#slbp suzuki magoichi

[samurailoveballadhistory]

I’ve made a few posts about the Saika people before, but I’m going to try to make a more coherent summary here. I hope you would still go back and look at them (especially if you’re new here) for the minute details, though. 

In summary: 1) Claim 1 (screenshot 1): The Saika are not just ragtag mercenaries who sell their services to anyone --> True 2) Claim 2 (screenshot 2): The Saika-ikki are “united” --> False 3) Claim 3 (screenshot 3 & 4): The Saika are upstanding men of honour --> Not really

As usual, the stuff in the story are just “fluff” for the sake of otome game purposes, so I’m not saying that this is bad/misinformation/lying to you/whatever because this is fiction. Just don’t assume this narrative as fact. 

One of the main things I want to react here is that the Saika is not this one big group that are all loyal to Magoichi. They’re not really a monolith, like how you can’t just lump all “people of Iga” into just one group. This was something I had wanted to discuss back when Magoichi first showed up, but I guess I just didn’t.

Magoichi is one of the many “minor lords” living in the Saika. They’re usually collectively called the “Saika-ikki” or “Saika-shuu” (these two terms may or may not actually refer to different things, but we’ll leave that for now) because they do often operate together. However, each clan are their own distinct entity, and they will split up and fight each other if they really must. 

As they are indeed samurai lords, yes, they “aren’t just mercenaries”. They have castles, they have fiefs, citizenry and the whole lot, just like any other samurai do. They just agree to lend their armies to other lords for money and not because of particular submissiveness or alliance to the other party.

This is why it’s not like they’re “noble rogues”. They’re samurai, so they would only take deals that are either true to their convictions, or beneficial to their clan. For example, the previous events mentioned the Saika being allied to Honganji (see the links above). This is true, and this is the “conviction” part. They live somewhat near the main Ishiyama temple, and so a lot of them are part of the faith. However, half of them then thought “this is doing us not much good”, so they ran off and switched sides to the Oda (Magoichi is one of them). This is the “benefit” part.

The other half still stuck to their guns, though. 10 clans surrendered to Nobunaga in 1577, but in 1578 there’s a correspondence letter from the remaining Saika clans with Kennyo discussing ammunition for the continued fight against Oda.

#Suzuki Magoichi #Saika Ikki #trivia #slbp #samurai love ballad party

[daeva-agas]

Hey, Daeva, So is that a scar or a tattoo under Magoichis eye?

I could've sworn I once saw someone say that it was a feather-shaped tattoo, but I can't find it. Maybe I misremembered it, or IDK. Maybe Twitter search function is just stupid when it comes to searching for non-alphabet text.

#anon ask #slbp #suzuki magoichi

[cyllux-the-imaginary]

i don’t know who he is and, honestly, i don’t care. I just need his main route, like, yesterday

#voltage inc #slbp #slbp event story #samurai love ballad party #slbp nobunaga #oda nobunaga #slbp suzuki magoichi

[daeva-agas]

I am playing Sakuya route in SLBP (mostly for the reward) and I wonder, where Nobunaga hatred toward ninjas comes from? This is like the 3rd game where he shows his disdain towards them. Can you explain why? Because I'm curious.

Oh no, it's that thing again.

Remind me what are the other ones. Is it Ninja Love? Nightshade? Non-otome games?

Anyway, this is a huge rant and IDK, could clog up people's dash so I will put it behind a cut.

I probably shouldn't say these about Japanese people writing about their own history and legends, but I hate this stupid "Nobunaga hates ninjas" trope, so my very grumpy answer is:

BECAUSE STUFFY CORPORATE SUITS ARE SO TERRIFIED OF CHANGE AND CAN'T BE ASSED TO TRY NEW THINGS. IF BULLSHIT TROPES STILL MAKE MONEY, THEN BY GOD THEY WILL KEEP MAKING IT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.

And I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that they're doing this because "it's a trope that people seems to like", and not because they're just running off "I saw it in an anime/manga/novel/movie once" and never bother to Yahoo search it or open a book about it.

(I'm not all that mad anymore, but like, I will still go AAAAAAAAAAA every time it comes up)

"Nobunaga hates ninja" is a long-standing trope that's been around for decades in Japan. The oldest one I was able to find is this movie series called "Shinobi no Mono". Maybe there's something older, I don't know.

It's a historical fact that the Oda did invade Iga. However, there is so many context for it. Among many other things... one record says it's actually the people of Iga who sicced Nobunaga ON THE PROVINCE THEMSELVES.

It ended up being transformed into a "Nobunaga hates ninja" plotline because the above historical fact is being combined with the long-standing legend that "Iga is a place where ninjas live".

Also, in the 60s and 70s there’s this like... movement where people are really disgruntled at the government, and so because they can’t flat out write works about how much they hate the Japanese government of the time, they just write stuff about peasant heroes or vigilantes fighting against evil samurai lords as a way to vent their frustrations. Nobunaga being one of the easiest character to caricaturise because it’s not like the “evil stuff” they make him do is entirely wrong. The facts are just taken out of context and twisted for the sake of fiction. Evil/demonic/horrible Nobunaga as a trope in general seems to be relatively new from this era too, since Edo and Meiji works seems to present Nobunaga is an admirable heroic figure.

(well, they wrote about him doing kinda mean things, but it’s presented in a way that makes it sound like the writers think it’s “something that just happens” and not a big deal/not an entirely negative thing)

In real life there is no such thing as "sekrit ninjer village uwu", so honestly, if the above account is true, then it's possible that there's in-fighting among the people of Iga. It's what happens with the Saika people. Suzuki (Saika) Magoichi surrendered to Nobunaga and then some time later makes a request for the Oda army to come in and destroy this one guy he really hates.

If the story about the Iga folks inviting Nobunaga in themselves is actually false, I’ve not seen any other explanation for it yet, but I still think Nobunaga invading Iga is just business as usual. At the time of the Iga invasion, the surrounding provinces are already conquered, leaving Iga as this one tiny hole in the middle of what is technically "Oda territory". Maybe Nobunaga thinks this hostile province could cause problems in the surrounding regions, so he wants them gone. It's no different than, say, Nobunaga fighting a war against the Takeda and conquering them.

It's not even Nobunaga in command of the army (as far as reliable records go), so any depiction of Nobunaga personally leading his army into Iga is garbage. He sent one of his sons and a few generals to go off and fight, while he himself only comes in for inspection after everything's cleaned up.

The standard reasoning in bullshit Sengoku trope/fiction is that Nobu just doesn't trust woo woo shit, and only wants to do things the "legit" way (with soldiers and stuff). Ninja is considered woo woo because of their “secret arts”, and because they’re usually depicted as having no lords/masters but themselves, I guess he is wary of them rebelling against him or something.

Funny thing is, even if you actually buy into the ninjas thing, supposedly even the “guidebook of ninjas”, the Bansenshukai, says that the Oda has ninjas, so “Nobunaga hates ninjas” is just silly all around. Bansenshukai is this book supposedly detailing ninja clans and secret techniques and whatever, written in the 1600s, by one of the Fujibayashi descendants (IDK Sakuya’s grandkids I guess) 

#anon ask #ask reply #reply #it's that thing #sengoku

[samurailoveballadhistory]

This is a bamboo shield (竹束 taketaba):

According to the Koyo Gunkan, these bamboo shields were invented by Takeda vassal Yonekura Shigetsugu (other sources say his name is Munetsugu). In a battle against Murakami Yoshikiyo (this person), the Takeda who has never seen guns was helpless under gunfire. Yonekura then had the idea to gather bamboo that were growing nearby, and bundle them up. The bundle’s thickness was able to withstand the bullets, and the Takeda turned the tides.

Legend says that the Saika’s “rolled bamboo shells” was essentially a grenade launcher. I forgot to take a screenshot of this event in the Japanese app, but according to this article it’s called 焙烙火矢 hourokukaya. The description says that it’s smaller bullets packed into a bigger shell together with gun powder. This is then attached to a bamboo shaft, and then shot from either a gun or a rudimentary cannon. 

This is a legend, and I have no idea what the original documentation is called. The article linked unfortunately did not cite their source. Trying to Google this further only turned up a manga, and trying to Google the names from the manga turns up absolutely nothing. Maybe it’s not even real, who knows. The name and description is similar to the actually-existing bou-biya 棒火矢, a rocket-like explosive that was invented somewhere around the 1590s. 

Minor detail, but since legend says the one who invented the shield-busting shells is just “Suzuki Magoichi”, we might not actually know who this is.

As I wrote in my previous post, there are more than one person who go by the name “Suzuki Magoichi”. This is because it’s the common courtesy in those era to write someone’s name as “surname + alias (”middle name”)” or “surname + official title” in paperwork. It’s not very common that the actual given name is written. So if a document has the name “Suzuki Magoichi”, it’s very hard to tell which one is this referring to. 

The article said it was “Magoichi son of Suzuki Sadayuu”. All of the known Magoichis have somewhat unclear parentage. The person who fought Nobunaga is Suzuki Magoichi Shigehide. His (possibly adopted) son Suzuki Magoichi Shigetomo later became one of Hideyoshi’s gun captains. See why this is very confusing?

Since it’s vague, it’s very fair game for fiction writers to use all the Magoichis interchangeably. 

#suzuki magoichi #event route #story event #Saika Ikki #slbp #samurai love ballad party

[samurailoveballadhistory]

Yay! His name is Suzuki, not “Saika Magoichi”! 

See, his moniker is often written as “Saika Magoichi” in games and such, but it’s more of a place signifier. AS you can see from the name Saika ikki, “Saika” is a place. It’s like how some would refer to Kennyo as “Honganji Kennyo”. “Honganji” is not Kennyo’s name, it’s where he’s from. Saika Magoichi is “Magoichi who is from Saika”.

Just to be clear, since I’m not sure if that’s a misleading translation or a misunderstanding from the original writer’s part: The “title” is “Magoichi”. “Suzuki” is just a regular surname. It’s not a title of anything. I’ve wrote other Saika posts with more details, but in short, the Suzuki is more or less a samurai clan like any other. Maybe a bit rustic, more of the jizamurai sort rather than the “metropolitan” types like the others, but a samurai nonetheless. 

“Magoichi” has been said to be a “title” used by the leader of the Saika in various fiction, but it could have been something that got confused in time. It might actually just be a hereditary alias in the family. It’s not a unique practice,  after all. The Hattori also supposedly did the same and has the clan heads all use “Hanzo” as their alias (”middle name”). The same with the 15 or so Kojuros in the Katakura house. Katakura Kojuro Kagetsuna and his successors supposedly all use “Kojuro” as their alias, and they just have different given names. 

At any rate, this is what makes identifying the various “Suzuki Magoichis” in documents rather difficult. There’s no other official titles appended, so it’s unclear which person is which. Recently, this particular one that fought Nobunaga has been identified as “Suzuki Shigehide”. Perhaps more documentation will turn up eventually.

#saika ikki #suzuki magoichi #story event #slbp #samurai love ballad party #event route

[samurailoveballadhistory]

I suspect this event is a case of two battles being lumped into one. The part discussing the Honganji and the Saika-ikki’s involvement is the 1576 invasion to Honganji, where the Oda forces initially met trouble because of the Saika’s gunmen. However, the resolution of the event is the surrender of the Saika forces, which is a completely different battle that happens in the next year, 1577. 

If you remember, in a past event Araki Murashige eventually turned traitor. That happens later on, in 1578.

I don’t know if the translation is flawed, or if the original story is rather misleading. The Saika-ikki is not a random mass of rebels that spring up in “several areas”. The Saika-ikki are people from Saika, period. They may be mercenaries, but they’re also a proper community, with clan lords and castles. They’re also not a singular monolith of people. There’s multiple clans in the Saika, and they sometimes fight each other.

They’re believed to be mainly mercenaries for the Hatakeyama clan. Under Hatakeyama Akitaka, who was an ally to the Oda, some of the Saika were fighting to assist the Oda forces. However, Akitaka perished, and the Saika independently chose to join forces with the Honganji. Some texts identify the Saika as not just allies, but actually part of the Ikko-ikki. It appears that a sizeable bulk of the Saika community are believers of the Jodo Shinshu. 

In the spinoff anime in the Tenka Touitsu Koi no Ran/SLBP universe, we’re introduced to 4 members of Suzuki Magoichi’s forces. They’re identified as allies of the Takeda. They have a short special story in the Japanese app, but that story has not been made available in English. 

#event route #araki murashige #saika ikki