#right next to destiel and 'all the ships people thought were queerbaits when they were ACTUALLY reading too much into it for once'

[batarangsoundsdumb]

How we feeling about tims apparent gay awakening ☄

#bro he's been gay and awake this whole entire time #gay people are either insomniacs who dont know what sleep is or fucking idiots who wake up at 6 in the morning #just i'm so afraid it's gonna be the biggest queerbait of the century #queerbait hall of fame #right next to destiel and 'all the ships people thought were queerbaits when they were ACTUALLY reading too much into it for once' #love timmy boy #love of my life #tim drake #red robin #dc #dcu #dc comics #batman #batfam #ask #anon #bataranswers

[charlie-minion]

Could the same SPN finale make a little more sense with some additions/changes?

I’ve had the idea for this post stuck in my head for days now, but with every new conspiracy theory and every new eventuality in the fandom, it became difficult to cool down enough to write something less ship-related and more narrative-focused.

What Supernatural and non-SPN fans have to understand is that a lot of us have expressed disappointment and frustration after 15x20, not because of Destiel (that’s just one part of the whole problem), but because the finale doesn’t make sense. Everything was leading up to something beautifully crafted until the end of 15x19. Beyond that, it’s hard to understand what happened. The story rendered all the character growth irrelevant, invalidated the themes of free will and “family don’t end in blood”, regressed to the original brother codependency they spent 15 years trying to overcome, made a queer non-binary character in a male vessel and a deaf female character basically disposable, and kept the show’s reputation of queerbaiting and misogyny until its very last breath.

That’s not going out with a bang! At least not a positive one. We all were ready to mourn Supernatural, but we wanted to feel proud of its legacy, and somehow TPTB managed to tarnish that legacy in less than 45 minutes. What a way to ruin the other more than 13,600 minutes of story!

It doesn’t matter who is to blame (The CW, Robert Singer, Andrew Dabb). It doesn’t matter why it happened (homophobia, censorship, marketing for Walker, bad writing). What matters is that at the end of the day, the finale that aired is what we got and that’s going to hurt for a long time. It hurts even more when we realize that the same finale could have easily made more sense, even without being perfect.

That’s what I want to do in this post. I want to show you how things would have been less jarring (for the fandom), while still keeping the goal to please the general audience.

Before I begin rewriting 15x20, I have to mention that I talked to my conservative boomer sister about the finale. She hasn’t watched the second half of season 15 yet (she’s waiting for Netflix to have it), but she’s been watching the show for a long time (she introduced me to it 8 years ago). She’s the perfect example of a viewer from the general audience. Loves the show but doesn’t give a second thought to it and definitely isn’t paying attention to character development or themes. Doesn’t engage with fandom, actors, or any of the show’s social media. Pure GA! When I told her the series finale had aired, she asked me about it and I refused to give her spoilers. Because of that, she told me the ending SHE wanted. She said she would be happy with either of two possibilities: the boys retiring and finally living a normal life OR they going to heaven and finding peace at last. She saw Sam and Dean as a unit, which means: both retiring or both going to heaven. AND she saw Cas as part of that, too. She wasn’t so sure about Jack. And for her, we could use the “Eileen who?” and it wouldn’t be a joke. She didn’t remember her.

NOW IT’S TIME TO WRITE A NEW VERSION OF 15X20 (KEEPING 15X18 AND 15X19 EXACTLY THE SAME AS THEY AIRED). This will be a very long post:

The opening remains almost the same. No “Carry on my wayward son” to induce feels. Too soon and too predictable! (Reasoning: Everyone was expecting it to play right there, so it would bring more tears at the end)

In the opening, after the scene where Jack says “People won’t need to pray to me or sacrifice to me”, we also see the scene from 15x19 where he says “I won’t be hands on”. Then we see the rest of the opening as it was. (Reasoning: People needed to be reminded that Jack would NOT intervene and that’s why later on, he would NOT save Dean).

We get the same montage, but when Sam takes a break from his morning run, we see him reading a message on his phone. A simple: “Hey Sam, what’s new?” from Eileen. Sam smiles fondly and begins to type a response we don’t get to see. The next scene continues the same, Sam making breakfast. (Reasoning: A text was a very simple way to show that Eileen was alive and still in communication with Sam).

The montage slowly ends as Sam enters the library (not after he sits down). He seems to be talking on the phone but we only hear an “I’ll tell him. Bye”. As he walks towards the table, he tells Dean: “Charlie says hi. Mentioned something about Stevie’s perfect scrambled eggs we have to try.” Dean’s answer is “Awesome!” (Reasoning: Just ONE line was needed to unbury Charlie and her girlfriend. ONE LINE).

Sam sits down, opens his laptop and everything continues the same. The title card shows for the last time.

YOU SEE? In the first 4 minutes they could have acknowledged that THREE WOMEN were alive and safe: Eileen, Charlie and Stevie. It wasn’t hard! Don’t blame bad writing on Covid! Now let’s continue.

Sam and Dean arrive at the Pie Fest just the same. Dean goes to get some “damn pie” and Sam takes out his phone. He dials and when someone picks up, he says “Hey, Jody, how are ya?” We don’t hear the rest of the conversation. The scene moves to Dean coming with his 6 portions of pie. Dean sits down and Sam tells him, “Talked to Jody. The other hunters haven’t had much work lately.” “That’s good, isn’t it?”, Dean says. All we get from Sam is “Yeah.” So, Dean looks at him and asks “what’s wrong?” like it happened in the episode. (Reasoning: Again, a couple of lines to make sure the people that were killed in 15x18 are safe and remembered by the boys in 15x20. Why is this important? Because they’re family!)

The conversation about Sam’s sad face happens the same. Sam is the one that mentions Cas and Jack. (Reasoning: Because this episode was so Sam-centered, it’s obvious he was the protagonist in the finale. If we see him communicating with Eileen, Charlie, and Jody, then it’s NORMAL, even expected of him to be the one to bring up Cas and Jack). Without these additions, it’s harder for people to understand that most of the finale was NOT from Dean’s POV but from Sam’s.

Dean’s “if we don’t keep living, then all that sacrifice is gonna be for nothing” stays the same. (Reasoning: I believe it’s necessary that the show sticks to the importance of “letting go” and “what is dead should stay dead” for the first time ever because the message is “even when you lose someone you love, you can still find some form of happiness and keep living, for you and for them, because that’s what they would have wanted”. Bringing someone back means “I can’t live without you”, and that’s just more codependency. It’s how the demon deals began in the Winchester family –Mary being the first one to do it. This would explain why Dean didn’t ask Jack to bring Cas back, as he asked Chuck. He understood Jack was NOT going to interfere anymore and accepted it. Besides, when Cas saved Dean from hell, Dean thought he didn’t deserve to be saved. This time that Cas saved him, Dean finally feels worthy enough to accept that YES, HE DESERVED TO BE SAVED ALL ALONG, just as much as he deserved to be loved by that angel of the Lord. In this scene, Dean also says that the pain is not gonna go away, which means that from HIS PERPECTIVE, it still hurts that Cas is not there. The problem is that the finale is not showing his POV but Sam’s.  

Sam pies Dean on the face just the same. (Reasoning: That part was just to avoid ending the scene on a sad note).

Everything related to the case happens exactly the same. (Reasoning: At this point, people don’t really care about the MoTW, they care about Sam and Dean).

NOTE 1: The case is important to show that even when the Winchesters are finally free of Chuck’s influence, they CHOOSE to keep hunting. It isn’t something they do out of revenge or because it is their destiny anymore. Maybe they were forced into the life at first, but they’ve learned to find joy in saving people. Being hunters is who they are. However, the fact that a job application was shown on Dean’s desk is also important because it means he was willing to explore what else was there for him besides hunting. Maybe he could find a balance? Maybe he was thinking it was time to quit? We will never know! The thing is that Sam only finds out about it when he goes into Dean’s room after his brother is dead, so maybe that’s when it hits him that Dean wanted to explore his options, and Sam starts to think it’s time for him to do the same.  

NOTE 2: I believe the masks the vampires are wearing is something we can blame on covid. If they had their faces covered, it was easier to use people from the SPN crew for some scenes, instead of using more actors unnecessarily.

NOTE 3: When Sam and Dean arrive at the barn, we get 3 visuals to remember Cas in the same scene (those are for the fandom, not for the general audience): a) the barn, obviously; b) the bag that resembles Cas’ trenchcoat so much that many people thought that’s what it was; and c) two feathers hanging on Dean’s right when he opens the trunk.

The scene with the throwing star happens the same. (Reasoning: The episode is still told from Sam’s point of view, so it makes sense that he fondly sees his brother as a man child).

Jenny the vampire? Uhhh… I mean, it’s not the best piece of writing I’ve ever seen, but it’s not the worst, so okay. That stays the same. (Reasoning: There is none, but she’s not what really ruined the finale, so whatever!)

Dean still dies impaled on a rebar. (Reasoning: OK. HERE ME OUT!!! I hate as much as everyone else that Dean is killed. I think it’s lazy writing, but that’s what we got and I can’t change that in this re-write, so if killing Dean is what we have to work around, then, memes aside, death by rebar is better and here’s why. There’s no one to blame for Dean’s death: no Chuck (the boys were willingly hunting even after Chuck was defeated), no vampires (they were all killed and were no real threat, so it was impossible for Sam to begin a quest for revenge against all vampires. What was Sam going to blame? A rebar? Can you kill it? Hunt it? NO. It was an ordinary death, a stupid accident. Just like any person can die at any moment by slipping on a banana peel. Is it a good death? No, but it’s good to know he doesn’t die trying to save Sam or Cas, because Dean Winchester is NOT willing to give up his life in exchange for anyone else’s anymore.

Sam takes out his phone and says he’ll call for help, but his phone is more visible to the audience. He dials and it’s almost to his ear when Dean stops him and Sam hesitantly hangs up. (Reasoning: People have complained that Sam didn’t call an ambulance, but actually he tried to. It’s just that people missed that part, maybe?)

After Sam puts his phone back in his pocket and says “OK” to Dean, he adds, “I’ll pray to Jack”. Dean’s immediate answer is: “No hands on, remember?” “But Dean”, Sam says, and Dean interrupts him with “OK listen to me” and tells Sam what to do with the kids they rescued. (Reasoning: Jack is God now and how come Sam didn’t remember? The viewers remembered, so it was necessary to include a line that ruled the option out and that showed Dean didn’t want Jack to intervene. The rest was fine).

The lines “You knew it was always gonna end like this for me. It was supposed to end like this, right?” disappear completely from Dean’s monologue. (Reasoning: This is the most problematic part of Dean’s dying speech. He fought God and earned free will, he is no longer controlled by fate or destiny. Accepting that he is supposed to die on a hunt regresses his character development and denies his desire to keep living. This was a total mistake and should be removed).

Instead, if going to heaven is the ending TPTB wanted to give Dean, at least he should say something more empowering. Sam tells him that both of them are going to take the kids somewhere safe. Dean answers and the scene follows like this: “No. Sammy, we made our choice, didn’t we?”, he smiles with difficulty. “We were free to write our own story and we did. We decided to keep saving people, hunting things. Because it’s what we love despite the risks.” (Reasoning: If Dean’s going to die it doesn’t have to feel like it was always meant to be that way. He should die knowing that he exerted his free will until his last breath).

The rest of the dialogue between Sam and Dean happens almost the same. Except that instead of Dean saying “‘cause when it all came down to it, it was always you and me. It’s always been you and me”, he says “’cause when it all came down to it, we’ve always had each other’s backs. Always.” And instead of Sam saying “Don’t leave me”, he says “I still can try to save you.” (Reasoning: It sounds way less codependent without diminishing the importance of their love and support for each other).

Besides, let’s change Dean’s “I’m not leaving you” for “You don’t have to be alone. You’ve still got family.” The rest stays the same word by word. (Reasoning: Dean reminds Sam that “family don’t end in blood” and there are still lots of people out there who love Sam and will be with him).

“I love you so much, my baby brother” stays exactly the same. (Reasoning: Dean always had trouble to express the big L word. I always believed and said many times that before Dean could say “I love you” to Cas or any other character, he had to say it to Sam. So, this is important as part of Dean speaking his truth).

The last part when Dean insists Sam tell him that it’s okay stays the same. (Reasoning: It’s the final moment when the codependency cycle breaks. No more running in circles).

The forehead touch between them stays the same. (Reasoning: I think I would do something similar if my sister were dying. I know there are w*ncest shippers out there, but it shouldn’t matter because the moment feels appropriate for that kind of goodbye). 

See? There are changes but not too many. That’s why I’ve been saying that it was easier to get it right, yet they still managed to screw it up.

The second montage stays the same. (Reasoning: Life goes on, but of course Sam has to mourn).

The call about a case in Austin remains the same. (Reasoning: It’s the only part of the episode where someone from the found family is mentioned, so I think that Donna’s name is perfect in that moment. However, without the other additions I’ve made in this re-write, that off-hand mention feels too little. Its purpose was to tell the viewers that if Donna was alive, so were the others, but the way the episode was executed gave us an isolated Sam, incapable of having friends and a family without Dean).  

After 30 minutes of Sam’s POV, let’s finally see the last bit of Dean’s POV that we’ll ever get.

Dean arrives in Heaven and Bobby receives him. All their conversation stays almost the same, except that after mentioning Rufus and before saying “and your mom and dad…”, Bobby adds an “Ellen and Jo let me borrow their place”. (Reasoning: If you’re gonna put the man outside the Harvelle’s place, at least mention them for Jack’s sake!).

Besides, after Bobby tells Dean that Sam will be along and that time in heaven is different, Dean gives a small smile and says, “Well, there’s no rush. I want him to have a long, happy life.” Bobby answers with: “I would expect nothing less from you, boy” and tells him he got everything he could ever want, etc., just like it happened in the episode, and finishes by asking “What are you gonna do now, Dean?” (Reasoning: It’s important we know for sure that Dean is NOT codependent anymore and that he doesn’t expect to have a miserable afterlife just because his brother is not there yet).

Instead of saying “I think I’ll go for a drive” Dean says, “I think I know what I want” and walks towards baby. Bobby still tells him to have fun. (Reasoning: “Know what I want” is ambiguous enough to help us introduce the last piece of the puzzle, the one thing Dean’s wanted for many seasons and has never been able to express).

 The biggest change is coming:

Dean gets on the Impala and has a moment of silence while he contemplates the wheel. He begins to pray: “Hey, Cas, you got your ears on? I hear you’ve been busy working on this updated Heaven with Jack. You were right about him, Cas. You had faith in him and he saved us all. You could always see the best in everyone, even when they couldn’t see it themselves. Even when I couldn’t see it myself. There’s so much I want to tell you. Maybe you can visit sometime. I hope prayer’s still a thing up here.” (Reasoning: Dean’s side of the confession was unaddressed and that was terrible writing. If there was no way to get him to speak his truth textually, at least take him as close to it as possible).

We listen to a flutter of wings and a “Hello, Dean” from the back seat. We don’t see Cas, but the camera shows us Dean’s cocky smile and he says “Took you long enough.” He turns around slowly. End of scene. (Reasoning: The flutter of wings confirms that angels have their wings back and ties that loose end. The final “hello, Dean” was highly anticipated and it made sense. If Misha couldn’t be there to film, for whatever reason, or if the problem was the kind of conversation Dean and Cas would have, then don’t show it, but leave the door open. Let us know that the two characters were reunited and will talk, but whatever Dean has to say is so private that it’s not for us to hear, only for Cas.  

We finally hear “Carry on my wayward son” and get a montage that begins with Sam playing with his kid. Then we see Dean driving, super happy, and Sam living his life to the fullest. We still get Sam’s Blurry Wife, BUT… we see pictures of Eileen in the living room (not just of John, Mary, Sam, and Dean). We also see photos of Jody, Donna, Charlie, and AU!Bobby. (Reasoning: FAMILY DON’T END IN BLOOD).

The scene where Sam is wearing the party wig and looks miserable inside the Impala is cut and nobody talks about it ever again because it never existed. We get a scene of Sam teaching his son how to fix the car instead. (Reasoning: First of all, don’t give Sam a life where years later he’s still in pain. Second of all, the fucking wig was a crime).

Sam’s dying scene stays the same. The only thing is that his son signs a couple of phrases to him before actually speaking. (Reasoning: More confirmation that Dean Jr. is Eileen’s son).

We hear the final “Evanescence-like Carry on my wayward son”. Again we see the photos and there’s family other than the Winchesters there. (Reasoning: Obvious at this point).

The rest is exactly the same. The show began with two brothers and it’s okay if the last scene is with the two brothers reunited in Heaven. At this point, the other parts of the story are acceptable enough for us to feel happy that they get to see each other again after years of a happy (after)life.

Now look me in the eye and tell me this was too hard to execute. I still think that bad writing is a thing we can’t deny here, adding to the possible meddling of the Network. Maybe Dabb wanted us to hate the finale because he couldn’t get away with what he truly wanted. If that was his intention, then kudos to him. He and The CW really gave us a finale that only 30% of the fandom liked.

I hope you guys have enjoyed this and it helps to give you some peace of mind. In my heart, this was the finale we got. It wasn’t perfect, but it didn’t drop the ball either.

#supernatural #15x20 #spn 15x20 #spn finale #rewrite #dean winchester #dean deserved better #cas deserved better #destiel #the characters deserved better #we deserved better #it was easier to get it right #yet they screwed up big time #alternate ending

[thesharondefenseleague]

Yesss thank you for bringing up the Sam Bucky queerbaiting like the moment they ended up on top of each other?

They knew absolutely what they were doing how it could be seen and that there was an audience out there that would love that indication that they were appealing to with that content. But of course its just to get their money and views and they never intend to follow through on that indication and loose their homophobic fans.

So ya absolute queer bait. Steve and Bucky never had moments like that. Ya they had dramatic maybe slightly cheesy heartfelt dialogue but thats not the same thing.

I so often see SteveBucky on the same list as Destiel or Johnlock for like examples of queerbaited couples and it seems like fans just see queerbaiting as any duo that could have had romantic potential that they liked and wasn't made canon. And like i get it you feel strongly for your otp.

But don't call it queerbaiting when its not. Especially next to those more insidious queerbaiting examples. That makes people think its a shipping thing rather than a minipulative marketing tactic that is often at the expense of minority group that craves representation.

There is that joke about straight girls being the ones who ship these gay ships and get salty about not seeing their favs make out. But there are alot of lgbt people who ( no suprise) gravitate towards these non straight ships too.

So many times ive seen teen girls get shit on for shipping gay ships calling it them fetishizing gay men just for having gay ships and later see that they were actually either not straight or not girls or both. They were just struggling with their sexuality not ready to come out and gravitated towards reprentations of things that were less heteronormative but wasn't associated exclusively with gay people.

And while im sure there were straight people out there who really wanted their gay otp to be canon its the young lgbt people who gonna get screwed over the most by this queerbaiting. They were young and hopeful and thought this mainstream thing they loved was validating them when it was really just leading them on for views. This isnt exclusive to lgbt people either.

Ive seen this happen with black characters too where the promise of them being important and relevant is used to draw in a black people get them watching to drive up viewership and then sideline them ( like say in Star Wars).

Its one thing if you want to put in representation and arent allowed to so you imply as much as possible. You see that often with childrens television for example. But this is almost the opposite of that. Its more insidious and often despite purposely baiting in show they will gaslight in interviews and say fans are reading too much into it. And sometimes there will later be evidence that baiting was discussed in the writers room.

Its all a huge dick move that people are complaining about and putting in say Stucky ,which didnt do that, on the same queerbaiting list of Johnlock or Destiel, which did, kinda makes that level of queerbaiting into just fan favorite gay ships that didn't become canon and people are salty.

Yeah, one of those ships is not like the others. There are a few video essays online about how queerbaiting was used to get fans while the creators simultaneously (for J/L, we all know what happened on 5 November) denied it would be canon. Steve and Bucky on the other hand haven’t been given the J/L treatment. Queerbaiting has to be on the J/L levels of insidious or the Betty and Veronica kissing in the trailer and going right into nowhere levels of baiting for views.

But Sam and Bucky. Is this why we don’t see Sam paired with anyone? Is Sam closeted?? Seriously, let’s run with this. What if Sam is closeted, because it’s hard enough to be a black man who is in the army, then a superhero who is an extremely public figure (because forget secret identities), who is then Captain America and probably the most famous person in the world, and here’s this guy who he wants to be friends with and also kind of prove his worth to, and he’s fun to mess around with, but fuck he’s kind of cute, with that face he makes when he’s messed with, and then you roll around in a field like that...

I would like to point out that in these past few years, we have collectively grown out of a time where m/m ships had a lot of fetishization in fandom. I don’t think we realize it, but I remember how much there used to be (and especially trans fetishization, I haven’t seen that in years when that used to be a huge thing). It’s nice that now we can see these characters as more human and less thing to get off to. And it does have a lot to do with LGBTQ+ fans given more of a voice in fandom. That being said, you can’t just say Steve and Bucky are queerbaited. The writers and directors have never once used that idea to sell you on their films. Their actors have never once played it up for the camera to mess with their fans. The only character that has that is Peggy. (Someone else remembers those being a thing with Agent Carter, right??) And in a time where Marvel is going to have canon queer relationships on-screen, we need to show support of them and stand for the characters who risk having their identities erased, especially when teams like the Young Avengers come around.

But also there is a lot of subtext to support that Sam could have a coming out narrative that I don’t think will ever happen, but would be a plot twist conclusion to the #givecapaboyfriend movement from way back. I mean, Sam has deliberately not been given a romantic story. This could be why. (But don’t hold out for it. Oh god, what if Sam and Bucky are the queerbaited ship??? Another plot twist.)

~Mod R

[tonyglowheart]

This entire thing is a rant, feel free to ignore it, but I saw your post about how destiel fans can’t win in this context, and yeah. So have some rambles.

I’ve been thinking about the fact we (current spn/destiel fans) can’t win all night... I’ve seen so many people talking about how homophobic it is - and while I would very much like to argue, as every point I’ve seen made by a non-spn fan has been wrong so far, if I did everyone inside the fandom would agree and everyone outside would either call me straight or pity me for believing it’s okay.

(Cas wasn’t even sent to hell lmao. He was sent to angel death (the empty), a place he has escaped in the past. Other points, like that meta about spn has been predicting exactly this for months, that Dean ended up sobbing on the floor because he was so upset, like that death means next to nothing on spn, like that there is two episodes left, etc etc. you feel me right? I just don’t want to post wank to other spn blogs atm, we’re getting enough frustration as it is, no need to add to it.

It’s also worth pointing out that the bar is very, very low. Spn is a prominent TV show - not a Netflix show, or indie, or whatever - and it just said “main character in gay love saved the world”. [insert gif of ghostfacers dude saying that gay love can pierce through the veil of death and save the day here]

I just saw someone saying that spn having Naomi try to brainwash Cas out of loving dean makes spn homophobic (it is a conversion therapy parallel). My first response to that is that Naomi was the villain lmao? I guess we can’t write villains doing anything homophobic because having villains do homophobic things makes, uh - checks notes - villains look homophobic, and clearly we can’t have that.

There certainly are legitimate things to criticise spn about, but this isn’t it lol.

Also now some people are unironically trying to cancel Jensen because “his acting was homophobic, and so he’s clearly homophobic”, nevermind that he’s an actor and his character struggles with understanding his emotions (which I think he played excellently, myself. That scene had a very Dean delayed emotional response), nevermind the support he’s given to us queers in the past. Like. Idek man.

We would have been laughed at if we got no destiel, too.

It would have been worse, had the writers pulled a dumbledore. At this point I also trust the writers not to pull a GoT - they have explicitly criticised that ending in spn’s canon.

Spn’s writers did that by making the main villain of this season, Chuck / God, say GoT had a good ending. To reiterate a previous point I had: villains do bad things because they’re bad. And the bad things they do make them bad. For the people out there not still following, if someone does something in a story and it makes them a villain, that is explicitly telling you the story (and probably the writers) thinks that thing is bad. In this case, Chuck likes to write things for him, and we the audience have been shown and told that is bad.

Apparently thinking a gay confession is good in 2020 makes me straight. Seems unlikely, but whatever. Sorry for the length, I guess I went overboard, I’ve been holding it in lol. Anyway, DESTIEL IS CANON 💚💙 hope you have a good night

Helloo supernatural anon I hope you are living your best life right now. Yeah I’m like..... skeptical and leery myself but having lived through some absolute garbage discourse that is general purity wank, as well as the C/QL greater fandom here and on Twitter I find myself... much more wanting to question the “general wisdom” of things esp in terms of negativity, bc a lot of the time I find.... it’s wrong? Like so wrong. Or at least presents such an incomplete picture of the whole situation and also presents it in such a removed context that words that have meaning and are operationalized in a certain way for a reason, no longer have meaningful usage.

Anyway I don’t... know too much about the specifics of Spn but someone I follow is into it and talks a lot about the Gnostic stuff and that all was very fascinating to me, and I also have been grappling a lot with cultural Christianity bc of cmedia and the way ppl just *clenches fist* unthinkingly or uncritically slap some Christian norms on it and call it a day 😩 help I’m Tired. My thing here being... I actually got tired of the uncritical “superhell”s at some pt bc I am, in fact, incredibly exhausted with cultural Christianity, and because it does seem like, even possibly(?) without the Gnostic stuff it’s different from a “hell” or other Protestant-derived afterlife concept, and also yeah that it wasn’t seeded out of nowhere, it was set up to happen, which then... lends credence to the idea that whatever the current era of Spn is doing, the current showrunners are doing it with purpose.

And idk I just... refuse to believe the concept that ALL of the fans of Spn - esp the ones who have been following it still, or got back into it and are following it currently, are acting under delusion or are fooling themselves into liking it or thinking it’s good or whatever. I personally find that kinda infantilizing and patronizing and playing into issues of dismissing things women and/or other marginalized identities like.

Plus I find the concept that (from what I think I’ve been seeing Spn fans say) that the current era of the show is quite actively grappling with itself, its past, its legacy. to be very interesting and compelling; it hearkens back to like an old lore kind of feeling, of a thing that has grown into a nigh undefeatable monster and realizing that, also realizing that the only way to defeat itself is through grappling with its own nature and transforming and transmuting itself into something else. I personally find that more plausible and compelling than “Supernatural has been actively and continuously queerbaiting for 15 homophobic homophobic years., so right now we’re all very sorry for you because this maybe is no longer queerbaiting but it’s still homophobic and it can never be anything different ever.” I’ve been sort of tangentially aware of Spn thru the years and didn’t we agree, around the time of that in-universe play about Spn and with the lil Destiel shoutout, that Spn has come a ways as far as coming to terms with its fandom and working to treat its fans better? Why the sudden regression into “oh no, Supernatural is and forever will be homophobic and a hate crime”? 🤔 

The rest under a cut bc the ask is already long and then my rambling will get longer-

But yeah I mean..... I get that the legacy of Supernatural has been certifiably Rough, but I think people also forget how different of a time 2005 was? Hell, how different of a time 2015 was, even, prior to, say, Obergefell v. Hodges. Now I’m not saying that to blanket-excuse Supernatural, but like, you look at mainstream shows from the era and... there’s a lot of shit lmao. The fact that Supernatural has existed this long seems to me like.... maybe we CAN look at how it’s developed through the years vs just insisting it is what it was 15, 10, hell, 5 years ago. Especially since, to my knowledge, there’s been showrunner changes? Which seems to me like it would... affect things? I mean honestly, I remember back when I got into Spn for a hot second because of Castiel, I remember watching panel, Q&A, etc vids thru the years, and like... I thought we agreed that... it was the fans who were going a bit far pushing the shipping question like literally ALL the time to the actors, who are not in control of the show and.... like at the time.... that could have had personal implications for them? And yes homophobia bad, and people can still be allies despite that, but again like.... I do feel like - from what I’ve seen - that these guys were NOT ready to deal with a lot of that but they’ve (okay Jensen I’m talking about Jensen here) genuinely grown and learned? Also how many years ago was the essay autograph thing that people keep trotting out, like what year was it in and what year of spn was it, and what were the prevailing opinions on LGBT issues and bisexuality then.

I’ve been seeing some murmurings of identity politicsing surrounding ppl who enjoy Supernatural, and I’m sorry that that’s happening to you, it really fucking sucks and it’s also the dumbest way to “make” or “win” an argument because it shouldn’t ever be a final determiner, just factors to consider when considering what life experiences might have informed someone else’s PoV and views as well as maybe how you can better communicate with them. Instead of it being a “weapon” or “tool” to either dismiss someone or de facto validate an argument.

Also yeah I get it that you don’t want to send discourse to spn blogs bc I imagine you guys ARE actively grappling with all the bs rn and it’s a lot. Even just from like, the stuff I see around, I’m like tired of it. I’m genuinely having more fun with ppl who are having a good time with Supernatural than the ppl who are hating on it, even in this sort of backhanded “oh we’re not clowning YOU we’re clowning the writers and showrunners who think you should be satisfied with this,” when... yeah? the people who HAVE been watching the show and therefore... know what’s up.. DO seem to be? And all this based on *fake gasp* context. And that’s where the backhandedness becomes kind of poisonous to me, because it implies that it IS bad, and that you SHOULDN’T be satisfied, but poor little you are but don’t worry, we’re not making fun of YOU for liking garbage, you’re just the hapless victim who is consuming the garbage bc... idk, whatever reasons ppl are coming up with ig.

idk man it’s 2020. Fandom isn’t activism, performative or otherwise, it’s okay to let people enjoy things even if you think they’re “objectively” bad, and like... I don’t know if people can call something bad when they’re not even working with the whole context and instead are dealing with rumor and reputation. 

#supernatural cw #I tag this for ppl who I know want nothing to do with spn rn and are blacklisting and so it doesn't end up in main tag #Anonymous #asks answered #long post

[incarnateirony]

*Sits down at desk*

*calmly files through books in front of a fireplace to classical music* *glances up at the camera* Oh, hello. *demurely pulls off glasses*

What makes a rights movement work? Is it the dialogue? The discourse? The trolling? 

Tonight, I thought I’d tell you a little story and let you decide.

---

...*just looks to Good Omens fandom* So we have... *flips through* An accepted canon queer pairing between two leads, with no rival ships. The singular author has been receptive to queer readings, as has both of the actors, even if one clarified he doesn’t “play it like that.” But by authorial support, vague as it was, it was canon. 

...*flips channel to season 10 supernatural fandom* So here we have an accusation of queerbait between two leads with a similar story, with several major rival ships. Of the multiple authors, several have been supportive, many silent, one actor said he plays it like that, the other clarified he doesn’t.  Antis, often rival-shippers, heckled. Cas was a villain, not a friend.

*Plays through til’ Season 12 - 3 seasons ago - “doesn’t exist”* *1997 popup spam*

... *flips channel to season 13 supernatural fandom* So here we have antis having a panicked discussion about how Dabb could canonize Destiel without any sort of admission or physical engagement for it to be valid, while admitting at the actor that used to say he didn’t play it seems okay with it now, as well as it becoming an official marketing line, which they later denied. They mutually aired at Cas not even being cared for in public, while saying Dean cared more about him than Sam in their own lane. (x) (x) (x) (x) I mean, between them screaming at How Dare They Pander With The 13.05 Ending Being Romantically Shot. But everyone forgot that I guess.

*flips to season 14* Let’s see, genderswap, identical but truncated couple, same landmarks... no rivals... *checks box* cool, everyone sees canon.

...*flips to season 15 fandom* *gestures at the everything, including the storytelling style they described that could be used to be amply canon by time flashbacks and Cas’ death* 

*looks at parts of shipping fandom trying to argue with season 10 anti fandom takes, but simultaneously repeating them*

*looks at season 13 anti fandom*

*files through recently sanitized anti walls that went on their third rage tear about the show being pandered by being romantic, since the current showrunner turn over* *clicks channel* “Destiel is real” - Jensen *menu flip* “Sam has better taste/Dean has no taste--” *clicks next* “domestic dispute--” --Jensen after filming 15.09 *clicks* “Our characters would be fucking [on another network]” --Misha after 15.09 *clicks to major media channel* “Breakup” - TVG *flips through other multiple TVG Destiel ads over to Variety* Relationship-- *flips across to soap opera reporters* 15.03 Dark point in the romance-- *flips to extrafanon, nonprofessional hubs* Hm, apologies for viewing it with a heteronormative lens until now from nonshippers that usually don’t cover the show, while fandom hangs itself on its own hubs in precarious silence or refusal to address the most challenging material. Alright.

*flips to modern marketing* Hm, DeanCas commercials *clicks* Oh right, that official Join The Hunt Destiel shirt that was printed and tagged and receipted like that, that they tried to tantrum offline *clicks* OH right that OTHER Destiel canon pride shirt that Stands just HAPPENED to make this year.

*turns off television* *blinks* *rubs brows*

*tents fingers*

So at some very bizarre point, things have seemed to switch around here.

At one point, Destiel fandom was avid that the romance mattered more than the physicality, even for canonicity. They, themselves, pointed out how homophobic and double-standard it was to demand a kiss when not all hetero couples need them to be valid. But admittedly, back then, the subtext pool was shallow. A veneer placed by a few key authors.

And yet today, while antis scream in waves, their own predictions and fears of how Dabb would handle Destiel coming true, their own “kiss or it doesn’t count” logic (presented only to positive fandom, of course, with the above links of their conversations among themselves where they knew that didn’t matter) seems to have transmitted like a disease rused in representation battles but in the name of arguing with them, of validating them, of giving them any sort of relevance in a show that overtly mocks them and while they riot and fit and convulse and delete and recant opinions, spewing things they don’t even believe anymore (above links.)

it's LITERALLY the same tactics as in Trump politics, where they just flood bullshit they don't even believe to keep people elevating them having any relevance at all in the conversation and distracting them from the actual core conversation/content. Disseminating misinformation and confusion to the conversation. Hell, going so far as to spend months building fake blogs to integrate to the culture and later spread bullshit (which was its own comedy act in the end)

Also the same tactic TAW used to try to inflate completely made up bullshit bad PR about Mish by getting well meaning fans of his floating the conversation by defending him and keeping it in the public eye. ITS THE SAME SHIT.

And yet here we are, with this fandom’s version of alt right dialogue having infected its respective progressive left, with tinhats instead of redhats vaguely yelling about Dabbama and spewing pointless self-defeating nonsense, but at some point -- somehow these fandom MSGAhats managed to successfully implant their ideology in the fandom and convince supporters of Team GreenBlue their active deletion of the content that these antis, themselves, once qualified as terrible potential canons, that are now very real -- that the deletion of this is what makes progressive dialogue.

Their nature is contrarian. Contrarian to TPTB Contrarian to canon Contrarian to other fans Contrarian to themselves

TPTB are already ignoring them. Oh my bad, BLOCKING. Some have gone past muting into BLOCKING them. Canon doesn't care

If fans would stop humoring all fuckin 50 of them they'd only have themselves to be contrarian with.

Humoring them also includes internalizing their hilarious dialogues as anything worth two fucking pennies much less anything to contend with or prove or meet their clown bars of

Oh and while I'm thinking about it: As recently as S13, antis were still trying to pretend it was a reasonable opinion that "Cas isn't family, or friend, Dean doesn't care about him at all, much less Sam" In a year and a half they slid to "THEY'RE ONLY BEST FRIENDS NOT LOVERS!"

Seriously. Now take the absurdism of the S13 scenario Turn your scope into the current scenario Realize how every big publication has been addressing this shit And here we are! The new absurdism is, deadass, denying it. And convincing other fans that they somehow need to prove the flagrantly obvious, just like season 13~ with Cas' importance to the family. Just like any other intentionally daft way they suck up air and kilobits while frothing more than a rabid dog.

It's this weird mewling whimper, already settling down all of their values but desperately, hoping in this giant publicly visible homo tornado that the media itself is commenting on, that somehow, they can convince the GA who can't hear them anyway that it ain't gay. But somehow having convinced the rest of the fandom, now, that a stupid ridiculous-ass viewpoint this fandom used to know better than needing or demanding (rather than wanting or desiring, or encouraging) is needed to "prove" something to a GA that... *turns TV back on and files through the channels* ...Thheyyyyyyyyyy seem to be getting it better than shipping fandom right now, actually.

Stop internalizing horse shit and letting it redirect your activism like a damn political bot.

Unless, I don’t know-- unless you decided, with all of this -- since I did say you could decide -- that this remaining absurdity in the fandom is actually any kind of activism rather than trained demolition of your own content.

Grand as their self-contradictory public facade is, what I wouldn’t pay to be a fly on their GC walls to see their nega-clowning panic right now.

You know that goddamn meme republicans pass around where they or Trump just need to say the dumbest shit possible to make “stupid libs” chase the cat laser? THAT IS LITERALLY WHAT THIS FANDOM HAS LET THESE FUCKING IDIOTS DO TO THEM FOR YEARS TO THE POINT Y’ALL HAVE STARTED ARGUING THE OPPOSITE OF WHERE YOU STARTED.

#supernatural #destiel #lgbtqia #representation #fandom

[asagimeta]

Oh boy I just know I'm asking for it as I write this but I feel like as a Bi- especially one who leans towards women- I want to say something about "I Wish You Were Gay" or actually several things:

1. I, too, 100% thought this was Billie's coming out song when I first heard it a few weeks ago on YouTube (apparently her livestream version or something? I didn't realize it was even being released as a single until today) and was dissappointed that it wasn't

2. To all my wlw out there who want to use this as an anthem, I don't see a problem with this, just like I don't see it as a problem to ship Johnlock and Destiel even though those are both just as queerbaiting as this song, wlw anthems are in short supply just like queer ships and there's nothing wrong with liking something that isn't "canonical", HOWEVER, please don't forget that there ARE wlw anthems out there by ACTUAL QUEER GIRLS like Halsey and Hayley Kiyoko and those need plenty of support so if you haven't heard their music, give it a shot!

3. Here's the Tea- IWYWG isn't homophobic in the way that alot of people- particularly straight people- understand homophobia to be, because it isn't malicious and it isn't a slur, Billie certainly isn't saying anything bad about gay people and though I don't know alot about her outside of her music, I don't think she would ever do something that's homophobic for the sake of hurting people, I think she's just ill informed, IWYWG is the same brand of homophobic that Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" is, it isn't malicious, it's dismissive, I've seen people compare it to when men see a girl who isn't interested in them and go "You must be a lesbian" and that's exactly the same tone, not only is it dismissive of someone's personal right to be attracted or not attracted to someone (wich is it's own, and in my opinion potentially larger issue) but it also minimizes queerness in a way that I'm not totally sure I can put into words, I still think IWYWG's larger issue is about not being able to accept someone's personal taste but there's definitely a homophobic curve there- one that lies in ignorance, not malice- that needs to be addressed

4. That said, Billie IS seventeen, this is a song she wrote when she was fourteen, and there has GOT to come a time when we stop punishing children for social missteps the same way we punish adults, I'm not saying that she doesn't need to be CORRECTED- she absolutely does, someone needs to explain to her (in a way better than I can, obviously) why this is An Issue, but she's also still not even old enough to vote so can we stop holding her to the same standards that we hold full grown adults to? And can we maybe focus on TEACHING people instead of PUNISHING them? I swear if I see the word "cancelled" one more time I'm going to break out into hives

5. Wich leads me to a much bigger point- The fact that IWYWG has seen the light of day past her initial livestream and CERTAINLY that it's going to be on her album/released as a single is something we need to be getting pissed at the ADULTS for, "When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?" is being released by Interscope records, wich means there IS an approval process before anything is released, it isn't like she's self-publishing her music, there is an adult out there (likely more than one) who saw this as an opportunity to boost her publicity through some really, really unfortunate means and THAT is who we need to be sending alot of our criticism to, yes Billie wrote it, but the fact that an adult APPROVED of it is where things go from "A seventeen-year-old made a bad choice" to "This is, in fact, malicious", because I will GURANTEE you that the people who decided not only to let it be on the record, but to release it as a single, had the intention of sniping some of the audience that creators like Halsey, Troye Sivan, and others have, because the truth is, Billie is a niche artist, she isn't going to be the next Taylor Swift who's welcome in Every Good Christian Household, she appeals most to a very certain audience.... a large number of who ARE queer, and no doubt the best way the record label saw to handle this was to look at the success people like Halsey and Troye and try to bank in on their audience, queerbaiting exists in TV for a reason and no doubt it's the same idea here, I also wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of "all publicity is good publicity" and they hoped that by getting Billie's name talked about more they would get more people to listen to her and more people to buy her album- if there is malice in this, it's on the adults, not on Billie

My overall opinion is this:

IWYWG was an ignorance-based, cringey mistake made by an outstandingly talented child, made much worse by the adults around her who most definitely know better, there's nothing wrong with liking IWYWG- particularly as a queer woman- just like there's nothing wrong with shipping ships that are clearly queerbaited, there just needs to be an understanding that it IS cringey and why, and similarly, there's nothing wrong with finding the song unlistanable, I can't stand "I Kissed A Girl" because as a bisexual it frustrates me to hear the biggest stereotypes about my sexuality crammed into a song by some straight girl, so trust me, I get it, Billie needs to understand why people are upset and take that seriously, but people also need to be willing to actually teach her things- especially given her age- instead of just screaming "CANCELLED" and clobbering her over the head every single time she steps off the right track

In general, "cancel culture" needs to chill the fuck out, there's definitely a place for it- when people turn out to be monsters like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby- but we can't completely shut down every person who says something mildly offensive or gives their dog the wrong brand of dog food without atleast trying to act like human beings about it and TEACH them first

Let's give Billie an actual full year of being able to see R rated movies without adult supervision before we decide how she's going to act for her entire life ok?

#other #Billie Eilish #I'm still buying WWAFAWDWG

[nickelkeep]

Queer Representation in MtG

So, after my glorious nerdgasm over Kyniaos and Tiro popping up on my dash the other day (you can find that post here), I had someone message me (the awesome @hyperazraphael) and ask me about other queer representation in MtG. As I mentioned, Wizards still has a long way to go, but I went ahead and looked up all the characters that are Queer, believed to be Queer, and in one case, there is a fuckton of Queerbaiting.

As a friendly reminder, the couple who started it all off:

Kynaios and Tiro

(Art by Will Murai)

Goddess, I cannot get enough of these two beautiful men. The lore behind them, the fact that the Story Lore is that their actual History is forgotten, and people thought them enemies when they were lovers. The new art (above) showing the statues below being built? Ugh. So beautiful.

(Art by Magali Villenuvue)

But my previous post was about them, so let’s move on to the next.

Alesha

(Art by Anastasia Ovchinnikova) Alesha, Who Smiles at Death caused such an uproar when she was printed. She is the first official Transgender character in MtG lore. Her story is very simple. Born male, when she earned the right to name herself, she picked Alesha, and it was accepted by the Khan of her tribe, no questions asked. She even rises to power to lead the Mardu tribe. Her story is beautiful and can be read here: The Truth of Names.

Hallar

(Art by Bram Sels)

Sorry, wish I had more lore on this awesome character. Their card is fun to play though.

Ashiok

(Art by Karla Ortiz) Let me tell you about my Homeslice Ashiok. First and foremost, “Every nightmare is a caged bird that yearns to be set free.” Holy shit, you may think me insane, but that line is beautiful. As is this agender/non-binary character. While the art portrays them as somewhat masculine (I’ll forgive it), in lore Ashiok has been described as extremely androgynous. People who were attacked by Ashiok could not determine their gender. They do fall into the trope of the Villainous Queer, at least that seems where WotC is going with them, but I love them so much!

Yahenni, Gonti and the Aetherborn Race

(Yahenni, Art by Lius Lasahido)

(Gonti, Art by Daarken)

This race literally has no gender. Confirmed. Just listing the two heavy hitters for you here.

Oviya

(Art by Magali Villaneuve)

One of the saddest stories of the plane of Kaladesh. Oviya Pashiri was a revered Lifecrafter. She lost her wife, and “stopped working.” And by stopping her work, we mean she started working in secret to overthrow the goddamned Consulate, cause they’re fucking assholes. Seriously. They make the Empire look like saints. Also, boo to killing Lesbians. Bad Wizards. Bad.

Xantcha

(Art by Mark Winters)

Xantcha has been around forever, first appearing as a Vanguard. She’s Phyrexian, which means at birth, she is born genderless. She’s also unlike other Phyrexians in which she can think against the hivemindish thing they have. Some people think that she should get the title as the first Transgender character, as she went from having no gender to being female, but I will leave that up to the masses.

Lazav (and - fight me - other Shapeshifters)

(Art by David Rapoza)

Meet this regal looking badass. They’re the Guild Master of House Dimir. And Non-Binary. Lazav has pretty much been confirmed as such, so I’m also going to go out on a limb and say that all Shapeshifters are Enbies. They can take on the form of any person, regardless of gender, race, sexuality... Fight me.

Hal and Alena

This is an MtG example in which I don’t have an art or a card, but a story.  Under the Silver Moon

While it’s not 100% confirmed, it’s along the lines of Destiel. Read between the damn lines.

Warning on the next one. This is the one that I read as Queerbaiting. 

Chandra and Nissa

(Card: Deadlock Trap, Art: Jason Rainville)

As a reminder, Queerbaiting is the practice of hinting at, but then not actually depicting, a same-sex romantic relationship between characters in a work of fiction, mainly in film or television. The potential romance may be ignored, explicitly rejected or made fun of. Really, I don’t want to get into this one. This one is not Canon. I honestly don’t even think there is enough support. If you read stories starting in the Kaladesh storyline, they imply that Chandra has unexplained feelings and attraction or something growing between these two ladies. But it’s never confirmed. And Nissa, who has been Miss “I hate every other race that isn’t elves” is starting to see Chandra as someone she can talk to, but maybe something more too if you squint and cross your eyes. 

Look, I’m cool if you ship these two. And if WotC does actually put them in a relationship together, awesome, there’s more LGBT visibility. But we don’t know if they’re Lesbians or bi or pan or demi or whatever. Their sexualities have never even been discussed. But we get fed this:

Chandra shifted awkwardly. "So . . . friendship?"

Nissa blinked. Chandra worked very hard not to stare.

"Yes," Nissa smiled.

Nissa closed her eyes, and took another deep breath, her headache receding. It felt good to confess insecurities. She smiled and looked Chandra in the eye.

"I am thankful for your companionship. You have taught me much about what it means to be a friend, Chandra. It means much to me."

"Right. Yeah." A soft smile returned to Chandra's face. "I want to be a good friend to you." 

(From The Writing on the Wall by Alison Luhr)

That’s from an official MtG Story. How do you read that? Serious question. Do you need more context? Nissa asked Chandra and only Chandra to go on a walk through Naktamun with her. And Chandra is having the weird fluffy feelings again. Now how does that read? Any different? 

Again, if WotC wants them to go Canon, awesome. Let’s hope they both survive War of Spark.

#not spn #i did make a tiny spn reference though #MtG #mtgcommunity #mtgjudge #mtg art #mtg lore #mtg lgbt #lgbt #lgbt+ #lgbtq #lgbtpeople #lgbtpride #wotc #wizards of the coast #Magic the Gathering #we still need more representation #more diversity please

[jensenscomedyelbows]

SUPERNATUAL 21 QUESTIONS

(THE INCREDIBLE HEATHER, AKA @sammichgirl, did this and tagged me as one of her favorite blogs, so I’m giving it a go. Thanks, doll.)

1. When did you start watching Supernatural? 

On September 19, 2012. I was recovering from surgery and had binged all there was to binge on Netflix at that point, and I asked my BFF James what I should watch. He immediately said “Supernatural!” I was skeptical, and I asked him exactly what it was about. He told me brothers, Sam and Dean, who were “slayers,” probably because he knew I loved BtVS and that would interest me. I thought hmmm, maybe. That same day my other BFF, Angel, called to check on me, so I asked her if she had any recommendations—and she said the same thing! She, like James, had watched every episode live since day one. So I watched the pilot, and was immediately struck by the twin images of Mary and Jessica burning on the ceiling. I HAD TO KNOW WHY. Three weeks later, I finished season 6, just in time for Netflix to add season 7, and not long after I finished that, season 8 began airing live, with me right in front of my TV every Tuesday night, dying to see what would happen next. AND I’M STILL HERE (and have been to THREE conventions, lord have mercy!)

2. Who is your favorite in TFW?

Like Heather, I never really thought that was a thing. It was a line put in for a laugh in one episode that got blown up into a big deal, but I never felt invested in the concept. But if you’re asking me which character is my favorite among Sam, Dean, and Castiel, my favorite will always be Dean. You can’t love him without loving Sam too, however, and there are episodes in which my sympathies are more with Sam, and episodes in which I identify/sympathize more with Dean. I rarely sympathize with Castiel because he’s not human.

3. Who is your least favorite in TFW?

Castiel. I haven’t much liked his character since season 5, but I do recognize that’s entirely the writers’ fault.

4. Tag your top 5 Supernatural blogs.

The ones I turn to again and again for gifs (and which have been particularly useful in illustrating my 2019 rewatch) have been: @sensitivehandsomeactionman @secretsandgreeneyes @saucynewf @demondetoxmanual and @spn-idjits-guide-to-hunting. I also love @lipglosskaz @sammichgirl @lemondropsonice @whiskeycherrypie and @misswhizzy. I am a thousand percent sure I’m leaving out at least fifty I love and adore 🥰, and it will drive me nuts thinking about it!

5. Who is your favorite character (not including TFW)?

Bobby Singer, no contest, hands down.

6. Who is your favorite woman in Supernatural?

Ellen Harvelle. A calm, steadying presence with the knowledge and skill to back up her formidable courage. Tough when she needed to be, loving when the people she cared about were in trouble. Heroic.

7. John or Mary?

Neither or both. If you erase the Dabb era resurrection of Mary, then both. Both John and Mary had profound impacts on Sam and Dean’s personalities and views of the world—John’s by his presence and Mary’s by her absence. They made our boys who they are. But if you count Mary’s resurrection and terrible new character arc, then John of course.

8. What were your first opinions of Sam, Dean, Cas, and Jack?

I thought it was commendable for Sam to want to go to law school, and tragic what happened to Jessica and his plans for the future. I loved how open he was with Dean (early days!), how much trust he had in him, and how easily victims responded to him. Also: book smarts are a turn-on of mine.

I fell in love with Dean’s beauty by Wendigo, and his everything else by Home. The brave face, the stiff upper lip hiding the vulnerability and insecurity from his little brother because he feels he has to be strong for him—all that just made me love him more. Also: a wicked sense of humor is a huge turn-on of mine.

Castiel has a great character entrance. Emotionless. He burned out Pamela’s eyes. I thought that was unnecessary. He and Uriel were alien beings whose motives were the opposite of pure, so I feared his power and questioned his interaction with Sam and Dean.

Jack: Oh, I get it—the CW needs to compete with Riverdale and its other shows featuring teenagers, so they invented Lucifer’s son to boost ratings. *shrug*

9. What’s your favorite season?

2, 4, and 5–there are just too many good ones to have just one favorite. I also love 1 and 3. LOL.

10. What’s your least favorite season?

Season 12 just about broke me. Let me count the ways: Lucifer possessing the President of the United States (oh please, I watch this show to ESCAPE real life, tyvm), Sam and Dean MURDERING him in yet another failed attempt to kill Lucifer, being sent to “Supermax” which, again, PLEASE, do you even know what would happen to the assassins responsible for killing the POTUS? Not even Sam and Dean would be able to bust out of that lockup—no effing way—yet they did. And how did they do it? By murdering a shitload of HUMAN BEINGS just doing their jobs, running around with AK-47s while yelling how they’re the guys who saved the world 🙄 I can’t see either Sam or Dean EVER bragging about that, and since then, they have, many times, and it always sets my teeth on edge. SEASON TWELVE DOESN’T EXIST TO ME.

11. What’s your opinion on Destiel?

It’s a fan ship that is popular among the younger, less experienced viewers of our show (many of whom haven’t even seen any seasons/episodes without Castiel in them), so my opinion isn’t very high. It’s like Dean and Cas are two dolls, and the Destiel fandom’s chief delight is mashing them together any way they can. And forcing the rest of us to hear them lecture us on how it’s “real,” how it’s “going to be canon,” and generally alienating everyone who doesn’t ship those two characters. I ignore anything to do with it.

12. Do you believe Supernatural queerbaits?

I’m not queer, so bearing in mind that I wouldn’t necessarily see it if it did, I’ve tried to look at it as impartially and dispassionately as possible, and I believe that Misha has been guilty of it, on occasion. (Sure, it’s all in good fun, he’s only kidding, he’s having a laugh, etc.) Ben Edlund has as well. Robbie Thompson was perhaps guilty of it a time or two. But this is all supposing that it is impossible for A TRUE PLATONIC LOVING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TWO MEN to be portrayed on television. I mean, Dean/Castiel is the only “baiting” I’ve ever heard people yell about, so I’m sticking to this one possible pairing as the one responsible for this question. I personally have no trouble accepting a platonic same-sex relationship...but queer fandom seems to have a lot of trouble with this concept?

13. Seasons 1-7 or 8-14?

Hahahaha, obviously 1-7. KEEP 12 AWAY FROM ME.

14. Who’s your favorite villain?

CROWLEY. He was so awful before his redemptive stuff at the end. Never forget that as of the end of season 8, he was murdering all the innocent people Sam and Dean had saved (including Sarah Blake!), then in season 9, he was the one responsible for getting Gadreel out of Sam. After that, he wasn’t really a villain anymore. But he was so irredeemably evil for four seasons!

15. Do you think they should end the Lucifer plot line?

THEY HAVE!  Now they just need to end the NICK plot line.

16. Who do you think has been through more trauma—Sam, Dean or Cas?

Sam and Dean have been through the SAME traumas, almost exactly, so I call theirs dead even. I wouldn’t want to measure or quantify “trauma” in any case. Castiel isn’t human, so I never thought of him as undergoing any trauma.

17. What’s your favorite Supernatural episode?

Mystery Spot, 3x11. It’s the one I would show someone new to the show. It’s the one I watch when I’m down. I LOVE stories with the time-loop trope ❤️ The acting is phenomenal. It’s funny, it’s tragic, it’s everything.

18. Do you like the case episodes?

All of season 1 is comprised of “case” episodes. Looking for John and Sam’s connection to “the demon” are secondary in that season, and I loved it enough to fall in love with the entire series, so YES. I’m a horror/mystery buff at heart.

19. Who do you relate most to in TFW?

It will come as no surprise to anyone reading this that my answer is Dean.

20. Why do you like Supernatural?

Honestly, it’s the only place I can see the Winchesters do their thing—make their choices, fight their battles, and live their lives. They DO lead eventful lives!

21. If you could bring back one character and kill another off, who would they be?

I’m gonna interpret “bring back” as “never killed off” and go with Bobby—the Bobby we knew and loved, the Bobby who had the boys’ backs and was always there, dispensing wisdom and advice. “Bring back” means an entirely different thing now that there’s an AU—they can (and have) brought back EVERYBODY in an effort to appease fans and boost ratings. I think it’s a failure of imagination, personally, and I’ll give that version of bringing back a hard pass.

I would definitely kill Castiel off, or send him to Heaven for good. And then I don’t want to hear another word about Heaven or Hell again, the end. He hasn’t done anything but give pep talks and occasionally perform a miraculous task when the writers need him to. His character has already been killed, and it was a slow death by a thousand cuts. Very sad.

OKAY. I’m not tagging anybody either, but here’s your chance to get your opinions out there and on the record, so do it! (if you do it, please tag me!)

#supernatural opinions #degree of difficulty: expert #sammichgirl

[tinkdw]

1) You know, I really do want to believe-and i sometimes do, because you're right. Everything of this show, subtextual AND textual, point towards endgame. I can SEE that. I UNDERSTAND. The show will be completely inconsistent and frankly bullshit if it isn't endgame/canon. But then I think of other fandoms that I have been in that went through the same shit. Thousands of people believing, working together with meta, screaming over episodes because it's all so BLATANT. -->

--> 2)Cast and crew playing along, liking/retweeting tweets that reference ship stuff and specific queer readings, being inconsistent with answers to questions regarding ships going canon. The relationship being so different, not like other 'kinky' ships, in fact to the point that it is the ONLY ship that has the slightest chance of going canon. The show establishing that the characters need a romantic relationship in order to finish their development. -->

--> 3) The show being full of mirrors, callbacks, symbolism. It being so well crafted and AMAZING when you read it the way we do. Everyone rejocing because it makes so much sense, we're actually getting representation, this is increadible..... and then it turns out to be a pile of shit. The show ends, and it is not endgame, they never get together, no confirmation, still just friends, just a load of queerbait. The show wasn't going for it- it was just bad. -->

--> 4) Because it IS a bad show when you take away the romantic reading. All those mirrors, intricate plot points, symbolism, double meanings for nothing. The writers have no master plan, they are just writing what they think will raise ratings. And we are furious, yes, because it makes no sense whatsoever, but turns out- nobody cares. The GA is satisfied. I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS AND IT TERRIFIES ME. because I don't want to set myself up for disappointment, not again. -->(the next is last srry)

--> 5)I actually think of unfollowing you a lot because you are so right and you, along with other brilliant meta writers, are so insightful. I can tangibly feel endgame coming after reading your posts, and then I go, wait, but it won't happen. It won't happen even thought it's RIGHT and it SHOULD and it MAKES SENSE because they don't care. It was just us falling for it. Just us reading into it. So I feel terrible after reading destiel endgame meta, because I know better than to get my hopes up.

Hi nonny, I felt compelled to answer this.

If it is not good for your mental wellbeing and you are finding it too stressful to follow me and people who blog like me then please do unfollow! I do not want to be responsible for you being stressed or worried.

Personally I like to live in the realistic and logical view of things. I am a very logical person. My opinion, personally, is that given the situation we are in I am currently (I wasn’t pre season 12 for example but am now) like, what, 95% sure (?) we are getting canon Destiel. This is my PERSONAL opinion and I do not state that I have any knowledge that any other tumblr fan has, I am not saying YOU should be this sure, it just is MY opinion.

Therefore personally I refuse to live in the 5% negative worry percentage, which I would say would be ambiguous, there’s 0% chance for me that it’ll end on brothers/friends only. I like to live in the 95% positive percentage. I also personally never thought some of the ships that Destiel gets compared to were ever going to be canon so I haven’t been let down before. I’ve never personally felt so strongly that it was pretty inevitably canon as for Destiel.

However if my posts are stressful for you, please do unfollow. I will not begrudge you!

I actually spoke to @bluestar86 and @amwritingmeta about this this morning, that now that it’s getting more and more like it’s ridiculous to think that they won’t go there it IS actually sometimes more stressful for me too, as my hopes are higher due to canon, the STAKES are higher you know?

So you’re not alone, I do understand what you are saying. Personally I like to live in the 95% likelihood probability that I myself perceive.

I’m a positive person and I enjoy the great things we are getting. If this is stressful though please look after yourself first!

#positivity #negativity #destiel #self care first #Anonymous

[archivingspn]

2019: Tumblr Jess and Twitter Isis

Context: On February 21, 2019 fangirlingjess (persephoneshadow or ibelieveinthelittletreetopper) answered this anon on Tumblr:

“Anonymous Asks: ‘if they don’t want us to see dean/cas as a romantic couple why do they always make dean the one that worries about cas? why do they make cas always call dean? why do they put such an emphasis on how different dean/cas is in relation to sam/cas?? and why is my dumb ass gonna keep watching when i know nothing will happen? the things people will do for views and money is disgusting. there’s no reason not to make it canon. they just want to pander to everyone n make as much money as possible.’

persephoneshadow Said:

that’s the thing, the writers don’t “want” us to see anything. They may have specific ideas and intentions but I know they don’t assume what the audience will think. I’d say that in all the examples you listed what they INTENDED was 9 times out of 10, not romantic, but just to show that these guys love each other deeply and leave it to the audience to define that love.

I’ll share with you a story I’ve been hesitant to tell, but this happened in public and the other fan involved has spun it a very different way.

At Wayward Cocktails at SDCC last year, Davy Perez stopped by.  There was a fan in attendance who had a bunch of “Destiel exists” paraphernalia including literal Fans with Dean and Cas in tombstone with a rainbow. I can’t remember if it said “destiel” but it might have.

The fan (person) gave the destiel fan (object) TO DAVY. He laughed, thought it was hysterical and joked to the folks around “what a beautiful friendship fan!” And he repeated that it was, to him, a great friendship episode, though he was also amused and not surprised at how destiel shippers took it.

Tombstone was not romantic to him, the writer.

The vast majority of destiel subtext and text that fans have relied on for the last few, jeez, years, is not explicitly romantic. It’s variable depending on the viewer. And that’s old fashioned,but SPN is a relic, so really it’s fine.

There are things in the text of the show that can be read however anyone likes, the writers have been explicit and implicit about that over and over. But they are also smart, savvy people who if they wanted to be telling a queer love story outright….would just do it. There’s nothing stopping that.

I think at this point if Dean and Cas were made explicitly canon it would be too late. They should have done it years ago, if they were going to and They haven’t.

Unfortunately, “you have your story, we have ours” is pretty much the final word on Destiel for now and…I don’t think we’ll ever get anything unambiguously romantic.” - Feb 21, 2019 3:51 pm

[source]

The next day theyjustdontgetitdothey took a screenshot of the post above and made a post that gave more context on what Jess was talking about:

[two screenshot images containing Jess’s post] “In other words, MonarchMish aka Isis, the fan who gave Davy Perez the destiel things at SDCC, flat out lied her ass off. She told everyone that he wanted the ship to be canon and she knew that for a fact because he secretly told her so. Ever since then, she and her friends have been using this lie to convince everyone that the ship is most definitely going canon. In reality he laughed and called her destiel fan a “friendship fan”. She got away with her lies for a long time until Jess busted her. You all remember Jess, right? She’s the “writer” who baited her fellow shippers into believing that Eugenie said there was a big destiel moment in episode 14x12. The one that made them all freak out and scream about queerbaiting when it failed to materialize. Funny how ever since that moment, she’s been a big champion of honesty, constantly reminding her followers that canon destiel will never happen. Almost like she got warned by tptb after she made that huge mess.

Here’s the big problem with this kind of shit: when you lie about it, you’re only hurting people who ship what you do. They buy into your bullshit and start expecting it to be canon. Then what happens when it never comes to pass? I’ll tell you what- they explode at the show, the network, the actors, everyone except who they should blame: other shippers who baited and lied to them. This isn’t on the CW. It’s not on Supernatural or the writers. It’s sure as shit not on Jared and Jensen. It’s on people like Jess (until her recent change of heart) and Isis and Goober and Dot who keep swearing that this time it’s really gonna happen for real swear to god this time is different. They tell their lies to young, easily fooled fans and convince them it’s possible and then break their hearts every single time. It’s irresponsible and it’s stupid. “ - February 22, 2019

[source]

Unfortunately, Isis has locked their main account and since deleted some of their 2018 post claims, but others have taken old screenshots of some of their tweets before they were taken down and we found a few of their tweets on their back up account as well:

Context: After the airing of season 14 episode 4, “Mint Condition,” certain factions got upset over Dean suggesting Sam and Dean having matching outfits for Halloween the next year. Isis ( MonarchMisha = WangxianBond = Isis =ShizunThirst) rushed to assure their fellow fans that Perez, the writer of 14x04, was on Destiel’s side and shading wincest shippers when writing Dean saying “That’s weird.”  in regards to dressing as Bert and Ernie.

MonarchMish: “For those worried about tonight’s episode - I can GUARANTEE you one thing: Davy Perez supports us. I won’t get into specifics on why i’m saying that or how I know, but that scene was ABSOLUTELY a shade on wincest.” - 9:34 PM 11/1/18

[Isis has deleted this tweet so no direct source is available]

withheartofgold: “Hmm you have met the guy and talked to him and all so I guess it’s true though I don’t like how they ended the episode https://twitter.com/ShizunThirst/s” - Nov 1, 2018

ShizunThirst: “Not a fan of it myself but i'm taking it as a dark humor joke”- Nov 1, 2018

withheartofgold: “Yeah I’m hoping it’s just that” - 10:25 PM Nov 1, 2018

[source]

MonarchMish: I promise its something good and happy but I can’t say anything. Its not a spoiler but its something that left me knowing i’m not imagining anything and that what we see is real. ‘MonarchMish: Me wanting to say something that happened at sdcc that would have destiel fans screaming and spontaneously combusting but not able to’“

[Isis has deleted this tweet so no direct source is available]

gallaghcr: “putting blind faith in isis is once again the only thing that will keep me going twitter.com/WangxianBond/s...” - Nov 1, 2018

WangxianBond: “Keep in mind i'm not saying destiel will be canon(I have wild hope though) or anything just that I know D Perez supports us through and through.” - 10:02 PM Nov 1, 2018

[source]

This Tweet was deleted by the Tweet author. Learn more

WangxianBond: “Muting this tweet but just gonna say that ever since sdcc this year,   nobody can or will change my mind on the thought that davy supports us.” - 10:19 PM Nov 1,2018

[source]

Skip to 2019, the day after Jess called Isis out, Isis responded with:

WangxianBond: “ANYWAY, I stick to what I said about sdcc last year and there's two people on twitter that can verify I had a PRIVATE conversation with the writer in question at the end of the event last year. He asked me not to publicize the details of what he said to me which I never did :)” - 4:19 PM Feb 22, 2019

[source]

#2019-Feb #2019:February21-22 #*destiel #*spn 13x06 #*spn 14x04 #Jess vs Isis #Tumblr #Twitter #SDCC2018

[elizabethrobertajones]

I think Destiel is the show's end game but they want it to be the very last thing. So they set up the story around season 8/9 because they didn't really know if they were gonna get picked up and they had to dial it back up when it continued. Now it started again during season 12 knowing the show is gonna end in the next couple of years for sure without it being cancelled. Maybe? Thoughts? Love your meta!

Hi! Love you too!

I weirdly had a conversation about this yesterday in private so I’ve managed to actually coalesce some thoughts about this… Lots of thoughts.

Seeing as I joined fandom in the end of season 9, I basically joined a fandom that had been pretty hurt by the spec that season 8 might have been endgame if the show was cancelled… Obviously we’re never going to get any sort of statement on it until after we know the definitive line on whatever else they were doing with Destiel after the point it matters, so it’s going to be small potatoes if it was or not. 

But I don’t particularly think that it actually WAS - and the different way Cas, and his and Dean’s relationship, was portrayed in season 8 immediately threw a whole bunch of fuel on the fire but it was shocking in a way that it was being given attention rather than specifically being romantic, and it’s hard to tell the two apart, especially when you’re looking in the subtext and seeing romantic stuff, which when you’re a starving shipper suddenly seems like a feast of both charged interaction AND the old subtext, which is suddenly slathered all over everything when Cas is a major part of Dean’s emotional arc for the first time (in a good way). 

(LOTS more under the cut)

Whether there was an intent or not, season 8 changed the game and without knowing what they were doing or where it would lead (aka hello I am Hindsight from the future) it would look pretty shocking and suggestive that something might come of it. Because I know I’d flip out in the same scenario just from wondering, and kind of feel like I’m in the same place after season 12, because again it feels like the game changed.

I’m trying hard not to leap to conclusions to be honest, and I do *not* want to be in the middle of it which is partially why I’ve reacted so strongly to twice in the last month people using me as some sort of fandom leader whose words mean more than others’, because I really really hope not and I wish I didn’t have to disclaimer it because it makes my ego look enormous but on the other hand twice in a month is a pretty frightening wake up call about how people see me?

So. 

Even if it was written with intent in season 8, we’re so far past the point that if that was their plan they could have delayed it over and over without doing something substantial *in Carver era* about it, that it twists the fandom narrative about this into the show being very cruel. This narrative is a great one for people who feel wanky, to feel like they’ve got justified reasons to be upset that it didn’t happen and that they’re getting strung along. I’m not saying everyone who thinks that Destiel was slated to go canon in season 8 does, but it is a great narrative for those who do to feel somewhat certain the show is deliberately dangling and then holding back on Destiel, because nothing bonds a community like feeling as if some more important group of people is mistreating them. Justified rage and all that. If you don’t like the show because you feel it got kinda shitty over the last few years but instead need to take it as a personal betrayal in order to break up with the show, it’s a great thing to get riled up about. The bait and switch seems clear to them, and there’s been many discussions of the way they seem to build up only to yank away, in every season since 8. And part of the build up is meta writers freaking out about how canon it all looks and being naturally excited to see what happens with the story they’ve been reading positively (and this isn’t our fault, though some people think we’re complicit in queerbaiting just by wanting to analyse the show and give any credit to teasing the ship by pointing out its structural integrity).

Some people who see the idea it was going to be canon in season 8 positively also tell this as a way of making themselves feel good that it has been on the books and therefore has a chance of going canon in the future. 

You can get the same story of the show’s intent in two different places, but the ONLY way we can ever construct this narrative is by reading into the show and trying to guess at what they’re doing because they’ve never admitted to writing a Destiel narrative. 

A side effect of the 9x03 wank was a bemused message from someone waaaay up the chain and out of the writers’ room, who said they’d never been pitched the story. I’m inclined to believe that, because I don’t believe in any conspiracy except for the NHI (shh don’t ask if you don’t remember :P), meaning that at no point in season 8 was it EVER anything more than subtextual fun from the writers among themselves. And nothing that was on the books at least in the first half of season 9. Like, at the most generous thought that it might be later if you REALLY want to go hard on theorising about what they’re up to, it wasn’t at that point. 

(The NHI sprang from 10x10 so I’m covered there.)

(Also if you see people handwave 9x03′s wank as a conspiracy to cover it up and that it HAD been real but NDAs mean they’d say it wasn’t, don’t use a pinch of salt, put a whole salt circle around that thought and run away.)

Another thing about this sort of expectation or narrative is that I feel the recent meta writers wank has made it really obvious there’s still people in fandom hanging on for fanon content and character stanning who really don’t need more canon to unfurl, ever, and are only going to get more angry about it, and were hurt at some point in one of these mass-wanks about the show, probably one of these early positivity bubble bursts, but who nevertheless feel like meta still has some sort of mystical power or social influence or… something or other… that from how it sounds, seems like they were once all in on the “it should be canon at the end of season 8″ hype or equivalent for their season, and of course were shattered when it didn’t happen. 

And if season 8 didn’t finish them off, later things did - season 9 was a horrific obstacle course even just with 9x03′s wank and then JIB at the end of the year and the “we don’t play it that way” comment. Which I am contractually obliged to repeat every time I quote Jensen to give context of “as in a secret relationship where they’ve been fucking off screen as per whatever dirty fanart he was shown to get the concept of what he thought Destiel was”

I am fairly certain that season 8 hype was partially manufactured (a Known Fandom Cultist was in the mix and the heady combination of a new big fandom flooding tumblr from Netflix and all the season 8 subtext AND the chance for attention and followers is a wonderful mix for exploitation when the fandom hasn’t been hurt before from this particular direction), and definitely this hype was used to whip the fandom up into a frenzy of expectation that a lot of people either innocently repeated or expanded on in their own meta because the idea sounded interesting or halfway plausible based on their theories (as it was a positive growth of Destiel subtext and narrative ANYWAY) or they thought we deserved the best world of the show, or else they weren’t meta writers and just read it and bought into it and allowed this narrative to have *incredible* power over them by putting all their thoughts into someone else’s basket, and sharing the ideas and being excited in gifsets and fic and other fandom contributions for how the show had become a romance overnight.

(Spoilers: it hadn’t.) 

I don’t like theories which use abstract examples to hold up to the show like basic plot structures, character arc templates, etc, pretty much exactly for this reason, because you can ONLY apply those as analysis backwards on finished arcs without immediately being wrong about something, and that’s a generous thought for if you’re not trying to whip up a frenzy of enthusiasm for fake emotional currency of Tumblr followers :P Essentially I have no problem with meta written about this sort of thing so long as it isn’t “they ARE using this trope so this HAS TO MEAN that this WILL happen,” or “they ARE employing such and such narrative structure and that means they WILL do this next step exactly as it says here” 

… I could crack open my copy of The Seven Basic Plots right, now, pick one at random, apply it to the season 13 spoilers with dead certainty that it all adds up to Destiel and cash in my entire reputation on a 1/7 chance of being utterly right that the structure will look like it’s going that way to the letter, and hope I’d only lose a third of my new followers in the resulting storm when I’m not right about the pay off :P 

If you just think it’s interesting and might be USEFUL to try and UNDERSTAND what will happen next, then by all means as long as you’re not using it and hoping that it sounds academic will mean people without a good grounding in rationalising these things for themselves will just assume you’re smart and know what you’re talking about. And then you use it to push home ideas which you can’t possibly know like that Destiel is being built up to go canon at the end of the season/endgame or whatever, some people will go right along with it because it’s tantalising.

Whatever happened, though, I have heard more than enough since joining fandom about the end of season 8 wank and people quitting the fandom and basically the first positivity bubble shattering (over an episode I feel does no harm and considerable good to the ship without making it canon), so that even before season 9 the wank and bitterness about many things such as the disproportionate freak out about Tracey Bell being a love interest or rumours spread that April or Nora would be multi-episode love interests for Cas, had everyone behaving like the way fandom does before every season or character announcement now. Which is to get disproportionately upset about things which have not yet happened, because they’re already feeling *so hurt* by the things which have, for not living up to the expectations, that surely everything is IT, the END, the thing that will kill Destiel out of the show forever. Every female character is a threat and everyone’s always certain the show is out to damage the thing they love just out of spite.

(I know some people will pop up like, it’s not about the ship, it’s about Cas! but I really can not help feeling that it’s just a sliding of feelings from the ship, because of feeling Dean was horrible to Cas over season 9 and 10 for example, to being over-protective of Cas in particular, and, like, I get it. I do. I don’t feel it that way because I never got invested in any particular pay off that I then didn’t feel happened, and that by whatever point, Cas should be living with them or getting his own episodes on the regular or that Dean should have apologised for whatever, or that they should now be dating. I have a personal investment in this tailored to look for positive things and see good changes like Cas getting more episodes ABOUT him, a strong place in the narrative, a in-depth personal arc, and love from the cast and show. For others, almost nothing will go far enough towards what they want, so even these huge positive changes from what I experienced in season 10 as a Cas fan will get over the hurdle.)

I also think there’s a serious secondary problem that for some people the promise of “it’s going canon at the end of season 8″ turned into “well of course it got renewed so it’ll be whenever the show ends INSTEAD” but carried on essentially giving the same super positive message that Destiel was absolutely 100% on the mind of all the writers all the time as the overall conclusion of the character arc. Which is something you can almost never tell when people write about it and I think again is more like an idea that moved into general conversation so I don’t think there’s really anyone out there I encounter who is angling for anything. But it can be misleading about the concept that just because meta writers find a consistent narrative and are optimistic it will continue and be honoured through the show, that we’re saying that there’s a guaranteed endgame and everyone ought to hang onto it. 

Honestly if you can’t hack the wait, I’d much rather people went full-fanon, didn’t cast opinions on the show at all, put away the negativity in favour of enjoying the stuff they like - fics, art, canon-free headcanons, etc, and when the end of the show came, if they even halfway liked the sound of what people were saying about it, went and re-watched from the start to re-immerse themselves and try a positive take on it knowing what they were in for, canon or not. I’ve stopped watching several times out of DGAF feelings towards the show (weird dog episodes :|) and come back and again I can’t really claim to have the most healthy attitude, everyone follow my lead, but I do think I can be objective and careful about how I engage with it and try and not get sucked into negativity OR positivity rollercoasters that only go to hurt town. >.> 

I mean, I honestly feel in season 12, it’s the first time we’ve had an entire writers’ room of writers I even think *know* about it as a solid narrative construct (and yes I am including Buckleming because they DO write Destiel into the show, they just also write all the racism and rape and whatever else in along with it :P) Between the scattered application of serious subtext through Carver era and the approach to canon they occasionally winked at, they never seemed particularly competent at the work needed to actually make Destiel canon if it was EVER supposed to be building up towards it. I think the bait and switch yank away is too clever for them and their handling of the narrative :P I don’t think they’re stupid but, NHI aside, they are not up for complicated conspiracies.

To be serious, though… I know people say they saw it all the time from space, and their casual viewer mom did etc, but the fact remains they never wrote a CLEAR romance narrative except for the splitting Dean and Cas at the start of season 10 and *paralleling* their narratives with Crowley and Hannah, while everything else has been situational tropes or strong emotional narratives which could work either way. A slow burn romance in a show that will admit it’s one will use many similar tropes but also ones which expressly make it a romance that everyone’s supposed to read as happening, usually quite corny, on the nose ones, and Destiel has more of the subtextual or emotionally bonding romantic tropes than like… anything else ever… but very few of the “oops walked in on him changing, let me just accidentally turn around again on the way out the door” type nonsense that broadcasts to people on Mars that they’re going to bang, and probably soon. I say very few because there’s little outliers like the boner scene or “i can’t let you do this” which are copy pasted from corny romance, but of ALL the Destiel that happened in season 12, ONLY the mixtape crosses boundaries like that and even so people CAN argue it’s platonic love, and the only thing we can really say is nonsense is that it’s not conveying any love at all. 

Something like Crowley mourning his romance with demon!Dean and looking at photos to some sort of “all by myself” level song was very clearly a rom com trope and the one that for me sealed the deal that Drowley was intentionally meant to be seen in canon. Something like Dean and Aaron is disproportionately powerful because their main interpersonal interaction was literally described as being something from a rom com BY the director’s commentary :P Destiel is a 10 year old behemoth, largely NOT defined by rom com tropes, but with a few peppered here and there in a low enough concentration that it’s not the absolute norm to assume it’s going to happen.

But in season 12, like in season 8, Cas got a LOT of attention in the story, a good chunk of that was through Dean because Dean’s got the old profound bond, and Cas and Dean are intrinsically and inseparably connected in some ways that no amount of bro-ing up with Sam or forging a tentative friendship with Mary will do to NOT make it seem like Cas is talking to Dean first and foremost, especially when all 3 Winchesters pile through the door and Cas just says “Dean” :P 

This season has a STRONG narrative about Cas’s relationship to the Winchesters and through Dean in particular, and there’s one of the stand out romantic tropes in basically ever in this season, along with several other hallmarks of the things that made season 8 such fertile ground. 

12x10 had the crypt scene rehash to hopefully end these loops around Dean and Cas with the positive conclusion it needed, and a lot of the meta about season 8 flipped out about the human/supernatural relationships (with Charlie and Gilda foreshadowing the crypt scene perfectly, because Robbie) so 12x10 filled in a missing link from season 8, of a story about how angels might be into humans too. 

And it was the season with Aaron which was Dean’s personal stand out bi moment which made a lot of people feel the show was going to start taking it seriously on his behalf, and season 12 had Aaron back, even if it was only one scene, it was a reminder he existed and the main interesting context for most people was him and Dean. 

And season 8 had the angel fall spell, including the cupid nonsense in 8x23, and the nephilim which was the early forerunner of the suggestion of 12x10, that angels and humans can couple up, while in season 12 the angel fall spell was directly mentioned, 12x15 mirrored the first Hell trial, nephilim were back, and Crowley offered to close the gates of Hell. So season 8′s mytharc was slathered all over the season. 

And in the crypt scene Dean was supposed to say “I love you” and in 12x12 they found a way to make Cas say it instead, which I agree was the more logical progression, that Cas would crack first :P 

Anyway, season 8 was all over this season but season 12 felt amped up and going places season 8 didn’t, going several steps further and as I’ve said before to go straight from season 8 meta mindset to season 12, would utterly blow your mind. 

BUT to go right back to the start, I don’t think season 8 was building to canon Destiel ever, not even as a failsafe for cancelleation. I don’t think that the planned “I love you” was going to do more than make the fight about canon that much more bloody if it aired and doesn’t help even without it airing, knowing it was going to happen. Jensen was the one who argued it away, and they agreed for character reasons supposedly, so there was no meddling from above to say, wait, hit the brakes, we can’t barrel right into the canon build up.

I think season 8 was supposed to be used to bring Cas back in from the cold - kind of literally with using Purgatory to stagger his return - because after season 6 & 7 showing Dean cared about him in ANY way was important, and to establish that whatever Cas had done, Dean would forgive and want to rescue him and have him back in the family. I don’t think season 8 is a clean slate for Cas despite his attempt to put on the old uniform and carve a new path for himself in like… 2 episodes after he got back while he was still being fucked around with by Heaven unknowingly to him. He’s still burdened with guilt, and if anything, the season renewal is probably more to blame for stretching out Dean forgiving him than smooching him, with a lil more manufactured drama and Dean lashing out at him for season 6 & 7 in 8x22. He lashes out again in 9x22, but by season 10 he’s pretty much moved on, to be angry about like… everything else to push Cas away at the end of the season. I guess they’re living in the moment rather than the past by 10x22 :P Pfft. Sorry, got to be facetious about some things here.

I think the focus on Cas in season 8 was much more about his repentance and forgiveness from others - Metatron snags him by seeing he still wants to repent for Heaven, WHILE he’s in the gas station trying to buy stuff to repent to Dean for OTHER stuff. I think it makes perfect sense to read the season 8 narrative as a strong emotional narrative between Dean and Cas specifically engineered to delve into their relationship issues, let Cas back in to TFW, let him back into Dean’s heart, and try and establish for US what Cas is truly like as we’ve never been so deep in his head as in season 8 as a whole, except for in 6x20 where we learned A: he loved them and Dean in particular, and B: he was busy lying and betraying them and justifying it all on the slimmest reasons to keep himself going. If you love Cas, 6x20 is a goldmine. If you’re indifferent or don’t like him, as a one episode event, it might not warm your heart especially with the end of season 6 and his resulting failures, especially perceived moral ones against his friends. 

Season 8 let us right into Cas and showed us his inner processes, desires, and a narrative about how he wanted to do penance for season 6 and 7, and a feeling that Sam and Dean love him back, of course, but to them Cas is still a shaky person to depend on and Dean is going a great deal on faith that Cas is good even while thinking he’s sketchy and lying the entire time between 8x07 and 8x17, showing a conflict between Dean’s baseline faith in Cas and Cas’s behaviour towards them. Being in his head and seeing Naomi all season makes US insiders to Cas’s issues and puts us on his side firmly by knowing WHY he’s acting this way, so it’s a good storyline to nurture us through Dean’s issues with Cas while being given an inside line to being sympathetic to Cas since we know what Dean doesn’t about how he’s being controlled the entire time. 

Taken in that spirit, I can see the show just wanting to reconcile TFW and Dean and Cas in particular as a goal to shoot towards and the conclusion might just have been that they all make it good before whatever ending they had in mind for the main plot stuff. Along with a healthy dose of subtext to keep you guessing about how that relationship was. 

Anyway, as I said, I don’t like subscribing to theories which are too speculative and treating them like they’re too real and like… definitely what the show is doing… makes me really itchy for the above reasons in the fan wank section of this reply… so the one that Destiel is now being woven into season 12 to the same way it was in season 8 to the eventual aim of canon puts me off for the reasons I hope you can guess from all that rambling :P 

Even if I have hope that it MIGHT be on the books doesn’t mean I’ll really commit to saying it’s narratively going anywhere for sure, because that seems like a great way to start a cult and end up in the shame bin and reviled by people one day. I want to see fandom through to the end of the show and see what happens with you all, so short-sighted plans about building a rocket to Mars in my back yard seems like a great way to end up sitting in a fizzled out rocket still on the ground in my yard with a bunch of people who want their money back :D

I do think the endgame the show is working towards is going to be positive for Destiel fans and probably at the very least a good final touching moment, although I think the show will pretty much certainly end on Sam and Dean together as the sign off moment, even if the moment before that is Dean smooching Cas in the kitchen before grabbing a couple of beers to go hang with his brother just the 2 of them out on the front porch of their weirdo hunter commune house. Or whatever happens. But you know, even in the Destiel is totally canon and it all ends happily world, it’s not ABOUT them, it’s about Sam and Dean and as much as it’s about everyone else they love too, they’d be there to show there’s a world for them to save/that they have saved and can retire to, if Mary and Cas survive to the end. 

But there are many subtextual ways between that hazy dream ending and, like, total character death save the world through mass sacrifice kinda ending, and all of which can make Destiel look like it was where things were/would have gone. At the current point in canon you can say the exact same thing, which is the point I was making that went right over some heads where they got fixated on me dancing gleefully around Cas’s dead body fulfilling my prophecy or whatever. If the show ended there, with the way Dean and Cas were connected over the season, you could argue their hearts belonged to each other, but they never got a chance to really do anything about it. 

It’s the shitty subtextual Cas is dead ending I’d always dreaded if the show really wanted to fuck with us, but it’s one they could have done, and it would have left things open ended enough for academics and fans and whoever else to yell forever about if it had all meant what we thought it did, to a collection of contradictory comments from cast and crew.

The only way is up from here for Cas’s personal development, seeing as he’s finally doing the truly transformative death experience, and Cas’s personal development is where Destiel subtext is most closely tied, while Dean’s personal development has been a mess of performing Dean and bi Dean and issues with his parents and the codependency, and he’s opening up like a beautiful flower, but it’s still largely a sort of concept that Destiel can just sort of happen when Dean’s got far enough down the line on dealing with all these issues as a kind of lump problem, and Cas’s arc is much more mythological, tied into identity and belonging, but the target has been clear since like… 4x22… (and I mean “clear” rather than “oh shit it’s going to haaaappen” like it is from the start of the season :P) that it’s going to all land on Dean. And clear since like… idk, 6x20? that the feeling is pretty romantic from his end so in an ideal world he lands on Dean romantically. 

And all subsequent positive development on the ship’s possibility has been clearing hurdles and tidying up character development that’s all pretty much check lists made back in season 8 or after the wank when with clearer heads people began to wonder just what was standing in the way of them if they were going to go canon, but not right then. Stuff like Claire and the vessel occupancy issue. Or the slow progress of Cas putting words to his family to call them that and the Bunker home and so on. Steps that all the stretching of the story has let them explore in minute detail.

So I can see that it’s possible that this all develops into something that works incredibly well for the chances of Destiel and since season 10 I’ve had the suspicion, thanks to Claire and the Dean-focused character development episodes, that they were working on the same tick list as us. But I’m not sure if it will pay off exactly as we want to see, while at the same time  being over the moon delighted when another step forward happens. And season 12 moved a lot of ground, some of it unexpectedly quickly, and other things like, unburying them from ruts they’d been stuck in forever. 

I don’t think going on from here season 13 will be immediately disappointing if Cas and Dean aren’t desperately romantically linked all the time because the show still acts like they have their own personal dramas when it’s not letting them see each other as the only people in a room. I don’t think it would be very productive to tally up events as if they’re constructing a narrative where we have to wait for pay off at a very set date, because even though I think that pay off will come at a very set date if we’re lucky and they honour their subtext. The show doesn’t seem to have an end, I honestly don’t trust Dabb as far as I can throw him not to just randomly make Destiel canon because he thinks it’ll be funny and make us happy because I have no grasp on his showrunning except he’s a massive troll with his finger on the fandom pulse. And honestly I don’t get much pleasure from constructing the elaborate forward narratives when I can be much more excited about the immediate stuff, living in the moment, and taking the Destiel subtext as it comes. 

After the mixtape moment there was a lot of spec about if we’d see it again or what it meant building forwards, and I felt it wasn’t going to be mentioned again, and that it was much more valuable for that moment and what it told us about Dean and Cas, than using it for a forwards sign, which to me often just means taking quick stock of a thing happening in present canon then barrelling ahead into the future. While to me the richness in the story is wallowing in what has been opened up about the past, about Dean making the mixtape, when he gave it to Cas, and all the backstory implied by the 5 second moment of that exchange, because it implies so much more going backwards than it ever meant going forwards, as it wasn’t mentioned again all season. We could go forwards knowing Dean and Cas were at the sort of stage of the relationship where mixtapes happen in such a way, but we can’t use it to divine an entire forward plot about it, because that way lies the sort of “make everything Cas ever does about guinea pigs and bees” nonsense because fixating on passing moments as information about character stuff we need to know for later, that there’ll be a bigger pay off later, to me does sort of ruin the fun of the present.

There’s manageable foreshadowing and speculation like guessing what the turducken sign is all about, because its original context was very Destiel, and there’s stuff like guessing about the PB&J where it has so many contexts that even when it connects to Cas I saw that as somewhat connecting him with *Kevin* and lil baby Sam in 9x07 when Cas was eating it in 9x11, and the Destiel connection was the link to humanity, and Dean as being somewhat connected as the PB&J provider to their weirdo family. But he also brought Kevin prune juice as a far more loving gesture, you know? :P Until we have context on these things I hate to get invested in many forward spec things as Destiel related or feeding a larger narrative.

I also think there’s a big difference between meta and spec and I am much more comfortable offering analysis of what has already happened and maybe venturing an idea of how things will play out but not wedding myself to it, especially as that’s how I’ve seen people get fandom burn out, and also I hate looking wrong :P So for my own ego, again, it’s nice to sit and enjoy spec as entertainment but not get so involved I’m writing convoluted theories about it.

Tl;dr, I’m hopefully understandably wary about what canon positivity can do to a fandom, even just from second-hand tales and snooping old blogs back in season 9 when it was all a bit closer to the surface. I have a very comfortable place I’m sitting, which has been rocked about a bit by how on the nose season 12 was, but until I can be sure I really do not want to ever commit to a speculation about anything being set up for canon that we can see in the narrative. I think we’re at an AMAZING place with where we’ve progressed in canon but I’m trying so so hard to keep it contained as if season 12 is where it all ends for now, and I will try and take each episode as it comes when it’s what people might read about what happens next with Destiel, because none of us are qualified to answer it. And the meta community seems to be in a really weird place again with an up surge in positivity that’s making the gold standard of speculation rise, and I’d rather learn from the past and be OVER CAREFUL than get involved in a huge fandom fuck up about all this :P And I hope if I really am supposedly that influential, I can try and be an example of not counting chickens, even when I think I’m holding a very full basket.

#Asks #riverboat gambling #you could probably scroll that tag to see me wizening up like a walnut #season 13 speculation #destiel

[orchestratingkitty]

So I’ve been thinking about this a lot. When I first heard Jensen say Destiel doesn’t exist, I was (like most of the Destiel fandom) pretty hurt. I’ve since seen people attack him, people critique him, people defend him, and people applaud him. So I’m gonna go one-by-one through the most common responses I’ve seen in the past couple days and debunk them.

“He’s cute and hot! How could anyone say he’s a homophobe?”

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Homophobes don’t look a certain way. You could see an ugly homophobe standing next to a hot as hell homophobe and they’d both be homophobes. The way Jensen Ackles looks doesn’t change the way he is on the inside. Good that we got the dumbest thing anyone’s ever said out of the way.

“He has gay friends/family members, so he isn’t homophobic.”

Uh huh. I once had a discussion with a white dude who loved saying the n word. He loved it. It was his favorite word. He claimed that he had a black friend who was cool with him doing it and thus he used it all the time. The dude had a black friend! Maybe more! Does that change the fact that he was racist? Hell no. There’s actual LGBT+ people out there who have internalized homophobia. If gay people can be homophobic, then why would we dismiss the homophobia of a man who just knows gay people?

“Lots of terrible things happen to him at cons. He’s mistreated.”

This is really true. He is groped and sexually harassed (from what I’ve read) at photo-ops and people ask him uncomfortable questions all the time. This is irrelevant, however. Everyone goes through hard things. Everyone. That doesn’t mean they have the right to say stupid, homophobic shit without consequences. The next time you want to argue on behalf of your favorite actor, do him the justice of making it a relevant and sensible argument.

“He was just stating his opinion.”

Yeah, in the rudest way possible. I’d have much preferred if he answered in the way Jared had when asked about Eileen. “Dean doesn’t room for romance right now” would have been a totally acceptable and neutral way of handling the question. You’re not promising anything and you’re not insulting anybody. The way he answered was beyond stating an opinion - it was rude and that is my main problem with it.

“He gets flustered at cons! He’s shy!”

He has done this before. He’s insulted Destiel before - sometimes to the point where he seemed to support Dean and Cas not having any sort of relationship. He’s never apologized. You know who else is shy? Me. And you guys aren’t gonna say “she gets flustered” before sending me hate for saying this about Jensen. No, you’re gonna attack me anyway. I’m barely an adult and he’s a middle-aged man but you’d be fine with ripping me a new one for critiquing his PR skills. That makes sense.

“Destiel is a fanservice ship.”

No, it isn’t. It’s the exact opposite. People ship Destiel because Cas and Dean have practically tangible chemistry and if one of them were a chick, they’d have banged a long time ago. Don’t fight me on this - it’s true. The biggest argument against it being fanservice is the fact that fans aren’t getting anything they want. They get queerbaiting instead. As I’ll discuss later, you cannot compare the average straight ship with a queer ship. They’re not the same. They don’t get canon/debunked for the same reasons. They’re not treated the same by the creators so we as fans can’t lose sight of their differences either. Hello? Homophobia exists? Jesus, you’d think this goes without saying.

“People shouldn’t ask ship related questions anyway.”

I’ve seen this one debunked already, but I feel like it needs to be said more to get into some people’s thick skulls. I guess I agree. The cast is not responsible for deciding where the story will go. They do not decide which ship becomes canon or not and even though they have views of where a character’s mindset is at times, they can’t be the final authority. I honestly couldn’t care less if Jensen is made uncomfortable by these questions, though. Mainly this is because he isn’t uncomfortable with people talking about straight ships or even about Dean fucking his car. Honestly? Getting “flustered” by a question about a queer ship is fucking pathetic. Jensen. You’re a grown ass man. Grow up. You’re not Dean. No one is accusing you of not being a straight man, okay? No need to be so defensive. Your masculinity isn’t being called into question, so you can put away your macho act and be a human being again, okay?

“Destiel doesn’t exist.”

Where? On the show? Maybe not. They are fictional characters, if that’s what you mean. No, it isn’t real. Neither is Dean Winchester. Neither is Castiel. None of it exists, in reality. But in regards to the fictional realm, what Jensen said was stupid because it simply wasn’t true. Destiel does exist. Thousands of fans interpret Cas and Dean’s relationship to be romantic and thus, to some extent, it exists. I wasn’t gonna say anything about queerbaiting, but the amount of unscripted touching between the two on the show should raise eyebrows now if it doesn’t exist. But if it really and truly doesn’t exist then where is all the defensiveness coming from? Why are people wasting their time making anti-blogs about it, if there’s no threat of it becoming canon? Why are people so passionate about hating it if it isn’t real? You guys do all the arguing for me, don’t you?

This isn’t a common argument, but you get this a lot: “Good job, Jensen, for telling those Destihellers off.”

Jensen Ackles, this is a warning. You’re getting yourself associated with the wrong sort. You do not want people to think you’re warming up to them, I promise. It is probably the shittiest PR move you could make, aligning yourself with homophobes. Don’t be proud of what you said. It was rude and cold and you were insulting a lot of the SPNfamily in the process. No one is saying you have to support Destiel, but this is disgusting.

Okay - here it goes (this has to be said):

It’s been five days since Trump was inaugurated into the presidency and he’s already promised to eliminate LGBT+ rights by placing FADA on his list of priorities. Jensen, you shouldn’t have said anything that could be construed as homophobic. Queer kids all over the country are terrified of how they’ll be treated in the future if FADA gets passed. Right now, you should be supporting these kids, helping them trust themselves, helping them feel assured. Instead, you’re bashing what a lot of people like me are clinging to. You can argue I’m just distracting from the argument, but this is relevant. Jensen is American. He knows what’s going on. Within days of Trump’s inauguration (was it two days after? I don’t remember.), he’s put salt on a wound.

It’s rare to find an LGBT+ character on TV who isn’t a goddamn stereotype. Bi and trans characters are especially hard to find. Bi characters are often ridiculously one-dimensional - a bi girl has a threesome, a bi guy is hiding that he’s actually gay. A lot of bi people like me love that Dean (who we interpret to be bisexual) is not a stereotype. He isn’t what straight people look at and think of as “gay” or “bi”. We cling to him because we’re living in a world where even people in the LGBT+ community can be biphobic. And Jensen just spat in our faces.

Speaking of, can all you non-bi or pan LGBT+ folk please stop using that when defending him? As in, please stop saying “as an LGBT+ person, y’all are overreacting”. If you’re not bi, this might not hurt you as much. I’ve seen gay people actually say “Destiel wouldn’t do anything for gay representation”. In actuality, we’re aiming for bi representation and seeing as you’re gay you have no right to say what would or wouldn’t help in terms of representation. I’m bi and I’m not overreacting. Other bi people out there who had their hearts broken aren’t overreacting. Though, as LGBT+, you should be concerned too. This is about a lot more than just a ship, guys. Thanks to homophobia, not all ships are created equal, and straight ships are not the same as queer ones.

I used to watch Gossip Girl when I was in middle school (embarrassing, I know). Every possible combination of straight ships had at some point become canon - even the more far-fetched ones. Every single one. I’ve since started disliking the show, but it is a useful comparison. No one complains when people bring up Dean/Amara (which was canonically nonconsensual) or Dean/Lisa at cons. They’re ships, too! I thought ships weren’t an appropriate topic at cons? Or is it okay because they’re straight? Is it okay because they actually have a shot? The fact that queer ships are clung onto so desperately due to the likelihood of them never coming true is tragic. We shouldn’t be afraid to say we ship something gay. We shouldn’t be afraid to bring it up in conversation. We should feel the same wobbly uncertainty that is inspired by straight ships. It should be a question of “will they won’t they” (and not in a queerbaiting way) instead of a feeling of “well, I know because it’s gay it’ll never happen but I still think it’s cute.” Most fan-favorite straight ships become canon in some way or another (across the board, in all TV shows) while queer ships are sneered at and thought of as taboo (the fact that Dean/Elena - a ridiculous straight crack ship - gets less hate and question marks than Destiel is a pretty good example of this. Honestly, you guys are fucking sad sometimes).

Why do we have to give up or surrender our ship just because it’s gay? That’s bullshit and I refuse.

I’m not saying Jensen is homophobic, I guess. Don’t attack me for it (or if you do, don’t use any of the arguments I’ve refuted. You’ll look like an idiot). He is obviously uneducated in regards to this. His comment was thoughtless and ignored context and timing. He said something rude that hurt people for all sorts of reasons. He has room to grow and if he does come forward and patch this up, I’ll be the first one to cry tears of joy. I’m against people sending him hate or death threats. Please don’t. Not only is that disgusting, but it sure as hell doesn’t convince him that we’re reasonable people who just want their ship acknowledged.

Also, if someone accuses you of being homophobic, instead of being defensive, maybe think of why they’d say so, and fix that.

Don’t be too quick to defend him. He’s an adult. He can do that himself. All you LGBT+ people out there shouldn’t be apologizing for him, either. Stand by those of us who are genuinely and rightfully hurt. What he said isn’t okay and nobody who’s hurt here is overreacting. If you think this isn’t a big deal, you’re not looking at the whole picture. There is a war being fought in regards to LGBT+ representation in media and someone claiming that gay-shippers are delusional is not helping.

I’m actually hoping that this will receive 0 notes and no one will see it. Like I’ve said, I’m super shy and I don’t really wanna tag this with anything someone will find but at the same time, it annoys me how this has gotten brushed over. I’m posting so late because it took a while for me to actually process my thoughts into something comprehensible.

#spn wank #spn #fuck man im actually scared #so much for protecting the flustered right?

[charlie-minion]

21 Supernatural Questions

I was tagged by @amwritingmeta – thank you for including me, sweetie. You’re so lovely! I gotta tell you that it honestly made my day when I read that one of my favorite meta writers considers my blog one of her favorites, so yeah… thanks! :’D

Now let’s tackle these super fun questions ;-)

1. When did you start watching Supernatural?

I remember I watched for the first time around 2009. Season 4 was on, here in my country, on Warner Channel. I’m sure that season had already finished in the U.S. at that time, but it was just starting to air here in El Salvador. I didn’t know anything about the show and I didn’t know what season that was either, but now I know it was 4 because all I remember was that some dude had rescued another dude from Hell. Period. I understood next to nothing about the plot because I hadn’t seen any episode prior to the beginning of S4. I caught a few episodes now and then and continued to watch for some time until the schedule changed. The eps started to air at 11:00 p.m. and I had to get up early for work, so I stopped watching.

In 2013, I spent one year living in North Carolina with my older sister. I was having a difficult time, so I moved to my birth country (USA) to escape everyone and everything. I had no TV in my room, but I had my laptop and my sis had the first 7 seasons of Supernatural, so I was like, “Hey! I might FINALLY understand that freaking show that looked so cool”. That’s how I started. I wasn’t planning to binge-watch the whole thing, but it became addictive pretty fast.

I loved the first 3 seasons, but once I got to season 4 and Castiel was introduced, I was hooked for real! When I watched season 5 and I saw the “I did it, all of it, for you” from 5x02, I started Googling Dean and Cas, because I was SO SURE I was seeing romance there, and I couldn’t be the only one. I was super excited when I found out there was a Supernatural FANDOM (back then I had no idea that was a thing). And I was even more excited when I learned about Destiel, about shipping, and about all the fandom culture. I joined Twitter, became a Misha stan because the more I read about him, the more I adored him, and I got caught up just in time to watch 8x17 live.

Can you imagine becoming a Dean/Cas shipper all on my own, doing research, finding out about Destiel and then the VERY FIRST EPISODE I watched live, while living in the U.S., was Goodbye Stranger written by Robbie Thompson?!! Those were the days!

I have been watching live, along with the fandom, ever since March 20, 2013. I joined Tumblr during the hiatus and started writing meta (accidentally) at the very beginning of season 9. So yeah! This show has been a very important part of my life for over 6 years now, and I don’t want to think about how things might change after the show ends. NOPE. Not thinking about it AT ALL. (At least not yet).

2. Who is your favorite in TFW?

I absolutely LOVE my three boys. I want them to be happy because they deserve it. But, we can all have a favorite, right? I was a Dean!girl when I started binge-watching. When Cas was introduced, I became a huge Cas fan, and I thought he had become my favorite. However, lately I’ve understood that I became a huge MISHA fan, and that’s a little different. If we’re talking about the SPN cast, Misha is and will always be my favorite because he’s a real life angel. I love that man with all I have! But, if we’re talking about the SPN characters, I have to admit that I will forever be a Dean!girl, no matter what.

I’ll continue after the cut because, apparently, it’s impossible for me to give brief answers :P

3. Who is your least favorite in TFW?

This question sounds cruel, but I want to understand it in a ranking way, not in an “I hate this character” one.

If I have to rank TFW, for me, it would be:

Dean

Cas

Sam

HOWEVER, let it be known that I love my three boys immensely, and I want a happy endgame for the three of them. If Dean and Cas had a happy ending, but Sammy didn’t, that would ruin it for me. Ranking doesn’t equal hating.

4. Tag your top 5 Supernatural blogs!

I’ve said I follow very few blogs because I curate my fandom experience a lot, but you guys make my time on Tumblr extraordinary. I enjoy seeing you in my dash, reading what you blog or reblog and just knowing that you’re around as part of this community. If you answer these questions, please tag me ‘cause I’d like to read what you got to say about our beloved show. Much love to each of you! ♥♥♥♥♥

@dimples-of-discontent @mittensmorgul @cas-you-assbutt-dean-needs-you @naruhearts @casthegrumpy @fangirlingtodeath513 @bluestar86 @viva-la-cockles @obsessionisaperfume @caswouldratherbehere @perfectlyelegantdelusion @occamshipper @amwritingmeta (and no, Annelie, I’m not tagging you because you tagged me; you truly deserve to be here). 

If you’re not tagged, please forgive my poor memory, but if we’ve talked before, or I reblog/like your posts, please know that I adore you. ♥

5. Who is your favorite character (not including TFW)?

Oh my! This is so hard to answer. Supernatural has had so many amazing characters that choosing only one is hard. But I guess I have to go with Charlie Bradbury. The only time I seriously considered to stop watching the show was when Charlie was killed off. I was very angry and disappointed, and 10x21 became an episode I truly hate. I don’t think I have ever re-watched the whole ep because the writing was SO BAD. Dean and Sam were stupid in that ep, and Cas was basically a lamp. I… NOPE. Disgusting episode for sure. And I lost my beautiful lesbian queen.

 6. Who is your favorite woman in Supernatural?

I should say Charlie again, but because she got covered in my favorite non-TFW character, I will choose someone else for favorite woman.

And that has got to be Rowena. I don’t think there has ever been a female character in Supernatural written better than Rowena. And because the show’s ending, there will never be.  

7. John or Mary?

Definitely Mary. We got to know her better. I know certain parts of the fandom didn’t care much for her, but I loved her a lot, not despite her flaws but because of them! She was made human in a realistic way. We had only seen the idealized version of her through Dean’s eyes, but once we got to meet the real Mary, it was something I enjoyed. John, on the other hand, is not a bad person, but he wasn’t the best parent. He loved his children, and I know that, but his love doesn’t negate all the crap he put his sons through, even if his intentions came from a good place. I like the closure the boys got with him in 14x13, though. I was not against it at all. But, as John would say in that ep, “Me versus your mom? That’s – that’s not even a choice.”

8. What were your first opinions of Sam, Dean, Cas, and Jack?

Dean: Since the first moment I saw Dean, I knew he was faking and was trying to hide how broken he felt. That’s why I fell in love with him from the get-go.

Sam: My first opinion was that he was supposed to be the mature and detached brother.

Cas: I thought that he was meant to be the epitome for the enemies to friends trope. (And I added “to lovers” one season later).

Jack: The only opinion I had was that he was going to be the opposite of Lucifer. The characters were saying he was evil way too early for it not to be subverted. 

9. What’s your favorite season?

There are many seasons I love. I mean, this show has given us SO MUCH. But, season 8 is probably my favorite for two reasons. First of all, because it was the first one I watched live once I caught up. And to this day, the season finale still blows my mind.

And second, because it was when Carver took the reins of the show and did his best to fix the Gamble era. He gave the Dean/Cas dynamic a serious note, narratively speaking. I’ve said before that even though I shipped Destiel in the previous seasons, it wasn’t until season 8 that I saw an intentional development. It wasn’t played for kicks and laughs anymore, and it wasn’t just Misha’s and Jensen’s doing either. It was in the plot. The whole ‘I stayed one year in Purgatory just to get you back’ and all the ‘I couldn’t bear to think you didn’t want to come with me, so I chose to make it my fault’. Season 8 marked a new era, indeed, and Destiel became a real thing from then on, in my opinion.  

10. What’s your least favorite season?

Even though there are some episodes from that season that I truly love (and they’ve become memorable, like The French Mistake or The Man Who Would Be King), as a whole, I don’t enjoy season 6 much. After a formidable season 5, Sera struggled to keep the boat afloat and it shows. Season 6 is certainly the weakest.

11. Opinions on Destiel?

My whole blog was born because of Destiel, so? What do you want me to say? Hahahaha. Destiel is life. And I can divide my opinion in 4 (depending on the showrunner):

Destiel was a fortunate accident during the Kripke era. It was played for laughs and it was the result of whatever was going on between Jensen and Misha. Their chemistry had nothing to do with the script.

Destiel was a tool during the Gamble era. I don’t like to use the word “queerbait”, but I think the closest Supernatural has been to that was when Sera was the showrunner. It seems to me like she used the ship to lure the fandom and keep the audience, but it’s clear she had no intention of giving a resolution (we all know how she treated Misha, so…).

Destiel became an intentional part of the narrative during the Carver era. As I said before, it wasn’t until season 8 when you could clearly see that things were not accidentally there anymore. It wasn’t a joke, either. The ship sailed for real during the Carver era, but Jeremy was not allowed to give a resolution because the show continued to be renewed.

Destiel became canon during the Dabb era. I mean, I know people will argue that it’s not canon yet. And I understand what they mean. But, in my opinion, Destiel hasn’t been TEXTUALLY made canon, but when Andrew took the reins of the show, he made Dean and Cas sooooo married that I came to the conclusion explaining the subtext was unnecessary. It was WAY too in the nose to need explaining. So, I stopped trying hahaha. I don’t know if we’ll ever get Textual Canon Destiel, but in regards to Subtext, it can’t get more canon than that. And noooo, that doesn’t mean queerbait at all. Queercoding is a thing, you know?

12. Do you believe Supernatural queerbaits?

As per my previous answer, currently I don’t think Supernatural queerbaits. I do believe Dabb, Bobo and company want to give the Dean/Cas storyline a satisfying resolution. I have no idea what they will be allowed to do, but even if they can’t textually give us what we want, I have faith they will find a subtextually strong way to wrap things up. I enjoyed when Misha and Jensen explained in the DC Cockles panel the restrictions the CW puts, and I think it applies to so much more than blood and language.

13. Seasons 1-7 or 8-14?

Seasons 8-14, no doubt. For two reasons: 1) They are really good (and gave Destiel relevance) and 2) those are the seasons when I was already part of the fandom and could enjoy week after week.

14. Favorite villain (plot wise)?

I think Chuck is the best of the best. Because when we look back, we now know that all the other villains were thanks to Chuck’s machinations. Plot wise that’s amazeballs! I mean, the fact that we always thought (or hoped) that God was on the Winchesters’ side just to learn he was the villain all along. Chef’s kiss!

 15. Do you think they should end the Lucifer plot line?

I think they squeezed the freaking Lucifer plot line as much as they could… until it got to a point where I was sick of it. Everything related to Nick and Lucifer in season 14 was stupid and boring, to say the least. The plot line should have ended when Dean stabbed Lucifer. Although… I would have liked a better closure for Sam, but I’m good. As long as I don’t have to see Pellegrino again, I’m good.

16. Who do you think has gone through more trauma (Sam, Dean, or Cas)?

I don’t like this question and refuse to answer because trauma is NOT a competition (either in real life or in fiction). Trauma is trauma and it affects people. Something Sam went through was painful to him and that same thing may be less traumatic to Cas, but that doesn’t mean the repercussions and the suffering are less real for Sam, just because Cas suffered in other ways that may have affected him more. Trauma is personal. All I know is that the three of them have gone through A LOT and that’s why they deserve peace and happiness. Period.

17. What’s your favorite Supernatural episode?

There are more than 300 reasons to love this show. I mean, it’s almost impossible to choose ONE episode out of so many that I love. But for the sake of this question, I will answer with a very personal choice. My favorite ep could probably be 12x22 because of the moments between Dean and Mary. Dean needed a moment to finally say what he had been repressing all his life. All that hate mixed with all that love. He needed to let it out. And it was both gut-wrenching and beautiful to watch. I always cry when I see it (and I mean gross sobbing for real).

18. Do you like case episodes?

I like them most of the time. I don’t enjoy them so much when they air because I would like the plot to move forward, but it’s the case episodes where we learn more about what’s going on with our characters (their internal emotional battles) through other characters and subtext. It’s an interesting exercise, and that’s why I end up liking most case episodes in the end.

19. Who do you relate most to in TFW?

For people who have been following my blog for some time, this will come as no surprise. I relate the most to Dean Winchester.

In fact, I AM DEAN. I can find in my life every single thing about Dean’s journey. I came to accept my sexuality thanks to Dean (first as bisexual, and later as demisexual once I became more educated). I have felt worthless and like I don’t deserve to live or to be loved, just as much as Dean. I have felt like a burden, like I’m here just to help/please others, and if I’m not doing that, then I’m failing at life.

I get why Dean lashes out and hurts the people he loves even though he’s so afraid to lose them. I understand why Dean builds huge walls to protect himself from being hurt and what he needs to grow. Because his struggles are my struggles. And now I’m crying, so I better move on to the next question.  

20. Why do you like Supernatural?

I like Supernatural because I’ve been able to learn about myself thanks to the characters. Despite being a genre show, the personal journeys (character arcs) have been so real and relatable that I truly think this show is a masterpiece. The fact that I’ve grown as a human being thanks to an ordinary TV show is incredible. I don’t think there will ever be another show like Supernatural in my life.

21. If you could bring back one character and kill off another who would they be?

I would bring back Charlie. The original Charlie. I mean, I know we have seen lovely Felicia Day again thanks to AU!Charlie, but I couldn’t connect with her the same way I did with the original one. Probably because not even the boys have been able to connect with her the same way, either. They see her and they will always see the little sister they lost. It’s hard to think of AU!Charlie as her own person if she always reminds you of the one you lost. ETA: I forgot who I would kill. I guess no one. I mean, if Lucifer were still around, I'd kill him. Or Nick. I just got tired of his face.

Wow! This turned into a very long post, but I had so much fun.

I tag EVERYONE who would like to do this as a way to pay tribute to our wonderful show. Much love to y’all!

#tagging game #supernatural #21 spn questions #spn fandom #destiel adjacent