#oh also jason todd from dc comics lol | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

kittycat-in-the-dark · 11 months

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Jason is a character that seems to be very divisive in fandom... like he is not the only one, but oh boy is he the one that most of the times brings the extremes in people in fandom. Either people only talk about the bad he did or only look at him as a victim and try to justify/excuse every action he has taken. Of course, there are always people that can be more reasonable and properly discuss both the good and the bad Jason has done. But the extremes and their popularity never go away... And in all of this “fandom mess”, the canon department, and the fact that DC cannot seem to figure out what to do with him, isn’t helping either, especially in moving his character forward from his current status.

Anyways, i want to make a "list" of how Jay actually is like in canon. Also to point out that i am probably gonna forget something and that i am kinda gonna follow the most known stories and writing of Jason coming from post-crisis and Rebirth because they seem to be the more "concise and logical" canon Jay was right now (thou be aware that the New-52 is still canon to Rebirth)... like i know that canon selectivity is what also brings wrong and/or one-dimensional takes... but i am trying my best with this "overall look" into the character. My desire to make this post comes from some thoughts that have been on my mind about Jason, his canon and how he is perceived in the fandom for a while, and i guess that this post can be seen as a "personal liberation" of sorts. So, humour me a little...

And i suppose this post can also act as a guide to Jason's character in canon with some of my commentary. I hope it can be somehow helpful! *also, if people wanna skip my ramblings and just see some comic suggestions, the list of the comics i wrote about in this post is at the bottom of the post,, also with links to a character reading guide for Jason made by another user on Tumblr and with a link where you could read them.

Warning: i have to say that i never did this type of post so, again, sorry if i miss something and my writing is confusing. Also, aside from criticising some fanon interpretations, i will have parts where i also criticise dc's writing, because we cannot have a complete dc comics' post without criticising both sides, lmao. Also, English is not my first language so be warned of spelling errors as well. Also, because the subject matter of this post is who it is,, warning for some controversial subjects and takes! Also, that this is gonna be a very long post…

NOTE: this is obviously gonna have spoilers for a lot of Jason's comics. And because this is Jason and DC i am talking about, there are trigger warnings for death, violence, sexism, classism, racism, domestic abuse and SA mention (though i won't write about them in that much depth, but just to be aware that these are gonna be addressed in this post). Also, some of my thoughts in this can be very scattered, so sorry if something is confusing. And even if i talk about some events i am not gonna recapitulate them properly, only the important bits and/or just the characterization of Jason. This post is gonna be organized by points named after the comics era and the comic’s title, following the publication date of their first issue, so this is not gonna be 100% Jason’s chronological order in universe.

Obviously, some parts of this post might come off as my personal opinions and interpretations, thou when that is the case i usually point it out. I mean, actually most of this is my interpretation of canon (lol), thou a lot of the things i talk about are from the general interpretation that most people seem have of the comics, and includes just some specific comments on certain subjects that are more my opinion (thou i think it's pretty obvious when that is the case) and i had some parts where i linked some posts from other blogs made by other people because i think they are better at explaining and expanding those points than me, if you are curious about getting more details or a better explanation on those parts (thou i didn't put links to other posts in all of them), also, some of these posts also inspired me into making this “big Jason Todd post” and they are all credited to their respective creators at end of this post.

The purpose of this post is to put "all" (or almost all) the information on Jason's overall characterization through the current canon, so i am not gonna go into much detail on everything. Sorry for dragging this out so much but i wanna be as clear as possible!! (And to the fans that are more versed in the mess that is DC comics, feel free to correct me if it is necessary or to add to my post in reblogs. I would be very grateful if you guys did so.)

Anyways, moving on to the “list”..

Post-crisis Jason Todd

Robin Jason: i mean.. i have seen more and more people doing posts about how Jason is not so angry as Robin, or you know (even better) people discussing that "there is no angry Robin", which i appreciate so much. Like, none of the Robins have anger as a prominent characteristic, and when they are angry it is for good and personal, and just generally understanding reasons. Jason's main reason for his anger was towards the Injustices he witnesses every day and that he himself suffered since a young age and before becoming Robin. Another thing is that, well.. Bruce and the narrative are kinda "weird", aka injust, towards Jason's anger. Always pointing it as his "fatal flaw", and Bruce instead of addressing and trying to understand why his son feels and acts like this he gives him general speeches about justice and that "they can't be judge, jury and executioner". Though, i don't want to villainize Bruce in any way for this, as it is understandable that he comes from a very different perspective from Jay and he did try his best at being a dad (especially more during this time than later) and in giving Jay a loving home. Thou, one thing i will never understand and that still gets under my skin a little is,, how tf didn't Bruce realize sooner that Jason's anger was related to losing his parents and not having the chance to grieve them properly... like, i get that Bruce is Human, he is allowed to fail, but you would think he would have understood better considering he relates to that pain, you know. For not saying that Bruce also was kinda the one to "make Jason's anger worse", in the sense that, like i said before, Bruce focuses too much on this idea that Jason is being so consumed by his anger, when that is mostly not the case until Bruce starts and keeps talking about "channelling anger and grief towards vigilantism", like i am not necessarily saying that Bruce caused or was the one to make Jason's anger worse, but to a certain extent by projecting on to him he definitely contributed to make Jason more "guided by anger in the field", especially after Jason found out that Bruce hid from him that Two-Face killed his dad. And ya, Bruce did discuss with Alfred about if he made a mistake by making Jason Robin in A Death in the Family, but by then it was already too late to fix what he helped "break", in a sense. Also, him prioritising going after the Joker instead of looking for and later staying with his son in order to work together in saving Sheila (and as we all already know this is not the first time Bruce prioritises his mission over his kids, especially with Jason). Then, Jay is left to go on his own and, basically, ends up sacrificing everything to meet and save his biological mom, only to end up beaten and blown up by the Joker after she betrayed him.

Though, what should be the main take away from Jason's Robin run is that he is just a sweet kid that cares about people, to the point that in most missions with Batman he often stays behind to give medical care to victims and bystanders while Bats runs after the villains, but that can have a little bit of a temper that is mostly linked to his trauma from growing up in a difficult situation (poor, parents probably used to fight, mom sick, dad not present because he went to work for a mob boss, being needed to fend for himself on the streets and losing his parents). And that anger was made worse by Bruce's brand of justice, that he simultaneously uses to deal with his own grief, and Bruce instead of understanding, and then understanding when it was too late, that that was not what Jason needed to heal and have a good life, and ignoring/not realising that, even before meeting Bruce, he already had a "sense of justice" of his own (see it in how he helped Batman in the story they first met, when he realizes that Ma Gunn is running a criminal institution where she "recruits" young boys to work for her, i mean Jay stopping Ma is what made Bruce take Jason in in the first place, so..). As well as that Jay is a kid that appreciates living and having a new family with Bruce and Alfred and enjoys to have the chance to go back to school and learn new things. Also, i think it's important to note that before he died, and Jay was in the warehouse with his mother, he got up after being beaten bloody by the Joker and put his body between his mom and the bomb in order to protect her... this poor boy was ready to die if it meant that he could give a little bit of a chance to his mom to survive, even if she betrayed his trust.. like, i can't ..this boy deserves so much better. And to add to it, Jay, after he returns from the dead, says that he doesn't blame his mother for his death and that he still loves her despite everything... (and this in comics where the writers remember that Sheila exists/existed or don't outright erase her...).

Gotta add that the writers putting the blame on Jason and his choices for his death is so wrong and horrible.. like ya he did some stupid and, in the moment, bad choices, but he was a 15-year-old that lost his parents and that had hope to meet his biological mom, for crying out loud!! How can you act like he deserved this fate just because he is "reckless and angry"?! Also, how in any capacity was anger involved in A Death in the Family when Jason went looking for his mom... like tf? Like ya, he was angry but only when he heard Bruce and Alfred discussing to bench him, and then he just left to get some fresh air to calm down instead of arguing, so ya... And the writing should stop "acting" as if it's not like every single adult that was supposed to help and look out for him failed him in some way.. you know... i mean ya, he was a teenager capable of making his own choices and of recognizing his mistakes, but it still doesn't change that at this point he was in a pretty vulnerable situation and to be honest Bruce wasn't really helping for the most part.

And going a little back to Bruce and Alfred discussing “if it was a good idea to make Jason Robin”, i have seen some discussions in fandom, where because of this and what happened to Jason in A Death in the Family and after he was resurrected, that Jason should have never be made or allowed to continue to be Robin, and that if he was benched and Bruce “left” him only as his son that things would have been better and he would have had “his happy ending with his new family”. But the thing is,, the problem here is not Jason being Robin or being a “bad Robin” to begin with… like ya, there is a rather dumb insistence on the writers on painting Jason in a worse light as Robin, especially when they were doing so as a comparison factor between Jason and Tim, once the latter took on the title. But, Jason was a good Robin! HE WAS A GOOD ROBIN!!! AND HE LOVED BEING ROBIN!! He did is duties, he helped people, he was happy being Robin. He listened to Bruce,, and the only times “he went on his own” was in “good faith to do the right thing and impress Bruce” (like when he captured Scarecrow on his own and brought him to the Batcave), and when he went after his mother, but on this last one, it relates to a more personal and emotional situation, so it’s understandable. And, like i pointed out before, the ONLY ONE talking about “USING ANGER AND HURT AND CHANNELING THEM TOWARDS VIGILANTISISM” WAS BRUCE,,, BRUCE STARTED THIS BECAUSE HE COULDN’T UNDERSTAND THAT HIS BOYS NEEDED DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEAL WITH THEIR GRIEF AND MOVE ON!! Because this man, as we will see as well later and we, generally, already know,, is very hard to move when it comes to his own convictions. This is why, i also think it’s wrong or horrible to call Jason “Bruce’s biggest mistake/failure”, because, while Bruce did fail his son in many ways, the way this phrase frames Jason as “Bruce’s mistake” is quite reductive and goes back to the “Bruce only took Jason in so he wouldn’t become a criminal” and, again, that somehow Jason always had “something wrong” with him that doesn’t “allow” him to be Robin without failure,, and because Bruce was so focused on this idea about Jason, he basically forgot that this boy needed more than vengeance, just like he did with Dick. But Dick had the luck of having had for a long time close friends to help him move on without Bruce, Jason on the other hand mostly had only Bruce as his closest one,,, so my point here is: Bruce failed at realizing that his son needed other ways to deal with his emotions, and more specifically his grief, he needed other perspectives from different people, he needed closer friends of his age and, perhaps, of similar background, he needed other support systems,, and Bruce didn’t allow him to have them in a sense with his “never changing view on and dedication to justice”,,, like it’s even confirmed in one story from Batman Annual, about Jay going to school, and the kids there thinking he is very weird because, usually, after school he immediately left for home and never joined any clubs,, they thought he was the weird kid that spent time alone in his huge manor with his old butler, because he went home immediately after classes ended because of his Robin duties,, and Jason did express in the same story that he would have enjoyed being able to join a club after a teacher told him he needed to join one, more specifically he wanted to do and participate in a theatre play, but he never did…. So ya, you would think that Bruce and Alfred would have realized that Jason needed other connections and other things to explore and do other than Robin stuff in order to become better and heal. He was a kid!!! He needed this type of things in his life!!

Now that i got the basics of Robin Jason, let's move on to Red Hood:

Lost Days and Under the Red Hood - the Winick era (i guess i can call it that, lol): when it comes to these stories, i have a very dislike/hate-like/love (or just overall complicated, lmao) relationship with it (and i think most people do, i guess... or at least the people from the circles i have been in). And that is because... well, despite being Jason's revival story and having some awesome moments, such as Talia helping Jay, Jay saving the lives of some college students and from being framed as bombers, freeing kids from traffickers, exploring his desire for revenge against Bruce and Joker, and how he thinks about "how can Bruce let Joker get away when he is taking away/breaking so many families", as examples. But.....you probably already know what's coming *sigh*... the writing is also awful because Talia, after putting Jay in the Pit, is portrayed in a very disgusting way, imo, in some panels. And while i sympathise with her for how her father manipulated her through the feelings she has towards Bruce, and just how he generally treats her honestly, i hated seeing her getting involved with Jay that way (aka sleeping with him)... when i saw those panels i wanted to gouge my eyes out (though thank everything it was retconned later), but i gotta say (and i apologize for the aggressiveness): Winick you fucking suck for what you did to Talia!! (sorry i know this doesn't do anything, but i needed to let it out.. and ya, i know Morrison did her way way worse, but while Winick wrote her better, that type of relationship between Talia and Jay felt so unnecessary, like she is supposed to be more of a protector, mentor and mother figure, or that was what i remember thinking when i first read Lost Days, until those panels appeared. Though, it is also possible to interpret that Talia got involved with Jay that way because of her own traumatic event that she went through in Batman: Death and the Maidens, that being that she was tortured and brainwashed by her sister Nyssa (which was horrifying) and made to fight the most important people to her, aka Bruce and Ra's, against her will... also, she slept with Jason because she blames Bruce for how her father has killed in that story,, so it can be seen as both Jason and Talia getting involved that way because of their shared hatred and disappointment towards Bruce, also because they are both messed-up and traumatized people,, but, ya know, it’s still weird and disgusting as fuck, especially if you were like me and took their relationship as mother-son since the beginning of the story.. so, RIP to those of us who did that; also, this comic was written in the late 2000s, of course healthy and “legal” relationships weren’t a priority, the priority was sexy times because sexy times… and I hate it!!*more about this particular subject later).

But ignoring how Winick ruined Talia with those specific actions, i am glad that most part of the fandom seem to choose to discuss more about Talia as a mentor and protector of Jay during that time, even if she failed at some things (such as making Jay desire revenge against Bruce in "her way" many times, and not in the murderous way Jay was at first thinking, and actually helping him with his situation and feelings) and even if, at first, her motivations were more selfish and related more to her feelings and relationship with Bruce. I mean, if she hadn’t stuck with Jay, trained him, protected him from Ra's and put him in the Pit, Jay would have been (most probably) dead again and for good this time, considering that Ra's wanted to get rid of him in order to avoid "starting a war with the Bat". Plus, she put him in the Pit because while she interacted with catatonic Jason she saw that he still had capacity for empathy/emotions, while her father dismissed him as an emotionless machine and mindless puppet, and was running out of patience with "Talia's little experiment" (as Ra's also called Jay)... just to make it clear that Talia shouldn't be as demonized as she is when it comes to her relationship with Jason, and that she was the only one that didn’t give up on him.

Though, i still think it's important to realize the ways Talia manipulated Jay, such as Talia telling Jay "You remain unavenged!" when he was very confused after being “brought back” by the pit, giving Jay information about the new Robin and about Joker still being alive, but she never once mentioned, or really no one says to Jay, that Bruce did go after Joker with a vengeance after his death and that Superman had to be there to ground Bruce to not do the unthinkable for himself (aka kill Joker), and the many times she tries to make Jay change his way of revenge on Bruce by stalling him with her missions and teachings when she realized that Jay was "going a little too far" for her taste, and she finally, literally at the end of the story, repeatedly encouraged him "to become the new Batman Gotham City needs". Also, i want to point out that the "Jason is angry because he was replaced so quickly" is only a big deal/important in Lost Days, because later, and mainly, that turns to just another reminder that nothing changed after his death, and that Bruce was no problem keeping a Robin around while Joker is still alive and going about his usual routine. Like, he doesn't even care about getting Robin back, which is something he says to Tim in the Titans Tower Fight (that i will talk about more in the topic about it, lol). And there is an argument to be made of either or not Jay would have been better if Joker was killed, maybe to an extent but definitely not fully, especially with his problems related to Bruce.

*Going a little back about Talia and Jason’s intimate relationship in Lost Days: This relationship (because of those intimate moments that i mentioned before) became very controversial in fandom, being that some people see it in pure disgust and others think it’s okay… the people on the first category (myself included) feel this way because we took the relationship between them since the beginning as mother and son, which is also supported by the fact that Talia is depicted both in a Lost Days cover and in Rebirth as holding Jay in the Lazarus Pit in the position of the sculpture “La Pietà” by Michelangelo of Virgin Mary cradling her dead son after his crucifixion, and all of the endearing moments Talia and Jason have when he is catatonic seemed more like platonic love between an adult and a child/teen. While on the other side people believe that it is acceptable because they never saw the relationship that way, because she was never a mother figure to Jason to begin with, and that when the intimacy happened Jason was already of age, and also, because of the time period that they were mostly apart while Jay was training, it means that Jason is way over 18 when they are shown sleeping together and that the relationship between them couldn’t have developed in the way the first group sees it… and also because we are talking about a character, aka Talia, that comes from a different culture and was a different way of life, status and relationships, to what we do here in the west. And like, on the contrary of what some seem to believe or usually focus on about in this controversial topic, there is no problem with Talia sleeping with other men while she still has feelings for Bruce, like it is implied she does in Lost Days with that assassin that works for her, because well, Bruce and Talia aren’t actually together anymore in this story, but also that Talia wouldn’t be the first dc character to have multiple romantic and/or intimate relationships,, so there “being a problem with her sleeping with others because of Bruce” is a stupid argument and such a big double standard that shouldn’t even be brought up at this point… like who tf said that Talia needs to be fucking devoted to Bruce only and for forever?? That is just a sexist view, especially considering that male heroes tend to sleep around with a lot of women, either in a “playboy, maintaining their identity way” or “because they feel like it and/or actually have feelings for the women they are sleeping with”. So, NO, the argument here shouldn’t even bring up Bruce or Talia’s feelings for Bruce as what is or feels wrong when we see Talia and Jason sleep together, at least not in the way previously described. Plus, even Winick himself says that the audience is supposed to feel uncomfortable with seeing them together like that, even if it is for different reasons than the ones i mentioned above:

For those playing at home, Jason Todd, at the end of Red Hood: Lost Days, and Talia slept together. I did that because it was really disturbing and to shine a light on the fact that these are not really well people. A lot of people didn’t like that, which was correct. You weren’t supposed to like that. That was supposed to be, ‘oh God, stop that, what are you doing?’ It really was. That was grudge sex all the way around. As well as, for Talia, her reasons, being that Bruce had wound up inadvertently killing her father and she was ragingly angry with him and went from love to pure hate and still loving him at the same time. And Jason, given the opportunity to have sex with just about the only woman who Bruce has had sex with or really cares about, 'Yeah, I’ll go there.

(after the interviewer says: He’s like, 'yeah, cause I hate that guy.’)

Yeah! 'I hate that guy!’ And I think that Jason probably had the hots for Talia. She’s hot, he doesn’t exactly have a lot of relationships going on – It’s not a good thing for either of them. These are two people who murder people, two people who are screwed up, screwed up emotionally. There’s this question that why would he do that and Talia only loves Bruce. She might only love Bruce, but she does have sex with other people because that’s just sex. And we’re all grown-ups here. I think those who shake their fist and get angry at this kind of thing might be some of our older readers. I’m an older reader, but I acknowledge the fact that people aren’t that chaste and grow up: people have sex. That’s why I ended it like that; It was messed up. – Judd Winick in the Comicvine podcast

And there it is, from the guy that wrote the comic. It’s supposed to be something wrong and it is… we are allowed to say it is wrong and to hate it/feel uncomfortable because of it, either being for the difference in age and relationship interpretation and/or just the context of the moment with the reasons that Winick brought up in the interview. But we also need to move on from it, because we (me included) tend to fixate on this part too much when talking about Lost Days, also this was written 13 years ago!! Like damn… but anyway,, i think it’s time to move on… plus, Jay staying so much with Talia, or at least Talia and Jay sleeping together, was retconned when, in the New-52, dc made Talia guide Jason to the All Caste to train.

Jason and the “Pit Madness”

I gotta say that, personally, i am not a big fan of the, dubbed by the fanon, "Pit Madness". Like, it is obvious, and it is pointed out by some characters in the story, that Jay became "cold and a psycho" after emerging from the Pit. So ya, i guess we can agree that the Pit can change a person's perspective and emotions to a more "dark turn" (i guess i can call it that), but it obviously doesn't cause/originate "bad thoughts and actions" or make the person a "uncontrollable monster that kills" and that can "snap out of it and become good again", as i interpret that what the Pit does, is make the person more focused/influenced by their dark corners with their worse experiences and feelings (though this might just be my interpretation, but i did see other people that see it this way as well)... anyway the point i am trying to make is that "Pit Madness", or at least what fanon thinks it is, doesn't exist, especially because if it did, it would just take away any agency Jason and any other character have over their actions after emerging from the Pit. So ya... also, even if Jay has a colder demeanour, he keeps saving people while on Talia's missions (even if he refuses to admit that he is “following his Robin roots” with these actions) and even has a moment where he spares the life of a criminal because he only worked as a driver for mercenaries, so it is clear that Jason is not just “blindly killing any criminal he comes across” in these missions, as he understands that not all of them are “that horrible and just need to survive in one way or another”. He also keeps reflecting on his emotions and thoughts towards Bruce and Joker (and heck, he even has moments where he directly compares himself to his past Robin-self and Bruce's ideals and teachings... how can some people put all of this under "influence of a green magic pit" when this is all Jason and Jason's being and thoughts..), so he being "cold and a psycho" and being that because of the pit and being "evil" because of Talia and her manipulation just gets disproven. Or least, it proves that these aren't the main factors that make Jason "evil" or start killing or have the desire for revenge against Bruce and Joker. Also, Talia manipulating him and having more selfish motivations while at the same time genuinely growing to care about Jason is plausible, which is what happened in this story, because she is a multidimensional character that walks a grey line, just like Jay. And well, she is a character that is constantly tied to love and so she is very caring and physical with her affections, and very dedicated to her loved ones,, unless you are a dumb writer that wants to make her Ra’s al Ghul 2.0 and a horrible mother and ex-lover *cough* Morrison *cough*.

Going to UTRH, i think that the story is pretty good and i like the conflict between Jason and Bruce,, especially the final confrontation (though the crisis event at end took me out of it). BUT, i think that what needs to be understood better about this story is the following things:

1. Just because Jason has trauma, that doesn't justify all the lives he takes, especially when those lives are just random crooks that most probably (or at least a part of them) are one in the first place, because they felt forced to be in order to survive in Gotham City (also a lot of them might have families to take care of). And so, the writing and Jason's attitude towards them is quite dismissive of the fact that these are people and that not all of them might be in this situation by choice (also, it is obvious that Jay doesn't kill any big villain, like Joker or Black Mask, because dc cannot kill their iconic villains, but like... idk man, the crook killing was too much in this story...). Also, this kinda goes against on how Jason was going about killing criminals in Lost Days, though this might be because in UTRH he was more focused on taking down Black Mask and controlling the drug trade, which, besides recruiting already existing drug dealers and their crooks, also included taking out the ones working for the opposition… so, even if it is a big jump from how Jason “usually does things”, like usual, Jason always was a reason why he kills certain criminals, he doesn’t kill randomly. Though, that doesn’t invalidate the position made at the beginning of this point

2. Though, i also feel like the writer is also kinda dismissive towards Jason's trauma and his need for his father to "save him and show his love to him", which i think is what leads a lot of people to see it as "Jason is throwing a tantrum or over exaggerating or just wrong because he is too emotional, blá blá blá"

3. I believe that there is no "right answer" to the conflict between Red Hood and Batman. Like, both bring up both good and bad points to their situation and beliefs; also there are more ways to look at this confrontation than just the morality one, such as the more emotional conflict between father and son, and how it is more about their love for each other than the Joker or morality; though, i have to bring up Bruce choosing to uphold his beliefs by stopping Jay from killing Joker, instead of choosing to truly help his son, just like before in A Death in the Family.. and it's kinda ironic how he ends up (probably) killing Jason at the end. Also, when it comes to the never ending debate of either or not Bruce should have killed Joker for Jason, i like to point out this gem of a post that puts it well when saying that Bruce should not be forced to do something he doesn't want to do and that he knows is something that is gonna ruin him for the rest of his life. Also, that Bruce knows (when the writers want to admit) that he can make mistakes, including when going to beat up someone when he thinks they are guilty (also pointing to this other gem), and that Bruce not killing is also a great contrast to Gotham’s corruption of the “powers of Gotham City that were supposed to protect people, but they are corrupt and kill for “no good reason”, and people dying by it is seen as “normal”/or just another day in this city” (bringing up this as well). And i know that it seems like i am on Bruce's side here, but i am not,, i am trying to be understanding towards both parties in this conflict.. also, to go back to Jason, this is not just about his revenge or his relationship with Bruce as it is (like i pointed out in the Lost Days part) about Bruce letting this cycle of murder and pain continue by "keeping Joker alive", it's about all the victims of the Joker (which includes Jason), it's the "How many more need to die and suffer for something to change?!". For not saying that Jason sees "Bruce killing Joker because he took him away from Bruce" as a way to show/prove his love for Jay......... (also, i saw somewhere that some people claim that Jason "forced Bruce in a position where he has to Kill Joker", and like.. how?? i mean, ya Jay did orchestrate all of this crazy plan to bring him, Joker and Bruce together, but he didn't force him, what Jay did was to make Bruce a question,, aka, “does he choose Jason or his morals? And is he important enough to Bruce?” Plus, i think it’s not even that sure what even Jason himself expected out of this,, like him knowing how Bruce is about his code, was he really sure he would have his desired outcome here?? i mean, i think Jay probably knew that Bruce would have never killed, but still went with this plan most probably guided by his feelings and his need to feel like he belongs and has people that care about him, idk.. there are many things and perspectives that can be put on Jason’s plan and desires here, so ya)... The point is that people should stop looking at this confrontation as if there is only "one right answer" and without considering the two characters' different points of view overall and how they can reflect into this situation specifically. Because both Jason and Bruce are simultaneously right and wrong about a lot of things here, either be it in an emotional or in a moral perspective or both together (i am gonna "shut up" about this now, because this confrontation has so many complexities in it and so many other people have talked about it way better than i can and this post is already getting long enough..... so, moving on to the next point)

4. Jason doesn't have caring about innocents (or women and children) as a priority in this story. Honestly, i think he showed more care towards random people in Lost Days than in UTRH. Though, i want to emphasize that just because i say this, it doesn't mean that i am trying to downplay Jason's love and care for innocent people and his desire for love and family for himself, i am just pointing out the impression the writing gives me in UTRH when it comes to what Jay prioritizes throughout most of the story, even if one of his demands is "don't deal to children or near schools" when taking over drug trades (also, when it comes to this, some questions: why doesn't he demand to not deal to others as well, and specifically to addicts? Aren't they like the most at-risk group when it comes to these trades? And isn't it a little bit fucked up that with Jay's background (his mom dying because of taking drugs) that he became a drug dealer? Like, okay, fine... i guess it might be justified by his philosophy of "i am fighting crime by controlling it", but i mean.. i just think people should talk more about Jason's flaws when it comes to his "main mission" (or one of) that he claims to have in UTRH, because some things don't seem to add up, ya know? Also, he kills his own dealers way too many times..). But ya, protecting kids (or other groups of people) isn't his main mission in this story, his main mission is to get under Bruce's skin and show that his methods work better than his, alongside the fact that Jay is just a hurt and emotional teenager that is thinking more about his own desires and needs than others and how those others can be pulled into his “war on crime”

5. I know that the last point can come off as me downgrading Jason’s achievements in this story, but that is not my intention, because yes, what Jason did and the plans he put into action and at such a very young age are very impressive, especially how he managed to get at Batman with them, but i put more emphasis on his flaws here because people don’t seem to talk about them much

6. This should be obvious at this point, but while UTRH is one of Jason's essential stories for being his return to Gotham and Bruce and in how he brought up an interesting perspective against Batman and his code, this story alone should not be seen as the "definitive characterization" for Jason, or the only "right way" or wtv. Like, i am not saying this to discourage people of talking about it or Jason's characterization here, i am saying this more in the sense that some people in fandom seem to be forever stuck on this era of Jason, and with some kinda limited and/or one-dimensional takes on this story and especially of the conflict between Jason and Bruce, when there is a lot more to him than these 2 stories (UTRH and Lost Days)

(obviously, Winick wrote more comics with Jason than these 2, but i put them in the "Winick era" section because they are his "most definitive" works for Jay, I mean they really are the main comics he was the main writer of, lol… just to clarify my "category system")

Also, i want to say that i might have come off as kinda "against" these stories or Winick's writing. But on contrary of what it might seem, i actually enjoyed reading these stories (as i mentioned at the beginning of each part for Lost Days and UTRH), even if they have their problems.. plus, my points here aren't so much of a critique of the writing as it is of general fanon interpretations that i have seen online and that imo don't seem right... and i actually think Winick did a pretty good job with Jason, especially in these 2 stories, as he paints Jason as more of an anti-hero with pretty reasonable points,, even if some ways that Jason was shown felt a little bit too much of “showing how he is repeating the cycle of violence” (like,, did he really need to kill all of those random crooks??).

But then the next writers looked at UTRH and decided to turn him into an outright villain... because why not? (ufff)

Entering Jason's "full villain" era:

Titans Tower: a lot of fanon tends to make the Titans Tower fight between Tim and Jason this big traumatic event for Tim, even thou he literally didn't care much and was more pissed with it than anything (plus he had actual traumatic events that happened to him at that time that mattered more, such as his dad dying). Also, this fight is just another of "annoying villain is bothering me with psychological games and a beating when i have better shit to worry about" for Tim. Plus, Jason did it to test the new Robin to see what he is made of and what makes him better... and Jay ends up complimenting Tim for being good and having friends (also, Jay is jealous that Tim got what he didn’t get to have himself as Robin, after all he does make the speech of “you had a dad that looked after you, went to private school and slept on a bed, while i was trying to survive on the streets”)... so ya... thou, this attack, was obviously done by Jason as another way to get at Bruce for replacing him so quickly (like, i don't even think Jay was that much of a personal problem with Tim, it's always tied to Bruce), but more importantly because Jason believes that, after his horrible death, Bruce shouldn't have allowed for there to be a new Robin. And I think it is interesting how Jason also brings up the fact that the heroes didn’t bother to remember him properly as he was as an hero and as a person, being that he wasn’t even remembered as a Titan,,, i mean, he wasn’t with the Titans much during his Robin days, but the times he was with them he was very excited about it and did a pretty good job working with them, like the least they could have done after finding out Jay was dead was to make a memorial of him as Robin and as Dick’s brother, and also because people talked about him as a “cautionary tale”, like I think most people would be pissed that they weren’t remembered properly as they truly were after dying. Also, Jason does bring up some got points about the existence of Robin in Batman’s crusade.

But, if you put aside the possible personal reasons for why Jay did this, this hole fight is actually pretty ridiculous... like Jay looking like grown ass man and wearing the Robin suit, him ripping his clothes that were over the Robin suit and Tim not giving two shits... like, in insight i don't think this issue (because it happens in one single issue) should be taken as seriously as it is in fanon... just saying... though, i don't fault people for wishing to make this encounter and relationship more than "just a beating for the sake of it or to be cool" or wtv dc wanted with this issue.

Other stories: in the event One year later, like the title of the event suggests, there are some stories happening one year after the Infinite Crisis, when some of the heroes that went missing during the crisis return home, which includes Nightwing. So, in this story Jason first appears in New York dressed in a Nightwing suit and killing criminals. He wants to work with Dick, but for obvious reasons (such as that Jay is ruining his reputation as Nightwing) he refuses. Though it touches a little on Jason's desire to have someone to be at his side, even if he is very murderous with his proposal.. anyway, Jay wants to work with Dick on a case, Dick tries but Jason is too much, and Dick ends up having to save Jay, then the Tentatodd thing happens… Then he appears in Green Arrow on a team-up story with Batman where Jay is on criminal lord Red Hood business with a villain named Brick... also the first thing he does in this story is kill his own henchmen that he sent to do his business (again with Jay not giving a single fuck about killing crooks *sigh*). Then, he captures Speedy (Mia Dearden) and brings her to her school to "train her" and he tries to get to her and "recruit her" (i guess) to his side by comparing their lives, being that they both had parents that hurt them, had to survive by themselves on the streets and ended up being taken in by a billionaire vigilante, which messes up with Mia mentally, even if she wasn't that physically hurt. But like with Tim, Jay did this more as another way to get at Bruce and to show Bruce "the price of enlisting others" into his crusade, and in this case specifically asking for Green Arrow and Speedy's help to stop Jason's business in Star City,, and also the fact that in these stories, he is going against the idea and existence of child sidekicks. In the Outsiders, Jason calls Dick to talk because he has proof that Black Lighting is innocent (for context he was been framed to have killed someone), which shows again that Jay cares about innocent people and making the right people pay (i guess i can put it like that).

Note: as it can be seen in these stories, including the Titans Tower fight, Jason is not a main character, obviously, he is either an antagonist or a supporting character that sometimes "gives a hand to the good guys", but he is still pretty much a villain. And even if most of the messed-up things he does are directed at Bruce, there is really no good justification for Jason to choose to torment others just because they are associated with Bruce (like he did to Tim, Mia, Dick and Oliver).

Countdown: ok so.... when it comes to this event i won't go into many details because it has a lot, especially for Jason, and there also a characterization problem for all of the characters in this. But i gotta say that of the post-crisis stories with Jay after UTRH this one brings some pretty interesting things about Jason and his feelings about himself, his methods, Gotham City and Batman, and the establishment of a potentially interesting character development for him. In the sense that he gets to an Earth where he meets a Batman that killed the Joker to avenge his Jason's death and that since doing so he started eradicating crime in Gotham in the way Jason was doing as the Red Hood (or tried to do) which makes Jay realise how wrong it is, and that Bruce was right in not making himself kill because he knows that he wouldn't stop if he were to start doing it. And Jay also gets more trauma by watching this Batman die. Oh, and this where Jay gets his Red Robin suit that this Batman made for his Jason. Anyway, i am not good at explaining this event, but i will leave you with this post if you wanna learn more about Jay's development here. Though, the main interesting thing is that Jason ends up questioning vigilantism in a way, after going through all of that (thou, be aware that after Countdown, the next writers decided to completely ignore this development... so there is that... Classic DC being DC... ufff).

Battle of the Cowl: so, this story happens after Batman "dies" in Batman R.I.P., and Gotham City goes into complete chaos. Nightwing assembled a team to get Gotham back in control, and Jason adds to the problems by becoming the "Gun Batman". And when Dick and Damian confront him he shoots Damian... without any remorse... and then Tim puts a Bat suit on and goes to Jason's hideout and they fight. During this fight he compliments Tim's abilities and intelligence, and thinks that he would have been better if he gave up on Bruce's ideology. Then Jason asks Tim to be his Robin only to stab Tim with a Batarang... And when Nightwing shows Jason Bruce's final message to him that only manages to make it worse as Jason becomes even more enraged (also sidenote: this message is where Bruce talks about a secret from Jason's traumatic past, that some part of the fandom believes it to be evidence, alongside Jason saying he relates to Mia and the fact that he lets a molester fall of the balcony as Robin, that Jay might be a CSA survivor like Mia... though this is just speculation on fandom's part and i, personally, don't have any strong opinion about this, but considering Jason's past of surviving alone on the streets it can be a possibility... but while this is a possible interpretation of Jason's secret, it can also be any other horrible event that he went through or witnessed that marked him so deep that he represses it, explaining why he snaps after Bruce mentions it in his message... thou again, no writer follows on this bit in future stories).

But anyway, as can be seen here, the "Jay questioning vigilantism and perhaps letting go from it and moving forward to a different path" (that still included violence thou) was thrown out of the window...

And again, what Jay did to Tim and Damian here is inexcusable, like he shot Damian because he didn't want him involved and stabbed Tim just because he refused his partnership proposal.

At the end of this story Jason "dies" in a dramatic fall after a fight with Nightwing.

Also, i need to mention that, obviously, Jason did not die, and that he was actually caught by Batman Dick and put into Arkham after going on a killing spree, but, on contrary of what many people seem to believe in popular fanon, Jason being imprisoned there wasn't that bad, considering that during this time Dick made a lot of efforts to make Arkham better and safer for the prisoners and that Joker wasn't even in there during Jay's stay, so he didn't have to be in his presence or acknowledge that he and his murderer were in the same building, because that is not what happened. So, please stop villainizing Dick so much!! He did his best at the time where everything was a big mess, he had a lot of big responsibilities thrown on his back and Jason was doing nothing but causing more problems (plus in the many encounters Dick and Jay had over these stories Dick always tried to offer help to Jason, either be it understanding and wanting to listen or to let Jay deal with his issues through fighting with him... also, most of the times Jason ends up running away never to be found again until he wants to make himself seen again, and it usually involves a dramatic fight, *changing the tone to joking* because he is a drama queen, ok? we love our traumatized drama queen!). * serious again* And Jay escapes from the other prison he was later put in anyway... also he murdered like 97 people when he did so....so ya...

When it comes to these stories (aka from Titans Tower to after the Battle of the Cowl, aka more or less till the end of Post-crisis), imo, what Jay does is a big jump for someone that started killing horrible people that used, killed and trafficked kids or sold drugs to vulnerable people to just doing violence like this... i mean, i guess the writers want to justify it as "desperation" in a sense, after he was "let down by Bruce", but like...not like this, i mean, looking at Lost Days and UTRH, even if Jay's plans and actions weren't perfect and had their flaws, they made sense, they were about revenge and "doing what needed to be done" in his mind, and he only "lost it" when confronted with the 2 people related directly to his trauma, aka Bruce and Joker, like the only thing i can see "working" a little is with Jason "losing it" because of Bruce's message in BotC, which happened, but he started "going off the rails" way before that... but anyways, unfortunately, all of this mess still makes part of Jay's canon, ufff... And i fault these stories to contributing to the "insane Jason"/"Lazarus Pit Mad Jason" narrative/idea.

And so, even with all of this mess, i still think that it's important to understand and remember THIS: Jason in Lost Days and UTRH, and yes, including his “villain era”, was never insane!! Because Jason knew what he was doing, he obviously was his sense of reality intact, and more importantly having trauma and doing extreme things because of it does not equal being insane! Being traumatized/mentally anguished and being insane are very different!

And, i felt the need to bring up sources for this, so here they are:

Insanity: mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

(Legal Dictionary - Law.com. (2019). Law.com Legal Dictionary. https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=979)

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Insanity is a term used by some people to describe behavior motivated by disrupted mental states that may interfere with functioning. Because the term is often used in a pejorative manner to describe those experiencing mental illness, the field of psychology has largely abandoned its use. However, insanity is still used within the legal system as a mitigating factor or defense against criminal allegations.

Because mainstream culture now recognizes mental illness is a health concern rather than a personal failing, the use of the term insanity has fallen out of favor. Many mental health advocacy organizations argue that “insane” and similar terms should never be used, pointing out the importance of referring to those who have mental illnesses as people first, rather than by their illness.

“Not guilty by reason of insanity” is used as a defense in fewer than 1% of felony cases in the United States. Of the defendants using this defense, only about a quarter are acquitted. Generally speaking, people who qualify as criminally insane experience a level of mental illness that prevents them from understanding either their actions or the consequences of their actions.

(Insanity. (2015, July 20). GoodTherapy.org Therapy Blog. https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/insanity-definition)

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Mental anguish: mental suffering which includes fright, feelings of distress, anxiety, depression, grief and/or psychosomatic physical symptoms. It is distinguished from physical pain due to an injury, but it may be considered in awarding damages for physical injury due to a defendant's negligence or intentional infliction of harm.

(Legal Dictionary - Law.com. (2019). Law.com Legal Dictionary. https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1239) ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Psychological, or emotional trauma, is damage or injury to the psyche after living through an extremely frightening or distressing event and may result in challenges in functioning or coping normally after the event.

(Health, B. (2017, July 24). Symptoms, Signs & Effects of Psychological Trauma. Cascade; Cascade Behavioral Health Hospital. https://www.cascadebh.com/behavioral/trauma/signs-symptoms-effects/)

**also, i know it's kinda over the top to put these definitions in this post about comic books, but if we are gonna talk about the mental health of fictional characters with trauma, let's at least understand the basics of what we are talking about... because from what i have seen, with Jason and other dc characters, is that people don't understand, not even the DC writers, what being insane is, and just end up labelling almost every villain (especially the Batman ones) as insane and call it a day, when that is not the case for most of them. Actually, it seems like most of the rogues are suffering from trauma/mental anguish because of the way society or others let them down, and others are criminals because that's what they desire to do and because of more selfish desires, and, as I pointed before in the UTRH section, Gotham is also a place where the systems and most people simply don’t care about other people’s suffering because that is just like an everyday occurrence, so ya, like, for example, i wouldn't call Poison Ivy insane (like i am no mental health expert, but just by seeing the definition of insane, i can "see" the characters that fit and don't fit there). Also, if you want a more complete look into the dc rogues' mental illnesses and dc's mislabelling of them i leave you with this amazing post.

And i want to bring up how, in the previous linked post, op points out that Joker is not insane either because he does understand what he is doing, which also goes with the definitions presented above and with what Jason says to Joker after he captures him in UTRH:

"You are not nearly as crazy as you would like us all to believe or even as crazy as you would like to believe. It just makes it easier to justify every sick monstrous thing you’ve ever done when you play the part of the mad clown. You are crazy, bubba, but you ain’t that crazy. Look at that. I wiped a smile off of Joker’s face. I have been waiting a long time for that." - Jason Todd to Joker in Batman (1940) #649

Also, to point out, that after Jay says that, Joker shuts up from continuously talking about how he killed Jason and other things he was saying to get under Jason's skin, which is interesting, as i guess that it can be seen as an admission on Joker’s part that, like Jay says, he is not as insane as he wants himself and others to believe he is.

Anyways, like the point of this insanity and mental anguish/illness "research" is to give people in fanon a new perspective that "makes more sense" (i guess i can say that) and you know, the more you learn the better... like, of course, i don't think that people need to necessarily do this type of research to post about fictional characters, but when it comes to such sensible topics perhaps it is better to look things up before making big claims, and especially analysis posts. Also,, this is a need that dc writers need more than anyone else in this "discussion", like we are in 2023, make better character guides/descriptions for your characters and their mental illnesses!!

End of the Post-crisis part.

🕛🕐🕑🕓🕔🕕🕖🕗🕙🕚🕛🕐🕑🕓🕔🕕🕖🕗

(Sorry New-52, but i rather pretend you don't exist, especially your RHATO... so time just passed until RHATO (2016), okay?) - also, the irony of me saying this in this post.. thought, I just wanna say that I do have some Jason moments and other comics from the New-52 that I liked, but those comics were more of the Green Lanterns,, I didn’t like the Bat-books that much, especially the main Jason one…

But moving on,

Rebirth Jason Todd

RHATO: During Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) (or at least the first part), Jason is making the effort to follow Bruce's rules so he can return to the Batfamily, and it really shows how much Jay desires to have a family to belong to, and to be loved and love, the poor boy even expresses how he feels bad about not going to Tim's funeral (which made me so emotional, like it's one fucking panel, but it hurts, okay? Also, as usual and obviously, Timmy was never dead and then he returned to this continuity,, but at first everyone thought he was dead, so..). And Jay also has wonderful relationships with Artemis and Bizarro, being that they are kindred spirits in many ways.

I mean ya, Artemis and Jay at first were enemies but that was because of a misunderstanding when they first crossed paths during their respective missions. But then they grow on each other to the point of romance, like they never get a proper relationship per say (the "it was like kissing my sister/brother" thing still annoys me so much..), but they had some sweet moments. Also, it was so sad when they had their first kiss and Artemis and Bizarro were transported somewhere else, and they were taken away right after Jay was beaten bloody by Bruce after Jay "killed Penguin" (he was never dead btw). Why do writers love to make Jay suffer so much... he was doing so well with his new-found family *crying*.

Note: Speaking of Jason and romantic relationships, in my humble opinion, i think that Jason is a character that doesn't need one in canon. I know it might come off as ironic coming from me, considering that i do like and share in my blog posts about some Jason ships (like Jaytemis and Jaykyle), but i like them more in a fanon context. In canon, Jason has way more important stuff the writers need to focus on than romance,, plus them shipping Jay with almost any other girl they find and can do so with them is stupid and wrong as hell (for e.g. Ravager - Rose Wilson, Barbara - which is disgusting; she is more like a sister figure to Jay, at least that’s how I and some other people see it,, plus why does dc keep "ping-ponging" her in romantic relationships with the male Bats - aka Dick (which was fine but now their relationship is meh), Jason, Tim and, oh god..fucking why.., Bruce (i wanna throw up and die) - leave Barbara alone, she doesn't need a romantic relationship, or if she has one it doesn't need to be with one of the Bats, for not saying that outside of her relationship with Dick, the others are actually so disgusting... DC PLEASE JUST STOP!!! Barbara deserves better than this shit!!!- also, apparently, they are trying to ship Jason and Yara Flor (or, well, i saw a post about it and i hated it, lol),, and i am like: bitch, what in the actual fuck... dc just stop,, these girls deserve way better than this, you are doing nothing but a disservice to all the parties involved). And i am not saying Jay cannot have a romantic relationship in canon, but like i said before, when dc does it they do it so bad, and Jay as a character currently needs development and work in other ways (sorry for the detour but it needed to be said).

Okay, now that i got over the more emotional stuff, i need to go back to some important and more serious moments (not that the emotional moments are somehow less important), such as Jay being disturbed by Black Mask killing his goons without even a flinch (yay evolution from not caring about goons to caring), Jason saving Ma Gunn and expressing his care and appreciation for her and the home he had (even if it was messed-up; like she was a criminal using children for her criminal empire... so ya, goes to show how little Jason had as a kid...) and how much he expresses that he cares about Artemis and Bizarro (like, he even said that he sees Bizarro as his brother,, he is so sweet!). Also, i have to mention the parallel the comic does between Jay helping Bizarro after he was first brought to life with Talia helping Jay when he was brought back to life and the possible religious subtext of it, which i think is pretty interesting and i have to bring up this post that explains the Religious imagery related to Jay so well (thou like reposter says it might be just us assuming and that in order to assume that we have to understand the potential subtext the writers intended, but i still think it is an interesting take). I think it works more as a way to cement right from the bat how much Jason relates to and cares about Bizarro since they first met. Like, seriously, Jay, Bizarro and Artemis were such a sweet trio, I miss them so much…

Anyways, after Jay loses everything and is left all alone again, Bruce actually comes to Jay to tell him Roy died and they reconcile. But at first the poor boy expected for Bruce to fight him.. (also, i am sympathising with Jay where because, well, Roy, one of his best friends, died and right after he lost Artemis and Bizarro, and he also got at Penguin because he was the one that "sent his dad to die in prison" when Willis worked for him, and well, and because,, more obviously,, the last time Jay and Bruce were together, Bruce beat him up really bad,, so ya.. also, another note of dc being dc, in Rebirth they retconned that Willis died while working for Penguin and not Two-Face, which has me a little confused on which one is it now considering that right now dc considers everything canon after their latest reboot, if someone knows to explain this better attached to this post, i would appreciate it).

But anyway, one thing that i really liked about this book, besides the relationship between the main trio, is that Jason and the Outlaws were left to operate in a grey line. Like ya, Jason was under Batman’s boot of “no killing”, but to the public they did things as if they were, you know, actual Outlaws, lol. Or like criminals/crime lords, but that were doing what they were doing to help people. And even Bruce said at first that “the world could use some Outlaws”…. but, of course, the moment Jay does something he doesn’t like, he ends everything.

Also, in Red Hood: Outlaw (which is the title the RHATO comic took up after Jason lost his teammates) Jason takes in and starts teaching some superpowered kids to be Outlaws (or wtv the kids wanna be) while also looking for his lost teammates sometimes, which was interesting. But the writing here, as most of Red Hood: Outlaw was meh. Why can’t this boy get a cool solo book already… i mean, i do like seeing Jason in a team with people that he can relate to and that understand and care about each other, but it is getting tiring that when he “returned” to the hero side Jay never got to have his own proper and good solo comic book series, when the rest of the Bats have quite a lot of solo series, and a lot that are actually good…

Sidenote: i want to point out some criticisms i have seen about Lobdell's writing in RHATO, both from the New-52 and Rebirth, that being that, well, besides being inconsistent with Jason's characterization, as most things with him are (lol), is that it has the problem of putting Jason into "big super events" instead of keeping him street level, as he should be. And i get where these criticisms are coming from and i do agree with them. Even if i am biased towards this book because this was my first Jason book and I really enjoyed the first arc of it, so ya.. but even if it has a "special place" for me, i can see its faults too. Such as not making an arc where they actually show better Jason's transition and to going to work with Bruce than just outright starting with Jay already working under Batman, Bruce and Jay's overall "bizarre" (i guess i can call it that) relationship, Jay kinda being made a "male power fantasy character" and losing his focus on taking down more intrinsic crime to Gotham such as drug trades (like there is nothing that says he should stop doing that just because he is "one of the good guys now", i mean of course he is not gonna kill, especially if he is trying to work with Batman, but there is no reason for Jay to lose almost all interest in keeping the streets safe.. i mean i am not saying he doesn't do it anymore in this book, but with Batman and the Outlaws, he and the story always tend to focus on the "bigger things", ya know. Red Hood Jason is supposed to be more of a street level vigilante, and Lobdell pretty much forgot that or ignored it). Also, the All Caste...like what was all of that even... why does Jay need to gain magic "soul swords" (that are pretty useless btw) and be made a protector of another realm or wtv it is, when he already is or/and wants to be a protector of his home, Gotham City... and Lobdell also mostly forgets about creating those and wasn't developed their powers in any way either... also, "they are summoned in the presence of true evil", tf does that even mean?! What really is the "metric measure" for that in the DC Universe?? And the swords are so lame that whenever Jason uses them it cannot be for long because they drain Jason’s soul, because why not… like, I think the concept is cool, but the execution and lack of exploration/evolution of them as weapons/powers is very lacking (aka non-existent). Like, Lobdell really has a problem of introducing cool concepts only to end up either rushing them and ending them abruptly and/or forgetting about them….

Though, i still think that the writing was better in Rebirth than the New-52, lol (but like i said before, i might just be more personally biased).

Nightwing (2016) #15: okay, to be honest, i just included this one to make a little bit of a parallel (alongside other comics next), with Jay and Dick’s relationship from Post-crisis (more or less… i am trying…). Also, there is nothing special to say here but it was nice to see Jason and Dick together on patrol and Dick going to him as “one of the people to talk about his new serious romantic relationship with a civilian”. Also, they bond a little over “there always being some anger involved in their vigilante lives”, which was neat.

Teen Titans (2016) Annual 1: here, Damian goes to fight with Jason because he thinks that he betrayed them by giving their plans to an enemy of the Teen Titans, considering that Jason was the one that knew and gave the mission to Robin and his Titans. And this fight is interesting because, aside from being a pretty balanced fight that gives the upper hand to the 2 parties involved, is also where Jason says to Damian that you would think that he be more understanding and trusting of Jason considering that when it comes to the Batfam and how they look at them, they are both kinda in the same boat, where they always “look out” for when Jay and Damian “let go of themselves and into their more violent murder-y urges”.

Event Leviathan (2019) #2-3: in this story Batman and company are investigating some mass killings happening around the world,, and to Jason’s surprise, considering that this happened after he was “kicked out” by Bruce in RHATO, Bruce asks for his help. Meanwhile, both Bruce and Damian keep insisting that Jason is one of the suspects for the murders (somehow??),, being that Damian just thinks he returned to killing willingly and Bruce thinks that, because he is grieving Roy’s death, that Jay is blacking out and killing out of grief or something,, which ya… Jay had nothing to do with them and just wanted to help. And then, after a fight, he obviously leaves. Way to go Batsy… Jason was ready to leave your issues and his grief aside to help you and ya do this!! At least, this comic portrayed Jason as being competent, especially when not doing so is a problem that is still present in the Rebirth comics.

Batman: Pennyworth RIP (2020): I just find it sad (but it’s also weirdly funny) how, because Bruce held a public funeral for Alfred he told Jason that he shouldn’t come… which ya… either way Jay put on a pair of dark glasses and snuck past security to be there… he loved Alfred!! Let him grieve properly!!! Anyway, they, aka Tim, Jason, Damian, Barbara, Ric/Dick and Bruce, go to a more private area to talk. And ya, it doesn’t go well… they start by doing tributes to Alfred by each member remembering him and what he did for each of them, starting with poor Damian that blames himself for what happened, i mean, they all blame themselves to an extent, but Damian was right there when Bane killed Alfred, while the others were away. Also, I like how each member of the Batfam there call Bruce out, i mean ya, he is grieving,, but that is the thing… his kids could already tell that he was “starting to consume himself” as usual,, but now they won’t deal with his bullshit anymore, in a way… like, Barbara even calls Bruce out for not going to comfort Damian after all of this,, and Jason (despite being kind of an ass, unfairly to Ric and to Damian) calls him out on the “why are you the one suffering the most here when all of us love Alfred as much as you” and what’s more, after Tim says that he could stay with Bruce in Gotham because, in true Tim fashion, “Bruce needs someone to keep him grounded”, Jason snaps that “Bruce was late again to save someone he loves, and that he should actually figure it out by himself how to fix his grief” (you know in the sense that Bruce shouldn’t need someone to pick up his pieces after he looses someone and that he should just pick himself up on his own…). And Barbara calls him out again, saying that the Batfamily needs Bruce and Batman too. So ya… look,, i know this comic comes off as a “let’s dunk on Bruce fest”,, but i will have to agree to what the kids bring up, even if the man is grieving and the kids are being a little too harsh (after all they are grieving too), you would think that as the adult and parent of the family he would do better by his family… so they could truly support each other during this hard time for everybody.

*a little note that i felt i needed to bring up: there is this weird thing of dc keeping Jay out of the family while at the same time “forcing him there”… like for example, in Pennyworth RIP, Jason wasn’t invited to Alfred’s service and there is a scene with the photo of the “main Batfam” (aka Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, Tim and Damian) in the Batcave, but as you already noticed, Jason is not there… and look, i know that despite working together from time to time, that they still have a rocky relationship, but you would think they would have at least a current photo with Jason included, also with Cass and Duke, WHY THE FUCK WERE THEY LEFT OUT?? They are part of the family too,,, i hate dc so much for this… like you either DO the Batfam thing and commit to it or you DON’T!!! STOP SHOVING IT EVERYWHERE ONLY TO LEAVE OUT THE CHARACTERS YOU SEEMLY DON’T CARE TOO MUCH ABOUT!!!

Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #1-6: in the story titled Cheer, there is a new drug in Gotham that holds people in a "happy memory hallucination/coma", which puts a lot of people in danger being that most of them just walk around the city without being aware of their surroundings. Both Batman and Red Hood are on the case without being aware the other is also dealing with this. And in this story is where Jay stumbles upon a kid named Tyler whose mom is in a coma because of the happy drug and whose dad is absent (being basically the same situation Jason lived as a child). Jay tracks down Tyler's dad, taking the kid with him (and Tyler even calls himself Blue Hood in order to feel safe when Jay goes to get his dad, it's so cute)... only for Jay to find out that Tyler's dad works as a crook and that he doesn't care at all about his wife and son, and intentionally tried to drug them to leave him alone because they "were annoying" (sheesh, like Jay's dad was shitty too, but at least he did care about his son and wife to an extent..). The important part here is that Jason feels guilty for probably making Tyler an orphan (thou his mom lives at the end of the story, and the kid is so precious when he says that Red Hood is his hero), and the parallels that are made between them and between the current situation and Bruce and Jason's relationship from when he was Robin, being that that last parallel is done when, even if Bruce and Jason start working together and Batman overlooks Jay killing Tyler's father (which was me a little "???" considering that before he made such a big of a deal to the point of "kicking" (i mean kinda simultaneously metaphorically, literally and physically... like damn 0_0) Jason out of the Batfamily for "killing" Penguin.. i am confusion. This is a case of dc writing being dc writing, isn't it? I mean, it is because Bruce can "see more clearly" Jason's personal reasons for it, but Bruce also just stops in the middle of punching Jason because Tyler appears and asks Batman to stop because he is good... but... Jay had personal reasons to get at Penguin too... so ya.. idk,,, for not saying that Bruce beat up Jason because of Penguin like really really bad... the boy couldn't even shot straight anymore after that beating). Anyways, they still argue and fall apart because of their different approaches to this case and they separate, leaving Jay to go alone after Freeze, which kinda mirrors Jay being left alone in A Death in the Family. But anyways, at the end, after Batman saves Red Hood and Red Hood returns the favour, they make up, and Bruce gives Jay back his previous Red Hood suit with the red bat symbol on, even if they still parted ways as usual. Also, this story shows the desire that both Jay and Bruce have for their family to be united and happy. Though, an issue that i and others have with this story is the way they portray Robin Jason as actually considering murder when going after some crook, which ya... (way to ruin a pretty good story),,, also, too much “Batfamily fluff” on this one,, like i want some of them to get along and stuff,, but why did they have to have Jay dress like Batman and have the Batfam appear just to save Bruce, like Jay could have done that on his own just fine,,, also his mask failed protecting him from the Cheer drug gas… like,, tf?? Like,, i am not saying it can’t happen, just that his mask was taken out too easily… also, Jason’s “perfect dream life/family” or whatever was weird because he apparently wanted for Bruce to “kill every criminal in Gotham and leave Batman behind for good”,, like,, dude,,, Jay only wanted Bruce to kill Joker… because ya know “just him, and doing it because… because he took me away from you…”. So ya… i liked the story, but maybe it would have been better if it focused more on Jason helping Tyler and the other Cheer drug victims on his own than making it “the Batfam fest with Jason’s daddy Bats issues” …

Task Force Z: so... Task Force Z is introduced in Detective Comics (2016), when Jason gets tricked and captured by the government to make part of a (well obviously...lol) task force that is literally called Task Force Zombie (very funny), that is composed of other criminals that also died and were brought back to life. Then the story continues in its own book Task Force Z (2021). So, turns out that a shady "governmental" organization is producing and experimenting a drug called the Lazarus Resin that they use to bring dead criminals back to life as zombies (which includes Bane, Man Bat, Arkham Knight and Deadshot) and they chose Jason to be the leader of this team (thou he is still alive and this organization intends to keep him as that, because they need someone in complete control of themselves to lead the team),, and Jay doesn't like it one bit for various reasons, such as: having to make sure they do not kill or eat anyone (and with Man Bat and Bane it is kinda hard to do so), having to "look out for Bane" when at this time Bane had killed Alfred (so ya... thought later it is revealed that that was not the real Bane), risking himself getting eaten by his teammates, and dealing with a very controlling new "boss". In this story, Jason reflects on the idea of "deserving a second chance to do good" when it comes to the criminals he is working with and about himself, and he is kinda more like a babysitter of the group than anything, lol. And then he manipulates Crispin (his boss that is actually revealed to be Two-Face) into thinking that they manipulated him into serving them and into working with the undead (i guess i can call them that) villains with a higher Lazarus Resin dose… only for Jay to use that to his advantage and takes revenge by pushing Bane of a building after he regained some of his “alive state” and memories. Then, some things happen and the Task Force pretty much goes to shit (sorry i am going to go into many details). But one important moment was that, well, even in this story, Jason and Bruce are working together, but Bruce doesn’t like that Jason is getting so involved with the criminals of the Task Force, and he tried to pull Jason out of the mission many times, but Jay refuses and wants to finish it, especially considering how deep he already is in this situation. Then, there comes a confrontation, that is pretty great, where Jason gets fed up with Batman’s mistrust in him and Jay tells him this:

J: You started this. And I’m seeing it through.

B: I’m sorry I sent you into this before, but I need you to think real hard about what you’re doing now. This isn’t what either of us wanted. You’re following really bad men down a very bad path.

J: My path to walk.

B: Not in my city, it isn’t.

J: It’s my city too. You always forget that. You aren’t the only person from here. You aren’t the only one who got hurt here. And you aren’t the only one who wants to save it. I’m not your responsibility anymore.

B: No, Jason. You’re my fault. I trained you. I gave you the tools to do this. And I let them be used this way.

J: Why can’t you say it?! I’m not something you built. I’m not a weapon. You raised me. You were a father to me. And you brought me into this world of yours and all I got was pain, and death, and the constant reminders that I will never measure up to you or to Dick. And I know that. I made mistakes because I was scared, and I was angry, and I was hurt. You know why? Because the man who raised me wasn’t there when I needed him. But I’m trying here. So now I’m trying to make right what I’ve on my own and I just need him to trust me. Can’t you just trust me here?

- Task Force Z (2021) #6

Now, some things about this exchange: well, as most dc fans know this is not the first or the best argument between Jason and Bruce, especially because this isn’t the main focus of this story. But i still think it is a pretty good summary of the issue (or one of) with the relationship between these two. Because like Jason says, Bruce is “selfish” (i guess i can put it like that) in the sense that he only sees his way as the only way to help Gotham City, or like he always says, “his city”, and never seems to consider that this is other people’s city too and that there are other people that care about it as much as him, despite following a different path or that follow his code/a similar code. Now, this also depends on the writer,, because it’s not like Bruce never accepted “others’ ways to do Justice in Gotham”, but, just like he did before to other characters and is now constantly doing it to Jason, he always has or expects, i guess, for the others that “do justice in his city” to still follow his code or what he considers right in a certain capacity. Another thing that Jason brings up and that he is very right about is Bruce looking at him as his mistake and as a weapon that Bruce created but then got “broken and out of his control” (i guess I can put it like that) so he needs to “get it back”, and honestly, the implication that Bruce looks at Jason (in this situation and in this never ending conflict between them, at least) as a “rogue weapon” is pretty fucked up,,, like that’s your son you are talking about… and you would think that after the Cheer story that things between them would have been “more chill” in a way but naw… (though, this obviously also relates to current writing’s problem of keeping characters into the same conflict, and with Jason and Bruce it’s getting pretty tiring to see the same argument over and over again… like ya, i did say that i liked seeing Jay tell Bruce off and move on with his mission no matter what Bruce thinks or wants, but they really need to get past this old and never ending, repetitive, argument…).

And look, i know that i took the previous argument seriously, but i failed to mention that this comic is more of a comedy (thou that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have serious moments, obviously), like the name of the Task, the characters’ dialog, etc,, and it’s pretty funny overall. Which includes an issue, that some people aka stans of other batkids, namely Tim, Dick and Cass, but mostly the Tim ones (lol; note: and i am also a Tim stan, though i don’t share this opinion), didn’t like because it wasn’t fair or realistic that Jason defeated them all “pretty easily”, i mean Jay even broke Tim’s nose with the crowbar and, after he was captured, he disappeared from under the noses of Tim and Cass… CASS… so ya, i get the sentiment, but where’s the thing:

1. This is far from the first or last time a comic favours a character winning a fight, especially when it comes to their title/main character, despite the other characters being as skilled if not more skilled than the main one… it’s Jason’s comic, so of course things will mostly go his way (plus they do this with Mr. Batsy all the damn time,, and power scaling in comics is weird anyway and also depends on who the writer wants to win, so i think it’s whatever..)

2. This fight, like mentioned before, is not that serious, AT ALL, because Jason was just stalling them and having his fun by “getting at them”, the other 3 Batkids were holding back, and Jay was too, even if he had some moments where he went a little too far, like when he broke Tim’s nose with the crowbar (also, it’s funny how when Tim says “you broke my nose!!”, Jay is like “what’s a little fight between brothers??”,, like he is so funny, lol… again to show that this fight is not that serious…)

3. I love how Jay was like “I can take on these 2” when Nightwing and Robin appeared, but the second Cass appeared he was like “well fuck i’m screwed”,, that panel is so funny!

4. Again, this fight is not that big of a deal, at all, it’s your standard “fun comic book fight” between characters that are allies, so ya

5. Plus, in the next issue Jason states, after Stephanie notes it, that he has a pretty ugly bruise on his face that was made by Cass during the fight… lol

Now, going back to the main story, Jason and Harvey work together to stop Mr. Bloom (that is a scientist and the main villain of this book). But they end up arguing because Harvey tricked Jason into believing that he was working with Bane so he could “motivate Jason to stay because of his desire for revenge”, but that wasn’t Bane, it was actually Gotham (Henry Clover Jr.), which Jason felt horrible for, obviously, after all he tried to kill an innocent man for Alfred’s death. Anyway, everything ends up blowing up, Gotham (the man) goes away with his sister, accepting his death, Jason goes away to look for Joker and Steph comes to talk to him at the airport before leaving. *note: apparently everyone knows that Jason Todd is Red Hood, because Mr. Bloom used another guy to pose as Red Hood to trick Harvey, and they find the body and learn that Jason Todd is Red Hood and it’s said on the fucking news…. Like that is so dumb,, but sure whatever,, Jason Todd is “dead to the world” anyway, lol.

But overall, this story was fun and it gave some good insight on Jason and how he is and feels, i like that Gotham and Harvey call him out on “being a man motivated by revenge”, and Jason always trying his best at doing good, even if most things don’t go in the “good route” for him.

Nightwing Annual (2021): so, this is the type of story that goes more to fluffy territory with Nightwing and Red Hood. The story starts with Red Hood being framed by Clayface (the one not working with Batman Inc.,, ya there are 2 Clayfaces, moving on..) so a drug dealer that Jason was looking for could escape. Dick, when he sees this, obviously, is worried that “Jason went back to killing people”, and goes to find Jason. He finds him and Nightwing tells Jay immediately that he believes him to be innocent, and then they go to catch Clayface together. Jason is very invested in catching this drug dealer because some years back he sold a drug that got a lot of people sick and/or killed, which included his mom, and Jay says that after she took that, it was the first time Jason had to call an ambulance for her. Obviously, Jason and Dick manage to catch the guy, before getting to fly away. And there is a cute flashback of Dick visiting Robin Jason when he was benched by Bruce, and of them going on patrol together, without Bruce knowing, while taking the Batmobile, which was funny. And that parallels current events where they take the Batmobile again to get after the drug dealer, and Jason drives the Batmobile into the plane to stop it from flying, lmao.

Okay… this is a funny issue to read, if you ignore the problems it was, as usual. First, i mean, i don’t mind and i like some fluffy moments between characters from the Batfam, and i like seeing Jay getting along with some of the Bats and having relationships with other Bat members besides Bruce. So here, i guess it’s more of a question of personal preference, which fine some people (like me) like/love it, some people don’t… though, there is still the feeling of “there is something missing so it makes sense that these characters got to a better relationship and understanding between each other”, so ya. Another issue, is there being a “big effort” on dc’s part now on painting Dick as a good brother to Jason, both as Robin and Red Hood, and like i am not saying Dick was a horrible brother to Robin Jason, but he was mostly a non-present one because he wanted to do his thing away from Bruce and because he and Bruce were still “at odds” with each other at that time. So, it’s a little too much of “trying to paint Dick as the perfect guy” sort of thing. And, like usual with Rebirth, Jay says that “it is more satisfying to see their freedom and rights being taken away” when they give the drug dealer to the police… which yikes… sorry, but Jason doesn’t trust the system,, or he isn’t supposed to, plus this is Gotham we are talking about, no matter how many “good changes” are made in it, crime and criminals are always “going to thrive”. So, it’s a little disappointing. Like, i get that Jay is supposed to be on the side of the Bats now/working with them,, but that doesn’t mean he was to agree with or trust the same system that fails it’s city pretty much everyday… like he doesn’t necessarily need to protest it or kill the guy, or whatever, because that’s not Jason’s main thing here either,, but you would think that the writers would stop with this “Jason prefers to bring criminals to justice now, even if that justice system still was a lot of big flaws”. Like, i am not saying Jason never had this mentality before, again as a reminder, he did this as Robin with Two Face (in Post-crisis),, but it still feels wrong when Red Hood Jason does it… idk, maybe it’s just me… Also,, Dick saying to Jason that he is proud of him for giving up his guns…which is something… i find it kinda dumb to be honest…

Okay, so, with that last bit “said”, let’s go “talk” about Jason’s weapons… I have seen people discuss about them, and especially discussing more once he started using crowbars after being “disowned” by Bruce in RHATO (2016). And here’s the thing… he was been using them since then throughout Red Hood: Outlaw and plenty of other stories, such as we saw previously in Nightwing 2021 annual and Task Force Z, and I don’t think it’s that bad, and I am not sure about the “Jason should have a repulsion/fear of crowbars because of his trauma, so it is awful of the writers having him use them” reasoning against them, as Jay’s trauma seems to be more tied to having people he trusts and depends on failing him than the bomb or crowbars,, but, of course, they are still tied to and are a representation of his trauma. Plus, he already wears a suit and name representative of his trauma, aka those of the previous moniker of his murderer. And what’s more, it is Jason himself that says that the crowbars are not what killed him, more specifically in Task Force Z, when Tim says that “it’s too morbid even for you to use the thing that killed you as a new weapon” and Jay replies with “the crowbar didn’t kill me, it was the explosion”,, which it’s right, lol (also to point out that Jason has used explosives before just fine).

Imo, Jay using crowbars is not the worst thing,, but it’s also pretty lame. And i am not the only one that thinks this… i even saw people saying that Jason swinging 2 crowbars around while he fights crime makes him look like a “discount Nightwing”, lmao. Also, him using those crowbars undermines his fighting style in a way, and makes the writers ignore the many talents Jason has and the many fighting techniques he knows… like when Jay got his new suit and ditched the guns, besides the crowbar, he also had a sword, which was actually pretty cool, but he didn’t use it much, and then after Cheer (me thinks) his sword just disappeared into thin air and Jay is left with 2 crowbars,, let Jason use swords and knifes more often… like why else does he have that expertise for… dc, why do you love wasting/ignoring good things… also, stop giving lame excuses for him to not have his guns back,, he used his guns non-lethally for years just fine (though he doesn’t necessarily need to have his guns back,, and there is also a discussion to be had of either or not they should still be “Jason’s signature weapon”, considering that he used them at first during his “worse time” and to get at Bruce, and that now he is trying to do good and/or become better, so most probably the guns need to go away, but it would work if dc actually made an arc tied to it,, but most probably we are never going to get that for Jason, so, moving on)… another thing,,, stuff like the one i mentioned in the previous topic, about Nightwing and other members of the batfam “being proud that Jay gave up on the guns”,, because somehow bashing someone’s skull in with a crowbar is better… like SuSPeNSIoN oF DiSbEliEf, anyone?? I mean, if in this Universe it is believable to have Nightwing hitting dudes (and mostly non-powered ones) anywhere with his escrima sticks without breaking bones and internal bleeding, or any beating given by the Bats is believable to “only give some small bruising” without the crooks dying, i can fucking believe that Jay can have some dumb magic bullets that don’t kill people and only put them to a short sleep or wtv… like i know they claim that Jay uses rubber bullets when working with the Bats, but if we apply real life logic to it (like most people tend to do whenever it comes to Jay for some reason..), people can die because of those too,,, sooo…. Again, if Nightwing and Batman can punch crooks in the head without them dying or going into a coma, then Hood can continue to shoot them without killing just fine!!!

Also, the sword and knifes not being given to Jason thing might be because dc uses specific weapons to differentiate each Robin, and ya know, the “original sword Robin” is Damian… but then again: “DiScOuNT NiGHtwINg WiTH CroWBaRs”… like, dc does realize that they can have characters in the same “hero fam” with similar abilities and “trademark weapons” if it works for the character in question, right?? Or, at least they should… also, 2 batboys, in this case Jason and Damian, having similar fighting styles/techniques/weapons usage/mastery makes sense because they were both trained in the League of Assassins and there are many parallels between them, also, for obvious reasons, such as different training, the difference in age, different experience, expectations from others and even more obviously, their body sizes/flexibility/other physical attributes, their fighting techniques are very different, so there are obvious and easy ways to differentiate the 2, including but not limited to giving them different types of swords and sword fighting techniques that fit with their characters!!!! Also those UNDERUTILIZED and UNDERDEVOLPED All Caste Swords!! Way to waste a pretty good concept… (sorry about the sword rant… but dc is just so fucking tiring with dumb stuff like this… give my boy some proper weapons!!! Or at the very least give him his guns back if you aren’t gonna do anything interesting by taking them away). But then again, this is a big problem that modern dc has when it comes to Jason’s character, also Stephanie’s, where they make them “the dumb Bats” by ignoring the many abilities and knowledge they have, and that they used before plenty of times, not just in fighting, but also intellectually. (*cough* classism *cough*)

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Willis and Catherine Todd:

I am going to have to be honest, i wasn’t really sure where to fit this topic in this post, so I decided to leave it at the end of both parts so i can talk in a broader view about the Todds and their overall characterization, that btw, is also kinda vague throughout the different eras. So, let’s begin:

Since the very first issue Jason appears in, from Post-crisis, Jason makes it obvious that he does care about his mother and that his father is absent. He says to Bruce that his mother was sick and passed away, but avoids giving any details about his dad.

Then, more notably, in A Death in the Family it is stated that both Catherine and Willis loved Jason very much, and that Catherine died of a disease and Willis left his wife and son for crime in order to give his family a better life. Which is actually something that is supported in RHATO (2016) where they go into more detail about how Willis met Catherine when he was a drug dealer, they feel in love, Catherine was kicked out of her parents house for choosing Willis and how Willis tried “his best” when he learned he was gonna be a dad, and so he gave up on crime and got a proper job,, a low paying one, but a normal and save job. Only to have to return to crime in order to be able to pay Jason’s hospital bills when he got sick (also, not sure how Sheila fits into all of this, if at all,, but you know dc and their 10000… reboots and retcons..).

Now there come the “more controversial parts” (i suppose) about Catherine and Willis, that being Catherine being a drug addict and Willis being abusive to his family, being that it is seen in fandom as problematic for fitting into stereotypes associated with poor people (which is), and, because of how the different eras present them, there seems to be some confusion when it comes to Catherine and Willis. And that is because Jason said in his first appearances that his mom was sick, and some people took it as she having cancer (or another disease) and then there are panels and lines both from Post-crisis and Rebirth that outright state and show that she was sick because of taking drugs and no disease is mentioned, so, there is no wonder that some people seem confused about which it is (myself included, lol),,, and i also remember stumbling upon a post somewhere where it was stated that Catherine might have actually had a disease that was made worse when she started taking drugs (so ya…), though, generally, her drug dependency is the illness that she has throughout most canon (P.S. for those who don’t know in the medical field substance abuse/dependence is classified as a mental illness), though that still doesn’t take away that originally Catherine was probably supposed to just be sick, but then as time went on, the comics decided to just refer that she was a drug addict and not her being ill in another way at all. And when it comes to Willis and his abuse, i have seen people that, because of how A Death in the Family presented him, believe that perhaps Willis wasn’t actually abusive, or at least not in a physical way. But then in the New-52 and Rebirth there are some issues that imply or outright state and show through lines of dialog and drawn panels that Willis has physically abusive.

Now, after saying all of that, and sorry if it only helped make things more confusing, i think that a possible interpretation of Jason’s parents and how he feels about them can be the following:

The Todds where a family that clearly loved and cared about each other, but due to their difficult circumstances they ended up hurting their son and leaving him to fend on his own. Willis did everything we could to help his family, but he also failed to realize how badly him leaving his family behind would affect them, and especially his wife, that turned to substance abuse to deal with their situation and with feeling abandoned by Willis, which is in itself neglect on Willis’s part of his wife and son, that needed him to be more present. Obviously, because of this, Jason blamed Willis for his mother’s worsening condition and for being left to take care of her on his own as a child. There were instances,, as Jason says in Red Hood/Arsenal (2015) #11,, when his father would return home and beat his mother because she wasted money on cigarettes, and there are also some panels in RHATO (2016) where it is shown and said by Jason that when his dad was home his parents used to fight most of the time.

When it comes to how Jason views and feels about them, it is shown that Jay loves Catherine very much and she was a good mother to him until she got consumed by her addiction, after that Jason was very protective and even defensive of his mother, considering that after she died, Jason only talks positively about her, being that (perhaps) he says to Bruce that she was sick as a way to “protect and respect her image” to others when talking about her, or just that he didn’t want to give too many details about his mom to a stranger he just met (lol), and he is often shown to always keep a picture of Catherine with him. When it comes to Willis, Jason seems to have a “mixed bag of feelings” for obvious reasons,, as that there is no doubt that Jason blames Willis’s choices and actions towards his mother for how things turned out, but at the same time, Jason still has some love left for his messed-up absent and sometimes abusive dad, as he shows when he learns about Willis’s death in his Robin days and wants to revenge him by going after Two-Face, in the New-52, when he is tricked by the Joker to believe that he somehow brought back to life and captured his dad (alongside Tim’s), Jason, despite knowing it must be a trap, still doesn’t take the chance that he might let his (somehow possibly resurrected) dad die again, and finally, in Rebirth, Jason outright shoots Penguin in the face on live television, while working with Bruce, when he finds out that his dad used to work for him and that Penguin left him behind to be captured by the Police, put in prison and being left to die there.

Now, obviously, as i mentioned plenty of times before, this might be just one way to look at Willis and Catherine (aka being just my interpretation), though one thing that is clear is that Catherine was a good mom to Jason and that he loves her very much and that she died when he was left alone with her, and that Willis was indeed abusive, despite loving his family. Which are factors that make part of Jason’s trauma and that make him “act out” as Robin and Red Hood, especially when dealing with cases that are similar to his childhood situation, that being of men abusing women and/or children (this is also why i, personally, don’t see as being “out of character” that he killed Tyler’s dad in “the heat of the moment” in Urban Legends, as i saw some people criticize the story about this in the sense that “Jason is not that incompetent to just let himself do that”,, when in most instances where he kills, especially in Lost Days, he kills people that are actively warming children and women, which relates to his own traumatic experience and his empathy for the victims of these horrible people,, though at the same time i can see why this is a critique because it is another example of dc undermining Jason’s ability to “control himself” when emotional).

Though, when it comes to the Todds and what i added at the end of the previous paragraph has some problematic implications in terms of being classist. Because like i pointed out before, Willis started as a father that was absent because he had basically no other choice, in order to try to give a better life to his family, to being depicted as abusive in everything else (though, like i said before, neglect is also a form of abuse, but i am saying this more to refer that he is now portrayed as having been physically abusive, to Catherine at least, and in the New-52 there were even some indications that he might have also consumed alcohol when at home, but that seems to not be a constant throughout the rest besides the New-52 that makes some references to it through panels, so ya), Catherine is the “poor addict” stereotype and they mostly keep her as that, but later add her being abused by her husband (or at least that they used to fight a lot, and sometimes to the point it got physical) and completely ignore her being sick, and Jason started out as a sweet, kind and caring kid, despite all of his hardships, to then being painted as “the bad apple”, the one that is “destined to follow the cycle of violence he was born in”, and i am not just talking about Red Hood Jason, because they started doing that to Robin Jay before he died, and then made it even worse as they tried to explore Jason’s Robin years in recent comics.

Also, a little note: isn’t it weird how much dc disconnects Jason from other characters, like people that he knew from growing up in Crime Alley, maybe except Ma Gunn sometimes (which is something), not properly making part of the Titans or having his own friends and team as a kid, having both versions of the Outlaws being taken away from him and/or separate even after they reunite, and in not letting Jay develop a deeper relationship with his siblings/other members of the Batfam (or at least with one of them,, and without constantly being the “i am making sure you don’t kill anymore or i am just worrying about you now because you had an angry outburst” thing)… but Bruce is always the fucking constant for Jason everywhere!!! Let this boy have other relationships that are more important and that give more validity to his origins and how he is!! Like damn, we are in 2023 dc, how about you move on from this bullshit already!!! So ya,, this is why we cannot have nice things, but considering what this post is supposed to be i need to talk both about the good and the bad.

Also, and very important: Jason’s anger as Robin

As most people know,,, dc fans, or mostly Jason Todd fans,, are tired of criticising dc for depicting Jason as more violent and angry as Robin in Rebirth,, when originally Jason was depicted as a Robin that was generally very sweet, that completed his duties, and cared about people and justice,, but that still could be reckless and impulsive at times, but more in the sense of “i wanna save people as much and as quick as possible” than because of anger. And that when he was angry, or acting out in anger, it was in understandable situations (which weren’t that many anyway). But our dear writers of Rebirth, whenever they bring up Robin Jason, in dialogs, flashback scenes, etc.,, never miss a beat to NEVER “SHUT UP” ABOUT HOW ANGRY JASON ALWAYS WAS!!! AND IT’S SO ANNOYING…. Now, i get that this can just be put in the “dc is being classist again” towards Jason box, but aside from that, it is also that, well, the problem isn’t Rebirth making more “developed” depictions of Robin Jason or of his “angry moments”,, it is them just showing and focussing on those and only those most of the time… which gives the impression that Jay was nothing more than “anger 24/7, 7 days a week, every month of the year, for the rest of his short life in the green scaly shorts” and never bring up anything else about other Robin Jason’s attributes… which is very tiring at this point!!!

End of the Rebirth part.

Jason Todd: Post-crisis, Rebirth and fandom (some more general final thoughts):

Now that i ended the part of presenting and discussing some of Jason's stories/moments, i want to make it clear (and this might be a little bit obvious in how i wrote my points in each section of Post-crisis and Rebirth) that i am mostly biased towards the Rebirth stories (or at least the concepts they bring up in some cases) and that i prefer Jason to be more of a "grey-area" hero or anti-hero than a villain (which also includes the stories of Lost Days and UTRH, even if in those 2 Jay might be seen as inclined more to the "villain side" by dc and Batman’s standards). And this is not me saying Rebirth's writing is perfect or necessarily better than Post-crisis, just that i prefer its direction over the other. Plus, both have their respective problems (some of which i pointed out previously), such as in Post-crisis the writers' disregard for Jason's pain to an extent, putting all the blame on him for dying and the classist and sexist tones present in the writing and later writers making him into a full villain and trying a half-assed attempt to redeem him after all of that, only for him to return as a villain again by the end of Post-crisis. And in Rebirth they continue the classist tone and have developed a problem of keeping characters learning the same lesson over and over again through similar situations, and in some stories, they seem to be focusing too much on fluff without properly addressing what should be addressed, especially with the relationship between Jason and Bruce,, and the constant one-sided and annoying take that “Jason was to learn a lesson in not being himself” while with the Batfam or something along those lines. And all of this shit because, to be real, Jason's writing is pretty inconsistent, like ya there is some consistency, such as with Jay's desire to have someone by his side both in Post-crisis and Rebirth, even if in the first one he is more “deranged” about it than the latter. But what matters is that Jay consistently wants someone to consider family that loves him and are there for him, and that he loves back.

And to add to the writing problems, in Post-crisis there were a lot of things that were ignored, that if followed up could've made for some awesome stories and character development for Jason... but naw, DC was like "let's have him as either a total villain or an anti-hero that sometimes gives a hand to the heroes", like we are riding in a roller coaster. And Rebirth is like: "let's make his backstory worse so we can justify his evil anger and killing urges" or some shit. Plus, this last one just ends up destroying the tragedy that comes from the contrast of Jay being a good and innocent kid to returning as such a broken and violent man after his death. But hey, at least Rebirth still tries to paint him as an anti-hero more than a villain. But i also think that in order for Jay to "become better" or have better stories in Rebirth, the writers need to let him get out of the Shadow of the Bat. Like, is it too much to ask to let Jason do his own thing without always being tied to Bruce, i mean ya, they can and should have their emotional and messy moments because they still love each other, but cannot look past their different ideologies and methods, and their past hurt. And i think that, if you don't want them to fight or be at odds all the time, then keep Jason away from the Batfam and let him build his own family with Artemis and Bizarro or/and Starfire and Arsenal, or whoever else... but not Bruce, with him things are always gonna be complicated (which also makes their relationship so interesting in the first place; also why does Jason's character have to be the one/the only one to significantly change for this relationship to work... like?? Dc your bias, like usual, is showing). Also, DC, please stop making all the other members of the Batfam (except Bruce), whenever they come across Jason or have to work with Jay, be this broken record of “I am proud of you Jason because you don’t have your guns anymore/don’t kill/whatever else…”, it’s just so weird… like, how about actually exploring and developing their relationships outside of “we are in this together because of our association with Bruce” and “I only work with you if you don’t kill” or even worse “I only work with you in order to keep an eye on you”. Like, it’s some more genuine relationships between the characters (either in a positive or negative light) between Jason and other Batfam members too much to ask for??

Going to the fandom side of things, i kinda agree with the sentiment that some DC fans have about missing when characters were “more allowed to be assholes to one another without immediately making up” because it could make some conflicts more interesting and actually funny in some cases (aka having more ongoing tensions and conflicts). Though, while the main appeal of the Batfam is how messy they are as individuals and as a dysfunctional family with all of their conflicts (because they are all assholes in their own special way,, also they all have trauma..), i also agree that some of them (especially Jason) should be allowed to form new close bonds with other members that are more positive than negative... also, just because they would start to get along that shouldn't or doesn't stop them of still being assholes to one another, only that in this new setting it is being an asshole in more a "endearing way" to your "new family member". But ya, overall i still agree that DC and fanon should stop trying to fit the Batfam and/or the Waynes into a more traditional family structure because it doesn't work and takes away one of the things that makes them more interesting as a family (whatever kind of family they are, lol). Plus, dc already has other families that fit the “fluffier and more wholesome” type, such as the Flashfamily and the Superfamily. Though, if you really want it with the Batfam, Wayne Family Adventures is right there on Webtoon (i enjoy it too, lol).

Also, i wanna say something that i observed about some of the headcanons that are popular in fandom, such as the "Lazarus Pit Madness", is that, well, not all of them come from fandom only... some of them, like the one mentioned previously, actually come from some ideas that writers put forward in dc comics and other canon material (such tv shows and animated movies/series), like for example, it is present in Arrow (and this show was the intro into DC to a lot of people) and the UTRH animated movie (that is the first encounter a lot of people had with Jason's character) makes allusions to it as well, with the line from Jason of “Oh, you got to talking with Ra's, huh? Does it make it easier for you to think that my dip in his fountain of youth turned me rabid? Or is this just the real me?”. For not saying that in comics, throughout the different eras,, what the Lazarus Pit does to people was often changed depending on what the writers or DC higher ups want to happen in a certain story, for example there are stories like Lost Days and UTRH that claim that it only restores the mind and heals wounds, and then you have other stories where the characters are brought back to life by it, like in Task Force Z... so ya. Why can't dc keep a minimum of consistency? Like, really? But wtv... dc being themselves as usual (or just generally comics being comics with all their long continuity and changes that come from personal desires of the writers and/or their superiors, either they make sense for the characters and their stories or, mostly, not).. So with all of this, i think the "knowing canon" side of the fandom also needs to cut some slack to the fans that experience the DC universe mostly through knowledge from other sources and headcanons, or that choose to look at things with one interpretation in mind (i do this too guys.. i mean, i just did it above when talking about the Lazarus Pit side effects in the Lost Days section, though, in that story, the effects of the pit aren't really "that big of a deal" when it comes to how it affects Jason's actions and choices, as i tried to explain before). Though, there is still a problem of some people in the "headcanons side" that have a tendency to flanderize the characters with one single trait, either it comes from character stereotypes or from a very limited sample of canon (such as basing the characters in some out of context panels circulating around the internet or out of context information such as when people only read/hear that "Dick put Jason in Arkham" or worse with the whole "who is the true angry Robin" thing, where people in some circles seem to only be talking about Dick's anger and that he is the angry Robin now instead of Jason and/or Damian, i am like: can't this cycle ever end?! these characters have more to them than being the "angry Robin" or "intelligent Robin" or "violent Robin", etc. going on for them, like seriously?? I mean, i think this also comes from some people having the need to put every character into a neat box that defines them, like they do when they try to put the Waynes in the traditional family, but, i am sorry to say that this just doesn't work, and i am tired of seeing it everywhere and now being forced in canon).

But the main point i want to make about headcanons and fanfic is: they are awesome! Like,, i know that all i did until now is complain about some of it, but for the most part what fanon creates can actually be pretty cool and sweet, and it’s an awesome way for people in fandom to interact through their favourite fictional media. And as i expressed before, my problem is not fanon as a whole, at all actually, my problem is with this tendency that can seem too much sometimes, of some fanon reducing the characters to only 1 trait… like you wanna write fluff with the mess that is the Batfam? Go for it!! i and any other person are not gonna stop you, lol (that would be ridiculous),, but i still think it would be cool if you took some parts of actual canon and incorporated into it,, like there isn’t even the need to read the source material if you don’t want to, there are plenty of posts online and videos that can give a better idea of the characters’ main traits and that you can fit into your story. The problem comes more when it becomes obvious that the way the characters are written comes too out of field with their base characterization, and as you saw that i complained about previously, this is not just a fanon problem, it is a canon problem as well… I mean, I am actually more pissed at dc’s writers not consulting the original material of the characters they are writing, like that should be an actual crime!!! (okay, i am joking on the last bit, but i still think it’s atrocious what some writers do or did to some characters in canon, and there are even some, when interviewed, that admit that they didn’t even touch the source/first material done by the characters’ creators or just previous stories, and that they only cared about writing the story they wanted, no matter what came before…. which is soooo annoying!! Also, keeping some fucking consistency!! Like, why is it so hard?? Can’t they do some character and intrinsic dc universe rules charts with the main stuff about them that needs to be kept consistent?? But, even if they actually have those, there is also the problem of the writers own personal biases when writing the stories,, so ya, i feel like this is just gonna be a never ending issue with comics, lol). Simply put,, i don’t blame fanon for their headcanons when professional writers do this and the canon seems very confusing, especially to a new reader/fan,,, also, you know, with favouritism on the part of the creators themselves, sometimes there can be some less than desirable interpretations of the characters, so like i pointed out in the Jason’s villain era section, sometimes writers just do shit for the sake of doing it, either it makes sense or not… like, i think that, besides the “villain era”, the biggest example of this with Jason is found in his Robin time where the first writers of Jason (like Max Collins and Jo Duffy for example) wrote Jason as a sweet, intelligent and skilled kid that loves to learn and help people, and then Jim Starlin came around and was like “i wanna get rid of this kid so i am gonna make him impatient and aggressive, and full of anger so i have a good reason to kill him”… so there is that… (thou, i gotta add that i don’t understand how some people “get into” the comics (either dc or marvel) fandom and don’t even bother to look up 1 single comic/character guide/other source material about their fave/the one that they claim to be their fave,,, like you either a fan or not?? – this type of people are so frustrating,, like you already have long time fans that did the work for you with 1000000…. character guides and reading recommendations lists by character and with links to buy or read freely online,, and these people choose to do this, like??? What’s the point then?? Really, what is the POINT?! – sorry got carried away..).

Anyways, about this whole discourse of canon VS fanon in Fandom, i think that there needs to be more of a balance where people obviously can have a preference for either one or the other, but at the same time there needs to be some accordance about what we are talking about,, because if there isn’t any intersection then are we really talking about the same characters? – So, headcanons need to have some canon basis, and the people that do what I described in the previous paragraph need to question themselves if they really like or care about the character/fandom in the first place… that’s basically one of the main points of all of this mess I just wrote…

And to finish, i am going for a point about Jason specifically (this post is mainly about him after all, lol) that i think kinda goes for both canon and fanon,, which is about Jason’s killing and how “it should be interpreted” in a way (again,, reminder that this might just be my interpretation, but it is one that i find more “logical” in this case, and i am not the only one that mentioned this, obviously): i believe that Jason shouldn’t be looked at through the lens of that “he supports the death penalty”, actually, aside from the “perhaps UTRH making part of the anti-drug propaganda” (more or less, I guess), Jason has no character ties to the justice system or the death penalty besides the “system failed me and is continuously falling others as well so i am taking matters into my own hands”, so it should be more “Jason doesn’t agree with and doesn’t trust the system in any way”. And also because, like i pointed out before, when Jason kills, he kills out of empathy for the people that suffered at the hands of criminals, that more often than not seem to always have a way to escape punishment and to continue to go out and torment others,, this is Jason’s “main thing”, it’s more grounded, more related directly to the people, on the small scale, on the streets. He is a man of immediate action, not of believing or waiting for things to “get better on it’s own or that every single horrible person can change for the better”, sometimes horrible people don’t change, cannot change, do not want to change, because they enjoy the chaos and the pain and harm they inflict on to others, so that is why his philosophy of “killing some criminals” is an emotional and rightful response to the injustice that the ordinary people on the streets face every day surrounded by criminals and ineffective, inequal and uncaring systems, which let them continue to live in constant fear and neglect, just like Jason was in that position as a poor kid on the streets taking care of himself and his sick mother on his own.

Also, one more thing about which perspectives people choose to look at Jason’s methods: something that i keep seeing is that people often discuss Jason’s methods either in comparison to Bruce’s, aka in universe “general hero morality”, (which is a Wastonian perspective), which often also ignores Jason’s good points in the situations presented, i mean it’s not a problem if you desire to discuss or support Bruce’s side more than Jason’s, but it often misses a balance, and there is also a discussion to be had about dc’s canon often giving more privilege to Bruce’s perspective than that of other characters, especially if those are from the Batfamily or operating in Gotham,, or people discussing them in comparison to their personal/real life ethics (which is a Doylist perspective), and i want to make it clear that, obviously, everyone is allowed to discuss Jason and his methods in any of these perspectives. The problem arrives when people do a mixture of both, usually in the detriment of Jason (or the character they are against),,, and what do i mean by this,, for example, like i said before, Jason is often criticized for his methods/philosophy based on real world ethics, aka it is wrong to take someone’s life, and without any jurisdiction, even if they are a horrible criminal, but at the same time this same people (thou it might not be always the case, but there are enough people still doing this…) will justify/support Bruce’s side because “he doesn’t kill people and works with the legal forces, aka GCPD (mostly Commissioner Gordon, though), and he was strong moral code”. But this, in insight, is a wrong way to look at it because this is looking at the characters from 2 different perspectives, because this argument is supporting Bruce’s side based on in-universe reasons, aka Bruce’s moral code and his alliances to other characters that are stated to be on the side of good in the text. But if we were to put a Doylist perspective on Batman’s methods, like we did previously with Jason, we have to say that everything he does is illegal and morally wrong, considering that he is breaking a lot of laws (which he does by committing the following crimes: physical assault, enacting justice without jurisdiction, possession of dangerous and illegal weapons, child endangerment, attempted murder, building the Batcave and his vehicles without permits, trespassing, breaking and entering, tampering with evidence, and etc. etc.) and also that in the real world if Batman were to fight people like he does in the comics most people would end up in the hospital or even dead, and Gordon would have been seen as complicit in Batman’s crimes for working with him, also most people would probably think “who tf does this guy think he is passing judgment on people like that” aka how is he morally above everyone else to think that what he is doing is “the right thing” for everyone in his city… Another example of this, is the over talked about Titans Tower fight where people see the horrible beating Jason gave Tim, but then, instead of knowing/recognising/saying in the same discussion that Tim obviously wasn’t that shaken by it in canon, they turn the other way around and portray Tim as being traumatized by this event or even that it was the worst thing that happened to him, when that is really not the case in the text and is just how people think he should feel based on their own real life perspective. So ya, just saying that some consistency in the perspective taken in this type of discussions is important.

And so, we move on to the END...Finally, after 34 pages!!!!

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Conclusion (i guess):

Jason Todd is a very complicated character, both for some good and for some outright awful reasons. He walks a grey line, and should be allowed to walk it without being constantly shadowed and undermined by dc’s (or Batman’s) overall morality. He deserves to be taken seriously, he deserves to make it on his own without Batman or the Batfam, and deserves to make his justice in his own way. And that dc should drop the classism already and let other characters besides mister Bat be right more often!!

When it comes to fandom, I wish that people would start looking more at Jay in the many facets he has as a character before making certain claims or look at their claims better before posting them (i also messed with this post, for example, lol), though part of the problem in this never ending discourse is also people, myself included, making the mistake of not specifying what phase of Jason's character we are talking about in our posts about him, because as we saw before, Jay is a very inconsistent character in canon, and that goes through a lot of drastic changes. But that still doesn't throw away the fact that he is more than the one-dimensional box a lot of people want to put him in (and this applies to any other dc character really). And i am afraid that the reality is that we cannot just ignore or outright erase or put under the category of "bad writing" everything from canon that we don't like, especially if we wanna have "serious discussions" about the characters. And yes, we can and should criticise the writing being inconsistent and call out the -isms mentioned in my introduction, but we cannot pretend that what makes part of the character's canon doesn't exist, that's just erasing a big chunk of the character (especially in Jason's case) and it just ends up making him into a totally different character than the one he truly is, either we try to erase his "bad days" or his recent "redemption/anti-hero days". Though again, having and making up headcanons is totally fine and valid, just make sure you are actually enjoying the “true character” to an extent and not a totally different one that can be found somewhere else. Look out for things you truly enjoy!!

Also, i have to point out this post to which i agree so much, like it's so weird that people to this day cannot have a "normal and civil" discussion about Jason and his methods. And I do love reading meta posts about his character, about his morals, his tragedy and his relationships, and headcanon posts where and there.. but i think that stuff like this shouldn't be this controversial in fandom. And ya know, liking Jay doesn't automatically mean you believe or have to believe and agree to all he does, sometimes you can just like and enjoy stories about a character that did messed-up things, and that is ok. Again,, i emphasize that, people's favourite media and, in this case, favourite character, don't define people's beliefs and morality, people can enjoy a "messed-up character" and their story without somehow being defined by it or agreeing to it, OKAY?? Like, this shouldn't be so hard to understand at this point. So, there is no need to "villainize" people because of their fave or for the people on the other side to "sanitize" their fave, this is not a morality defining thing, it's just having fun exploring a character that is more complex than "he is always a perfect angel that did no wrong" or "because of his wrongs he will always be evil", okay? Okay, because i dragged this part too much already, but oh boy, is it something that also doesn't go away and annoys me to the moon and back!

But anyways, i still think it is important to acknowledge his bad deeds as they are without always trying to excuse them all the time,, i mean, those are what makes his later development and redemption be so great and, you know, exist in the first place, lol (even if dc didn't actually make the effort to properly show Jason develop from one to the other, ufff), also, don't forget to specify which characterization of Jason you are talking about, because if not that always ends up in a "bad way". And while, obviously, it is okay to talk/write about his "bad/villain days", try not to forget that he moved on from that quite a long time ago and that there is more to Jason than his first years as the Red Hood, like a lot more, both coming from before and after those stories..

And that is that Jason Todd is a guy that cares and loves very much, and has a deep desire to have it for himself, especially through family. And that prefers to use more lethal methods sometimes, can also be an ass and he doesn't need to follow his dad's code in order to be a "good guy/hero/anti-hero". Or i guess it can be said that he is just a guy with a good heart accompanied by some lethal methods (though he doesn't need to use them or be defined by them all the time either and, also, his morals and beliefs shouldn’t always be seen through the lens of real life morality or other characters morality,, more notably Batman’s).

Though, i also feel that Jason’s main problem when it comes to his methods in nowadays’ canon is not if “he kills or not” or “should he kill or not” (even if i mostly only focussed in this throughout this post), as the problem is more Jay being forced into the “Batfam Box”, that seems to do nothing but a disservice to the character, and, imo, a more compelling direction to his character would have been if he was an anti-hero that “kept to the ground”, and that besides protecting people on the streets from criminals, either on his own or with the Outlaws (but NOT with the Batfam), that he should be some kind of “anti-superhero sidekick/children” advocate, considering how much he cares about children and how his time as a sidekick and child hero affected him,, which would make Jason an interesting antagonist to the Heroes in that way (also, a sidenote,,, people should really stop, both in canon and fanon, pushing the idea of Jason taking in children to train as heroes/anti-heroes/villains,, because i am pretty sure Jason shouldn’t want to drag more children into this dangerous mess,, like it only would work if the children were involved in it before hand, and there he would feel forced to make sure they have the needed training to survive and not kill anyone “not deserving” in the meantime, like with the children Jay trained in RHO,, but even then i am pretty sure Jason should be at least uncomfortable/“not feeling right with himself” doing it, just saying…).

Plus, to “toss a good crumb” (lol) out of all of this mess, we can always take what was written in canon and “make it better” by making “rewrites” in fanfic, but using the elements that make these characters be who they are. There needs to be some kind of balance, so we don’t end up talking about characters that aren’t actually them in the first place… (like i repeated this too many times in this post… but it needs to be somehow really kept in mind,,, i guess this can be called “one of my main thesis in here, lol).

But either way, what is important is that Jason Todd cares and wants to do good, and he should be allowed to do that with some love along the way.

So, now that all of that is over, i wanna thank all of you that went through my never-ending ramblings, because, oh boy, did this post get long! And don't forget that, like i said in the introduction, corrections and additions/other interpretations to this post are welcome!!

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Credits to the posts mentioned and linked in the text of this post:

(note to the creators: sorry for tagging you in my mess of a post but i need to give you guys proper credit, okay? Loved reading your posts!!!)

Post- crisis: Red Hood section

Judd Winick interview where he talks about Talia and Jason: Comicvine podcast: Judd Winick talks Jason Todd. It can be found on: https://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com/post/7214779500/comicvine-podcast-judd-winick-talks-jason-todd

Bruce doesn't have to kill: If someone doesn't want to kill, you can't ask, tell, or expect them to kill for you by @tate-lin

Vigilantes being judge, jury and executioner: The “vigilantes should not be judge jury and executioner” and “how do vigilantes know they’re guilty?” are two sides of the same story by @someoneimsure

Why the “Batman should just kill the Joker” argument is stupid. by @bi-honor

Jason´s development in Countdown by @yvtro / @boyfridged

DC Comics’ Portrayal of Mental Illness by @longitudinalwaveme

Rebirth section:

Jason Todd and Religious parallels by @littledead-ridinghood

Conclusion:

Fandom discussions about Jason and his methods by @adelinamoteru

Btw, the stories that i talked about in this post come from the following comics:

Pos-crisis:

Batman (1940) issues #408-429 (issues #426-429 -> Batman: A Death in the Family)

Detective Comics (1937) #568-#582

Batman (1940) Annuals #10-12

Red Hood: The Lost Days (2010)

Batman (1940) issues #635-641 & #645-650 (Under the Red Hood)

Teen Titans (2003) issue #29

Nightwing (1996) issues #118-122 (Brothers in Blood)

Green Arrow (2001) issues #69-72

Outsiders (2003) issues #44-46

Countdown (2007)

Batman: Battle for the Cowl (2009)

Batman and Robin (2009) issues #3-6; #23

The few New-52 comics i mentioned in the Rebirth section:

Batman: Death of the Family (2012) -> RHATO (2011) #15 and Teen Titans (2011) #16

Red Hood/Arsenal (2015) #11

Rebirth:

Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016)

Nightwing (2016) #15

Event Leviathan (2019) #2-3

Batman: Alfred RIP (2020) #1

Batman: Urban Legends (2021) issues #1-6

Detective Comics (2016) #1041-1043 -> Prelude to Task Force Z

Task Force Z (2021)

Nightwing Annual (2021)

NOTE FOR NEW READERS (if there are any new readers that went thorugh all of that shit i wrote, lol; but i did say you could skip it for recommendations): i want to mention that in order to get into comics that (like most people tend to start reading comics, i think), instead of reading things chronologically, i think it's good advice to start with a comic that has a character/s and plotline that interests you personally rather than starting right away with a full guide since the beginning. Like, for example, if you rather read newer comics because of the art style, the writing style or any other reason, then you might start with a comic from Rebirth or the New-52, and then if you want to read more of that character move on to reading the older ones. But also, that if you start reading you don't need to go through all the previous comics or storylines, really, just pick the one you like and if there is the need to fill in the gaps just go to other sources (such posts online and YouTube videos) and get info you are missing, you don't need to read every comic book related to the character/story that you are interested in (only if you want to, lol). Though, if you feel more comfortable following a complete guide since the character's first appearance go ahead (just trying to give a little bit of advice where you might start from).

If you want a complete list of all Jason's comics i recommend this guide: https://www.tumblr.com/dailyjasontodd/685618286798454784/daily-jason-todd?source=share

(Many people probably already know about this guide, and it is one of the most complete i found... plus i think it has very few notes for how well it is done)

And if you don't have access to comics i recommend this site to read them: readcomiconline.li

(thou be warned that the ads are super annoying.. and sorry for not having a better recommendation, this is the one i use to read comics, so..)

Hope i was somehow helpful! Have a fun reading!

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Boy, did this take quite a while to make.. i am tired, but i am happy that i got to do it. Also, just a fun fact: I put this post on word so I didn’t lose it while making it and it ended up with 38 pages with 24584 words with the font size 12. This is as big as a college paper, but with swear words and some incoherent ramblings in the mix.

Also,, i think i just did a classic dc fan “30 or more pages essay rambling about their fave, and complaining about both canon and fanon”,, because apparently we cannot live without doing this at least once, lmao.

Anyways, in case you haven’t noticed,, despite all of this mess, i love Jason Todd.

Sincerely,

Bamboozledtothemoon

#jason todd #robin #robin jason todd #red hood #red hood jason todd #dc post-crisis #dc rebirth #jason todd meta #dc meta #dc critical #dc fanon #dc canon #dc #reading recommendations #alexa talks here

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