#sorry grrm he MY character now

[melrosing]

Do you have any thoughts on the Azor Ahai prophecy?

sorry this took a while, I haven't really written much about this in the past so I don't have the relevant shit to hand in the same way. but my thoughts under the cut; conscious this is a contentious issue, so whilst I'm happy to chat about it, pls be normal if engaging.

I think it’s Jon. That doesn’t really get me excited or make me feel anything tbh, I guess because Jon is my least favourite major POV and the Azor Ahai prophecy isn’t one that interests me a whole lot. But I think the only real candidates for Azor Ahai are Jon and Dany, and based on both narrative structure and evidence within the story, I feel fairly confident it’s Jon.

Ofc, the argument for Dany being AA is strong and I think that’s the point. She ticks all the boxes, indeed more than Jon currently does, and the birth of her dragons is pretty much the most fantastic event in the story. She’ll surely have a huge role in ending the Long Night too, so Dany really does fit the bill.

But imo the structure of the story, and of their own personal arcs, favours Jon. I’ll quickly go through why I don’t think it favours Dany.

First off, rules of three: I think it was GRRM’s editor who told us that he likes rules of three in his writing. He makes you think one thing is true, then appears to provide the true solution, before the real answer emerges later on and completely throws you. There are lots of examples of GRRM using this technique in ASOIAF, but let’s go for another example that directly concerns Jon himself: the question of who his mother is.

The first answer we get is a basic one: Ned got Jon on a sex worker, and that’s that. We already know that’s near certainly not the case, because consciously or subconsciously we know that’s not how stories work. Second answer, Jon was born of an affair between Ned and Ashara. This idea is more interesting, has more supporting evidence, and we come across other characters who claim it’s true, like Edric. But still, I think a lot of people (even if they didn’t know R+L=J) would think that still doesn’t feel like the end of it. The closure has come too soon, and it doesn’t have the surprise factor that we know it’s supposed to have. It’s just clean.

Then of course the true answer is one that we still haven’t learnt yet: Ned isn’t even Jon’s father, and his mother is Lyanna, and Jon is the ‘true heir to the 7K’ etc etc etc. I think we’re all extremely used to this information now, but apart from the overwhelming evidence, we accept it because narratively it makes sense. This is the secret third thing, where everything clicks into place in a surprising way and has massive implications for the rest of the story. Rule of three. 

I think the same applies to Azor Ahai. First, we’re told it’s Stannis. He ticks most of the boxes, albeit in a really haphazard way, but we know it’s not Stannis because we know how stories work. Then we’re presented with Dany as the answer. This seems to add up really well: she ticks the boxes far more literally - smoke, salt, bleeding star - and characters like Aemon are convinced it’s Dany.

But I think we run into the same problem here as we do with Ashara. The closure’s come too soon, everything fits too neatly, and honestly it lacks the surprise factor. Dany may be a surprise Azor Ahai to the rest of her world, but she isn’t to the reader: we’ve seen what she’s capable of, and if we were told that Dany is going to save the world, most good faith readers would be like ‘well yeah if anyone’s gonna do it’. And so ironically, that’s how you start to get the feeling it isn’t Dany. It sounds painfully self-contradictory, yeah, but it’s the same as it works with Ashara. Consciously or subconsciously, we know how stories work.

So Jon is the third answer. Jon is intended as the surprise, where he didn’t even seem like a contender, is really just some guy. Except he isn’t. To make sense of this, you really have to forget how obvious R+L=J seems to all of us now, bc time and again GRRM has said he didn’t intend it as obvious, and actually seems a bit frustrated how many people had worked it out - even before the show got to make the reveal. 

Pasting at this juncture the key details of the prophecy:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. DAVOS III, ASOS

So Jon is descended from Jaehaerys II and Shaera, as the Ghost of High Heart said TPTWP would be. He is indeed a prince, even if he doesn’t know it. When Melisandre looked for Stannis as TPTWP in the flames, she saw ‘snow’. Jon’s story is the one that most directly concerns the fight against TLN; Dany currently has the potential for the most impact, yes, but at the moment she has absolutely no idea what’s going on beyond the wall, and it’s Jon trying to unite the 7K against the Others. This makes him the strongest thematic fit for the hero who will ultimately end TLN.

Then we have the fact that there are two major things about Jon’s story that have to mean something. 1: Jon is the ‘true heir’ to the 7K, the one no one saw coming, that everyone thought was a nobody. Jon was born of the union between Rhaegar and Lyanna that only a dead man and Howland fucking Reed (likely a man with his own knowledge about the TLN, the Children and the Others) know about. Jon was the child Rhaegar somehow knew he had to have (the ethics of that aside…), that made him realise the prophecy wasn’t about him but someone else. Within the story of ASOIAF, this is seismic. It’s no good to say that Jon’s true heritage is nothing more than a political subplot, that’s not how stories work and it’s certainly not how GRRM writes.

And 2: Jon is going to be fucking resurrected. No, he’s not the first character to come back - Beric and Catelyn both got there before him. But if there’s one thing we can be sure of, Jon is coming back for a reason. We saw how ridiculous it is in the show for Jon to just come back to life and get on with everything like normal. Everyone was asking well why the fuck did he need to die in the first place then. To give him an excuse to leave the Night’s Watch? lol. Nah Jon is going to be reborn for a specific reason. Cannot emphasise enough that it is not GRRM’s style to kill Jon for nothing more than dramatic effect.

And who is going to rebirth him? Melisandre. What is the significance of Melisandre? Fucking everything. Melisandre has not been placed at the Wall to get the prophecy wrong AGAIN. She has been placed at the Wall because that is where the answer is. If Jon is the POV most focused on the TLN and the Others, Melisandre is the POV most focused on the AA prophecy. She is the one trying desperately to solve it, and whose revelation we are awaiting because once again, that’s how stories work: we know that Melisandre is wrong right now, so we anticipate the moment she will be right.

So Melisandre seeing ‘snow’ in her flames means something. Melisandre’s weird connection to Jon means something. Melisandre being the one who, seemingly without knowing it, has been preparing Jon for rebirth since about halfway through ADWD - means something also. R’hllorism and its weird connection to the AA prophecy means something. Melisandre and Ghost both having red eyes, with all the rest in mind, also seems to mean something.

Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. JON VI, ADWD

And right there’s the fact that Melisandre is the ‘red star of the prophecy’. Everyone thinks it’s the red comet, which we see identified in the ACOK prologue as the ‘bleeding star’ named in the AA prophecy. You know who’s also introduced in that chapter. Fuckin Melisandre. Melisandre and the ruby she wears are alternately described as ‘red’ and ‘star’ - sometimes both together:

Melisandre's ruby glowed like a red star at her throat. DAVOS VI, ASOS

So here’s Melisandre, red as hell, explaining the prophecy. Notice how much she herself seems to embody the imagery of the prophecy - red, flames, blood, burning, etc.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." DAVOS I, ACOK

So we come to the ‘bleeding/red star’ aspect of the prophecy. Smoke and salt are easy enough to come by, but a star is a more specific requirement. As is a birth (or rebirth). Dany seemed to tick these boxes with the smoke of the pyre, the great salt sea, the birth of her dragons/her figurative rebirth, and the red comet. 

But I think the bleeding/red star is more likely Melisandre and/or her rubies. How either end up bleeding I can’t say, but it’s not hard to imagine. Does Melisandre destroy her ruby to revive Jon, or use her own blood? Maybe she has to die to do it, leaving Jon none the fucking wiser when he awakens what her reason for reviving him even was. That would be fitting: I think Jon won't understand his own significance for some time yet.

Either way, we have our star: Melisandre has been looking everywhere for one, never knowing it was she herself. This is actually a great beat for Mel’s story - for all the times she’s appeared all knowing, she was missing the woods for the trees, and her own significance in it all. It’s tragic, too, because that revelation is perhaps also one of her own demise.

(sidenote: I also think it's more fitting [and more likely] that the decision to burn Shireen and indeed the idea to do it is Stannis' own. in desperation, he attempts to fulfil what he recalls of Melisandre's methods, but butchers everything in doing so.)

Next we need smoke and salt, and as mentioned, those are straightforward. We’ve been told the Wall has plenty of salt lol, and light a few candles and you’ve got smoke - not to mention Melisandre loves a bit of fire, so figures there will be smoke involved in Jon’s rebirth either way. So salt and smoke both sound like pretty standard ingredients for a resurrection, I don’t think it’s much worth elaborating.

Then what’s left? ‘A birth/rebirth a day after a long summer’, check, we’re told again and again through ADWD that we’re on the brink of winter. This is actually a box Jon ticks that Dany does not, because her rebirth took place during the summer. Weird technicality but the fact remains. Anyway, ‘When the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world’, check again - Jon is right there on the scene. 

The flaming sword comes after the rebirth, but it’s a given that Jon will wield one - it’s right there in his dreams:

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. ADWD, JON XII

(another sidenote: look, a song of ice and fire. I’m aware that GRRM has previously stated that Dany’s fire and the battle against the others are the titular ice and fire, because he’s sure not going to say ‘by the way it’s also Jon’ when he hasn’t revealed anything about Jon yet. But we know that Rhaegar anticipates a child who embodies ‘the song of ice and fire’, and you cannot associate Dany with ice. Dany IS fire.)

I think Jon probably already has Lightbringer, and it’s Longclaw - we see that Ghost is tied in with the red of it all, and who is atop the sword but Ghost. Valyrian steel obviously also has some fantastical role still to play, and it’s notable that Jaime envisions he and Brienne also wielding flaming Valyrian swords (their flames are blue, of course, and Jaime doesn’t know in the dream that the blades are Valyrian, but the point stands that there’s some connection between flaming swords and Valyrian steel going on, and that that all ties to TLN).

So all that’s really left is to wake dragons from stone. This is one where I can’t really guess what it’ll mean - my best guess is that Jon will find dragonsteel at Dragonstone, because even if he did somehow hatch further dragons they’d be damn babies for the duration of the Long Night, but really this part could point to something we can’t yet guess at, so whatever.

And finally, there’s Jon’s heritage. The Targaryens are tied to the wielding of fire, to Valyrian steel, and to dragons. The Starks are tied to winter, to the Wall, to the old gods and the North. Jon’s heritage is representative of the two forces that need to unite to overcome the Others. 

I don’t want to get into how exactly Jon ties into the mythos of the Night King and what undead Jon might look like, because whilst there’s plenty in there that no doubt ALSO supports the prophecy, I freely admit I just haven’t looked into it all that much bc it’s not a passion point for me, so I'm not going to seriously try. But we do have this part from Benerro's prophecy:

death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her [referring to Dany as TPTWP] cause shall be reborn... ADWD, TYRION VI

You can make this really figurative to get it to work for Dany, but it would make a lot more sense for Jon. He'll rise from the dead (death itself will bend the knee) and 'all those who die fighting in [TPTWP's] cause shall be reborn' - hey just like the Others are. Is Jon somehow going to have his own army of the undead? Possibly.

So, cumulatively:

Jon will unite ice and fire, armoured in ice and wielding a flaming sword

Jon’s Stark and Targaryen heritage are figuratively significant

Rhaegar foresaw the significance of Jon. Rhaegar has been wrong in a lot in all senses of the word, but I think he’s going to be right on this point - on ONE fucking point

Jon will be reborn a day after winter comes

Jon will be reborn beneath a bleeding red star

Plenty of scope for salt and smoke to be involved

Jon will wield a flaming red sword

Jon will be on the ground as darkness approaches and lead the charge against it

Jon will make death bend the knee

Jon may lead an army of the 'reborn'

Melisandre is the POV with the greatest fixation on the Azor Ahai prophecy, and Melisandre is beginning to realise the significance of Jon + will be responsible for bringing him back

Jon is the Secret Third Thing

etc etc 

And finally, bc I’ve seen many, many heated arguments over this, I want to establish some things myself before signing off:

I am engaging in good faith here. I have come to these conclusions through reading the books and considering all sides, and think this is a very legitimate reading of the text

This resolution to the prophecy is not something I am invested in. Jon hardly makes my top 20 characters in ASOIAF, and Azor Ahai is not a prophecy I crave an answer for. I’m a lot more interested the southern storylines (in case you couldn't tell)

Dany, meanwhile, is a character I like about five times as much as I like Jon. I’ve not reached the conclusion I have because I think she’s not capable of being AA (currently, I think she’s a whole lot more capable than Jon). I’m only judging based on where I think the story and evidence gestures

I agree that there’s potentially problematic subtext in introducing Dany, a young girl who subverts the typical ‘chosen boy’ narrative by fighting every adversity to be a hero for the ages, [edit - forgot the other half of the sentence orz] only to say actually nah it was special boy Jon all along. It’s difficult to say exactly how egregious I’m going to find it when that comes to be because I don’t have the material to judge, but I fully understand why people find the idea of Jon Snow as AA such a deeply frustrating idea, and I may well share in that frustration when it comes to it

Again: I’m engaging in good faith, so if you want to discuss, please afford me the same. We are discussing a fantasy series

#ask #jon snow #azor ahai #asoiaf #melisandre of asshai

[dracodazaii]

im sorry but i can never be a lyanna stan guys.

just lemme explain.

obviously this is only if she willingly went w rhaegar

To begin with, the situation in its simplest form is that Rhaegar and Elia are married, amicable yet not in love, and Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna, causing chaos to ensue amongst the realm.

Even if no war occured and everything was fine, how can Lyanna try to justify running away with a married man, especially on the way to her brothers wedding which feels very selfish, even if Brandon didn’t want to marry Cat, like she still ruined their wedding day.

Not to mention, that running with Rhaegar meant that shes inserted herself into his marriage which is Elia’s place. How nonsensical it is to run away with a married man and somehow marry him!

There’s two routes people go to justify it, and I’ll explain why I think they suck:

1) E-R-L is a polygamous marriage: This is not appeasable to the realm at all! Nobody will accept that. The only reason Aegon+Rhaenys+Visenya were accepted was because they were conquering Westeros, and like you can’t say shit about the guys conquering you!! Also the Targs were on thin ice then, and Maegor also tried, and look what happened afterwards!

2) E-R was annulled and R-L are married: I don’t think this is reasonable at all. Considering that Rhaegar is only HEIR, just like Daemon, for example. Both wanted annulments and both need the permission from the King and/or High Septon, but also considering how the likes of Aegon IV couldn’t annul his own marriage, do you really think a measly heir could?! At least in Daemon’s situation, he had no children, but as Aegon IV and Rhaegar both had kids (Elia giving birth twice in 3 years) theres no grounds for annulment, and it would disinherit his children potentially anyway, or even start a second Dance. As soon as you have a second wife, whether polygamous, annulled or dead first wife, war will be almost inevitable between the potential heirs.

Also Ik its not possible.. but can we stop with the E/R/L shipping in a serious manner (crackship is fine but in canon is 😐)

Like genuinely thinking mid-20s Elia would want to romance a 14 year old girl, would be fine with her husband romancing said 14 year old, or join in together, is so crazy to me. Like, yes Rhaegar is very much in the pedo-realm but why would Elia also follow suit??!

And like not to be a huge Robert Baratheon stan here (i hate GOT era him) but you can’t deny that it is the rebellion+it’s repercussions on his life, that change him so heavily into this twisted abusive, pedo man. He was not a great guy pre-rebellion, he slept around, was loud and rowdy, but I feel like you can’t really say that Lyanna somehow predicted that he would be this abusive evil man, tbh it seems like she just disliked his promiscuity which is valid, but in doing the same to Elia, her point gets invalidated in my eyes.

Also next point is the age-situation.

Now i know that obviously in a real life situation, a 14 year old girl is at no blame for the groomer actions of the adult…. however just look at how GRRM perceives this. like not as an “oh medieval girls married at 14, its fine” because they were still mentally children… but i mean how GRRM perceives relationships akin to R-L and characters by Lyannas age in ASOIAF-verse.

Ok so GRRM thinks R-L is romantic, which means that the groomer undertones aren’t necessarily meant to be there, and its meant to be more of a Romeo-Juliet situation (which heavily fucked over Romeos girl Rosaline ie Elia). He also believes Dany-Drogo and San-San is healthy, so I don’t think age heavily affects characters romantic feeling and actions much then.

Then if we see character Lyanna’s age, they’re treated as adults (yes some do have child impulses but overall adults). You have Robb acting impulsively like a kid, but ultimately being treated as an adult and being killed. I feel like even though they have kid impulses, they’re meant to get adult consequences for their actions.

Also ages as a whole is fucked up in ASOIAF in comparison to real world, like you have baby Rickon Stark going feral in Skagos, you have 3 year old Joffrey Velaryon/Strong squaring up to Aemond, and you even have 11 year old Benjicott Blackwood being an absolute beast of a warrior when in the real-world, he’d be just a kid, useless in defence.

#asoiaf #game of thrones #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna stark bashing #elia martell #rhaegar targaryen #rhaegar targaryen bashing #lyanna stark #a song of ice and fire #got #elia martell deserved better

[lemonhemlock]

The thing I have also noticed about targies is that they not only refuse to engage with the historical precedents of a pseudo medieval world, but they admit that for them the magic is the main appeal for of HOTD/ASOIAF.....which is incredibly bizarre to me because Martin, whether intentionally or not, has thrown the more magical elements of the story to the wayside, in order to focus on the human socio-political drama in both ASOIAF and Fire and Blood. ASOIAF, in general, is very 'low fantasy' there is very little magic, the magic that is there is not thoroughly explained, and the Others, the big bad of the series, has been mentioned approximately three times over five books and 25 years. The magic is essentially a plot device and not even a device that Martin particularly likes to use lmaoo.

Anyway this hyper focus on magic and the inability to see what GRRM is doing with magic - it's not the solution it's the problem - is a big reason the fandom is so....off in their predictions. Like, the dragons are not saviors, there is no prophesied savior, etc.

This is why targies are always harping on how there is no way for Sansa to be QITN or even go back to Winterfell because she lost her 'MaGIcAL ConNeCTioN' when Lady was offed - as if I'm supposed to give a fuck about direwolves or what the fuck 'warging' is lmaooo when there are vastly more interesting human dramas and political plots playing out in the series.

Conversely, this is why King Bran as Martin's endgame is so stupid imo lmao. He's giving a magical solution for a political human drama that he's been setting up for five books and has not done enough to build up the importance of magic in the series. Like, I'm sorry but a seven year old all seeing Tree Wizard Warlock as King of the 7K is an absolutely hilarious endgame and makes all the philosophical discussions about good rulers and leadership a joke.

Bullseye. 🎯

The only caveat I have is that, while I agree with your assertion that ASOIAF is low-fantasy, the magical element does slowly gain in importance and it's fair to say that the characters who ignore the magical threats (the Others, dragons) are categorically in the wrong and will end up paying for it. But it is very, very likely that the end of the series will see Westeros returning to a normal climate and the disappearance of magic once and for all. The man himself is on record saying magic can be a hindrance and part of the problem!

This is my personal theory as to why he is taking so much time to publish The Winds of Winter, not just because he wrote himself into a corner with the Meereenese knot, making it very difficult to get Dany to Westeros in one book. But it's also that the King Bran ending doesn't make any sense. Perhaps that was indeed his original planned ending, perhaps that was indeed what he told D&D all those years ago, but as he likes to consider himself a gardener-type of writer, the garden he tended started to grow beyond his control and now having a CCTV Tree in charge of Westeros at the end of the series directly contradicts the themes he developed for nearly 30 years.

No hate to Bran, who is an OK kid, but everyone else in the series who's become entangled with the magic to that extent has paid dearly for it. We have Beric Dondarrion on page telling us exactly how it takes its toll and he feels himself becoming less human. Bran also commits several other transgressions that would normally have other characters cursed or punished via deus-ex-machina like warging into Hodor and eating jojenpaste (the last is theoretically unconfirmed, but come on).

At the end of the day, he is an immature child who's being used as a pawn by Bloodraven, with little formal training in the ways of being a lord (the bare minimum), no practical experience with leadership, no social skills and no charisma. These are all consequences imposed on him given his status as a fugitive and not his fault by any means or reflective of a lack of inclination, but they are practical realities nonetheless. GRRM has spent so many pages already criticising poor leadership skills and has always punished bad, immoral, incompetent OR naive people in positions of power - how is he going to make an exception out of Bran without negating literally every other POV he's chosen to write? This is a serious problem in the construction of the story.

He's also already been caught with his pants down by the show and saw for himself how nearly everyone either hated or mocked the King Bran endgame. I'm really very curious what was his opinion on that and whether it made him reflect in any way. D&D did indeed make a hodgepodge of the final season, but it's still got to sting to see how the majority of viewers thought it was a completely random choice and a joke ending.

#ask #anon #anti bran stark #for filtering purposes #i have no idea if bran has militant stans #i don't even necessarily dislike him though i do find his chapters boring #grrm #asoiaf #magic in asoiaf #worldbuilding

[esther-dot]

What upsets me the most about the dumbass Sansa vs Arya thing (other than it only existing because antis hate Sansa that much) is that... what does it add to the story? This isn't fandom stuff, this is something antis genuinely want for the story, but what does it ADD? What is the POINT? What value does these 2 siblings fighting against each other would give to the story? To the message and theme? It's even more worthless than the boring Cleganebowl shit.

Sansa and Arya, two siblings from the main family of the series that the story centers on, fighting and hating each other is detrimental to literally EVERYTHING. ASOIAF is LOADED with family dynamics that are actually toxic and destructive to the members. We have the Targaryens, we have the Greyjoys, we have the LANNISTERS. Westeros is so bereft of families that love each other, making the ONE family that genuinely love each other and doing their best to reunite hate each other is so... just spit on GRRM and the effort he put into House Stark, why don't you?

I don't want to sound like a pretentious ass, but these people should not read a series like ASOIAF if they're gonna let their petty feelings and opinions impact the series as a whole. They can hate Sansa, but if they hate her to the point where it impacts their reading of the series, then put it down and go read something simpler. Or just stick to fanfics because their disturbing hate fantasy will never be canon, sorry antis

(about this ask)

I talked about this before and now can’t find the post, but Arya and Jon fans who hate Sansa are holding her responsible for the problems with society that Martin is criticizing. They are missing that society is being criticized from different angles to allow us to see all the ways it’s hurting people. Rather than realizing it isn’t the little girl who caused their pain, with them we are getting two critiques (coming from different directions) of their world. Jon is excluded, Arya is expected to conform.

Jon wants in, Arya wants out.

And of course, Sansa suffers as well. She may fulfill the ideal in a way that Arya cannot, but that doesn’t save her. We have Elia and Lyanna which is another picture of conformity/non-conformity —both of them die. There is a much larger part of the story here that is the driving force of what these characters suffer, it’s a shame to dismiss all of that in order to hate on Sansa.

I have no gatekeeping instinct. I’m happy to read different takes (within reason — absolutely no Sansa hate which is why I don’t do much with anyone beyond our corner), I have read and written Martin critical stuff, I don’t mind people coming away with different interpretations. I enjoy that (within reason), and that’s a part of who I am beyond fandom so that isn’t gonna change. I simply decide, “well, I certainly never want to hear from that blogger/that part of the fandom again,” but as far as I know, they’re an angry 13yo who will reread the series in a year or two and realize, oh, the Sansa and Arya conflict is created by external forces, and actually, they can understand the pressures Sansa struggled with as well. I’m a big fan of leaving room for growth, and literature has a special way of allowing us to see things in new ways and helping us evolve as I individuals. I’d never be in favor of taking it away from anyone no matter how much I think they misunderstand it. You never know what the future holds and if one day, they’ll get it.

Also, I don’t have a perfect grasp on what Martin is doing myself. The endgame of some of the characters strikes me as….uh, less realistic, and more, whimsical, so unless I’m gonna throw out my books, I’m not gonna pretend to be more deserving than any one else. I will filter and block though because when it comes to Sansa haters:

making the ONE family that genuinely love each other and doing their best to reunite hate each other is so... just spit on GRRM and the effort he put into House Stark, why don't you?

So, uh, not to annoy you further, anon, but I didn’t call what I had written “wish-fulfillment” for nothing. 😬 I definitely think expecting the Starks to kill each other is absurd, but as a Jonsa, I’m not sure how Arya would be able to accept that relationship, and I do wonder if it’s Martin’s way of allowing tension and conflict within the Starks even upon their reunion. Maybe I worry for nothing, but Jon is Arya’s person, he made her feel love and accepted, for him to be in love with Sansa…I worry that Arya would feel displaced, and how quickly Martin would find a resolution there.

Many others have previously looked at how Martin seems to have no problem writing brothers / guys having healthy relationships, but likes to have sisters at odds. There’s a dearth of healthy female relationships, so it’s an opportunity for him to break that pattern, and if Arya was accepting of it I suppose it could be a contrast to the Cat/LF/Lysa mess. That may be the goal he’s working towards, and to your point, that adds to the story in sadly lacking area. All the same, while I do think the Starks love and will be loyal to each other, I’m not sure how warm and cozy things will be on the page? I have some concerns about what he’s making room for. But that is the benefit of being in a fandom with so many emotionally mature fic writers who value and prioritize female relationships. I get to read healthy relationships either way!

#dot chat

[dragondream-ing]

It’s kinda funny to me that even team black fans get vicious with other team black fans if they disagree with their interpretation of a character or event or rumor. Now, there are some wild or dubious claims about canon, and I get shutting those down or insisting they be treated with skepticism. But there are also genuine disagreements that, imo, don’t deserve the vitriol.

I am not talking about things we *know*, like dates and events and crucial elements of the characters’ relationships and personalities. I’m talking about the things we *cannot* know because the sources and Gyldayn simply can’t and don’t have access to every inner thought or belief of the characters. Those same sources can’t and don’t have knowledge of everything the characters did and why they did it. Those sources have their own viewpoints and bias, and so they might have witnessed or heard things that they didn’t write down because they deemed those things unimportant or counter to their bias. They might have elevated information that had little factual basis because they trusted the source it came from or it confirmed their bias (*cough* Sara Snow’s entire existence). That’s the beauty of F&B. It isn’t a novel, it isn’t a dry accounting of events, it is a history book written after the events by a maester raised in a post-Dance, post-dragons world with his own belief system, and the sources he used are limited and imperfect.

Because of the nature of the book, I would never claim my interpretation of a character is the definitive truth, only that it seems most plausible to me. I know who Rhaenyra isn’t, but I don’t know all that she is. I know who Daemon isn’t, but I don’t know all that he is. I can’t, and neither can anyone else, because the sources themselves didn’t and couldn’t. F&B is written in a way to obscure and distort at least some of the truth. GRRM isn’t an idiot, he studied journalism and history in college, he knew exactly what he was doing and he well understood the pitfalls and complications of primary sources and secondary literature. It’s not his fault that many of his fans don’t lmao (and yes, I blame HBO for the increase in stupidity, but I digress).

There are many things we know for sure (which makes the shitshow’s manipulation or removal of all the *literal facts* extra infuriating; now we have people claiming those facts are unreliable even when they are among the few things that are reliable). But I’m sorry to say, there is MUCH that is unknown.

The characters do not have their own POVs. That creates fertile ground for different interpretations of them and their motivations, even if some aspects of both are clearly defined. And entertaining those interpretations isn’t bad faith. I know we all like to think we have the One True Interpretation of our fave characters, but in F&B, even the most fleshed-out characters don’t speak in their own words with their own voice. We are reading them in the voices of other people, and those people have their own perspectives, biases, and agendas. That’s why I love the book so much, it reminds me of my days writing my history dissertation and trying to identify the societal influence and personal bias of the people I studied (sorry, I’m a bit of a nerd lol)

I know we are used to fighting team green and years of wild GOT shenanigans, but come on. I’ve seen people absolutely lose their shit because other fans disagree over the degree to which Daemon wanted a Valyrian wife. Another one I love is the fury over Valyrian customs. Some people believe the Targaryens might have continued practicing some Valyrian customs, while others believe they were true followers of the Seven (other than incest). Literally who cares?? The book doesn’t include much on this topic, but why is it so offensive that some readers think the Targaryens truly converted or that they held to their beliefs more than the maesters and septons claimed? We don’t actually KNOW because the sources wouldn’t have been privy to everything, especially things the royal family did privately, and extra especially when the conversion was for political reasons (as confirmed by GRRM) and the Targaryens would’ve had ever reason to hide customs deemed heretical by the majority religion. This, to me, is a completely inoffensive difference in interpretation, and I cannot fathom why some people view it as akin to team green stans claiming book Alicent was a child bride.

There are degrees of difference in which readers believe the sources of F&B, which I think contributes to diverging interpretations, and we should acknowledge that this is a personal choice. If you give more credence to certain sources, you’re going to come away with a different view of a character than if you don’t, and that’s okay! That’s how interpreting primary sources works, and that’s part of why historians can write books using the same bank of sources and come to different conclusions. Another reason is someone coming along that looks at those sources from a different perspective, or pays attention to sources other historians had ignored. For example, most historians pre-1970 didn’t think to check the records of the wives of politicians, so when others went back through the archives, there were tons of revelations missed by earlier scholars. This just goes to show secondary sources, aka Gyldayn, also have their limitations, viewpoints and/or bias.

A lot of people don’t even stop to question the sources. Some people put a lot more stock in Mushroom’s account than I ever would (the shitshow didn’t cast him, but it sure used his dubious claims). Some people think Eustace was pretty much a straight shooter bar a few exceptions, which I completely disagree with. Gyldayn is also a problem for me, he’s a bit of a weirdo and perv. Tbh I don’t trust any of them. Could be because I was trained to interrogate sources, not trust them, but I’d rather do that than blindly believe someone like Orwyle. It’s up to every reader to decide what seems most plausible.

And no, that doesn’t mean everything is fair game. Some things are blatantly untrue, like the bizarre metas I’ve seen claiming the character ages in the shitshow are the actual true ages lmao

Trust in a source isn’t necessary to glean facts, and from these accounts we *can* learn about the Dance, so it’s all about assessing what’s a fact, what’s propaganda, what’s exaggerated but true, what’s true but unspoken, what’s a bald-faced lie or a lie of omission, etc. And with a book like F&B with biased sources and rumors and contradictions, there will be genuine differences in interpretation that are in good faith. It isn’t fair to act like these differences are headcanons pulled out of thin air.

If you want to argue what you believe is more likely, that’s fine, but what’s the point of shitting on other fans that read the book and made their own informed opinion? Some pieces of evidence and supposition are more compelling to me but may not be as compelling to someone else. These differences are fair and good faith and shouldn’t be reduced to “you didn’t read right” or “you didn’t read at all.” And if someone claims that of other book fans, they should have the humility to admit their interpretation might not be entirely right either. Only GRRM can know the full truth, and tbh, I’m not even sure he does because that man can be contradictory af 😂

And yes, I used this as an excuse to nerd out over analyzing primary sources. Even historians that leave the ivory tower retain their obnoxious urge to pour over and question primary sources, and that extends to fictional ones.

#reading primary sources: F&B edition #obligatory anti team green #stop yelling at people for no reason #you’re probably not as right as you think #obligatory HOTD was a mistake #tbh HBO getting its grubby hands on GRRM’s works was a mistake

[liaa--qb]

do you think that team black Stans takes this hotd war topic too much And They are very much hypocrite ?? I was new in this fandom and stand with team black. I hate to say this many of them spoil whole fun on Twitter debate.I have seen their jealousy alot at Aemond getting more attention than some of their characters by audience.They made stories about him like he r@ped Alys.They would have hated daeron if he was there since first season lmao. What's your take on team black stans. Don't mistake me as a Aemond wife. I am against team green but admitting I kinda liked his character only as villian. Helaena is the only person I love in team green

EXACTLY ! This..... EXACTLY this.. see firstly m not a team supporter or stan here. I am just enjoying d show till it's tolerable😅. I just want a good show dat's it. I am not on Twitter thankfully, I am well aware what goes on there n you can hate Aemond all u want. He's a villian ofcourse 🙏🏻

Fire and blood was boring but show has chance to be better atleast though if they ever want to try😑... Regarding ur take , it's gonna be bit long now as I don't do this long stuff unless it's a fic😭

lemme tell the truth now.... ik many dumb ones are not gonna like it 😂

yes there are majority of hypocrite team black Stans who would make up these bullshits mainly with Aemond like "they gave Jace's qualities to Aemond, Aemond r*ped Alys". Jace's one was the most random 😂

bitch... like where you thought after reading the book n watching show that they gave Jace's qualities to Aemond 💀😭 ??? Where... I read the book too😂. My friends who actually introduced me to hotd who are book purists too , even they laughed on this theory when I told them.

" Jace and Aegon were adapted exactly the way they were in the books ! " It's a fact Listen I love Tom Glynn Carney too (like how can you not🥵) but sorry to those Aegon girlies who were just saying that they forcefully made Aegon a r*pist. He was like this in the book very much. They both were shown correctly how they should have been in s1.

Both green and blacks were given some good and bad shots equally in show. Bad n good shots for God's sake doesn't mean one is Angel and other one being devil. It's about writing or storyline regarding both teams. N this whole jealousy or hypocrisy towards Aemond of some team black stans is nothing but a childish stupidity to me and it's obvious that Aemond would get alot attention in show than many N y not ? 🤦🏻‍♀️

[ top 3 characters from both teams will get attention. Show will be divided into two teams from Team black it's Rhaenyra, Daemon , Colrys n (someone with corlys) who would be focused more N from team Green it would Alicent, Aegon, Aemond. Majority of Attention would be given to Rhaenyra, Alicent n Aegon as they are main 3 . It should be very much clear to every person who read the book , to me it was as I read only after watching the S1 trailer. Wasn't this very much obvious in the book. ]

Also Aemond never r*ped or assaulted Alys in the book. We never got inside of their relationship in book. He can in the show though🤷🏻‍♀️.... if makers want to. He took her as war prize which was very much common for every guy winning war.

Honestly Alys was far yrs older fucking powerful witch😭 she would eat Aemond alive be fr if she wanted to. She would have killed him way easily in starting itself . Yes there relationship was problematic n it was power imbalance both sides. They both were using each other. Aemond was clearly under her spell or either for her powers and so was Alys. Who was taking her best from Aemond's position whatever she could get from both sides.

If Grrm lit wanted to show that Aemond r*ped Alys he would have done it very well like he does this with his all other characters who were actually r@pists but he didn't. On the contrary side he wrote Aemond as evil goth twink who never wanted to scare the ladies at court n wore eye patch bcz of that😂. Same guy was making out with his floris and fell hard under spell of strong bastard witch calling her 'my lady !'

Let me clear that also Aemond not being a r@pist doesn't make him a less bad person either. He was a sadist tyrant n murderer psychopath in book. This is what made him a villian or bad guy. But the problem with some team black Stans is that they knew that audience will start giving him the ' typical Kylo ren' treatment which he's getting. ( Idk how one cannot see this coming after reading dance of d in FNB, it was very much predicted I knew it). They don't want to give any good points to any team green characters in their silly game. Like as if audience don't hype bad guys more than good guys😑.

Same way when same audience hyped Daemon more than Harwin then they don't have any problem but if audience likes Aemond n Daeron more than team black kids then their ass hate to see this n would write whole new made up reasons for not to like any team green member while cheering any other character which they like for same thing.

Funny thing is that many team black daemon lovers would write how he was right man, he killed all r*pist from city while this is the same daemon who fucks literally little girls who are prostitutes n loves it which is very much written in book. Ofcourse mysaria was with him since her childhood. As prostitutes have no other options. Taking prince like daemon and Aegon was better for their survival.

He is canon p*dophile in book but yes if Aemond is r@pist then Daemon's account of doing r@pe is way higher than Aemond even before when Aemond was born. Now why would those black Stans admit this ? 😂 never....... Believe me when I say that some of them are that level of jokers who would say that Maegor is good and daeron is bad just because he is from team green.

I really like daemon too n daemon had his bad qualities n good qualities both 🧡atleast I like the way he is . It clearly shows that some Stans they cannot even like or hate the character for what they are. They are dumbass kids watching some cartoon fight with two team. They just want to hate one team for any reason n like other team for any random reason

Mind you....many of them even hate Helaena unnecessary but same time would love Laena and for what ????🤡🤡

what I hated regarding Aemond in show :-

now things I accept that Aemond not killing Luce was very much wrong and I hated that too. Because it was not good for plot tbh for me. It's just messing up with already messed up world building. Aemond as a villian got a very much reason to Luce n y should he not ? now that's thing I genuinely think that was done wrong regarding Aemond's character, people hating it is very much justified because it very much makes luc's death stupid rather than sad.

But making up reasons like they gave everything to Aemond like they didn't made Aemond totally bad during drift mark scene as we get sympathy for rhaena n we understood her reason for being angry on Aemond atleast n Aemond insulting her. but in books it's lit Nyra's kids who were not minding their own business n Aemond was just beating them n throwing them far away from him instead of killing them with rock like in the show but ofcourse this wasn't visible to team black Stans. Because in the book honestly Aemond was very much correct during drift mark scene.

They removed viserys's taunting Aemond regarding dragon which was very important.

They showed Harwin beating Criston but we all know it was Criston who took both Harwin and Daemon easily and so many of I started to count regarding team green were done equally wrong.

just see the dumbness and hyporcrisy I once saw Darkling and rhys Stans saying bullshit about Aegon and Aemond 😂😂. Same Darkling who physically assaulted Alina, abused her. The one who gave little girls like Genya to get r@ped by the old hag king for his benefit n

the way LB wrote him I can very say that she hated him as well. And Rhys is whole another level bullshit 😂if started to write. They were not even a good written bad guys. These same idiots would typing whole ass reasons to like them. It's funny that Darkling supporters would hate Otto hightower as if they aren't the same thing 🤣. Otto slays more as compared Darkling.

many of them pretend to care about representation saying that 'Jace should not have Sara n it would hurt baela n would make her unwanted ' while same time giving thousand reasons of there was nothing bet Nettles and Daemon so that it would not harm their Daemyra. So many of them were happy when there wasn't any news regarding nettles. ( It's not only team black , many of team green stans r equally hypocrite here you asked me of team black )

#house of dragons #hotd fandom #aemond targaryen #got fandom #hotd jace #jace velaryon #aegon ii targaryen #discussion #hotd discussion #hotd discourse #team black #team green #daemon targeryan #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra x alicent #baela targaryen #nettles asoiaf #fire and blood

[witheredoffherwitch]

Tbf the way George RR writes women is also kind of madonna-whore. He's ok at writing female characters, but I personally think he gets too much credit for it sometimes. I feel like there are three categories of grrm women: madonna (Sansa, Helaena, Gilly, Myrcella, maybe Catelyn), whore (Cersei, Margaery, Alys Rivers, Melisandre) and slay queen (Daenerys, Rhaenyra, Arya, Brienne, Ygritte)

Hi nonnie, hope you're well.

Once again, I am really sorry for this delayed response. This ask pretty much vanished from my inbox and I had to dig it from my email to answer it. Apparently, that's an option if you've opted for email alerts - who knew?

When it comes to your opinion, I don't disagree. Though I am still inclined to give GRRM more credit than most of us do on this platform. While some of the tropes he employs for his female protagonists can be a bit antiquated, I will still argue that they are way more fleshed out than any other fantasy series I've encountered. Sure there are slay-queens who are further 'girl-bossified' in future installments, but unlike other literary sources, these empowered female leads rarely get their 'desired' endings. In one-off cases (like Arya and Brienne) where they end up making out alive, these women are required to let go that one specific 'trait' that made them distinct from other damsels in the universe - whether it be their pride, stubbornness, or sometimes even romance.

Similarly, the madonna and whore archetypes also challenge these expectations. The story doesn't spare either of these characters, yet somehow they can free themselves if they manage to defy their assigned roles. Now I am definitely conflating the books and the show's ending here, but it is fair to say that GRRM's own work has displayed these similar themes.

#anon asks #house of the dragon #fandom discourse #alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #helaena taragryen #alys rivers #nettles

[onthearrow]

hello arrow~ just curious, were you ever into game of thrones, and if so, who was your favorite romantic pairing (canon or not)? and did you ever at some point in time considered writing fanfiction about them?

Oh anon THANK YOU for this question I will now be putting on my GOT hat.

I loved GOT (and was ultimately disappointed like the rest of us) but still return to fic browsing occasionally. I've got two fave ships, the first of which is Jaime/Brienne. Jaime has a very compelling redemption arc (we are NOT talking about the last episode THANK YOU) that is hugely influenced by Brienne. She subverts so many of his expectations of what it means to be a knight and a lady and through that he begins to find the essence of his true self. Jaime himself is a fascinating character (the dyslexia?? omg) and the slow burn he has with Brienne is just *chef's kiss*.

As for Brienne, I really sympathize with her character. I was bullied as a kid and spent years feeling misplaced amongst my peers. I ended up determining my own path and coming into myself much as she has---I even took up fencing! And I love how she WANTS Jaime to be an asshole and he ends up un-asshole-ifying. In a way, he subverts her expectations too, they become equals, and they become a team. That shit is ROMANTIC.

My second-favorite ship will offend people, I'm sure, but there's a caveat to it so stay with me before sending me anon hate (that will be deleted, sorry). I LOVE Sansa and The Hound*. ASTERISK, BIG ASTERISK, because the age gap in the books is enormous and Sansa is a literal child. I cannot ship that romantically in good conscience, but platonically I'm obsessed with the dynamics of this relationship. In book 1 Sansa heads to the capital with her head full of beautiful princes and fairytales and castles and happily ever after, only to find out that her prince is the most sadistic fuck in all of Westeros and that the capital is cruel and that the good guys don't always win (her own father's execution???).

And then there's The Hound, the most objectively terrifying person around with the most hideous face, a complete perversion of the knights she grew up reading stories about. And yet he ends up being the one who shows her kindness. He gives her his cloak when Joffrey tries to strip her in front of the court. When he flees King's Landing, he offers to take her with him. I think there's a scene where she gets beaten and he offers her a handkerchief, too?

So while I can't ship a thirty-something alcoholic knight with a fucked up psyche with a literal teenager, I think this relationship is key in the recurring theme GRRM has going of subverting expectations. In canon, I'd like to see Sansa reunite with Sandor and ask him to be her sworn shield as Queen of the North. I think that would be a fitting ending for them. In fic, I love AUs where she's aged up and he's aged down and the author leans into the potential romanticism that that creates. It's just a straight-up no for me in canon.

Would I write fic for either of these? I don't think I'd write SanSan, but I would absolutely love to write for Braime at some point. Like at least an AU one-shot, but if I was going to go hard, I'd probably continue off from where we left them with Lady Stoneheart and give them a proper ending. (Unfortunately, I don't think GRRM is ever going to finish the series.)

This was a lot of information--sorry if it was too much anon! But I am happy to discuss GOT with anyone 😅

#game of thrones #got #braime #sansan #ask

[agentrouka-blog]

A crazy idea now I had. You know we are pretty sure D@ny coming to Westeros will be after Aegon became king in the south. It will be a sort of Dance 2.0 and there are a lot of parallels, like Barristan becoming Criston 2.0 but worse (he will die much far away from home, in a battle that nobody in Westeros care, no song will be sung for the once most admired knight of his time).

I have been trying to think about others parallels while understanding what's going to happen, using the show and looking at what was mixed and one thing always makes me frown is Varys goal around here, looking at what we had in the books and what we saw in the show.

So, reading Dance, we have the "turncloakers" that went from green to black or from black to green, and we have interesting characters too, like Corlys Velaryon and Larys Strong, and I can see Varys a "good" mix of them. And what do they do? They, supposedly, murdered Aegon after he killed his sister, whatever their motives.

In the show, Varys wished to see D@ny as the saviour, but after witnessing her tyrany, and meeting the Starks (and learning about Jon) he decides to kill her. It's subtly established, when one of his birds report about D@ny not eating the food, and he saying that they would try again. What? Posion her? Yup

So, what if after D@ny/Rh@ny (Maegor With Tits) murders Aegon, Varys becomes part of her Council (he helped Tyri0n escape, he may help him gain her trust) and even if D@ny is mad at Illyrio (probably dead), she may accept him in her circle. And that would be her ending.

What if then we have another parallel of Dance. D@ny dies mysteriously. Jon went to kill her after learning about his half-brother's death and is afraid of her menace to the rest of his family/Sansa, and is a) accused of killing her (Varys killed Kevan with a weapon, what is stopping him from killing her in the chest with a sword, dagger, crossbow) or b) he does a Cregan 2.0 and has to organize the wastelands of Westeros as the heir of the IT.

Idk, I just have this on my mind mostly from Varys plots in the show and his scenes in the books...

Hi there and sorry for the delay in responding!

Generally I agree that if Varys doesn't meet his end in connection to Aegon himself, he'll be one aspect of conspiracy-making around Dany one way or the other.

But I don't think that GRRM would give him the role of ending Dany.

There's too little thematic connection there. These aren't characters who have been known to each other and moving in a shared political constellation for enough time to make a murder like that seem like a meaningful conclusion to her arc. It's not a cynical, opportunistic political scheme that ultimately ends in a new status quo for the Targaryen dynasty. The Dance 1.0 eliminated the dragons as a factor but it reestablished the Targaryens as the ruling dynasty, incest and Valyrian supremacy and all. The ultimately futile and destructive scheming fits that very well.

That will not be the case when Dany dies, when King's Landing is a pile of ashes, when the dragons are ended once again as a factor. This will be their absolute end, clad in the imagry of apocalyptic destruction. High drama. The mode by which it comes about is likely to be thematically drenched in why that's a good thing and why it is inherently inevitable. Whether she is killed by someone with genuine emotional grievance against her destructive power, or whether she ends in self-destruction because of the delusional obsession with fire and superiority... it has to match what makes Dany specifically and the Targaryens generally bad news.

Unlike in the show, book!Varys is a scheming villain, full stop. He cuts out the tongues of children and manipulates people into their own destruction based on his own personal political vision of what's best for Westeros as a whole. A "well-intentioned extremist" at the most generous interpretation. He is essentially little different from Dany, and only vaguely so from Littlefinger. There is nothing inherently special about him that would qualify him to end Dany, on a thematic level. He will likely try. But he will fail. He's not getting a win like that to send him off before his villain death.

If someone (other than herself) ends Dany, it has to be a figure that represents what truly opposes her. And that's not Varys.

#anti daenerys targaryen #varys #asoiaf speculation

[jackoshadows]

I do remember that GRRM said he wants the books to have a bittersweet ending like Lord of the Rings. Okay Lord of the Rings… the only Fellowship member who died was Boromir. The reason the ending was bittersweet was because sweet: Sauron was finally defeated for good, Aragorn became King like he was born to be, the Hobbits were recognized as heroes of Middle Earth, peace was restored. But bitter: Frodo’s wound never fully healed, the Fellowship was ended and they went their separate ways, Frodo and Gandalf and Bilbo and the Elves all leave Middle Earth never to return (man Gandalf saying goodbye always makes me cry). Perfect bittersweet. Which makes me think… GRRM won’t have any of the Key Five die (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion). Sweet: They will become the heroes of the Realm as the ones who played a huge part in destroying the Others. And they’ll survive and be able to live good lives. But bitter because they’re gonna have trauma to deal with forever, many of the people they knew died, and it will be a LONG time before Westeros and Essos are back to normal. I do not know if Jon and Dany will become King and Queen like I want but that would be part of the sweet. Still if they all survive, the Key Five, that’s really all I need. And I know Jonsas won’t be stopping with their bs but I would take immense pleasure knowing that they were wrong and their dumb theories were all proven false

@whitedragonwolf4961 Sorry for replying to your ask after a looooong time!

So yeah, I personally think that the key 5 will survive. I base this off the story so far in five books and also on GRRM's leaked 1993 original outline for the story, considering he has always insisted that he is heading towards his 1991 ending.

In the leaked outline, all of the key five survive. GRRM admits to using main characters like Ned, Robb and Catelyn to get the readers thinking that anyone can die while there's a set of characters - the key 5 - who will make it through all of the OG trilogy.

And yes, what would make it bittersweet would be the deaths of loved ones, friends and family, the large scale destruction that they would need to rebuild, their ongoing trauma - they have all gone through so much in these 5 books - the sacrifices they would need to make, the compromises. In that sense it's not going to be wholly happy - they are not going to come out in the end unscathed. Jon Snow has even died and we don't even know what version is coming back!!

And remember, reform and change is a major aspect of these characters:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and CHANGING THE WORLD and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

The Key 5 have big political arcs, are involved in major events and are proactively in control of their own subplots in the books. The youngsters in particular - Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran - are angry about injustice and want to change how things are always done. Dany and Jon have big leadership arcs which are particularly about reforming city states and institutions. Arya's arc with the smallfolk is about her connection with them and the injustice they are facing. As Prince of Winterfell, Bran's empathy for his bastard brother Jon Snow means he signals that Lord Hornwood's bastard can be heir to the Hornwood lands.

I think that's the difference between the previous generation and the current one is that now our main characters don't look past terrible stuff happening and justify it in the name of 'I didn't know' while looking the other way or 'The oaths make it so I should let bad things happen' or 'This is how it's always been so let it happen'. They look past class and gender barriers and do things differently.

And after the Long Night, is when major reform and rebuilding needs to happen. Westeros needs leaders who are angry about what the smallfolk are experiencing, who put the people first, who have the leadership experience to rebuild and reform, in administration and politics and diplomacy, who can build bridges and enact laws - and GRRM has written all that for the key 5.

If they die at the end, then what's the point? So yes, they are very much surviving - in some form or other - though I suspect there will be a lot of sacrifice and compromise that will indeed be very bitter, precisely because good leaders/rulers care about the realm.

#ask

[bohemian-nights]

Sorry if I derailed your post about Nettles I tend to be in a minority opinion about every possible ship-I’ve never even seen my personal take on Alyssmond. I do think that Daemon is fascinated by Nettles and is infatuated with her I just don’t think that he’s capable of loving her or anyone really. Maybe Viserys or Laena in the book. I realize that many people think Daemon is hot stuff but I just don’t get the appeal

No, you didn't derail since it was on topic. Yeah, I get having a problem with the ships of HOTD or not exactly shipping them completely. As far as Nettles and Daemon go I wouldn’t say that your opinion is a minority opinion. Most people in the fandom don’t believe that Daemon actually loved her.

They think he either used her for a good time, he groomed her, or she is somehow his child(adopted or biological which is weird because fathers don’t bathe with their grown daughters, but this fandom is weird and moronic at best). So the opinion that Daemon loves and legitimately cares for Nettles with no ulterior motive is actually the minority opinion.

The general consensus before the show was that he loved Laena the most out of all of his wives(her death scene is very touching in the book).

However, after they partially race-bent Laena, the people behind HOTD proceeded to crap all over her character and her importance to Daemon which gave Daemyra stans(who were also next to nonexistent before the show) the go-ahead to say Rhaenyra was the love of Daemons life despite choke gate and the lack of supporting evidence from the book🙃

Now as far as the Daemon being incapable of loving anyone besides Viserys and Laena in the books(and I guess because he never physically assaulted her she’s still technically his most beloved wife in the show) this is where I disagree with the majority of the fandom.

Daemon did love Nettles. I say this because when push came to shove and he would have defended her life at the expense of his own:

Daemon did not have to save her seeing how the orders in Rhaenyra’s letter only pertained to Nettles.

He could’ve easily told Maester Norren to call in the goons and do with Nettles as they wished. She’s a poor penniless girl. Her head is wanted by the queen, his wife. No one is going to miss her, and you said it yourself, Daemon is not a benevolent guy.

He has ordered the murder of a literal child who was his great-nephew. He murdered his second wife’s uncle in the books despite his love for her.

He could’ve abandoned Nettles the moment she became an inconvenience, but he chose to draw his sword and possibly facedown all of Lord Moonton’s men rather than abandon her to the wolves.

Of course you can counter and say that “well Nettles wouldn’t be in this situation if Daemon hadn’t slept with her in the first place so of course he spared her,” but a. You would be taking away her own agency(because despite what this fandom says according to GRRM she’s a grown woman) and b. Once again Daemon would not just save someone at the expense of his own life when he gain’s absolutely nothing from it.

Lastly, even the people at Maidenpool(Lord Moonton’s brother) make note of how much Daemon cares about her:

Not to mention Caraxes, who shares an emotional bond with Daemon, screams, when Nettles departs from him:

So going against fandom consensus, based on all the evidence, I do believe that Daemon genuinely loved Nettles. For that reason, while yes Nettles could do better, she is with a man who loves her to the point where he would lay down his life so that she can live.

I do have my theories on why people(not necessarily you because you yourself said that you have unpopular opinions on multiple ships) are so reluctant to admit that Daemon loved Nettles, but at this point, I feel like I’m repeating myself.

I’ll just end this by saying that it’s due to the fact that Daemon leaves their (white) Valyrian queen for a “lowly” Black woman. Aka misogynoir(anti-Black racism + sexism directed at Black women) once again rearing its ugly head.

I'd really like to say it's more complex than that, but this is the same fandom where you have people throwing a fit over Nettles being in the show:

Upset that she's being aged up because they wanted to see her being raped and groomed:

Upset that she's wearing a dress(if the woman in the blurry photo is her):

People are already calling her ugly even though we can barely see her face:

And even upset that people like Nettles in the first place:

This treatment happens a lot in fandoms when there are Black women involved with a male fave or even when she deigns to exists and be an actual character. By a lot, I mean every single time., Most recently with The Bear, but also with other media like Marvel, Sleepy Hollow, and Star Trek.

Stitches blog is a goldmine on fandom misogynoir so I’d highly suggest everyone check it out.

With Black women characters it’s always “They could do better” or “They don't need a romantic arc” if they can’t use the first excuse.

When you say these statements you are venturing into putting Black women back into a very narrow box of characterization that limits her because in shows, movies, books, etc. Black women traditionally are rarely positioned as the love interest. Not to mention how often times these statements are made by the very same people who ship white couples with the same dynamics as the ship with a Black woman

Case in point, I had someone get mad at me for shipping Shuri and Namor(from Black Panther), not because Namor kills Shuri’s mother Queen Ramonda, but because Namor, who is 500 years old and basically immortal, is “too old” for Shuri who is only in her early 20s:

They said this to me even though they shipped TenRose, a Doctor Who ship where the 10th Doctor is 900(sorta immortal) to Roses 19 🙃:

Are Daemon and Nettles perfect? No, but it's a nice change to see a Black woman in media being cared for which is why I find it irritating when people try to deny Nettles a full story arc and instead want to make her into Rhaenyra’s sidekick/sexless pet.

#bnask #bnasks #hotd ask #dattles ask #dettles ask #dettles #bncommentary #dattles #daetty #nettles ask #nettles #netty #daemon targaryen #daemon x nettles #daemon targaryen x nettles #hotd fandom critical #fandom racism #hotd meta #fandom misogynoir #i ended up rambling 🤦🏽‍♀️

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

You know what's so funny about the Dead Beat Father Brigade and their allegations of 'performative Rhaegar hate'? It's actually the opposite in that hate for Rhaegar is not performative, but the stanning for him is. The amount of times I've seen comments that boil down to 'I didn't even care about Rhaegar but I defend him and like him now because so much of the fandom hates him OR I can't wait for R x L to be depicted as a romance in the books because it would piss off a lot of the the fanbase OR I feel need to defend Rhaegar for the sake of TaRg NaTiOn' is significant.

And it's just like......so you agree? The stanning of him is intellectually dishonest, in bad faith, and a lot of times the result of Oppositional Defiant Disorder? lmaooooo. Please spare me acting like you are in an oppressed minority group for liking a dead beat who got his chest relocated in the one and only battle that loser ever fought in his life.

Not the dead beat father brigade 🤣

You should coin that into the fandom lexicon next to the dead ladies club anon.

Literally what is performative about not vibing with a character because of their canonical decisions, like idgi do we win a prize or something?

The funny thing is the fandom doesn’t even hate him lmao, I’m pretty harsh on Rhaegar and I still acknowledge his character is pretty tragic and his character choices are still interesting. I think everyone I’ve seen comment on Rhaegar that isn’t a rabid stan acknowledges this.

R&L being perceived as a romance wouldn’t piss anyone off lol, most of the fandom expects it? - however just because it’s written as a romance doesn’t mean I’m obligated to like it ?? - GRRM mentioned calling Daenerys & Drogo’s wedding night romantic and consensual and I and most of the fandom has the ability to acknowledge that’s not a fair assessment.

“Childbrides were normalized in those times and GRRM said it’s romantic”…. Well sorry but I still think Khal Drogo was a disgusting piece of shit and Daenerys was a r*pe victim and child bride and could not consent.

Same way I think Rhaegar was a creepy weirdo for signaling out a child and later impregnating her as she could not consent. Don’t get me started on the creepy r*pe tower.

Targ Nation is a joke so I can’t even comment on that lol.

Honestly people can stan whoever they want, it’s okay to accept your fav did some questionable things lmao - a lot of my favs have? I think some of these folks just suffer from Stan brainrot where they can’t accept canon.

I also think if I’m being honest that a lot of people project Rhaegar onto Daenerys and therefore if you hate Rhaegar you hate Daenerys. Which is also pretty funny when you realize a big part of the Rhaegar - Daenerys connection is that she surpasses him in every single way and she was never meant to or expected to certainly not by him that believed he was the prince that was promised and then believed it was his son.

But that’s another conversation for another day.

#anon

[la-pheacienne]

I think there's a good chunk of the asoiaf readers/fandom that don't see Lyanna and Rhaegar as this tragic love story and blames Rhaegar about Elia's death and everything because of two things.

First, the sonewhat weird age difference. Lyanna dies at 16, and Rhaegar dies at 24. Meaning they must've run away around, 15 and 23.

But GRRM really isn't very good/reasonable with his female characters age.

And second, because of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna 'Queen of Love and Beauty', and the "humiliation of Elia Martell". And yeah, perhaps not Rhaegar's smoothest moment, but you know... Elia's family is planning a Targaryen Restoration. So, it's complex.

Well, at least I think those are part of the reasons.

Sorry about my English, not my 1st language.

Don't worry for the language nonnie, English isn't my first language either, so I make mistakes all the time, in french too.

So about the age difference, for one, I literally ship Daemyra 😂 While GRRM is weird with the age issue, I don't think there is anything weird in that case, sorry. We are in a faux medieval universe, Lyanna was already betrothed and of age for in universe standards and Rhaegar was still really young. I also shipped Cosette and Marius who fell in love with her when she was like 14? They didn't have sex then but my point is, who cares. In my personal life I have diametrically different standards, but that's fiction.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna instead of his wife, apart from disrespectful to Elia, was also a naive political move, especially if we take into consideration the political context and what followed afterwards. But in Rhaegar's head, at the moment, it was a gallant gesture of reward to Lyanna for being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, while winning the Northerners favour. It absolutely didn't work, but he believed it would work, because he believed that being gallant and chivalrous was the absolute peak qualities of a Crown Prince.

Him leaving with Lyanna was ethically controversial at best. And I say controversial and not downright bad for two reasons:

1) he was in an arranged marriage, that speaks for itself

2) him running away with Lyanna and sticking to her because he loved her was still more authentic, more honorable even (yes I will go there) than staying with his wife and having mistresses all around, which was oh so common at the time (like Robert). What he chose instead was ultimately much more damaging than just keeping his position and fucking around, of course, but that's what choosing to live in an authentic and truthful way gets you. It can destroy you and those around you. That's the tragedy of it. We now know, after the facts, how catastrophic it was, but in Rhaegar's head at the moment, it was the right thing to do. The foolishness of the act itself is proof of Rhaegar's overall sense of morality and honesty, if he just wanted to fuck and have heirs and keep his position, it would have been so easy for him to do that without risking angering his father and the Northerners, possible exile and a damaged reputation. He could have had it all, quite literally. If he had chosen that, probably the war would have been avoided and everyone would be happier and there would be no ASOIAF, but Rhaegar would then be an unethical person.

I see what Rhaegar did more as an "error of judgement" (in the sense it is used for heroes of greek tragedies), than a "vice".

#rhaegar targaryen #aspa rambles #lyanna stark #anonymous #asoiaf #got #I'm on my Rhaegar bullshit again but you're not helping guyss

[esther-dot]

It's just weird that how many times it occurs in Brienne chapters about how Sansa will no longer remain maid or being raped. I just hope that Grrm spared Sansa from getting involved in any kind of unwanted sexual encounters. I mean if he can save Brienne from getting raped at last moment he could have Sansa spared from it. I am actually wary of how he will deal with Sansa sexuality considering time gap he scrapped.

I think that Martin has had Sansa endure these assaults not as a prelude to her getting raped, but rather, to make her escape from them all the more remarkable. If a horrible fate doesn’t seem possible or imminent, the fact that it doesn’t happen wont hit with the same weight. To me, when the Hound holds the knife to her throat and nearly rapes her, the idea isn’t that he never would, but that he was this close to following through, and Sansa’s compassion was the only thing that stopped him.

I mentioned to someone in the comments on a recent post that the Hound brags he’s a butcher and women and children only meat, but Sansa’s kindness to him, her compassion for his suffering, prevents him from seeing her that way, changes how he views himself. It’s an awful moment, I don’t like reading about Sansa getting perved on and assaulted, but I can understand why Martin included some of it, to show the power of something other than brute force, to show her power over villains. That’s not to deny that the accumulative affect of it all by now is a lot. It is. We pretty routinely bemoan it!

I’ve been pretty confident that book Sansa will not be raped or killed for some time. Before I’ve pointed to the “virgin” trope in medieval lit (I know) as a potential reason why it never seemed like part of her story:

Telling the hero what God has in store for them is The Virgin’s primary job. She tires to keep the hero on their quest. She is often described as beautiful, graceful. Though still generally a secondary or even tertiary character in Medieval literature, The Virgin is still important to the plot. She is respected and protected in some way throughout the story. Even when she is in trouble, the author doesn’t do any physical damage to her, often just putting her to sleep or locking her somewhere until the hero can save her. (link)

(talked about this some more over here)

and I also think, as much as Martin writes a lot of sexual violence/threats of sexual violence, this isn’t something he’d do to Sansa thoughtlessly. I found this quote on his old blog some time ago, and it is reassuring to me that he takes the threat of rape against his characters seriously (poor guy wrote this before GoT premiered--I can only imagine what he thought after s5):

I have sometimes allowed other writers to play with my children.  In Wild Cards, for instance, which is a shared world.  Lohengrin, Hoodoo Mama, Popinjay, the Turtle, and all my other WC creations have been written by other writers, and I have written their characters.  But I submit, this is NOT at all the same thing.  A shared world is a tightly controlled environment.  In the case of Wild Cards, it's controlled by me.  I decide who gets to borrow my creations, and I review their stories, and approve or disapproval what is done with them.  "No, Popinjay would say it this way," I say, or "Sorry, the Turtle would never do that," or, more importantly (this has never come up in Wild Cards, but it did in some other shared worlds), "No, absolutely not, your character may not rape my character, I don't give a fuck how powerful you think it would be." And that's Wild Cards.  A world and characters created to be shared.  It's not at all the same with Ice & Fire.  No one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but me. (link)

Rape, even though he includes far more sexual violence than we may want, is something he takes seriously. He isn't going to have Sansa raped so that it trends on twitter/sparks countless articles, ups viewership, unlike how GoT used it. It would only happen in ASOIAF if Sansa's story demanded it, and since we have a prophecy of Sansa killing a giant in Winterfell rather than being harmed by one, I believe that Sansa will go North and be empowered, not further victimized.

As for a general wariness about how he is going to handle Sansa's sexuality, it depends on how you read the foreshadowing, but I do tend to think she will have a romantic relationship on the page, so I guess it isn't all good news for you, anon! 😅

#sansa stark #anti the hound #anti sansan #dot chat #<<< for filtering

[lemonhemlock]

I'm a 'Martin won't ever publish another ASOIAF book' truther but in addition to King Bran being profoundly idiotic, Martin has major structural issues that are now too 'big' to 'fix' imo. Namely, the ages of the characters are ridiculous and are all wrong for where their arcs need to go. The characters on the show were aged up and even the younger ones grew up on screen so Bran and Sansa and Arya were at least into late teens/adulthood at the end of the show - one is 13 and other is currently 11 and Bran is like, what, 8 in books? sksksksksk Just absolutely disastrous.

The characters should have been in their mid to late teens at the start of AGOT, at minimum. Especially because Martin essentially treated them, and has them act, like adults. I'm sorry, but I don't think that man has any understanding between the mental and physical developmental differences between, say, a 14 year old girl and a 17 year old girl. Every character appears and acts like they are anywhere from 3 to 5 years older than they are.

Also, the POV structure, while interesting, has also been disastrous in actually getting the story moving because certain characters have to be in certain places for things to happen while others are just sitting around killing time.

Hmmm, I don't really agree about the POV structure. It functioned fine for three books and offered compelling court drama, battles, magical elements and intriguing plot-twists. AGOT / ACOK / ASOS are pretty well paced and I've even seen someone making the case that the series could even have ended in that point and would have been one of the best fictional fantasy experiments. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing. I think the ASOS ending would have still distinguished ASOIAF from other fantasy series in its toppling of the good-guys-win-everything type of wrap-up, but it would be way less ambitious than what GRRM ended up pursuing.

The pacing problems came about with AFFC/ADWD. And I'm not one to talk here, because I'm an AFFC truther and it's always been my favourite of the series, so my two cents on this is that Dany's Slaver's Bay plotline is too damn long. Tyrion is also taking too damn long to get to her. It's a drag. In the book she is supposed to solve the Quaithe riddle,* escape Vaes Dothrak, get herself an army + navy, make the decision to leave Slaver's Bay AND sail to Westeros, so that in TWOW she can fight Young Gryff, face-off the Others, become a mask-off tyrant AND get deposed? It's a lot.

I honestly think he should just give up the 7 book compartmentation, admit defeat and just add another damn book to the series to get Dany to Westeros and fit in his fAegon plotline. It's not like he doesn't have the pages. No one's gonna care if there are 8 books instead of magic no 7. But my guess is that he's hung up over some decisions he's made in the past and kept trying to make the gargantuan plot fit inside this neat box he envisioned - 7 books, King Bran, Caesar!Jon etc. It would explain why he tried a time skip between ASOS and AFFC and had to scrap it - it would make more sense for the Stark children to be older. But he characterized himself as a gardener-style writing who doesn't plan everything in advance and lets the story grow organically. In that case, he should make allowances if the story grew in a direction he did not initially predict and make the required changes! Maybe King Bran made sense when he first wrote the initial three-book outline, but that was a long time ago & many other plot points changed.

My advice is to just stop trying to make the plot fit the previous designs, stay true to the way the characters evolved and respect the themes you've painstakingly developed over the course of nearly 30 years. Otherwise what's the point? If your original ending doesn't fit anymore, think of another ending ffs. The show is irrelevant at this point, so what if the endgame will be different? IDK, I'd be thinking that this is my life's work and I have every right to do it justice. Perhaps that's what he's thinking too and why it's taking him so long.

I agree that the ages of the characters are ridiculous, but if a time skip really, really can't fit anywhere, it's better to compromise on the age issue and leave off with a teen monarch than it would be to impose a surveillance state in Westeros as the solution with all-seeing, all-knowing Bran. That's a starkly dystopic ending, if you ask me.

Not to mention that it clashes directly with the end of magic - how is Bran supposed to be the Tree of Sauron if there's no magic anymore and everything goes back to normal? On what basis does he even get to be king at all if he's just a regular boy? How will he even survive being pulled out of the weirwood net if magic leaves the realm of men?

*“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” JFC, if Dany has to get to Asshai, I will fucking scream.

#ngl i think visiting asshai would be so cool but. do we have time for this??? #ask #anon #asoiaf #grrm #anyway whether he ever gets to publish TWOW nobody can say #but in any case he 100% will have extensive notes on how he planned the novel out #so whatever happens. we'll know sooner or later #also i'm like. this is his life at the end of the day #he has the right to write as little or as much as he wants #i'm sure there must be pages of correspondence with his editors about this or that #so the ending of asoiaf will not remain a mystery realistically-speaking #which is why i'm not a fan of prioritizing our own demands as readers #most 75-year-olds are in retirement not churching out thousand-page books

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Sorry if this sounds racist, english isn't my mother tongue so somethings can sound very insensitive or harsh, but know this isn't my intention!

The Velaryons (in hotd) are black, and we know they came with the targaryens from Valyria (who are like the ultimate white people) the thing is; since they have a history of marrying with them before the dance shouldn't they be more light skinned? Or the targaryens more dark skinned?

I’m hardly the arbiter of what is and isn’t racist, but in the words of GRRM: “It’s two variations of the same story, or a similar story, and you get that whenever anything is adapted. The analogy I’ve often used is, to ask how many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?” The Velaryons are black in HOTD because HBO cast Barbadian-British actor Steve Toussaint as Corlys Velaryon, and cast other Afro-British or biracial actors to play his family. The Targaryens are white in HOTD because HBO cast white Irish and English actors to play them. It’s a choice the people behind the casting made, so no questions about genetics (which are very strange in GRRMland anyway) are likely going to be answered.

Now for some wank under the cut:

Both Targaryen and Velaryon families are white in the books and have intermarried because they are both of the “blood of Old Valyria”, with the pale skin/hair/eye coloring that comes with it. HOTD gives this lip service by putting even worse white wigs than usual on their Afro-British actors (that were promptly torn to shreds on Twitter, as it seemed the wigmakers hadn’t consulted with anyone with experience working with Afro-textured hair). But in my opinion, it undermines a large part of the Targaryen ethos; the reason why they married the Velaryons when they had no available marriage partners among themselves was because they were so closely related as to be basically indistinguishable (people couldn’t tell if Alyn and Addam were the 100% Velaryon Corlys’ or the half-Targaryen Laenor’s children). They were also descended from Valyria, and thus were not considered “lesser men” that Aegon and onward refused to marry. A lack of diversity, of respecting other people’s opinions and boundaries, is one of the chief downfalls of Targaryens. Having the Velaryons be played by Afro-British actors undermines this message, by saying the Targaryens respected and mingled with those of different races even before their dragons died and they were forced to negotiate more. It completely misses the point of “the Targaryens considered themselves above the laws of gods and men”. The fact that the Velaryons are shunted off to the side in canon��with Laenor being killed possibly on Daemon’s orders, and Laena dying in childbirth 10 years before the war even starts, and middle aged Corlys’ unsavoryness wrt teenage girls—in addition, casting Japanese actress Sonoya Mizuna to play Mysaria, a character who ordered the murder of children and was stripped naked and whipped to death—makes this casting even more problematic. Had HBO wanted to keep the blood supremacy message intact but still have major characters of color, they could’ve cast the Hightowers with Afro-British actors instead (it makes possibly more sense than the Velaryons due to the relatively cosmopolitan Oldtown), because then you still have the scandal of Viserys being the first Targaryen to marry a non-Valyrian, of the Hightowers being outsiders to the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, as well as some real life racial parallels considering recent events (the reaction to the Prince Harry Windsor/Meghan Markle marriage, which severely harmed Meghan’s mental health)

Anyway, I’ll say that returning to book canon, GRRM throws genetics out the window when he wants to make a point. Hence all the Great Houses have a signature look that doesn’t vary unless it’s significant. Hence the Lannisters can stay blonde and green eyed, the Tullys auburn and blue eyed, and the Targaryens silver and violet eyed for millennia despite none of these traits being irl genetically dominant. The modern Targaryens (as in Dany, Viserys, Aegon) really should have some traits from their Blackwood ancestress (who had black hair and dark eyes), or their Martell ancestress(Es) (presumably having black hair, dark eyes, olive skin), but instead look classically Targaryen. Even among Myriah and Elia Martell’s children, all but their eldest (Rhaenys and Baelor) are portrayed with Targaryen coloring. So it’s not completely out of the question, following book logic, for the Targaryens and Velaryons in HOTD to stay so visually distinct until Rhaenys/Corlys’ children. However, I’d just consider it a casting decision from people who don’t care about the Targaryen Exceptionalist Doctrine and call it a day.

#ask #anti targaryen #anti got #opinion