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#show discussion
holographicbegonia · 10 months
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Bro I am so confused.
Okay, Miraculous Season 5 Finale, uhhhhh
SPOILERS AHEAD
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Mega confusion and discussion spoilers under the cut
I thought it was going really well! There was a lot happening in a little time, but it all seemed to be explained at least a little bit. I literally just finished it so here’s my thought process:
I love me a good ol’ crossover in film and animation when they bring in all the past characters from movies, old episodes, etc. And I thought it was really cool! Bringing the United Heros, Fei, Alice, hehehehehe and
*spongebob voice* hiii lukaa
Luka, Jagged, and Penny become part of the Order of the Guardians? Okay yeah whatever I’m not gonna question it. No I am: LIKE I UNDERSTAND LUKA BUT WHY IS JAGGED DOING MIRAKUNG FU-
it was a cool fight scene. Seeing everyone use their powers and working together was fun!
On the other side of the episode-/ we all got thrown for a LOOP man
Does anyone else think it feels really weird how, Prior to the end of the episode, Adrian had like- two scenes? While, yes, he can’t do much without his miraculous, it was weird not getting an update on him and kagami while they’re in confinement. Also while we’re here, lately all we’ve been talking about is how they’re finally revealing the whole sentimonster thing, and why Adrian responds to every command of his father, YET EVERYTHING HE DOES IN THE BEGINNING HES DIRECTLY DISOBEYING GABRIELS ORDERS?? I’m confused
And the big thing, the miraculous’.
I’m a little surprised you’re even able to unify tikki and plagg considering using them together for a wish summons REALITY BITCH OVER HERE/
Marinette immediately gets her cover blown to Gabriel, same with him. So now, it’s personal. Marinette had a pretty calm reaction to EMILIES BODY (dead? Comatosed? Idk anymore) and caught on pretty quick to what Gabriel wanted- and I thought it was going so well! Marinette talked him down, the boomerang trick was cool, the butterfly miraculous, one of the only og miraculous left, so we should keep it safe, GETS FLUNG INTO WATER// which also, Lyla walks in the Agreste Manor mid-fight, but unless I missed it, isn’t seen until the end with the miraculous. You’re telling me she swam through that green ass basement water and got the miraculous?
I genuinely though Gabriel was gonna fold. After seeing the video on Natalie’s phone. Knock some sense into him that, this isn’t what she wanted. I mean, SURLY they’re not gonna let him do the Big Bang thing this entire show over the course of 8 years has stopped him from doing. Yknow since it’s been explained multiple times over 8. Years. Surly with the amount of destruction it does, and we have new seasons coming, they won’t let him do the thing.
He DOEs THE THING.
Also, side note: the kwamis real form look really really cool but I NEED to see Pollens real form cause ik it’s BEAUTIFUL.
So, Yknow how Sass explained in pretty EASY TERMS to Luka how the wishing works?
Red Pen, Blue Pen.
This entire time we’ve been under the impression that in exchange for bringing back Emilie, everything would change. The people, the earth, everything currently in the world. A completely alternate universe where everything is different, except that Emilie is alive. The whole reason we’ve been rooting for Cat Noir and Ladybug to win, is because Gabriel winning was, morally, wrong. Romantic and sad, yes, but his entire mission was to destroy everything and everyone in his way to get his wife back. People DIED (kinda) Families ruined, worlds changed, and this was all before he made the wish. The whole conflict of the show so far was that yes, we’re rooting for our superheroes, but we also feel bad for Adrian and Gabriel losing Emilie: so we understand where his anger comes from.
This IS THROWN OUT THE DAMN WINDOW. bro idk if I blinked and missed something, if I did, lemme know, but/ everything was fine???? Are you kidding me??? i THINK what they were trying to get past, is that the person making the wish, would also choose what happens? I’m still trying to figure out so heres the possibilities in my brain.
Gabriel wished, and realized he was dying, so he gave his life in return for Emilie. (Unrealistic? Emilie (or her sister) is shown in the end, but if that were true and for some reason everyone remembers the past before the wish, Adrian would be freaking out a bit.)
Gabriel wished, knew he was dying, had his reunion, and gave his life for Natalie. This is why they didn’t have him outright say the wish, and instead have Gimmi read his soul. (While this is a little more realistic, after he saw the video, it leaves a lot of plotholes and issue to figure out.)
Gabriel wished for Emilie, and by pure chance, he was the trade. (Also unrealistic?)
It really depends, Natalie is seen at the end, much more healthy than previously, sitting next to either Emilie or Amelie. If it’s Emilie then there’s a whole issue, because the characters shown still had a memory of the world before? People would notice she’s there, while in comparison, a lot of people didn’t know Natalie was sick.
The end just, ticked me off. Five seasons, the emotional heartache we went thru believing that Gabriel would ruin the whole world, just for something so…anticlimactic? I know they’ve been building up Lyla as a villain much more recently, but completely killing off Gabriel takes out so much conflict out of the still-ongoing show. It’s an event we never thought would actually happen. We were built up to believe everyone and everything in the show would be gone, and that’s why it couldn’t happen. That yes, Gabriel knew the wish would destroy the world, but that he would give the entire universe for his Love, and his son to have his mom again. That’s what made it SAD and ROMANTIC and THEY THREW IT OUT???? Instead we get the same world, where everything kept going on. The destruction from the battle was fixed, Ms. Bustier won the election and changed a lot around Paris. The kids are all hanging out summer-style, Luka gets to stay in Paris (yes!) Adrian and Marinette get their kiss, and everything is good. I believed it was explained to Paris that, Ladybug and Gabriel Agreste worked together to defeat Monarch, and Gabriel died in battle? And yet in this last scene there’s little to no mourning or confused feelings from Adrian. He has the ring scene, but besides that: his father whom he recently has come to hate, because he started to see just how selfish he was to his mission in Paris, was actually cool and killed supervillain so it’s okay. LIKE- YOU CANT JUST DO THAT.
Marinette still remembers what happened, everyone remembers the day before the present. Everyone remembers their Kwamis and their powers. Lyla still had the butterfly miraculous. Ladybug and Cat Noir are…still needed? For something at the end? Is this the bad alternate reality where they defeated Monarch, so they went into retirement and had the ugliest children known to man? ITS JUST CONFUSING.
If we knew that Gabriel’s wish would just sacrifice one thing, we would have been fine with him wishing long ago because we didn’t have empathy for him yet. However, our explanation was Red pen, Blue pen. Not Red beans in exchange for Green Strawberries. Gabriels now death leaves too many open holes.
Is Alliance not a thing now? Is Tsurugi-San off the hook? Does she know what happened? Marinette knows Adrian is a sentimonster now, and in turn, SHOULD HE EVEN BE ALIVE RN? There’s a lot of rules for sentimonsters, but with what’s all happened I’m suprised Adrian still exists? Is Lyla just going to take over as Hawkmoth-Lyla? Is she going to have some big ol wish now, because we as the fandom had too much empathy for Gabriel?
It’s confusing, it’s also 8 am. So I’m going to eat and reread everything I just wrote to try and process. Have a good day everyone and PLEASE Use this to have a discussion on the episodes cause I’d like everything to be a little clearer. Thank you!
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limbobilbo · 7 months
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My opinions on the two newest episodes of fionna and cake
Spoilers btw
Marshal’s mom is a baddie fr and she bends a whole lot which is good and like hunsen
THEY LET THE GAY BOYS KISS RAAHHHHHHH
Man I feel so sad for Simon I always forget that adventure time destroys your heart
OMG DAVID MCCORMACK IS IN THE SHOW
ORBO IS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE SHOW
“Say goodbye to your legs mate”
fucking rip BMO
I am so sad with them going back into his head I dont want a sad ending
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void-inked-pen · 2 years
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sai user again! thanks so much for the response! i always think about how being mostly turtle affects their day to day life and their fighting. there are definitely scenes in the show where i’m screaming USE YOUR SHELL!! but i know from a writing standpoint if they used their shells it would defeat the drama meant to be taken place. i DO think it would be funny if they sometimes just forget that they can use their shells, but this isn’t really discussed so it’s just an empty spot. i’d say it’s fair that they still prefer to be facing their foes and such, probably because this is how splinter taught them to fight (since there’s only so much you can translate from human martial arts to turtle martial arts with little — at least canonically known — teaching experience), though them being overconfident in defense WOULD make an interesting episode or area to explore.
I’ll be real with you, I’m a huge TMNT 2012 fan. I grew up with it as a kid, and I’m currently on my rewatch of the show because Rise roped me back into TMNT as a whole. however, i’m not blind to the various errors this show has and enjoy discussing them in calm settings like these. there’s a lot to improve upon and a TON to explore since the story was admittedly restricted by their episodes being 20 minutes and (at least by the end iirc since it got cancelled) the rush to get it finished.
i saw a post comparing the family dynamics of 2012 and rise really well, and it was essentially this: the rise turtles are brothers learning to be better ninjas, while the 2012 turtles are ninjas learning to be better brothers. i personally find dysfunctional but caring families an interesting topic and 2012 family def has its dysfunctions (along with its functions, but i digress), however this isn’t really addressed all that much in canon. same goes for the generational trauma (between splinter’s father’s raising methods and, you know, both the foot and hamato clans experiencing what can only be succinctly described as genocides). i do feel like the characters develop as the story continues, though to be fair to you, you’ve only seen up to early s2 and therefore would not have this perspective. the writing still could definitely be improved upon, but hey, where would i be without it? someone has to come up with my based headcanons, it might as well be me!
i feel like there was more i wanted to say, but without your post right in front of me, my brain’s kind of failing. oh well! i’ll let you know if i have any other additions!
- sai guy
hello sai guy, lol we meet again~
I think I remember the post your talking about? I definitely remember the "raised different" part at least.
Also to give a little bit more insight: I got into rise because a friend dragged me kicking and screaming and after watching the first season, I got hooked into the franchise. I watched 2012 season 1 with them because they had actually grown up with 2012 and wanted to attempt to rewatch it (and you know how that turned out), I read most of the IDW series up to a certain point??? i haven't been able to keep reading the comics but I know I have most of them downloaded on my laptop somewhere. I also watched the Batman vs TMNT animated movie which was KILLER. So I am pretty well versed in the franchise at this point, I know how people characterize the turtles in different spheres, but I also know because I'm much older than the original demographic my opinions are a lot different.
I've read many a fic set in 2012 as well btw and I feel like some of those fics are a lot better at writing the characters and their characterization? their family is very dysfunctional, in pretty much EVERY series but I would also like to point out that calling it dysfunctional without pointing out some of the flaws in that family dynamic and how it is written is a bit.... negligent.
to give you a bit of an idea of what I mean: My friend really loves mikey. he is their favorite. but the writing of mikey in 2012 makes him out to be an actual idiot whose weird and just... its a lot of really bad representation especially since his mannerisms were written in a way that is similar to mocking people with ADHD (this is a time-related thing, I know thats how people were written like that back then but it does NOT AGE WELL). This writing really bummed my friend out who came from rise and got so much good content with Mikey who got hugs and tho he was considered the youngest he was still respected and written well (HE THREW A BOAT GUYS. HOW SKJHFJKSH).
my criticism of 2012 is biased and I know this but I also understand it was a lot of people's favorite show. People have screamed at me for pointing out flaws in leo's character and how he fights before, literally I made a post about it lol, which is not how you have a civilized conversation about a show you like and want to defend. 2012 had its merits I'm sure, but it also had a lot of issues because of the medium it was in, the writers on crew, the design team, and how people viewed the franchise to begin with. (the original story was a mocking of power rangers and stuff guys, it was supposed to be goofy and weird. the literal antagonists are called "The Foot Clan" like???? you can make it gritty but don't forget its roots!)
i believe a lot of shows could be improved upon in general and if your not open to criticism about what people like me, a fan who is an animator and understands the intricacies and minutia behind the scenes, then you may have your nostalgia goggles on too tight there buddy (not you sai guy, lol you actually sound open minded. this is a general out to everyone response)
anyway, that serious talk aside, appreciate the general convo Sai Guy~ hope you enjoy your rewatch of 2012!
-Pen
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zelenaolovka · 8 months
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We started watching the first season of Outlander, and I must say, it captivated me right from the start. Gradually, my fiancé also became engrossed, transforming this series into our cherished pastime, as we theorize about what will happen next! 🥰
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mobius-m-mobius · 9 days
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#so unserious 😂💖
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manda-kat · 28 days
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Friendly reminder that if you used to go to Church or a Christian school as a kid, but did not continue to study or grow your faith as you got older, than - no, you actually don't understand Christianity on the same level as a practicing adult believer.
I'm tired of hearing people dismiss the Christian faith and say 'well, I went to church as a kid, so I know what you believe'. That's the same as saying, 'my parents took my to the aquarium every week as a kid, so I know as much as your average marine biologist'.
If you're going to brag about how much knowledge you have about Christianity anyway, you should at least try not to say it on posts where you get things blatantly wrong about the Bible, the Church or- idk- the core message of the Gospel.
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shivroythinker · 10 months
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rewatching mass in time of war and the whole shiv-kendall interaction where they're arguing over whether she knew about cruises and she's like i never got in the pool with any of those creeps and he's like yeah because dad let a gang of creeps run cruises and she's like no kendall because i was fifteen is just so. like interesting to me. it feels like one of very few direct, in-your-face reminders that shiv was both the only girl with three brothers but it wasn't just her brothers, she was a girl SURROUNDED by mainly men for most of her girlhood. and i think for all of kendall's posturing in that scene and his maybe-partly-authentic interest in dismantling the sexist abuse in waystar he has probably not considered that his only sister had an entirely different set of experiences considering he thinks a fifteen year old girl not getting in the pool with a bunch of grown men must mean she knew that those men were involved in large-scale sex crimes,,, and like whether she or any of them knew or not as children is a different conversation but i just think that scene is interesting from the perspective of like. we hear so little about their childhoods and it feels like a glimpse into the isolation of a girlhood without a present mother or sisters or anyone to guide you or contextualize your experiences. materially you have everything you could ever want but still you are profoundly alone
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battlekidx2 · 3 months
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I want to elaborate even further on why I think Alastor’s breakdown in the finale was (at least in part) motivated by the fact that he has come to care about the people at the hotel. A few people have responded to me saying they don't believe he actually cares or asking me about my opinions on certain counterarguments against the interpretation that he cares and I figured it would be easier to just make one post in response. (this is just meant to expand on my thoughts. You don't have to agree. That's half the fun of media interpretation.)
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The consistent throughline I keep being told is that his breakdown was purely motivated by pride and loss of control and I do think these were massive parts of the breakdown.
Alastor is very aware of the fact that the situation around him is spiraling out of his control. That the notoriety he had cultivated as an unchallengeable overlord is crumbling. His time away allowed the fear he sowed to dull. He keeps coming face to face with beings that rival or surpass his strength. People who wouldn’t dare question him before are banging on his door. His foothold in the world isn’t secure like it once was and that has him reeling.
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Alastor's pride is a driving factor in his actions, but, like I said in my last analysis, I think this is only part of it. I think this breakdown is motivated by the fact that he feels like he’s losing control of himself on top of the situation around him.
I'm going to start with the points/questions I've been asked first then expand on my thoughts after.
The first one I was asked about is the interpretation that Alastor was mocking the very idea that he would sacrifice himself for someone else when he says "Great Alastor, altruist, died for his friends." and I think that would work if it wasn't for the visuals paired with this line.
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He literally looks like THIS when he is speaking the line. This isn’t the face of someone mocking the very idea that he would do this.
It was actually this shot that convinced me there was some truth to the words he was saying because it looks like he’s beginning to have a breakdown over the fact that this is almost exactly what happened.
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The second one that I was asked about was the idea that he was forced to fight and protect Charlie by whoever owns his soul. But if he was forced to fight in this battle due to his contract why not describe it this way when alone? How could he even leave if he was forced to fight and protect the hotel? I doubt there was a caveat that he could leave the fight if he was seriously injured if he was ordered to fight and protect Charlie and the hotel.
I do think he's at the hotel because of whoever owns his soul, but I don't think it's why he fought or why he helped Charlie get Cannibal Town to aid them through his connection to Rosie.
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And the last one that I was asked about was the idea that the demons had to be fighting for love like Carmilla said to Vaggie to defeat the angels and the reason Alastor didn't win was because he was fighting purely for his own interests. Freedom, power, and control.
And, while I think the base idea of this is really interesting (This is a genuinely cool idea!) and could challenge Alastor's more selfish motivations, the show itself doesn't really back this up.
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Charlie is the literal embodiment of fighting to protect those she cares about-- she has the biggest heart out of anyone at the hotel-- and yet she doesn't defeat anyone in this battle.
Before she faces Adam all she uses is a shield to protect herself and the other residents. She apologizes to those she hits, while Vaggie finishes them off. When she does face Adam she doesn't beat him. She gets in a good hit, but she isn't able to finish him off. She would have been killed if Lucifer didn't step in.
Plus, Alastor's shield killed multiple exorcists before Adam destroyed it, so I don't think this means he hasn't grown to care about the residents of the hotel or that there wasn't some part of him that was fighting to protect them.
Now to expand on my own thoughts now that I've answered the questions I've gotten, it's not just the final battle/fallout that brought me to believe he had come to care about the hotel and its residents.
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The show itself seems to want us to think he is starting to grow “accustomed” (In Alastor’s words to Niffty) to the group with little moments that are played straight like when he sends Mimzy (possibly his oldest friend) away, telling her she can stay if she truly wants to try for redemption, but if she just wants to put the hotel in danger then she has to leave.
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When he says he believes in Charlie and wants to mentor her in cannibal town. He even gives her his microphone which is a literal extension of himself to help her.
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When he talks to Niffty (who he is clearly fond of) and admits he finds the group enjoyable to be around. He says he could grow accustomed to them after Niffty says she really likes them almost in agreement with her.
There is no sinister undertone or hint of the usual facade Alastor puts on in these scenes.
Like I said above I don't think that the fact that Alastor has come to care about the residents is the only factor in his breakdown or the only reason he fought in the first place (Alastor's blatant overconfidence in his fight against Adam makes it clear pride was a factor. That overconfidence is why he lost that battle). It's a combination of multiple things (his pride, loss of control, desire for freedom, etc), but I do think it's a valid reading that it was a part of it considering all the information the show has given us.
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This isn't to say I think Alastor is going to melt and be a team player for the hotel from now on. In fact, I think he's going to lash out against this internal change.
Alastor has always put himself first and in the finale he almost died trying to protect this hotel and it's rattled him. It's challenged his entire self-perception. He doesn’t like that it’s being challenged. That he’s losing control of himself on top of the situation around him. So, he doubles down on his initial goals.
I think this internal conflict is fascinating. I wouldn't have written so much about it if I didn't. I genuinely can't wait to see what they do with it in season 2.
If you feel differently feel free to send an ask, message, or respond to this post. I'd love to hear what other people think! Differing views and connections to characters is what makes media so impactful and fun to consume.
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gayagendaofficial · 2 years
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hey uhhh. why the FUCK would you write the headline like that? like in 2015 you didn't see headlines like "the US sent gay people to conversion camps and had them lobotomized, now its Supreme Court is legalizing same-sex marriage." Cuba is on the verge of doing something amazing, meanwhile the US is facing a wave of homophobia and transphobia and a group of unelected judges can just decide to take the country back decades to the time of sodomy laws. then again, i'm not surprised that the Washington Post would write an article about a socialist country in the global south like this 🙄
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shitpostingkats · 1 year
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Why did it take me until todays episode to realize how hysterical this entire show is from Kyutaro’s point of view
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transmascutena · 3 months
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some thoughts on photography and memory in utena:
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on the wall in nemuro memorial hall, there are pictures of real people. i'm not sure who they are, but i assume they're of people involved in making the show. either way, they're obviously not real; in the close-up shots of them, they change into pictures of the black rose duelists and other imagery from the show. i imagine it's there as a fun detail by the creators, but also to show how weird and inconsistent reality itself is in the black rose arc.
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as for the black rose duel images themselves, it's possible that they are literal as i've talked about in a previous post, but what i think is more likely, is that utena noticing them is a visual representation of her connecting the dots of what's really been going on in this arc.
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when mikage brings up the idea of memories and eternity, we see the picture on the wall behind utena, of her at her parents funeral. and behind mikage we see one of his own defining memories.
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a pretty clear line is being drawn between memory and photographs. in fact, memories are so important to mikage that photographs are his black rose duel symbol. it's the one he keeps of mamiya and tokiko, altered to look like anthy's disguise, just like his memories are. through mikage we see both how memories of the past can keep you trapped in it, as well as the malleability of these memories. let's look at everybody else:
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saionji has a framed photograph of him and touga as kids on his desk. he values their friendship, or at least the memory of how it used to be. he idealizes the time touga was less cruel (or maybe just the time saionji wasn't aware of his cruelty.)
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miki doesn't have any literal photographs of kozue or the sunlit garden, though his memories of them are often framed as such. he also keeps a picture of anthy amidst his sheet music. she is his idealized memory now.
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juri has the locket of course, inside of which is a cutout of shiori from a picture captured in the moment that ends up defining their entire relationship. is this the version of shiori that juri idealizes? not really, but she is fixated on her resentment of shiori's percieved cruelty, just not the cruelty of taking the boy away. juri keeps this photograph closer than anybody else does with theirs, but she also keeps it hidden. this could mean she treasures her memories the most out of everyone, and is also the least open about it, although i'm not sure i believe the first part.
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nanami has the photo-album of her and touga; she idealizes her relationship with him, as well as their childhood. when she makes the connection that touga is adopted, the photos are scattered all over her bed, probably to represent her emotional state.
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touga doesn't keep any photographs from what we see, which makes sense with everything we know about him. unlike the rest of the council, he doesn't have any idealized memories of his childhood. but he does use akio's camera, so let's talk about that.
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the camera is, much like the car, a tool that only akio is shown to own (although, wakaba does mention a photography club in episode 34.) like the car, it is used to facilitate his grooming (specifically of touga and saionji when he takes those shirtless pictures with them.) and, also like the car, he offers to lend it to touga, to make him feel more like an equal part of the whole thing. unlike the car though, touga accepts the camera.
the photoshoot scene in episode 37 has a transition where the camera shutter sound effect is played over the previous scene. over the shot of utena and anthy holding hands after confiding in each other about akio. i think it's to show that he's always watching, and that they can never truly be free of him as long as they're in ohtori.
i think it also shows the idea of akio framing the narrative of the show as a whole. he plays a sort of director role in it, in that he directs the events happening, as well as how they're portrayed. it's no coincidence that he is quite literally behind the "camera" in episode 33. like the car, a symbol of akio's power and sexual abuse (which is not-coincidentally also present in all of the photoshoot scenes,) his camera (his narrative, his biased framing of events) is ever-present.
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and then there's the most important photograph in the show, the frame it all ends on. the picture utena and anthy took together is, unlike every other photograph, used as a look into their future. the reason they take it in the first place is because utena realizes she has no photos of anthy, which distresses her, presumably because she worries that their friendship might not last forever, and she wants something to remember anthy by. this obviously comes with the risk of making anthy an idealized memory, like every other person put in a photograph in this show, but instead it ends up as a symbol for their love. akio may have set up the camera, but anthy (with the help of chu-chu) manipulated their positions so her and utena could hold hands. she also cuts akio out of the frame, much like she cuts him out of her life in the last episode. she doesn't want his presence to tarnish her and utena's memory anymore (although he isn't completely gone from the photograph either, as he will never truly be forgotten.)
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meowzet · 20 days
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i adore the aspec community and how normal they are about sex.
regardless of your own personal stance [whether youre sex repulsed, favourable, etc.], fellow aspecs have always been so sex positive. i cherish seeing that.
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astralwukong · 6 months
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Blake blushing because of Yang (im madly in love with you edition) ✨
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boygirltreehouse · 5 months
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cass cain is so emotive and I hate that so many of yall fall straight into the stoic asian woman stereotype thing because like, the only reason cass wouldn't vocalize a feeling is when she would struggle to find the word for it because she literally wasn't taught how to speak. that's so fucking upsetting. She has such big beautiful emotions, she feels so deeply about the littlest things but everytime she has trouble putting it into words she's reminded that she was conceived not to. her abuser did not have her feelings or her pain in mind, only how well she could end a life. can you fucking imagine
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just-an-enby-lemon · 7 months
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"The Mechanisms were Jonathan Sims college band" and "Jon is the secret real past of Jonny D'ville" are both great takes but I present "Jon's descend into an unwilling antichirst figure is The Mecs new album and Jonny plays him in the songs because they just have very similar voices for some reason."
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nyipi · 3 months
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Alastor was all over the place in ep 5. I dont know why he was already so pissed off at Lucifer's arrival and so quick to be provoked. Idk if it's a problem with the show's pacing or if it's a hint at the nature of Alastor's disappearance/own soul being under contract. Because the writers DID put this topic at the forefront this episode so i can only assume it's all connected.
My personal take is Lilith has him leashed and Alastor HATES not having his own freedom, and by association he hates the living fuck out of Lucifer. (He doesn't seem to hate Charlie at least or have grown to stand by her dreams)
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