queen of succubus” is an honorary title like I brought up in the past.

I am curious about what “pre apple Adam” was like and if he was any different than his modern age self. There definitely should be a prequel episode showing more details of how Lucifer and Lilith met and leading to everything else.

Lucifer X Lilith is soo cute, I really hope nothing bad happened between them before the events of the series, as for some reason people have been theorizing and headcanoning that.

I’m hoping that Charlie’s happy tone at that part of the story confirms that they are still together.

Charlie’s story quickly goes from Lilith and Lucifer falling in love to them interacting with Eve. I feel like later on we will learn that something big happened in between these events, another reason for why a prequel episode should happen one day.

The apple makes the figure of Eve glow a bit like that woman from the beginning representing evil, I knew that’d come in handy. This and the fact that the apple is supposed to represent the knowledge of BOTH good and evil but isn’t here makes me wonder if Eve will be a villain in the show? I mean Adam is and after seeing how he ended up, I could see Eve being much worse. Plus Vivzie did say that the female characters will have more focus in Hazbin Hotel so I’ll keep an extra eye out with them. I also want to point out that this scene of Eve looks a lot like the early released trading card of Lilith! There is this theory floating around related to that but I’ll save that when we get more info.

The stuff about evil coming to be is a bit interesting/confusing. I just find it a little hard to believe that both good and evil can both existed at the same time here but it only took Lucifer’s actions to release it. Where was it before then and what was it doing? Could this possibly be hinting that elements of other religions/mythologies exist in this series, and whatever was left over became Hell/evilness? I do recall Stolas mentioning a creature from one such mythology in “Seeing Stars”. Could the “epilogue” of the Norse Ragnarök story be canon in this world? I do like the idea of God being Baldur. This also reminds me of an old idea of mind for a pic so stay tune for that.

Since this is from Charlie’s/Hell’s POV I do think that some of these events aren’t 100% true, like I don’t picture Lucifer wanting to give humans free will BUT it’s not impossible, as maybe he was so prideful and truly through it would be a good idea. Maybe he did it for Lilith, as she thought it will help Eve not go through the kind of things she went through with Adam that made her miserable. The story also does make Lucifer more sympathetic, considering the fact that he and Lilith were just tossed to Hell and no mentions of a fan popular idea of a war between Heaven and Hell along with that odd line about Lucifer never seeing/wanted to see the good in humanity and gave up on it and dreaming, considering how prideful he is supposed to be and how to me Lucifer looks like the kind of guy who wouldn’t give up that easily. Maybe Charlie will discover that Lucifer liked the evil and decided to make more things to hurt humanity, which as a bonus hurt those that ignored him for so long. This also does make me think this could be another idea/reason for why Lucifer is against Charlie’s plan, as he knows Heaven will say no to her redemption idea every time and doesn’t want Charlie to go through that pain, which could also again relate to another idea I’ve mentioned before of Lucifer not wanting Charlie to be constantly under threat from Heaven and its forces like he is.

It JUST occurred to me that Lilith could have singing powers, like a bard or maybe even a sonic scream but I rather see that last thing happen with Stella first :3

Again that female angel from the trailer is show but this time she is sad, implying she doesn’t like the Exterminations while Adam is happy with the idea. I wonder if this means that the female angel, while she seems to be okay with the Exterminations during the events of the show COULD eventually be remined that she wasn’t always like this and at the end of the season could become an angelic ally of Charlie and helps her get her redemption plan in motion on the Heaven side of things.

So there is another reason for the exterminations instead of just population control. This could mean that the popular idea of Lucifer and Lilith making the deal so they could have Charlie could be true as well.

The scene of sad Charlie having her eyes open when her heart beats must be symbolic of the day she came up with her redemption plan.

I think that line about “Lilith’s hope passing down to Charlie” could be much darker than it sounds. Yeah Lilith and Charlie want Hell to thrive, but what if while Charlie thinks working with Heaven to solve the population problem would be best for everyone, Lilith hoped Charlie would destroy Heaven and thinks peace is too submissive in her eyes? Just a random idea but it could be a reason if there is tension between the mother and daughter.

I wonder if that book Charlie is reading was actually made by her, like her POV of everything, or made by her parents? Sure maybe they altered some things but maybe this is how she or they really think about things? If not then I bet the author got an earful from Lucifer about making him a quitter though after seeing Ozzie and Bee, Lucifer could be less prideful than we think he is.

So just like in the pilot, it seems like Charlie has a stronger connection to her mother and wants to make her proud, even if my idea of them having different wants to make Hell thrive is different. Again going back to the trailer maybe they will both get what they want and realize that there are other options, causing the two to bond and spend more time in the next season.

Thinking back I personally think it would have been interesting if the scene of Charlie reading the story and saying she would make her mom proud had been a flashfoward situation, taking place before the season finale. It has been implied in the trailer that a big battle between Hell and the Exorcist will happen, so I would have liked the idea of Charlie reading the book to remind her that what she is doing is the right thing in the end, and if the book HAD been made by her it would have been something to inspire future demons and sinners in case she doesn’t make it. That would be awesome and again fits with what I said about her altering things in the story if she is the writer.

Still funny to hear Charlie curse.

I know I’m late on the VA thing but I’m still going to post my thoughts about them when they come up, like right now as Vaggie’s new voice strangely reminds me of Harley Quinn’s Poison Ivy and It doesn’t help that those two characters are a lot alike. At least it leads to fun fanart as I love both shows.

“person doesn’t know someone is in the room with them” cliché

This episode is confirmed to take place shortly after the pilot. Specifically a week according to Vaggie later on.

Lilith’s 7 year gap is concerning but given how Charlie and her family are immortal, it probably isn’t that bad to them. It actually fits with this funny headcanon idea of mine about how when Lucifer and Lilith have big fights, they won’t see each other for decades or centuries before apologizing, but to them it is the equivalent of a day or two. I am a bit concerned that while her parents think this isn’t that long, it IS to Charlie, who is technically still “young” seemingly being only a few centuries old. This also goes back to that theory I was going to save for later, but it’s implied that Lilith is on a mission to stop something or someone but could be disguised as someone we know or could appear later on. I think we should play it safe when we see a modern day Lilith and assume that it could be someone else pretending to be Lilith.

Charlie X Vaggie are so CUTE!

I mentioned this in my HH S1 trailer breakdown but I still find the part of the commercial of the one guy stabbing the other funny cause the guy being stabbed doesn’t seem to mind XD.

That pic in Al’s commercial of Charlie and Lucifer better be overexaggerating, or I say we riot!

Also Al’s new voice is okay, though I do hear the difference. Can’t say the same thing for Angel as it sounds really odd like an accent is trying to get through his voice.

Charlie having a rubber duck to represent her dad. WAIT HER DAD! Viv was right we did get him fatheAWWW. Touché Vivzie.

Husk and Niffty’s voices sound fine, Niffty’s being the most perfect so far.

I once brought up the idea of Charlie basing her teachings on Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy, I just want to bring that up as a possible thing they will do for rehabilitation since they don’t have any ideas how to at this moment.

Was the scene of Charlie with wild eyes a meme or refence to something? It was still pretty funny.

So Lucifer wants Charlie to meet Adam for him. On one hand this could just be him being lazy OR maybe he is trying to help Charlie in his own way. That or like I said before, maybe he thinks if Charlie realizes what she is up against, it could make her want to quit her redemption goal.

Despite her father being an angel/fallen angel, Charlie doesn’t know if angels have hearts. I wonder how much of Lucifer did change when he became a fallen angel.

Ought to bring this up now but since she was born and raised in Hell, though she sees the flaws, I feel like it might be a little bit hard for Charlie to see why Heaven wouldn’t want to make it better or bring the people there into Heaven.

Charlie’s song, while nice, has reminded me about this old fan idea people had about a possible future scene where Charlie sadly realizes that not EVERYONE could/should be redeemed. I thought I bring it up because I could see that coming up soon.

I think that is Blitzo in the scene where Charlie hitches a ride on the delivery truck. Speaking of which (looking at logo) :)

I didn’t bring this up in my HH S1 trailer breakdown because I didn’t think it was need, but now it is. TLDR I wonder if Pentagram City is now more like a “country” or all of the Pride Ring with towns and named areas acting more like states. Until we get an episode outside of it and into another circle of Pride (something referenced in Helluva Boss and the HH pilot trailer WAY back by Katie Killjoy) I’ll likely treat Pentagram City as the whole Pride Ring.

I think I brought this up before, but if there is a Heavenly emissary in Hell, then I wonder if there is one for Hell in the outskirts of Heaven? Could this building allow sinners to talk to people, like loved ones in Heaven? Something like this would be perfect for my OC Ratchet, as one of his goals is to talk to his deceased/murdered little brother again.

It’s funny seeing Adam eat, considering his mouth doesn’t look real and thus should work. Also yes I see Adam eating ribs, but I’m not making a joke about it because it is a bit cheesy.

Honestly we should have seen the hologram thing coming, since I bet no angel in Heaven (as of now) wants to be in Hell unless it’s during an Extermination.

IS ADAM FLIRTING WITH CHARLIE!!!! SOMEONE DO SOMETHING TO MAKE IT STOP!!!

Adam’s behavior here is making my “pre apple Adam being an immature child” theory look canon, don’t you agree?

I think we’re seeing the Lilith side of Charlie when she is pretend laughing.

Adam and Eve aren’t a thing anymore. I knew that was coming, but it is still a bummer to hear as it is predictable. No surprise but I wonder if they split after the Cain incident, as I’m starting to wonder if in this world, Cain was a lot like his father as he is now.

Though as 1D as he is, at least this makes Adam a good antagonist, unlike with Stella but that is getting WAY off topic. I do hope that Adam is just going to be the antagonist of this season, and after that he is either written off or given the Emperor Pilaf treatment and be demoted to a very, VERY minor threat. This way other antagonist could arrive leading to new challenges for Charlie and the others.

AGAIN SOMEONE DO SOMETHING, GET LUCIFER OR LILITH!!!

Charlie seems to be thinking like her dad when she tries to use Adam’s ego to get her project started.

Though mainly for laughs, I’m still going to guess that cameras, being on camera, or being watched/the focus of is going to have a connection to Niffty’s backstory. One really sad theory is that an older guy she liked was a stalker who eventually abducted her and showed her off to his friends and though Niffty eventually escaped and killed him, their struggle caused a fire to break out which would kill her too. This obviously messed her up and likely resulted in her obtaining something like Stockholm syndrome and having her mind regress to that of a child, explaining some of her personality quirks.

Just a personal thought, but I hope later on the writers will stop calling sinners as demons and just call them sinners or humans, as I feel like it is going to lead to problems later on. I mean what if one day we get a character that looks like a Hellborn demon but is actually a sinner… OMG LIKE BAXTER!

Al just being Al, which is still concerning. Heck even his “deal’ with Vaggie sounds like there is more to it, and I don’t mean that thing about how deals make people stronger. Then there is the way he said ‘your choice” though that could be the acting.

Some things here. The O on the Director’s chair is shaped like an eye which could be referencing Al’s cane or something else, Niffty refencing Marilyn Monroe, and the return of the characters outfits from “Alastor’s Reprise”.

Insert “Lute being prideful for not accounting that Lucifer is an angel” comment here.

So how would having a former sinner in Heaven be any different then how Adam acts? I bet it will be more complicated than that. I once brought up the idea of demons being scared of sinners because of their potential, so maybe Heaven has a similar thing? Maybe Heaven doesn’t know HOW to loosen restrictions to get more people or sinners into Heaven, as when they made the rules they didn’t have the foresight to make sure things could change with the times. I do recall a quote from the Bible that was about how souls couldn’t get into Heaven for a time until Jesus arrived and opened the gates. Heck there is another saying where Jesus DID get some people out of Hell which caused some quakes, maybe he coined the term Hellquakes. I wonder if a great sacrifice will have to be made in order to get worthy souls out of Hell? The Jesus thing also adds more to my idea of Jesus and Charlie being allies later in the series.

Though short, you can see during Adam’s song that Zhu Li, I mean Lute, does have a bit of a fun side deep down in that serious soldier personality.

Charlie is asking questions before I can type them down.

How high ranking is Adam in Heaven’s hierarchy if he can change the date of Exterminations? You think he would have to run that with other people like the archangels or seraphim.

After what she went through, it was nice to see Charlie happCOME ON!

This was going to come up eventually but I have mix feelings about Brandon Rogers being the new VA for Katie Killjoy. One main reason is that I personally see too many similarities between Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss (especially with the characters) and now having a VA from HB be in HH makes that list bigger. I also wonder if this decision was made as a kind of “damage control” since last time the character of Katie Killjoy was on screen she said something homophobic which got people angry, even though the series is in Hell and there are logically going to be people like that there. HOWEVER I understand why he was chosen, one being that he has played Katie Killjoy like characters already and I do like that they got someone that is easy to contact and has experience in such a role to do it then someone new. This has also strangely started making me connect Katie Killjoy to the Monarchs from the Venture Bros., like the daughter they never had who never went into costumed villainy (the news world can be evil though) which makes no sense but I LOVE IT anyway. I mean she acts like The Monarch but with a joke voice like Dr. Mrs. the Monarch, and the fact that she smokes and is insect themed just adds more to it XD.

AGAIN how did Adam get this through so fast? I wonder if Charlie will be blamed for this next episode? Eventually it will be revealed but I hope they do it sooner than later, as I do recall a screenshot of the Overlords talking about the Exorcist.

Also I feel like a line should have been added explaining that the upcoming Extermination will be worse than usual. I mean we the viewers know that but if it wasn’t for that Lute and Adam scene in the end, it would have looked like everyone is just panicking about something common happening earlier than usual. Maybe they do offscreen, going back to that Overlord meeting.

An angel drone? Is this a Sumerian mythology refence?

A dead Exorcist! Though not a surprise given it was spoiled via the trading cards along with it appearing MUCH earlier than I thought it would, it’s still interesting as now we have a mystery.

I find hard to believe that no one took down an Exorcist until now given how powerful sinners can be, but then again the writers seem to be making the forces of good/Heaven really OP which I’m not like that much. I don’t it would have hurt the story if it was revealed that while there are a few angelic casualties in every Extermination, the number has risen over the past several years which has now made the Exorcist army (not Adam because he probably sucks at his job and never noticed it) worried leading to the earlier Extermination plan.

It also seems that angels have golden blood, like the ichor in Greek myth. Looks like my headcanon of Heaven/Hell inspiring the various other myths of this world is canon!

This episode was a good starter for the season and series. While it feels a lot like another pilot at times, that is fine since it’s been years since the actual pilot, and the episode does add more new info to the series (a benefit of having a short season) like another glimpse at what Heaven is like and how they feel about Hell, along with adding in a situation that now effects everyone and can lead to future situations/interactions.

We also now have an interesting mystery going on about who could have killed that Exorcist. I think it’s likely going to be someone in Heaven wanting an excuse to attack Hell, I mean Lute really hates them so she could be the one or others suspects are that angel from the S1 trailer/was seen at the beginning of the episode and an old character of Vivzie’s named Roo who apparently represents all evil, and who people have been thinking is coming up soon. Heck maybe an actual demon like a goetia did it while trying to escape, or this was a result of accidental friendly fire? This is going to be fun.

The only negatives things about this episode are that I do agree that some of the new VAs, though talented, are kind of out of place for the characters especially Angels. I bet we will get use to them over time though. Then there are the very small things like how Adam has so much power to do things, and either changing a few scenes or adding a line.

I have one more theory I have to say before I end this. I think this whole season is going to be some kind of Heavenly challenge/test for Charlie. I wouldn’t be surprised if Heaven IS tired of Adam’s attitude especially when compared to how nice the daughter of Lucifer and Lilith of all people is, but they can’t discipline him given he is the leader of their army. This doesn’t help that they also see signs of a potential future threat coming up (likely why Lilith has been gone for so long) and think that Adam won’t be able to handle it, so some angels think Charlie should be the one trained to deal with this force while others think they should stick with Adam and just prepare for when he messes up. This is why the higher ups are allowing Adam’s early extermination to happen because they want to see if Charlie can handle this situation, along with seeing her skills at being a leader and most importantly see if she will still be her nice self in the process. If she fails then thing stay as they are, but if she passes then the angelic forces will give Charlie the chance to try and convince the forces of Heaven to go with her redemption plan, and demote/get rid of Adam as karma. Again it would be a way to get rid of Adam as a villain and have someone else fill in the role next season. Same for how the writers could use this to lead this to a bigger story like a GOW Ragnarök like reveal where Charlie finds out the generic “end of days” prophecy is a lie and the real prophecy says something big will come to destroy everything in Heaven, Hell, and Earth and it’s debated on if she could be the one destined to fight it and save everything.

This was a big review and there a still 3 episodes left so you want to keep up to date, give me a follow.

What were your thoughts on the episode? Though there are a lot, do you agree with any of my thoughts/ideas here? Was there anything I missed that you would want to hear my thoughts on?

#hazbin hotel #long post warning #vivziepop #hazbin hotel charlie #hazbin hotel vaggie #hazbin hotel angel dust #hazbin hotel alastor #hazbin hotel adam #hazbin hotel lute #hazbin hotel lilith #lilith morningstar

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