#political sansa theory

[laurellerual]

I just realized that many of the most boring theories about the ADOS endgame of some characters can be boiled down to just plucking a sentence from their latest published chapter. For exemple:

In ADWD (The Ugly Little Girl) Arya says she is "No One" and the Kindly man doesn't correct her so, this clearly means Arya will just lose her identity and that's it. This was such a common theory for years somehow. Except that we have TWOW (Mercy) so we know that Arya beign No One lasted less then one chapter.

Or Dany's future madness that can be traced back to ADWD (Daenerys X) where she says to herself that "Dragons plant no trees" and "Fire and Blood". So apparently a thought made in one of her most desperate moment will characterize the entirety of her future politics in Westeros.

Or Bran that in ADWD (Bran III) is in Bloodraven's cave so his endgame is to be in that cave for the rest of his life obv.

Or Sansa that in AFFC (Alayne II) has Littlefinger saying to her "every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell." so this is clearly what is gonna happen. Because that is what usually happen in ASOIAF to plans that get spelled out like that.

What's next? Jon was killed at the end of his last chapter so he will stay dead for the rest of the story? Oh wait... this theory exist too.

#arya stark #bran stark #daenerys targaryen #fandom bs

[lemonhemlock]

strange that people had the thought that sansa was gonna stay in the vale and not go back to winterfell for so long when geographically other than bran(beyond the wall having trippy visions)/jon("dead")/rickon (cannibal island skagos) sansa is way closer to winterfell than a lot of characters and the knights of the vale is pretty much a chekhov's gun especially since like you said they havent joined the war yet and somehow sansa marching to winter fell with them was unbelievable since like 2009-2018 (her story might not follow the show especially because of the diverged storylines and she has the alternative to escape the vale but who knows)

It's no secret that Sansa was a very hated character throughout GoT's run. People ~manifesting she would stay in the Vale was a way of wishful-thinking her out of the narrative. Their dislike made them ignore reason and come up with many silly theories.

Much has been said about Sansa's pawn-to-queen narrative, but the main argument for her surviving the series is that, if GRRM wanted to kill her, he had many, many opportunities to do so in five books and didn't. Sansa is physically and socially vulnerable & her POV focuses on her rich internal world, strength and endurance, yet she remains unscathed and is instead learning court politics. Why is that? It's basic bildungsroman storytelling. Denying that is just being petty at this point.

Sansa also cannot remain in the Vale as Alayne, since that is Littlefinger's plot. Only the most delulu stans will not accept that a shady person such as Littlefinger will face authorial punishment for his sins. And, when he does die, what's stopping Sansa from claiming her identity? Especially as she finds out the feared and detested Ramsay Bolton has married "Arya Stark". She will naturally want to help her sister.

Now, I need to re-read for this, but I believe it is hinted in AFFC that Myranda Royce slyly figured out who Sansa is. If you remember the prologue of AGOT, the fancy, pretentious Night's Watch ranger from the group of three that first encounter the white walkers, is Waymar Royce. He is the third son of Bronze Yohn, head of House Royce. I did a quick search to refresh my memory:

"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney." Petyr put a finger under her chin. "That Royce glimpsed this pretty face I do not doubt, but it was one face in a thousand. A man fighting in a tourney has more to concern him than some child in the crowd. And at Winterfell, Sansa was a little girl with auburn hair. My daughter is a maiden tall and fair, and her hair is chestnut. Men see what they expect to see, Alayne." He kissed her nose. "Have Maddy lay a fire in the solar. I shall receive our Lords Declarant there."

(AFFC, Alayne I)

I mean... you can't be more explicit than that. The Royces know who Sansa is, but they'll just keep quiet and play out this charade?

#sansa stark #ask #anon

[melrosing]

If the kingdoms at the end go all independent. Who ends up king in the north? I assume Sansa is queen in the vale with Harold hardying but is bran really ok for king in the north? Will it go to Rickon?

talked about this a little before but basically I don't really see the seven kingdoms each becoming independent: I think whatever becomes of the Targaryen legacy, Aegon's ice & fire dream (or whatever it was called lol) was clear that there was strength in unity and I think that echoes throughout asoiaf generally.

I think it's likely Sansa will govern the North (I agree that her arc in preparing her for that role is incomplete, but at least she has that arc where compared to Rickon). Arya's a charismatic character and a strong leader besides, you could certainly say she'd be as good at governing as Sansa. but I just don't really feel like a governing role resonates in her story regardless, so that does leave Sansa (who I personally really doubt will just marry Harold Hardyng and settle down in the Vale for all of time)

and I fully buy into the Bran as a fisher king theory - I don't think he'll govern exactly but will become a figurehead of westeros, uniting the people and the land. doubt he'll be based in King's Landing as that's likely to be a pile of ash and in any case was always very much part of the political plot, divorced from the supernatural and the struggles of the rest of Westeros. you constantly get a sense of KL as a corrupted seat where the monarchs and their court are entirely removed from the smallfolk on their very doorstep, so I don't see it having a place in Bran's reign, whatever that ends up looking like

#ask #asoiaf #sansa stark #arya stark #bran stark #i know people have strong opinions on whether arya will rule winterfell in the endgame #this is just my opinion and one i'm happy to discuss #but yeah i don't know why people want it to go to Rickon?? #it's occasionally thrown around in girl fights over whether Sansa or Arya get the seat like King Solomon offering to slice the baby in half #like if you keep grasping for what's mine then let's just make it so niether of us get it!!! lol

[asoiaf-essays-collector]

For me, idk if Sansa is the girl in grey in Melisandre's prophecy and i don't care if they reunite at the Wall, in the Vale, in Winterfell or on the way, because the thing is its almost given that Sansa and Jon will be the first Starks to reunite since they are the most distant ones. Its how grrm works. The Starks are the central family of the series and out of their four povs that remain, Jon and Sansa are the only ones to not have a defined relationship and their reunion in twow before others will give them time to develop one.

In defence of the girl in grey theory - at this point it almost impossible to imagine her being not sansa. As much as I would prefer the vale meeting. Just think of it - Jon and Melisandre were thinking that the girl in grey would be Arya but ironically it was Jeyne Pool/Alys Karstark who happened to be geographically more convenient? Nah, that's not the irony of GRRM. Now, Sansa who Jon barely registers as sister in his inner pov - that would be the irony that we are used to in ASOIAF.

The girl in grey being not the Stark but someone else entirely just because this girl fits the criteria? It's not interesting. It gives the same vibes as theory that Cersei's valonqar is neither Tyrion nor Jaime and some other person that just happens to be someone else's younger sibling. That's just boring.

"Jon and Sansa are the only ones to not have a defined relationship" - oooh, now that's the topic I can speculate about for hours.

I'm rereading ASOS right now and gosh, the ways GRRM chooses to portray these two while their lack of any established relationship in books? That's simply fascinating how he dances around some words and names.

One of the most interesting part of this lack of interactions is the fact that it doesn't mean that they don't have this defined relationship. Their meeting and then dynamic will be a total wild card - unlike any other pair of siblings. They can literally have any dynamic and shared history or lack of it and we have no idea what it will be. I'm so excited!

And it's not only that. There is a conflict between them too - until they learn that Bran and Rickon are alive they both are kinda heirs of Starks and Winterfell, both are ruler coded since AGOT and their political strengths complement each other's weaknesses. Moreover, both can support each other's claim. Sansa Stark while being legitimate heir in many lords eyes is still married to Lannister and everyone knows it and she is also a girl who doesn't know how to wage a war. On the other hand Jon Snow even with Stark blood printed on his Ned Stark (who is still beloved in the North) face is still a bastard and can't interfere with claim of legitimate heirs (given that Robb's will is still unknown). One of them on his/her own can raise a lot of questions but two can make a decent claim.

So yeah.

Sansa and Jon meeting first of the pack is making quite a lot of sense from every point of view. It's not just that they are most distant siblings and thus make more interesting pair to interact, it's also very practical for GRRM if he wants Starks to go on the offensive - two of them combined can actually form a decent political power (in terms of both claim and set of skills). No other pair of Starks has that.

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #sansa stark #the girl in grey

[agentrouka-blog]

Favorite Jonsa theory?

Oh hello! :)

My favorite theory - as in a way it might play out in canon - would be the secret marriage for love, I think. Jon and Sansa, stripped of all outward political motivations, making a pledge and promise to each other, solely for the sake of each other.

It's where Sansa's "no one will ever marry me for love" meets Jon's fantasy of "love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us".

It's a personal and even religious commitment, steeped in the place they both call their home, "the blood of Winterfell", a very symbolic signal of the renewal of House Stark, and how it consecrates its point of origin with love instead of human sacrifice. And it's a reversal and repudiation of the horrific wedding ceremony of Jeyne Poole and Ramsay beneath that same tree, a mirror to the story of Jace and Sara that otherwise has no point in being told at all.

Yep, count me in for marriage for love.

#jonsa

[jackoshadows]

Just saw a couple of posts where someone was insisting that there is no way Jon Snow would remain friends with Tyrion or how it would be 'bizarre' if Jon is still friends with Tyrion on account of the marriage to Sansa.

It wouldn't be 'bizarre' if one actually read A Dance with Dragons and the many chapters GRRM devotes to Jon Snow agonizing over Arya Stark's marriage while not even writing one line where Jon is concerned over Sansa's own marriage.

Especially when Sansa's marriage is actually brought up in conversation as a reason for why Stannis does not want her getting Winterfell and Jon doesn't say or think anything about her marriage to Tyrion preventing her from getting Winterfell other than go

This is what happens when the Asoiaf material one consumes is all Tumblr metas and Jonsa 'theories' instead of actually reading the books. This is what happens when one homogenizes the canonically diverse Stark sibling dynamics into uniformity and apply what Jon Snow thinks of one sibling to all the siblings.

In canon, in the books, in ADwD, when Stannis mentions how Sansa Lannister is never getting Winterfell while he lives, Jon Snow's thoughts or concerns is not for Sansa being forced to marry the enemy. No, what he thinks about is the news of his friend Tyrion being a kinslayer and Jon having a hard time imagining the kind man he shook hands with killing his own father.

Tyrion Lannister looked beyond class barriers and even political barriers (Given the enmity between houses Stark and Lannister) to help and advice Jon Snow when even his father and uncle don't warn him about the NW's current status. Tyrion supports Jon against the likes of Alliser Thorne - he had no need to do so - simply because it was the right thing to do and carries home messages for Jon and helps Bran - simply because Jon asked him to do it. And Jon Snow is a character who values his friendships.

And for that matter, Jon Snow never ever turns up in Sansa's nostalgic memories of home and family - contradictory to popular fanon/fanart they probably hardly ever interacted - and she admits to forgetting about him until Myranda Royce mentions Jon and then wants to see him because now all her true brothers are dead and no one else is left.

In fact when Sansa considers her options of where to flee from the Vale she thinks of going to Tyrion if he was still alive while never even thinking of Jon at the Wall. Sansa is also imagining kisses with the Hound - a man who Sansa knows killed Stark men, including Vayon Poole, her friend Jeyne's father.

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt. - Sansa, AFFC And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. - Sansa, AFfC

Jon does not judge his relationships based on how they interacted with Sansa no more than Sansa judges her relationships based on how they interacted with Jon because these are two characters who have never interacted on page and have a distant familial relationship off page. Jon and Sansa don't consider each other important in the narrative as Stark siblings because GRRM does not consider their relationship/dynamic important enough to devote page time to it.

#Jon Snow #Tyrion Lannister #Sansa Stark #asoiaf

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

In the online ASOIAF fandom Arya is considered by most to be "ugly" (even though there is vast evidence in the books stating the contrary and that Arya looks like Lyanna, a Northern Beauty). By the majority of the fandom Arya is also wrongly considered to be "feral", "a savage", "or beastly". According to the majority of the online fandom Arya "goes around biting people", and there are very popular theories about Arya becoming subservient to Sansa, or that she will die, her spirit will go into HER direwolf Nymeria, and Nymeria/Arya will become Sansa's pet. By the majority of the fandom, the Stark looking Starks (Arya, Jon, and Ned) are considered to be less attractive than the Tully looking Starks, either described as "plain" (Ned and Jon) or "ugly" (Arya). So why are you all surprised when you get called out for drawing the Stark looking Starks as darker skinned or Indigenous? Like headcanon what you like, but at least be fucking consistent and draw all of the Starks as dark skinned, and not just the ones considered to be "uglier" and "less civilized". It's racist. Yeah, I'm going to call it what it is, IT'S RACIST. I'm an Indigenous woman and I'm telling you that white people doing this is disgusting and racist. Especially considering the First Men (ie. the Starks) are not Native to Westeros or the North. They are colonizers who genocided the actual natives of Westeros, the Children of the Forest. So you are depicting actual genocidal colonialists with people in the real world who were actually genocided? That's fucked up. So don't be surprised when you're called out on it, especially by BIPOC fans.

Edit: Oh yes, let's also not forget that by the majority of the fandom, the Stark looking Starks are considered to be "stupid" or "dumb" or of being less intelligent and politically savvy than the Tully looking Starks.

#arya stark #jon snow #eddard stark #ned stark #house stark #asoiaf

[atopvisenyashill]

I personally really like N+A=J theory but I dont think thats what will be canon

like i get to a certain extent some people's wish for the point to be that ned wasn't perfect, he had this affair during a really rough and stressful time in his life, and spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it and didn't do a very good job at it. i do understand the appeal of that narratively.

BUT.

a) it's 100% not canon, it's not even like maybe or a long shot, jon is lyanna and rhaegar's

b) i just personally don't get what's so compelling about ned being a really typical westerosi husband who came to his bed not a virgin with a bastard he foisted on his wife when ned being known as being ~too honorable to shit~ and so fucking uptight and yet for years he was committing treason against a king he helped crown but not for power, for glory, for any divine right, but simply because he loved his sister. Ned is an incredibly flawed man even in his relationship with Lyanna; we can clearly see from the way he treats both Arya and Sansa that he has not learned all the lessons he should have from Lyanna's death. He still very much believes in women having A Certain Place and adhering to Certain Roles and Behaviors. And YET. He hides Jon for Lyanna. Because after everything, even with all his faults, Ned understands on some level that what happened to Lyanna was unfair. It's god awful, it's a tragedy, it never should have happened, and the only thing he can do now is just. Protect her son. Grieve her memory.

like that's amazing to me. that's so interesting, that's so deep! thee most successful political plot in the series and it is born out of nothing more or less than a brother loving his sister. just regular, human love.

#LIKE THAT HITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! #asks #anons #ned stark #r+l=j

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Bro you just killed my Kid Cudi listening sesh for this. How many times are we going to go over this with you people for fuck's sake

Rhaelya stans hate Sansa because...

Let me stop you right there. I am a Rhaelya, a Jonrya, and a Jon stan. I don't think about Sansa unless I'm forced to. My hyperfixation is on certain characters. Sansa isn't on my radar enough for me to hate her. Like Jon, I feel little else but indifference for her.

Sansa being a hostage makes Lyanna...look like she was a hostage...because there are parallels in both their situations.

But it's *not* a parallel, and here's exactly why.

Rhaegar is not like Joffrey.

Rhaegar actually died with Lyanna's name on his lips, as was confirmed in the official World of Ice and Fire App.

He was also described as a "love-struck prince" by the author himself:

At last I was able to ask him the question I had sent for the tombola. I have always been fascinated by how ASOIAF embodies the theories put forward by Acemoglu and Robinson about countries with extractive institutions (which hamper development). So my question was: Why do you think the political institutions in the Seven Kingdoms are so weak? His answer: the Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's[sic] flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos. Interesting answer.

[Source]

Joffrey had no real love for Sansa. He saw her as an object to mistreat and misuse. He had no empathy and a deep lack of consideration for other people. He had her beaten because it gave him momentary gratification, because he was a psychopath. How is this comparable in any way to Lyanna at the tower of joy?

In fact, the whole point of what we are finding out about Rhaegar through Dany's chapters is to prove that Rhaegar is literally not the monster Robert has been making him out to be. That all Robert has said was due of his blind hatred of him and little more. So again, how is Lyanna's experiences in the tower of joy comparable to Sansa being beaten and harmed as a hostage in King's Landing?

How could this be a parallel, and can you back your claim with anything other than headcanons that have no basis in the books?

There is a reason why the tale of the winter rose was told to Jon specifically — because Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden is analogous to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

George says this about romance:

It's interesting, to get back to this issue of romance that you raised earlier. When I was in Spain a few years ago, I had dinner with a woman — a Spanish academic — and a big fan of both science fiction and romance, and she had read a lot of my stuff because people said I was a very romantic writer. And she sort of launched at me and said, "What are you talking about?! You are not a romantic writer, you know. Nobody ever lives happily ever after in your books!"

I was defending it, saying, "Well, but that's a different tradition of romance. I don't — I'm a romantic writer in the tradition of The Great Gatsby and Romeo and Juliet, and, you know, the Beauty and the Beast. These things don't necessarily have happy endings, but aren't the most powerful romances the unfulfilled romances — the romances where people go their separate ways, but they'll always have Paris, like in Casablanca, one of the films I showed here. You know, they go separate at the end, but they'll always have Paris." And she basically said, "No, you're wrong. They have to be happily ever after together for it to be romance, otherwise it's just sad."

[Source—clip starts at around 03:19]

This traditional telling of romance is shown quite clearly with both Bael the Bard with the Winter Rose and Rhaegar with Lyanna. Bael the Bard's tale was briefly happy:

No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says...though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote.

But also ended in tragedy:

"The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford...and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." (Jon VI, ACoK)

Rhaegar left to fight in the War of the Usurper, lost and died. Lyanna died giving birth to Jon. And Jon died trying to save "Arya" from Ramsay.

This is what George means by a romantic love story.

And they also love Arya, because...Arya...looks like Lyanna

Or maybe we just like Arya because she's a fantastic character. Idk OP, could be that.

and isn't as hyper feminine as Sansa

This ties in quite well to the misogyny some "fans" of the series have to women like Arya. It's not because Sansa is "hyper feminine" that I don't care for her. I'm just indifferent to her. Femininity has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't know if you know, but women can and do express themselves in different ways.

therefore her fans think she aligns with Rhaegar

?????????????

because they...hate Sansa and pretend its a love story

That is 100% the way George is taking R+L's story. This is quite literally his preferred telling of a romantic story. One where they share a brief affection for one another despite the eventual consequences, but end up separated, or worse.

Even though the point of Lyanna Stark is that her untold narrative is comparative to both Sansa and Arya

How is Lyanna's narrative comparative to Sansa? The only thing you've given was a non-parallel of being in the Red Keep/tower of joy, but there's nothing to suggest that Lyanna was trapped, beaten, or harmed there.

The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. (Eddard II, AGoT)

--

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. (Eddard IX, AGoT)

You do not find it strange that the brother of the woman who was supposedly trapped and imprisoned at the tower of joy has no ill words to say about the man who supposedly committed such heinous crimes?

#asoiaf

[istumpysk]

My most unpopular theory is that Littlefinger's grand plan is marrying Sansa. Thats it. I don't think there is anything more and I don't see any surprise reveals awaiting regarding his grand master plan. As far as his political plans are considered I have always felt he is a dynamic player and he doesn't have any definite endgame in his mind except marrying her. Whatever comes in his way he will grab that. Harrenhall is not something he was interested in nor has he ever expressed any ambitions to become Lord Paramount of Riverlands. It was simply a ruse so as to make himself of eligible station to marry Lysa. The fandom tries to overcomplicate him as some conflicted greyish dark villain when in truth he is like a non magical version of Euron Greyjoy.

Not an unpopular opinion on this here blog!

That man has only two priorities: climbing the ranks of power and Sansa Starks. Everything else is impulsive and subject to rapid change.

The whole point of his character is that she is his weakness, which will inevitably lead him to make incredibly foolish decisions, resulting in his downfall.

#stumpy ask #nimbledick

[esther-dot]

I’m sure you’ve been asked this a million times, but is there a specific meta (or metas) that you feel sufficiently explain the pol!jon theory?

Kit's face.

Obviously, that's kinda a joke, and I'm gonna link more stuff for you, but to me, that is one of the most compelling arguments for it. Not merely because he failed to communicate love in his scenes with Dany (although that's true), but because, there are a hundred other emotions he was conveying in their scenes that we have to ignore or deny if we're to accept that he was enraptured with Dany, trusted her, or thought she would be a good queen. If you look at that gifset, in many pivotal scenes, he's torn, worried, disappointed, afraid. All sorts of emotions that simply don't fit in with the "fool in love" storyline.

Another of my favorite posts on the subject is this gifset in which D&D create parallels between Dany and LF, JonDany/LF&Sansa, some, or all of this, clearly intentional. Or this parallel from s7 that uses repetition of a line to indicate, Jon and Dany are not friends, they are in fact, opposing forces. Or this scene in s8 showing us that Grey Worm doesn't trust Jon, which again, is saying, Jon isn't as loyal as he's supposed to be. I mean, I knew that, but again, it doesn't fit with the story. Those speak to D&D’s plans, things completely beyond the actor’s control.

I'm linking a number of gifsets right off the bat because what they chose to put on our screens is more compelling than the words I use to try to argue my opinion. For example, this gifset of Sansa being the power in the North, look at who Jon (nonverbally) recognizes as the person he should show deference to. It's a weird detail that we know they orchestrated to show a specific thing, but again, it doesn't fit with Jon being a Dany convert or believer in her status as their true queen.

ANYWAY, far as I can tell, everyone had a different version of the theory, some of which, I didn’t like much, some of which, I still think are the best explanation of what I watched, but this gifset is basically the summary of it. Jon heard Sansa, he purposed to be smarter, and was unwavering in his loyalty to the North. Simple as that. This, I think, is the meta that best explains the political Jon storyline in s7. There were many wonderful metas on this, sadly, many of my favs are no longer accessible because bloggers deactivated (my pol!jon tag has some posts in it still), but basically, I think it was an interpretation that showed more respect for Jon and Dany.

Dany sliding into paranoia and isolation is something they tried to speed run in s8, and it was presented as a kind of "madness," but if Dany was right, that Jon wasn't loyal to her, that she didn't have love, it's a more sympathetic story for her, as well as a darker but more coherent story for Jon. It reminds me of Aerys and how he was "paranoid" in the end, but we do have lines that sound as if, yeah, people were wanting to dethrone him (potentially even his son), which in no way justifies the horror he wanted to unleash, but does create a more nuanced scenario, something Martin is very fond of.

Dany realizing the person she trusted can't be trusted could have been (I thought was) a critical moment in her choosing fear as her path to power in 8x05, and I didn't think it served her well to pretend that was all in her head when it clearly wasn't. I wrote this post finale to explain my thoughts on show Jon, what happened to him, the parallels I saw, the meaning behind it.

#dot chat #got thoughts #pol!jon

[lemonhemlock]

The thing I have also noticed about targies is that they not only refuse to engage with the historical precedents of a pseudo medieval world, but they admit that for them the magic is the main appeal for of HOTD/ASOIAF.....which is incredibly bizarre to me because Martin, whether intentionally or not, has thrown the more magical elements of the story to the wayside, in order to focus on the human socio-political drama in both ASOIAF and Fire and Blood. ASOIAF, in general, is very 'low fantasy' there is very little magic, the magic that is there is not thoroughly explained, and the Others, the big bad of the series, has been mentioned approximately three times over five books and 25 years. The magic is essentially a plot device and not even a device that Martin particularly likes to use lmaoo.

Anyway this hyper focus on magic and the inability to see what GRRM is doing with magic - it's not the solution it's the problem - is a big reason the fandom is so....off in their predictions. Like, the dragons are not saviors, there is no prophesied savior, etc.

This is why targies are always harping on how there is no way for Sansa to be QITN or even go back to Winterfell because she lost her 'MaGIcAL ConNeCTioN' when Lady was offed - as if I'm supposed to give a fuck about direwolves or what the fuck 'warging' is lmaooo when there are vastly more interesting human dramas and political plots playing out in the series.

Conversely, this is why King Bran as Martin's endgame is so stupid imo lmao. He's giving a magical solution for a political human drama that he's been setting up for five books and has not done enough to build up the importance of magic in the series. Like, I'm sorry but a seven year old all seeing Tree Wizard Warlock as King of the 7K is an absolutely hilarious endgame and makes all the philosophical discussions about good rulers and leadership a joke.

Bullseye. 🎯

The only caveat I have is that, while I agree with your assertion that ASOIAF is low-fantasy, the magical element does slowly gain in importance and it's fair to say that the characters who ignore the magical threats (the Others, dragons) are categorically in the wrong and will end up paying for it. But it is very, very likely that the end of the series will see Westeros returning to a normal climate and the disappearance of magic once and for all. The man himself is on record saying magic can be a hindrance and part of the problem!

This is my personal theory as to why he is taking so much time to publish The Winds of Winter, not just because he wrote himself into a corner with the Meereenese knot, making it very difficult to get Dany to Westeros in one book. But it's also that the King Bran ending doesn't make any sense. Perhaps that was indeed his original planned ending, perhaps that was indeed what he told D&D all those years ago, but as he likes to consider himself a gardener-type of writer, the garden he tended started to grow beyond his control and now having a CCTV Tree in charge of Westeros at the end of the series directly contradicts the themes he developed for nearly 30 years.

No hate to Bran, who is an OK kid, but everyone else in the series who's become entangled with the magic to that extent has paid dearly for it. We have Beric Dondarrion on page telling us exactly how it takes its toll and he feels himself becoming less human. Bran also commits several other transgressions that would normally have other characters cursed or punished via deus-ex-machina like warging into Hodor and eating jojenpaste (the last is theoretically unconfirmed, but come on).

At the end of the day, he is an immature child who's being used as a pawn by Bloodraven, with little formal training in the ways of being a lord (the bare minimum), no practical experience with leadership, no social skills and no charisma. These are all consequences imposed on him given his status as a fugitive and not his fault by any means or reflective of a lack of inclination, but they are practical realities nonetheless. GRRM has spent so many pages already criticising poor leadership skills and has always punished bad, immoral, incompetent OR naive people in positions of power - how is he going to make an exception out of Bran without negating literally every other POV he's chosen to write? This is a serious problem in the construction of the story.

He's also already been caught with his pants down by the show and saw for himself how nearly everyone either hated or mocked the King Bran endgame. I'm really very curious what was his opinion on that and whether it made him reflect in any way. D&D did indeed make a hodgepodge of the final season, but it's still got to sting to see how the majority of viewers thought it was a completely random choice and a joke ending.

#ask #anon #anti bran stark #for filtering purposes #i have no idea if bran has militant stans #i don't even necessarily dislike him though i do find his chapters boring #grrm #asoiaf #magic in asoiaf #worldbuilding

[sare11aa11eras]

Update: the discord has decided Barbrey should’ve gone to King’s Landing in AGOT. (Which, duh. Come on. The only reason no one did is GRRM’s doylist fingers needed to isolate each of the Starks and you can’t take Sansa hostage/have Arya go on traumatic adventures if she’s got aunties and ladies and dogs surrounding her. I digress.) Barbrey could’ve salvaged all this (AGOT) through her

a) ardent hatred of Ned Stark

b) subsequent suspicion that he’s a terrible father, causing her to Auntie the Stark girls really hard

c) incredible ability to discuss conspiracy theories, resulting in an ability to avoid conspiracies to take you down politically, and a likelihood that she will figure out The Mystery really really fast

#asoiaf #iatc #valyrianscrolls #barbrey dustin #agot #asoiaf speculation #barbrey ryswell #ned stark #she would get this shit sorted out so quick and Ned could not stop her bc she’s too boss

[agentrouka-blog]

I've seen a handful of people speculate that if Jon is truly alive (assuming that the wounds he received at the end of his chapter in ADWD were fatal to begin with), he could maybe inform the Vale of the ongoing food problem at the Wall and therefore, Sansa (or rather "Alayne" in this case) would receive that message and maybe try to reunite with Jon in some way. It sounds a bit wishy washy to me... Do you think that theory holds any merit?

Hi there!

Well, GRRM made very sure to explicitly state that the Vale is sitting on a big food surplus in his TWOW Alayne sample chapter, and that Littlefinger is pressing certain lords to hoard it in order to drive up potential profits in the future and weaken his political opponents.

And while GRRM also made sure in ADWD to emphasize the dire food situation in both the Riverlands and at the Wall, it is only Jon who actually connects this to the Vale in his thoughts:

Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. (ADWD, Jon IV)

He then proceeds to show us Jon negotiating for a loan with the Iron Bank and collecting (meagre) funds from the wildlings as part of the agreement to let them pass the Wall.

Bowen Marsh sighed. "If they do not slay us with their swords, they will do so with their mouths. Pray, how does the lord commander propose to feed Tormund and his thousands?" Jon had anticipated that question. "Through Eastwatch. We will bring in food by ship, as much as might be required. From the riverlands and the stormlands and the Vale of Arryn, from Dorne and the Reach, across the narrow sea from the Free Cities." "And this food will be paid for … how, if I may ask?" With gold, from the Iron Bank of Braavos, Jon might have replied. Instead he said, "I have agreed that the free folk may keep their furs and pelts. They will need those for warmth when winter comes. All other wealth they must surrender. Gold and silver, amber, gemstones, carvings, anything of value. We will ship it all across the narrow sea to be sold in the Free Cities." (ADWD, Jon XI)

(Jon. Why. Not. Tell. Him.???)

So GRRM obviously sets up the idea of money procured for the Watch in order to buy food, and food sitting by waiting to be bought in the Vale.

There are complications, of course: Jon's stabbing and potential loss of direct political influence in the North (at least for a while), the uncertainty of the loan going through given Tycho is still roaming around the North, Littlefinger's desire for maximum profit, alternative needs for the food such as the Vale's own starving wildlings which are the mountain clans....

But the connection is obviously there.

I doubt it will be handled as neatly as (recovered) Jon asking and them selling. Much more likely, it is Sansa herself who will try and forge a connection between the North and these food stores GRRM took so much care to inform us of through her POV. The bread riots in KL would have left a lasting impression, and there is the imagery of food used both to tempt her (wine, lemon cakes, pomegranates) and to depict her rejection of Tyrion:

He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be? (ASOS, Sansa IV)

(She ends up serving him overcooked peas during tense and unpleasant dinners.)

What happens when there is food and there are recipients she very much wants to feed, after reuniting with Jon and learning the true extent of the plight of her people?

It may be that Sansa herself will be pressured to pay a high price for that Vale food if she wants it to go North. Whether she ends up having to pay it, is a different matter, but it would absolutely set up a nice mirror between Jon and Sansa in the North toward Joffrey and Margaery in King's Landing, when she arrived with the bounty of the Reach to feed the cheering people - who had been starving due to her own family's blockade of the food supply in the first place. The dark irony of that might be turned on its head. A starving North, a princess with the key to their survival, hard choices, high drama.

#asoiaf speculation #vale arc #food supply #sansa stark #jon snow

[kellyvela]

Hi! Sorry if you've been asked this before, I just can't find anything. Do you know if George has ever talked or has been asked about joneris in the past? I only know about that instance in which he asked about whether Jon and Dany would fight or fuck, but I wonder if he has ever talked more about them as a romantic option.

Hello Anon:

I remember Kit Harington being asked about whether Jon and Dany would fight or fuck . . . . Did they ask GRRM the same? 😂 If you have a link, please send that to me 🙏

Jon (ice) and Dany (fire) as a romantic couple is mostly a fan theory, a very popular one, and the show made it even more popular just to destroy it in the very end, by one half of the ship (ice) killing the other (fire) . . . .

Now, as far as I know, GRRM never said anything about Jon and Dany as a romantic couple. He mostly avoid the question or make it about politics . . . . But there is certain secondary source that claims GRRM told him that the meeting of Jon and his aunt is the point of the story . . . .

Let's see:

[Future meeting between Daenerys and Jon Snow?] GRRM: Keep reading [Source]

~~~

“Some people I met thought we have to find the story’s through line. Who’s the important character? Somebody thought that Dany’s the important character – cut away everybody else, tell the story of Dany. Or Jon Snow. Those were the two most popular characters to build everything around, except you’re losing 90 percent of the story”. 

—Rollingstone 2014

~~~

“I had a number of meetings long before David and Dan, with people who said this is the next Lord of the Rings franchise. But they couldn’t get a handle on the size of the material, the very thing that I set out to do. I had all these meetings saying, “There’s too many characters, it’s too big — Jon Snow is the central character. We’ll eliminate all the other characters and we’ll make it about Jon Snow.” Or “Daenerys is the central character. We’ll eliminate everyone else and make the movie about Daenerys.” And I turned down all those deals”.

—Time Magazine 2017

~~~

Do you already know where certain events will lead the Game of Thrones story? Like the relationship between Daenerys and Jon Snow, for example? GRRM: That, I know it. And for many years. But of course, I will not reveal anything to you, it will be necessary to wait for the books. Fire and Blood is a long time before the tomes of the Game of Thrones saga, even if the most attentive readers will find some omens, allusions to subsequent events. But it's no more allusive to Jon Snow or Daenerys than a book about Abraham Lincoln to the Trump administration. —Society Magazine Interview [https://www2.lekiosk.com/fr/publication/society/21423629█ 201812 Society Magazine.pdf]

~~~

About the ice and fire thing that many people believe represents Jon and his aunt, that's a pretty cursory interpretation, not only because GRRM himself said the White Walkers are the ice and aunty and her pets are the fire, but he also said that the title's meaning has many layers, a primary, a secondary, a tertiary meaning, etc. At most, when someone asked about Jon and aunty being the characters most associated with those elements, GRRM said that that was a way to interpret it.

Ice and fire are not meant to be lovers, ice and fire are meant to clash! Read more about it here:

Also take note that GRRM still named the series A Song of Ice and Fire in the so called original outline, but Jon and his aunt was completely nonexistent in his plans. Doesn’t that kind of kill that whole ice and fire argument? Read more about it here:

And of course the Jon and aunt shippers will hold onto a secondary source, the GOT director Alan Taylor, that claims GRRM told him that Jon and his aunt are meant to be, are the point of the story, the ice and fire, etc, which contradicts GRRM's own words in the quotes above.

You can read about the Alan Taylor issue here:

But just think about this very telling fact: The supposed words that GRRM told to Alan Taylor about Jon and aunty being "the ice and fire", "the point of the story", are not featured in So Spake Martin, the legit source for anything that the author has said about Asoiaf over the years. Alan Taylor gave multiples interviews during GOT's S7 about what GRRM told him about Jon and aunty during the filming of S1 in Malta, and he even repeated those words in some behind the scenes DVD stuff or something, and none of these is featured in the main source of GRRM's words about Asoiaf. And I wonder: Why??? Why none of Alan Taylor's "reports" is featured in So Spake Martin, like many others fan reports of their talking, correspondace, encounters, Q&A, etc, with GRRM about Asoiaf???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for your message!

#anon asks #asoiaf #grrm #jonerice

[jackoshadows]

i don't feel even Jonsas like Jon, since whenever people point out Cat's abuse of Jon and Sansa's disinterest they're ready to throw out the insults of "entitled bastard should know his place". They're just enamored with this Disney romance headcanon they've cooked up for Sansa and well Jon is the only guy in the main cast who fits the "young pretty abled-bodied straight guy" Disney prince fantasy they want for Sansa..

Jonsa shippers don't like the book version of Jon Snow. And they don't like book Sansa. Jonsa is basically shipping two OCs.

And also regarding the recent Jonsa/Sansa fans making sockpuppets to diss Jeyne and then trying to make it out like arya fans were saying those things, never forget that it's these same folks who came up with and are proponents of the disgusting Political!Jon theories that's wildly popular. These fans are still around, still make popular posts, lecture others about sexism and feminism and pretend to have some kind of moral high ground.

For anyone not in the know, the 'Political Jon' theory is that Jon Snow was going to become a Littlefinger type, sexually manipulate and seduce Daenerys, steal her dragons and throne - which turns Dany into the 'scorned woman' trope and mad - and then kills her for his love of Sansa. These people being performatively outraged at 'Arya fans' saying disgusting things about Jeyne is a hilarious farce.

#asks #anti Jonsa