#red hood: the lost days

[thejasontoddarchives]

He is beauty, he is grace, he will shoot you in your ugly face

Red Hood: The Lost Days #5 (2010)

#god i miss him #jason todd #red hood #red hood: the lost days #lost days #dc

[laufire]

although I've enjoyed stories that went down that route before, I can't see jason & talia's relationship in the comic as surrogate mother and son. I don't think the reading came completely out of the blue (I still have this edit of the pietà cover in lost days #2 as my background pic lol. that's some culturally ingrained imagery! although given the issue it precedes, I wonder if it was more of a hint to antichrist!jason lmfao), and can see how lost days #1 would inspire it (although the same events in batman annual #25 end with talia kissing jason after the pit... and I read that first because lost days wasn't out yet when I was catching up in my jason reading, way back when. lost days erases this moment and I do prefer it that version though. that moment, at that time, made no sense).

but after that first issue that's not what I see in the run. jason's certainly not in the market for a parental figure, and he wouldn't have responded well to talia, had she approached him as one (and at this point, talia was very much about finding the right approach to manage jason... because jason had attempted to kill bruce -the comic attributes this to temporary psychopathy but winnick and I differ on this one-. and this didn't happen only because jason decided not to go through his plan at the last moment. ymmv at to why). this reading comes from a mix of things in fanon, but one of them is literally "well she's bruce's love interest and he's bruce's kid sooooo", and I just don't vibe with that, basically.

reading talia's first appearances and realising she's meant to be close to dick's age also compounded my own interpretation of talia's dynamics, sometimes for the worse sometimes for the better, but it's a canon detail that just feels so fitting for the talia comics I've read that now I'd struggle to see her differently, when beforehand I really hadn't thought about her age. this way, they're not exactly peers (dick seems around 4-6 years older than jason in new earth, ymmv), and I usually land on talia being a couple years older than dick. but this colours how I interpret their dynamic, too. how I think they'd see it, in particular.

since I'm talking about the nature of their relationship I do have to mention That Scene. very contentious and I do get why (I do not care for any m/f/m triangle dc has ever tried to pull with the bats, especially bruce vs. dick-slash-jason). but fandom either sees this as "talia, a much older woman, statutory raped jason, a teenager" (jason in the last issue of lost days and in utrh looks very much in his twenties), OR "I've decided talia is jason's mother figure, and I'm -with good reason!- tired of how often she's villianised, so I just Don't See It" [insert mariah carey's i can't read suddenly.gif], as thought there's no other possible interpretation.

and the way I see it is. it's not a Good Thing to happen, nor is it written with that intention! the characters are NOT in a good place and they're NOT making wise, healthy choices lol. and it's something that sidetracks what could've become a really interesting, closer friendship & alliance (I want them to be friends and allies sooooo badly lol. I think they'd work so well!! there's reblogs in my queue about it!!). but I don't see it as something to completely handwave if I'm writing new earth canon; just something to tackle head on, if I ever write about them after this period beyond having it as a secondary dynamic (which I plan to do, but that's another story).

ironically, these ramblings came to me because I'm developing their dynamic in a WIP for a different canon (the young justice cartoon. for reference, the ages there are: Talia, 1984; Jason, 1999; Damian, 2018), and rn if you asked me if they have a surrogate mother-son relationship in it my answer would be a solid... maaaaaaaybe? LOL. if they end up like that, it'll be with MASSIVE ammounts of spousification, though. which is how I see any parental relationship involving jason going, outside of 80s!bruce & jason, to be honest.

#bruce already parentified one robin*. now it's talia's turn #*i've seen posts saying this about tim too but i haven't read enough about their dynamic to be completely sure #(most of what I've read with tim is with bruce very much elsewhere lol. absent deadbeat if you will) #talking to the void #my thoughts #man this post has so many parenthesis... i'm not looking through it again though. i'm tiredd #dc #dc thoughts #dc comics #red hood: the lost days #jason todd #talia al ghul #jaytalia for ts #since i mention That Scene #anyway. cancellable offense number 3192 etc.

[lacrimosathedark]

I have made quite clear how much I adore Jason Peter Todd, despite how frequently he is written terribly. RHATO is Not Good, but pre-Flashpoint was...chaotic for his characterization to say the least.

HOWEVER!

I wish to give my fellow Jaybird lovers some stable ground if they’re looking for decent and consistent Red Hood characterization post-resurrection.

[Fuck you Battle For the Cowl that was a shitshow]

Most people cite the Under the Hood storyline as the best work about Jason. That story was written by Judd Winick. So, here’s a list of stories involving The Boy written by Judd Winick, with short summaries so you know what you’re getting into! And some images because I can’t not.

Batman Vol 1 629: This is not actually Jason, but a Scarecrow hallucination Bruce has, but it still characterizes both Bruce and Tim’s thoughts about Jason and his potential return. It takes place pretty smack-dab between Hush and Under the Hood.

I appreciate the Hush outfit with the white streak. Excellent.

(also Tim looks like a baby and I just want to give him hugs)

Batman Vol 1 635-641 aka Under the Hood Vol 1 Batman Vol 1 645-650 and Annual 25 aka Under the Hood Vol 2 No description necessary; if you know Jason, you know how this goes.

Green Arrow Vol 3 69-72: Red Hood comes to Star City and decides to have a talk with current Speedy, Green Arrow’s sidekick, Mia Dearden.

Contains this gem:

I love him so much he’s such a dramatic bitch.

He changed the scoreboards what the fuck--

And this oof

Outsiders Vol 3 44-46 and Annual 1: Jason provides the Outsiders, specifically Dick and Roy, with intel exonerating Black Lightning/Jefferson Pierce from murder he thought he committed. Jason’s not the center of this story, but I like it a lot.

For my fellow Harper family lovers, 45 has a lot of cute Roy and Lian too, including this part that rips my heart out.

Lian is my angel and I would die for her.

For my fellow Gays, these also have the start of the relationship between Anissa Pierce and Grace Choi

also includes this dumbfuckery:

He’s a dork and I love him.

Batman and Robin (2009) Vol 1 23-25: Red Hood reluctantly teams up with Dickie-Batman and Brat Wonder Robin to save his kidnapped former sidekick, Scarlet.

Please excuse some of the art bullshit; yes, it has ginger Jason, and yes the covers use the dumb pill helmet design. But for the record, he doesn’t actually wear the pill helmet thank fuck, and the hair thing was more for continuity. They were established during Grant Morrison’s run as writer because they don’t do their goddamn homework enough to know ginger Jay is not canon Post-Crisis! Or that even then he chose to dye his hair black! (Yes I’m bitter that’s how they fucked over Talia too UGH)

At least his costume is fixed; it combines the dumb supervillain-y costume with his old biker-y look, and tbh I think it’s really cool. Aside from the bright red guns that look like toys.

Not that that lasts because this is one of if not the last appearance of Jay before the reboot! Thanks, Barry.

[small edit cuz I just can’t with this man]

He’s also a little shit throughout the whole thing. It is his mission to annoy Dick and Damian and it’s great.

BOI--

[end small edit!]

He also gets stripped for...reasons. If you’re interested. I wasn’t, but I know some of yall are nasties (/affectionate) so here’s that.

Red Hood: The Lost Days: Goes more into detail about Jason’s experience between his death and his big return to Gotham. So! Much! Trauma!

Also where this image comes from:

He really said that. So uh...yeah.

He has always been a snarky dorky bastard and I love him very much.

[EDIT ADDITION Thank you @someoneimsure​]

Robin 80th Anniversary 100 Page Super Spectacular: Jason’s story is called “More Time”, which is a story with Robin Jason and Red Hood Jason have a parallel story giving Bruce a gift on his birthday. Specifically, fixing his father’s old watch.

I love him. LOOK AT THIS BABY

(He’s talking about the watch but that literally could be said about Jason and ow my fucking HEART--)

Look at this. God I just...sometimes Jason just fills my heart with love and it’s too much. He’s a good boy!

Unfortunately, he and Steph share the space of only having one story which is bullshit. Timmy and Dami both get two, which is totally fair. But Dickie gets four. Rude. Sharing is caring, Dickiebird.

[END EDIT Thank you :33]

FOR NOTE

Things with Jason NOT written by Judd Winick Pre-Flashpoint that are major (but personally I think kinda suck) are Battle for the Cowl, Countdown, and his weird murdery Nightwing phase.

Jason Todd, everybody.

#DC Comics #Jason Todd #Robin #Red Hood #Batman #Batman and Robin #Outsiders #Red Hood: The Lost Days #Under the Hood #Green Arrow #Bruce Wayne #Tim Drake #Dick Grayson #Damian Wayne #Mia Dearden #Roy Harper #Lian Harper #Jefferson Pierce #Anissa Pierce #Grace Choi #Scarlet #Sasha

[spite-and-waffles]

Talia "aggressively groomed" Jason – did you actually read Lost Days or are you trying to find a convenient scapegoat for his choices? Jason can't be held accountable because "Pit Rage", but the woman who was killed and dunked in the Pit one hundred times until her mind broke enough to brainwash is 100% culpable for every misogynistic plot point hung around her neck. You can find a way to rationalize and ignore Jason's indiscriminate killing at Nicieza and Morrison and even fucking Winnick's hands as OOC, but Talia acting out of character cements her as a groomer and abuser.

It's amazing how people bend backwards to whitewash their little uwu white boy because the narrative is so meeeean to him, but have no problem throwing the woman of colour subjected to every kind of racism and misogyny in the trash.

#show me in Lost Days where this woman had any control over this kid #she couldn't even keep him from trying to kill Bruce #or did you just see a teenager and an older woman and decide what the dynamic is #and that she wasnt acting out of character when she slept with him #Winnick has a problematic history with women of colour but even his point was that this woman was not well #she had a case of raging ptsd and literal brainwashing #the idea that you can just throw out Winnick's BnR arc but not that gross ass moment in Lost Days #talia al ghul #jason todd #red hood: the lost days #batman and robin: the streets run red #anti grant morrison #anti fabian nicieza #judd winnick #jason todd meta #racism #misogyny #dcu #tw grooming mention #batfamily #bat meta #spite waffle #talia al ghul meta

[rootbeerrex]

The Same as I by Dirt Poor Robins is Talia singing to about Jason in the lost days no I won't take criticism

(in a maternal way. as far as I'm concerned, the hookup subplot in the lost days did not happen)

#talia al ghul #red hood: the lost days #red hood #jason todd

[thenewtitans60page22]

This panel from Batman: Red Hood The Lost Days #2 is one of my favorite Jason Todd panels. Every time I see it I want to cry until I throw up.

#his dad didn’t make sure this couldn’t happen again and he’s so fucked up about it #Jason Todd #red hood: the lost days #red hood #angst #my post

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

“By doing what he does (killing) Jason will just get hurt”

Too late for that. He’s been hurting. It’s almost like the source of his pain is in fact not the act of killing, but the fact that he was brutally murdered, had to come back to life and live with that memory, and now has to struggle with what happened to him for a very long time.

Red Hood: The Lost Days #2

Oh, and that he’s unavenged. That his death meant nothing to the people who mattered the most to him (but hey, what do I know).

And anyway there’s catharsis in saying “I’m chronically hurting, might as well hurt on my own terms (and let’s throw my passive father into the mix too).”

#in my opinion Jason is not a difficult character to interpret #anyway #another easy to read and compelling story for people who presumably like Jason as a character (so long as you ignore *that* ending) #jason todd #red hood #red hood: the lost days #lost days #dc #comic panels #my post #edit: phrasing

[ninalinovna]

the lost days

#jason todd #red hood #talia al ghul #dc fanart #batfamily #dc comics #myart #lost days is a great read #you just have to skip a couple of pages towards the end

[qcomicsy]

They even had the exactly same gay haircut

#AND ALMOST THE SAME SHIRT HOLY SHIT #going insane #something something you and you father are distorted mirrors of eachother #Jason Todd #Bruce Wayne #Redhood #Batman #Red Hood Lost Days #Batman The Knight

[thejasontoddarchives]

Red Hood: The Lost Days #3 (2010-)

He can apply himself perfectly as soon as he’s taught something. He’s the pupil Walter White always wanted had he been “easy to control” (docile)

#he applied what he learned from the chemist to kill the guy teaching him how to beat people to death #he also effortlessly tracks people’s ticks tells and habits in case they ever fuck up majorly (like say by running a child trafficking ring) #bring back silly little Jason ‘knows too much’ Peter Todd #jason todd #red hood #dc #red hood: the lost days #lost days #conniving

[pinkypastal]

Ra's: he can't keep doing this talia-

Talia,holding jason: he's just a baby!

Ra's: he can't just go around murdering entire gangs of- my contacts!

Talia: HE'S JUST A BABY!

#talia and ra's feeling towards jason summarised #this could also work with Bruce lmao #jason todd #dc #batman #batfam #batfamily #red hood #robin #talia al ghul #ra's al ghul #ras al ghul #dc comics #red hood lost days #incorrect quotes #incorrect batfamily quotes #jason al ghul

[webshood]

Talia likes to gaslight people into believing she's Jason's birth mother.

"You had him really young then?" Yes, I was young and really in love with his father.

"He doesn't look arab tho'. " And? His father is white and I'm sino arab, he may look a little white passing, but I have the stretch marks to prove.

"Usually mixed kids have more..." We have the same completely natural green bright eyes I don't know what you're trying to point here.

"So... both of your sons are from the same father?" Yes, the older got his lack of melanin and the younger his face.

And if you let her, she'll go hours blatantly lying about everything, she once convinced a poor cashier that when Jason was a baby and learning how to walk, he got all the way to the family's garden and she found him sleeping with a tigress and her cubs. Talia says she was scared for her life when that happened and the fact he could sleep so peacefully with such dangerous animals proves that Jason was a born warrior.

She even carries around photos of Jason as a kid on her wallet and makes sure to show them with the biggest grin on her face to anyone who's fool enough to fall into her silver tongue.

When Damian is feeling like a little shit he likes to tell people his mom had a psychological pregnancy and adopted his brother and is conviced she's the one who birthed him, so it's better to agree with her and he always makes sure to sound like hes pitying her

Jason tells people Damian is the adopted one

#jason todd #dc comics #red hood #batfam #talia al ghul #wasian jason todd #damian al ghul #damian wayne #please stop mentioning these panels in lost days #it got retconned already and of I'm making headcanons about them having a mother-son relationship #i clearly don't consider them canon. #mom talia is everything to me

[wightning]

There’s a thing I see in fics sometimes where Talia has authority over Jason and she profits off of it by giving him tasks or missions, which is funny to me because there is not a single moment in Lost Days in which Talia has even the slightest bit of control over what Jason is doing.

Like when she first finds him and he's catatonic? Yea okay, but he's catatonic. As soon as he takes a dip in the Lazarus Pit and regains his mental capacities he just takes off like a rocket and everyone else has to scramble after him.

He goes rogue and tries to kill Bruce and Talia is like UHHH and attempts to stall him from trying that again by finding him instructors to hone various skills, and Jason goes along with it but also straight up murders about half of his teachers after he's done learning from them, while Talia just watches with some pride but also mild concern in the background.

Throughout all of this he's also leeching off of her bank accounts and contacts. Talia is getting nothing out of this arrangement

#this is based solely on what i read in lost days #if they do interact with a different dynamic in other comic runs feel free to correct me #cy posts #batman #dc comics #batfam #jason todd #red hood #talia al ghul #red hood lost days

[spite-and-waffles]

I feel like neither the pro-Talia Al Ghul camp or the anti-Talia camp really care to delve deeply into the fact that she has been abused and used by her father her whole life, and is as tragic a character as Jason. Her fixating on a man as emotionally distant and obsessed with his mission as Ra's, knowing full well that he will never choose her or his children over it, is a completely accurate showcasing of the way people perpetuate their own trauma cycles.

And while I hope more people refuse to take anything Grant Morrison wrote about Talia to account, making her a good mother in reaction to it also just does not make sense. Just like Bruce, she's an example of someone who loves her child fiercely but is too traumatized and emotionally stunted to express it in healthy ways. Unlike Bruce she grew up in a literal terrorist cult and raised Damian in it as well. Her being exacting and teaching Damian to be ruthless and trust no one were all incredibly damaging and abusive, but it's also the only fucking way he could have survived the League or Ra's. Yes, she could have sent Damian to his father and keeping him by her side was selfish, but this woman, who had been starved of love and had never been anyone's priority since her mother died, finally had a person to be hers and only hers. It's horribly, tragically human to guard that love jealously and possessively.

The Tiger Mom as a trope is racist, but the emotional effects on women made to prove their worth as humans via motherhood is very much a reality that women of colour can relate to, and one not confined to just Asians. I'm only going to speak for my own people here, but the way Asian mothers make their sons their whole reason for being stems directly from the oppressively patriarchal cultures we grow up in, where a woman's worth is predicated on being a wife and mother and the highest honour she can aspire to is having a son. Ra's is the original patriarch who drilled into his daughters that they could never inherit his legacy no matter how much they proved their love, and that they owed him male heirs. Damian's very existence is tied up with Talia's idea of her own personhood and worth and achievement, which is why she piles on so many contradicting expectations on him - that he's fiercely independent but also stays by her side, become his father's perfect heir but take only her values, never be a pawn like she was, but align with her own wishes.

However you want to negotiate the racism of the way Talia is written is up to you obviously, but I feel that there's no realistic way that Talia can be a good mother (even in Son of the Demon she acted in Bruce's best interests, deceived him and abandoned her child, which actually might have been kinder than attempting to raise him in the LoA). I feel that making her one is an extremely simplistic way of dealing with the racialized misogyny her character is subjected to, and a disservice to real-life children of mothers like her, who love their children fiercely but perpetuate abuse cycles because of that very love.

For me, deconstructing and reaching past the misogyny and racism means humanising her and not making her value and sympathy as a character contingent on how good of a mother she is to Damian and Jason. Trauma and abuse slows or arrests your emotional development and makes it difficult to regulate your emotions and impulses, which is why it's a requirement for traumatized people to cognitively work on themselves in order to be good parents to their own children. Talia cannot. There's absolutely no therapist she can trust, the last time she felt close to someone she was decieved, tortured and brainwashed by her, and not only can't she get away from her father but she received a harsh object lesson from her sister on what happens when you try. This woman is a goddamn victim in every possible way, even more than Jason. It's also one of the reasons I don't buy that she allowed herself to be close to Jason, maternal feelings notwithstanding.

(Also her sleeping with him was pretty gross and unnecessary of Winick, whose writing is far from unproblematic when it comes to WoC, but it makes for a fascinating character deconstruction because afaik it happened right after Nyssa tortured her until she was brainwashed against Ra's and Bruce. So at that point in time she was basically in tatters and locked in the same self-destructive spiral as Jason, and maybe she wanted to nuke her sense of maternal care towards him in a bid to feel less emotionally vulnerable. I love this kind of psychological yarn balls in fiction.)

Absolutely none of this should absolve her choices. None of this means she's a good anything or that she should be seen as a purely sympathetic and wronged character. She's obscenely rich and powerful, ruthless, cunning and manipulative. She's one of the most dangerous people in the world. She's not fit to raise anyone. But if you can't accept all of that and square it with a fiercely loving heart and find a deeply human character then I really can't relate to you.

Let female characters of colour be human, morally grey and complex. Let fictional mothers be traumatized and deeply damaging without demonizing them. And stop moralizing female characters, I am begging you. We're far past Victorian England. Making them be on their best behaviour all the time to be sympathetic is oppressive as hell and not what storytelling is for.

#talia al ghul #ra's al ghul #son of the demon #anti Grant Morrison #parental abuse #abuse cycles #asian representation #women of colour #jason todd #red hood: the lost days #damian al ghul #damian wayne #misogyny #racism #death and the maidens #bat meta #dc meta #batfamily #dc comics #spite waffle

[kittykatninja321]

Constantly thinking about that post that’s like “people think Talia was controlling Jason in lost days, Jason could barely control Jason let alone Talia” because literally one of the first thing he does after regaining consciousness is outmaneuver league agents to run back to Gotham. If he wanted to leave he could that’s why she brings up the idea of training in order to stall his plans to kill Bruce (at some point he does clue into this). To me the dynamic of Talia manipulating Jason while Jason is semi aware of this and consciously going along with it is a much more interesting dynamic to explore than “Talia is an evil temptress and Jason is hapless to her whims” you constantly see in fanon. To me their post Lazarus pit dynamic is like if you took in an injured wolf and now that it’s healed it may bite you or fuck off at anytime but it sticks around for food and company also it keeps on bringing you dead prey animals

#Sorry for making another Jason and Talia post it will happen again 🙈 #There’s literally a scene where she’s like ‘I don’t know what he may be capable of and it kinda scares me’ #She certainly didn’t feel like she had total control over him. That aspect that gets lost in translation in fanon #Jason Todd #Dc #Red hood lost days

[geekynerdfinallyhada-name]

//leave no context here

Sc- Red Hood: Lost Days

#jason todd x reader #jason todd #red hood #arkham knight #dc comics #robin jason todd #dc x reader #jason todd x y/n #jason todd robin #red hood lost days