Hmm just thinking about your resurrection theory, which I also subscribe to, that Jon’s physical body will essentially be put on ice 🧊 and his mind will be in Ghost, until a time when he can return to that body. I remember I wrote a little meta about how this kind of connects to the Old Norse concept of a ‘hamr’ vs a ‘hugr’. In The Children of Ash and Elm, Neil Price writes:
‘If you met a Viking-Age Scandinavian in the street, you would have seen their hamr—her or his ‘shell’ or ‘shape’—essentially what for us is the body. Conceived as a container for other aspects of the person, the hamr was the physical manifestation of what somebody was, but, crucially, it could alter. This is where the concept of shape-changing comes from, in the sense that the actual structures of the body were believed to flow and shift. But this was not true for everyone, only for the gifted (or, perhaps, the cursed). Most people stayed as they appeared, but some, in special circumstances—on certain nights, when stressed or frightened, in anger, or at times of extreme relaxation—could become something else.
[...]
Inside the ‘shape’ of a person was the second part of their being, the hugr, for which no modern translation really suffices. Combining elements of personality, temperament, character, and especially mind, the hugr was who someone really was, the absolute essence of you, free of all artifice or surface affect. It is the closest thing the Vikings had to the independent soul found in later world faiths, because it could leave the physical body behind.’
But now I’m wondering (and maybe I need to address this in the ch.2 of my current fic)… if we agree that Jon doesn’t die, but is instead in a similar state to Bran post fall… how does this affect his position as a black brother? Only death can release you. Does his walking away from that maybe hinge on others at least believing he died and rose again? I mean, it would be pretty nuts if there was this technicality of oh well, yesss we did attempt to murder you, buttt since that didn’t work you’re still obliged to stick around at the Wall, sorry mate 🤷♀️ in that case, it would make sense to ‘oathbreak’ due to the hypocrisy. What are you thoughts on how others might view Jon’s return to his body (his ‘hamr’ even), and how this affects his position in the Night’s Watch?
Cappy x
Me, when cappy talks Norse things:
I think you're right that it's probably going to involve at least some people believing Jon rose from the literal dead, with some further mix of a) taking advantage of that belief, and/or b) some precedent-setting potential move to expel him. It used to be that the kingsguard serve for life, after all. And yet we have Barry and Sandy walking out (or being made to) and Tywin was quick to try and use the precedent to make Jaime follow suit. Unsuccessfully.
And Jon was never sent to the Wall, he volunteered. I suspect, a Watch desire to have Jon's hugr gone will match a Jon desire to haul his hamr and hugr off the premises, and suddenly Resurrection Technicalities will seem very possible.
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Hi! Loved your posts. I wanted to ask you about Jon resurrection. How would be Jon resurrection different from others? Will Mel use some kind of magic like Thoros and Beric or it would involve blood magic like Drogo? Personally I would not like some innocent death to resurrect Jon because it will create more guilt and trauma.
Ciao anon!,
I have understood the assignment, I shall begin working on the whole resurrection series since it seems to come up pretty often!, and tbh I have been working on it on and off for months, so maybe it's high time I actually put some more mindful work on it to bring it to completion so that I can actually give you a honest, well thought and complete answer; and not just some half-cooked blurting out of chaotic thoughts I have not yet organized in a good manner.
Consider me up to the task, tho it might be a while before I actually post it, since the new semester has begun and this first semester of my second year of master does look pretty busy.
I will answer solely to your questions and not go into the specifics because as of now I've not yet organized all of my thoughts on the matter, still I hope it will satisfy you until I manage to post the whole, complete meta series, as always feel free and welcome to send me as many asks pertaining this you want because they are super helpful to me, and they aide me in actually writing my metas! So, thank you in advance for your questions because they are invaluable.
Now, onto your questions:
What differentiates Jon from the other resurrected characters?
First things first. Of all the characters that have been resurrected or will be resurrected (Beric, Lady Stoneheart, DT and Jon Snow) only one of them had a fully developed bond with another creature.
Beric Dondarrion had no creature whatsoever he was bonded with, so his soul possibly went on the next plane (might it be nothingness or some hell or heaven) and from it he was dragged back by Thoros' magic/prayer.
Similarly Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn Stark, had no bond with any of her children's direwolves, she had no bond to any kind of magical creature. She had been dead far longer than Beric was before being called back from death, when the river washed her to the riverbanks and she was found by the Brotherhood without banners. Which would explain, coupled with the tragic losses she experienced and was experiencing as she died, how feral and inhuman she actually returned to be.
Now, onto the realm of interpretation, I do believe that during the blood sacrifice DT also killed herself, offered herself thus four lives were sacrificed (Drogo — Mirri — Dany — the stallion) and four returned from it (Daenerys Targaryen and the three dragons). Why do I believe she died? Because a) Martin did say that what happened to her (survive the fire) is not something normal even for Targaryens (as they were only resistant to it, not immune to it) and that it was a una tantum thing which had something of miraculous (by her POV); b) Until the last few chapters in which Daenerys slowly comes to the choice of making the blood sacrifice she rarely refers to herself as Daenerys Targaryen, but as Dany. A shift in identity as we will see happens to all resurrected characters so far. c) the quote of “The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen” (Tyrion II, ADWD) d) also a couple of wording choices pertaining the whole rite itself (the fire dying out, the air coming alive with the songs of dragons, etcetera). DT is a sort of limit case, because she is both the caster and the casted of the rite/blood magic, she is aware of what she's doing deliberately and she does have some kind of preternatural bond with the dragons (Drogon) inside the eggs, but it is not fully formed, it is not even half-formed. It's a potential. A bond in divenire, as we say in Italy, something that can happen and will happen, but it has not happened yet. And it doesn't finalize until ADWD when she rides Drogon for the first time, finally bonding completely with her dragon.
Jon, differently from all of them, has a fully developed and complete bond with Ghost, a bond he has nurtured since the beginning of AGOT, since the moment he advocated for the pups to be spared. Jon has been having wolf-dreams since the moment he was awarded Ghost by the Old Gods, as Ghost was a gift by them (carrying their colors as well) because of his selfness in taking himself off the count so blatantly so that the trueborn Starks could keep the pups. He suspects/knows he might be a warg as well, even if only with Ghost, and as he dies he wargs into his direwolf and there he stays (still in this plane) as his body lies dead into the snow at Castle Black. That, in itself might make the difference. His bond with Ghost is not half-formed, it's not something in divenire, it's there fully formed and nurtured for all the books. That is, imo, the best guess as to what will change Jon's case irrevocably for the others. He never actually died. Not his soul anyway. His body did die, but his soul remained in this plane (the same way Orell remained in his eagle after death) differently than the others. And that might mean the world of difference for him.
Also, the very fact that Jon is warging into Ghost means the Old Gods might have a hand into his resurrection, or the way it will be different than the others.
Now, onto the next question:
Will Mel use any kind of magic or rite?, will it involve blood magic like Drogo?
Good question. I have several theories pertaining how Jon might actually be resurrected. But before that, let me specify on a point, I never consider Drogo in the list of characters who are resurrected because Drogo did not die to begin with. The blood rite was done to avoid that he died, and he didn't die, though he was vegetative, he was somewhat responsive (could walk when helped, enjoyed the sun on his skin and ate when helped) and that makes the difference imo.
Now back onto Jon.
We know Mel has a soft spot for him and thinks him instrumental to the Lord's plan, so it wouldn't surprise me if she tried to resurrect him. Though I am more convinced it will happen disjointly from Mel's will.
Thoros, for example hadn't meant to wake Beric up again from death, he was merely doing a funeral rite and it brought him back. Instead Beric gave Lady Stoneheart the Last Kiss with the intention of giving her his life force.
I've seen theorized Jon might stand up from the fires of a funeral pyre and whilst that would serve the purpose of showing even starker the antithesis with Daenerys, I don't think that is how Martin will play it. As she walked willingly into it, whilst Jon will walk willingly out of it leaving the flames and ashes behind.
What I think might be more probable is that Mel might bestow on him the Last Kiss, a funeral rite (the same one Thoros used on Beric, Beric on Lady Stoneheart and the fire on DT, as she is bride of fire and the flames kiss her skin) and that might, in a first moment serve no purpose further than cleanse him for death.
Then, I fear some part will have both the death of Shireen and the death of Stannis. I know neither has yet happened in the books, but sadly Martin has told us that Shireen will die at the stake as a blood sacrifice for her kings blood. And it is brutal, but it does hold up with what we've been told of the red magic used by the red priests and the blood magic of Asshai.
Whilst the Last Kiss could wake Jon up, and force him from his place inside of Ghost's mind, I am afraid Martin is going to use either Shireen's sacrifice or Stannis' death as propellent for the blood magic to take.
Which replies to your, will it involve some kind of blood sacrifice?, and tbh, for how much I hate the very idea, I'm afraid it might be very much probable.
It could also be that Mel had been trying to resurrect Stannis and in the attempt actually did the opposite, and ended up resurrecting Jon. We know, as Mel repeats, that kings blood has power. Stannis has kings blood, but so has Jon, only, Mel doesn't know of it.
It would be terrible if Martin had the blood sacrifice of Shireen and later Stannis' death used to actually resurrect Jon. It's always blood magic, after all, a mistake possibly told by Mel's POV. It's also possible that Mel might try to use Jon's death and Shireen's to resurrect Stannis and instead ended up using both (Shireen and Stannis) to wake Jon up, only because, differently from the other two Jon is still in this plane so easier access for the magic of the rite to latch onto than the two dead Baratheons.
It would also serve the purpose of Martin to prove that “sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.” (Jon VI, ADWD — also notice how this is something Jon recalls Dalla has told him whilst realizing that Mel has power, and he tells it to Mel who replies that Dalla was a wise woman) the fact that Mel's magic might lead her astray and wake Jon up instead of Stannis (who she believes to be the Lord's champion) might bring to full circle the subplot opened by this conversation (also linked with the girl in grey and Jon's sister, so to speak).
I dislike very much the idea of blood sacrifice as well, and tbh I kind of keep hoping Martin might change his mind and have Shireen survive and sit on the Iron throne, maybe beside Bran or as his heir apparent to appease to the lords of the continent as she is the last Baratheon — a Stark boy and a Baratheon girl — (tho I know that is not how it's supposed to end, sadly 😔), but it does hold up with what Martin has created of this world of perilous and dangerous magic, so I am afraid it might be more probable than we'd like.
Not only it would create more guilt and trauma. Jon possibly had nothing to do with either death, so it will cause also rage. As we saw in the show when they had him exile Mel from the North when he discovered her part in the death of Shireen, since he still owed her his life, he didn't kill her (which is unbookJon of him but I digress). Jon does all he can to save children from the stake.
He swaps Gilly's baby with Mance's, only so that because if Mel comes around demanding to use him for a blood sacrifice since he has kings blood he can come clean and say ‘sorry, boy doesn't have any kind of kings blood. He's not Mance's boy’ and save both and that a child's death might be used even unwillingly to resurrect him would give him the hives, would make him rageful and furious, especially if he's more feral because of the time spent inside of Ghost' conscience.
He will possibly feel unworthy of it (he considers himself a turn cloak, a bastard and a oathbreaker and Shireen was kind and good, soft, a princess which would remind him of his own sisters) and even more furious about it.
More trauma on Jon's shoulders, which would be terrible, also will possibly swarm him down into some sort of depression as we see in the show (until he meets Sansa that is) and that would also explain why he would attach himself so feralitly on Sansa's safety. He died to save a sister (only to discover it wasn't his sister to begin with), may find the other in need of help and with what happened to Shireen? He might grow even more protective.
It's all very tragic and traumatic and bittersweet, because let's face it everyone wants Jon's back alive, but not at such a price. Still I am afraid it's what we're going to get, sadly.
Sorry if this saddened you, it saddened me as well (because before your questions I had not considered the involvement that Shireen's death or/and Stannis' death might have in Jon's resurrection), but it does make sense, sadly.
Hope I have replied to all you asked!, stay tuned for the complete meta. I swear it will come! I wish you a very nice day and as always sending all my love. ~G.
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I respect a lot of your opinions and theories but i think the one about Jon’s revival (and him being in a comatose state rather than dead) would be a pretty massive cop out if it happened like that. Beric and catelyn foreshadow Jon’s fate, and both their stories include severe physical scars and deformation as well as mental degradation.
I don't believe it would be a cop-out. Escaping certain death through quasi-magical intervention is just as established as literal resurrection or animated dead bodies.
Neither Beric nor Lady Stoneheart are actually alive. Their wounds don't heal, they are undead. They can die again, lose their magical animation, but they are not properly alive. Similarly to Coldhands, actually. The greatest difference to the wights is the fact that they retain proper personal autonomy and much larger aspects of their memories and personalities, while the wights do have memory access (Othor knew where to find Mormont) but don't serve their own will. Jon becoming a wight is... unlikely. Jon coming back undead is unlikely.
Literal resurrection from death to proper life only applies to the dragon eggs at this point. It required blood magic and human sacrifice at an immense level and it would not leave Jon damaged and degraded as you describe.
Bran and Drogo, meanwhile were magically prevented from dying. The presence of the wolves helped Bran, Mirri's blood magic ritual "helped" Drogo. Both needed to be fed, their bodies showed signs of healing. But they were not magically "fixed". Bran was paralyzed, Drogo was as mentally gone as he had been in the throes of his infection.
A parallel to Drogo or Bran or even Tyrion (unconscious for weeks) or Baelor (post-viper attack) would be just as valid. Tyrion was scarred and bitter, Baelor was said to be "mad".
Jon doesn't need to die to be marked by this experience.
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hello locked tomb fandom !
please tell me what you would like to see in the document i mentioned a few days ago, where i try to make an analysis of TLT and to write down every relevant information in the same document, to make it easier to create theories. for now i have written +20 pages, and my list of things to put in it is this :
• information about each House (planet, Lyctor, names, other thoughts).
• John + Alecto + the Lyctors (name meanings, main informations, pre-Res,…)
• a small analysis of the poem Annabel Lee by Edgar A Poe and all its parallels to John/Alecto
• House characters on which I have something to say (mostly about name meanings, from the name guides but also from my own brain + theories i’ve seen)
• BOE characters (name meanings and/or theories) + Blood of Eden itself
• Resurrection Beasts (status, appearance, which planet they might be)
• the River + the Tower + Hell/Beyond the River (layers of the River, stoma, whose souls are in Hell, what Hell is, the Tower ciphers, thoughts about the Tower and the devils)
• informations we have on all different variations of Lyctorhood (perfect lyctorhood, regular lyctorhood, imperfect lyctorhood with Gideon/Pyrrha and Harrow/Gideon, Grand Lysis) + other thoughts/comments on Lyctorhood
• comments on every chapter of GtN, HtN and NtN, with a color code to note on which re-read / after which books we can notice the meaning of a quote. not a summary of the chapters, i’m mostly re-writing all the annotations i put in my copies. this is probably what will take me the longest, i’m doing it for GtN right now and it’s exhausting
• for each chapter, which skull is represented.
• for each John chapter in NtN, the bible verse (+ the bible verse in the ARC)
(for some of these things i use posts made by users here, and if i still have the source i put it in the doc)
please tell me if you have any other ideas ! my hyperfixation is hyperfixating, i just think about TLT all the time
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