#spn queercoding

[deanwasalwaysbi]

CHARLIE: "WE STILL TALKING ABOUT SAM OR DID YOU BREAK UP WITH SOMEONE TOO?"

DEAN: (YEP) "ME? NAH."

#dean was always bi #spn meta #beandenny is canon #benny lafitte #spn 8x11 #I'm screaming #spn scripts #I'm SCREAMING #spnscripthunt you're my hero #original content #fav #dragging dean winchester out of the closet #spn queercoding

[angelsdean]

I need people to understand how S&P (standards and practices) works in television and how much influence they have over what gets to stay IN an episode of a show and how the big time network execs are the ones holding the purse strings and making final decisions on a show's content, not the writers / showrunners / creatives involved.

So many creators have shared S&P notes over the years of the wild and nonsensical things networks wanted them to omit / change / forbid. Most famously on tumblr, I've seen it so many times, is the notes from Gravity Falls. But here's a post compiling a bunch of particularly bad ones from various networks too. Do you see the things they're asking to be changed / cut ?

Now imagine, anything you want to get into your show and actually air has to get through S&P and the network execs. A lot of creators have had to resort to underhanded methods. A lot of creators have had to relegate things to subtext and innuendo and scenes that are "open to interpretation" instead of explicit in meaning. Things have had to be coded and symbolized. And they're relying on their audience to be good readers, good at media literacy, to notice and get it. This stuff isn't the ramblings of conspiracy theorists, it's the true practices creatives have had to use to be able to tell diverse stories for ages. The Hays Code is pretty well known, it exists because of censorship. It was a way to symbolize certain things and get past censors.

Queercoding, in particular, has been used for ages in both visual media and literature do signal to queer audiences that yes, this character is one of us, but no, we can't be explicit about it because TPTB won't allow it. It's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to those in the know. It's the deliberate use of certain queer imagery / clothing / mannerisms / phrases / references to other queer media / subtle glances and lingering touches. Things that offer plausible deniability and can be explained away or go unnoticed by straight audiences to get past those network censors. But that queer viewers WILL (hopefully) pick up on.

Because, unfortunately, still to this day, a lot of antiquated network execs don't think queer narratives are profitable. They don't think they'll appeal to general audiences, because that's what matters, whatever appeals to most of the audience demographic so they can keep watching and keep making the network more money. The networks don't care about telling good stories! Most of them are old white cishet business men, not creatives. They don't care about character arcs and what will make fans happy. They don't care about storytelling. What they care about is profit and they're basing their ideas of what's profitable on what they believe is the predominate target demographic, usually white cis heterosexual audiences.

So, imagine a show that started airing in the early 2000s. Imagine a show where the two main characters are based on two characters from a famous Beat Generation novel, where one of the characters is queer! based on a real like bisexual man! The creator is aware of this, most definitely. And sure, it's 2005, there's no way they were thinking of making that explicit about Dean in the text because it just wouldn't fly back then to have a main character be queer. But! it's made subtext. And there are nods to that queerness placed in the text. Things that are open to interpretation. Things that are drenched in metaphor (looking at you 1x06 Skin "I know I'm a freak" "maybe this thing was born human but was different...hated. Until he learned to become someone else.") Things that are blink-and-you-miss-it and left to plausible deniability (things like seemingly spending an hour in the men's bathroom, or always reacting a little vulnerable and awkward when you're clocked instead of laughing it off and making a homophobic joke abt it)

And then, years later there's a ship! It's popular and at first the writers aren't really seriously thinking about it but they'll throw the fans a bone here and there. Then, some writers do get on the destiel train and start actively writing scenes for them that are suggestive. And only a fraction of what they write actually makes it into the text. So many lines left on the cutting room floor: i love past you. i forgive you i love you. i lost cas and it damn near broke me. spread cas's ashes alone. of course i wanted you to stay. if cas were here. -- etc. Everything cut was not cut by the writers! Why would a writer write something to then sabotage their own story and cut it? No, these are things that didn't make it past the network. Somewhere a note was made maybe "too gay" or "don't feed the shippers" or simply "no destiel."

So, "no destiel." That's pretty clearly the message we got from the CW for years. "No destiel. Destiel will alienate our general audience. Two of our main characters being queer? And in a relationship? No way." So what can the pro-destiel creatives involved do, if the network is saying no? What can the writers do if most of their explicit destiel (or queer dean) lines / moments are getting cut? Relegate things to subtext. Make jokes that straight people can wave off but queer people can read into. Make costuming and set design choices that the hardcore fans who are already looking will notice while the general audience and the out-of-touch network execs won't blink and eye at (I'm looking at you Jerry and your lamps and disappearing second nightstands and your gay flamingo bar!)

And then, when the audience asks, "is destiel real? is this proof of destiel?" what can the creatives do but deny? Yes, it hurts, to be told "No no I don't know what you're talking about. There's no destiel in supernatural" a la "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" but! if the network said "no destiel!" and you and your creative team have been working to keep putting destiel in the subtext of the narrative in a way that will get past censors, you can't just go "Yes, actually, all that subtext and symbolism you're picking up, yea it's because destiel is actually in the narrative."

But, there's a BIG difference between actively putting queer themes and subtext into the narrative and then saying it's not there (but it is! and the audience sees it!) versus NOT putting any queer content into the text but SAYING it is there to entice queer fans to continue watching. The latter, is textbook queerbaiting. The former? Is not. The former is the tactics so many creatives have had to use for years, decades, centuries, to get past censorship and signal to those in the know that yea, characters like you are here, they exist in this story.

Were the spn writers perfect? No, absolutely not. And I don't think every instance of queer content was a secret signal. Some stuff, depending on the writer, might've been a period-typical gay joke. These writers are flawed. But it's no secret that there were pro-destiel writers in the writing room throughout the years, and that efforts were made to make it explicitly canon (the market research!)

So no, the writers weren't ever perfect or a homogeneous entity. But they definitely were fighting an uphill battle constantly for 15 yrs against S&P and network execs with antiquated ideas of what's profitable / appealing.

Spn even called out the networks before, on the show, using a silly example of complaints abt the lighting of the show and how dark the early seasons were. Brightening the later seasons wasn't a creative choice, but a network choice. And if the networks can complain abt and change something as trivial as the lighting of a show, they definitely are having a hand in influencing the content of the show, especially queer content.

Even in s15, (seasons fifteen!!!) Misha has said he worried Castiel's confession would not air. In 2020!!! And Jensen recorded that scene on his personal phone! Why? Sure, for the memories. But also, I do not doubt for a second that part of it was for insurance, should the scene mysteriously disappear completely. We've seen the finale script. We've seen the omitted omitted omitted scenes. We all saw how they hacked the confession scene to bits. The weird cuts and close-ups. That's not the writers doing. That's likely not even the editors (willingly). That's orders from on high. All of the fuckery we saw in s15 reeks of network interference. Writers are not trying to sabotage their own stories, believe me.

Anyways, TLDR: Networks have a lot more power than many think and they get final say in what makes it to air. And for years creative teams have had to find ways to get past network censorship if they want "banned" or "unapproved" "unprofitable" "unwanted" content to make it into the show. That means relying on techniques like symbolism, subtext, and queercoding, and then shutting up about it. Denying its there, saying it's all "open to interpretation" all while they continue to put that open to interpretation content into the show. And that's not queerbaiting, as frustrating as it might be for queer audiences to be told that what they're seeing isn't there, it's still not queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is a marketing technique to draw in queer fans by baiting them with the promise of queer content and then having no queer content in said media. But if you are picking up on queer themes / subtext / symbolism / coding that is in front of your face IN the text, that's not queerbaiting. It's there, covertly, for you, because someone higher up didn't want it to be there explicitly or at all.

#long post #LONG-ass post #but it needed to be said! #i'm sorry if you think every creative involved with spn was a braindead asshole but the thing is. #even the most mediocre of writers understands a thing or two abt symbolism and writers working in TV are plagued by S&P #countless writers have talked abt the S&P bullshit and having to tweak and edit down their work to get past censors #it's a reality of writing for television #and the people who understand all this and understand the context of making TV in the early 2000s (to present tbh!) aren't 'delusional' #i'm sorry but it's naive to think that queer stories and queer characters are free to be told even nowadays. it's still a constant battle #times have changed but unfortunately not as much as you'd think #the confession !!!!! the confession still struggled to air and what we got was so obviously hacked down to bits!!!!!! #how can anyone think getting destiel content into the show was ever easy? #how can anyone think the pro-destiel writers weren't constantly having to be careful and underhanded in their writing? #there's a reason queercoding and subtext exist and it's this!!! it's censorship from TPTB #anyways. people much older than me have been talking abt this for ages. younger fans who are used to more open queer rep need to understand #it hasn't always been that easy and even nowadays SO many networks are still not willing to take a risk on queer stories #so creators do what they can #vic.txt

[quietwingsinthesky]

it's also very telling to me that 90% of the time people joke about sam being straight, they're doing it in comparison to dean, who is "obviously more queercoded" or "canonically bisexual".

and it's just. it's just. this is not a competition. they can both be queer. why are you so insistent that one has to be straight (or even homophobic, because that's the level it can get pushed to when people get really mean about this stuff) to emphasize the other's queerness. that's a weird thing to do. that's really weird. don't do that, maybe.

#spn #sam winchester #dean winchester #like. i am sorry to tell you that they are both queercoded in different ways. and that's. okay. they can both be queer. #you don't have to ration out the queerness #i mean im saying this knowing that the actual reason sam gets pushed to the side is because either a) he's boring or b) he's not a #part of a certain ship that shall not be named. #but hey benefit of the doubt here. #am i being mean? i feel like im being a little mean. it's warranted. i'm annoyed.

[mybrainproblems]

The thing is. To me, 5 Nov isn't just about 15x18, it's about everything that came before it.

It's about we're making it up as we go. It's about 05x03 / 05x04. It's about the angel in the dirty trenchcoat who's in love with you. It's about Dean's grief though all of season 7. It's about he was your boyfriend first. It's about I prayed to you every night. It's about he's in love... With humanity. It's about Dean. Stop. It's about I could go with you. It's about the I love you... I love all of you. It's about he's not an it, he's Cas. It's about all of s12. It's about the market research. It's about 12x23 / 13x01 and 13x05 / 13x06. It's about I lost Cas and it damn near broke me. It's about that's their kid. It's about Cas refusing to hurt Dean even tho Michael is running the show -- same as Dean about casifer. It's about the way they look at each other when Dean comes back after Michael is expelled. It's about what's real? We are. It's about why lamp. It's about the deafening silence. It's about everything I'm forgetting.

It's about all of it. About every writer who came before. About every writer who was there. It's about Kripke and bedlund and Carver and Gamble and Klein and Dabb and Thompson and Won and Berens and Yockey and Glynn and Perez and everyone else I'm forgetting.

It's about how destiel is like gravity. It's about how if you remove destiel then 12 years of television fall apart.

It's about the quiet inevitability of love.

It's about all of it. All of them.

To everyone who came before -- I raise a glass.

Happy November 5th

#5 nov is joy but also i get a little salty that everyone else's contributions get forgotten just bc berens got to write the confession #there's 12 years of writers consciously writing destiel into the show #there's 15 years of dean being (accidentally and purposefully) queercoded by many of the same writers #it's not just one day or one writer it was a team effort that one writer got to push over the finish line #destiel #deancas #spn #5 nov posting

[charcubed]

post written by someone who either watched BBC Sherlock with their eyes closed or has bought into prevalent revisionist history about it

#‘honestly most of the moments are crumbs’ bitch WHERE? WHERE #the absolute fucking audacity. #they’re not wrong about SPN obviously but if people could talk about destiel or other ships without shitting on sherlock constantly… #it would be fucking nice #all roads stem from / lead to the fact that people have been told TJLC is some wild feral delusion rather than just group media analysis #breaking news: analysis of SPN? analysis of Sherlock? same methods! surprise #also how are you going to say it’s ‘crumbs’ and ‘bait’ in the same breath? pick an accusation #not to be this bitch but supernatural used bisexual lighting for queercoding because sherlock and TJLC invented it.

[found--family]

💖💜💙

i hope the folks planning on resurrecting Supernatural [re:jackles] are taking notes on what's happening in the 9-1-1 fandom and with this Buck character right now. i know next to nothing about this show, but i do know that 'Buddie' is a major mlm ship between two guy friends and that this guy Buck - a strong macho man in his 30s - has just been canonised as BISEXUAL! with a MLM kiss! after SIX seasons! the subtext was there all along but the network was not on board, by the sounds of it; a change of network saw this queercoded middle-aged male character finally set free. no more subtext, no insinuations that could be interpreted one way or another, just undeniable beautiful text. 

i'm thrilled for everyone in the 9-1-1 fandom and for this positive queer rep in media! here’s hoping other shows will take note - namely Supernatural. Dean has 15 seasons of queer subtext under his belt and he would now be in his mid 40s. it’s never too late to canonise a queer character. characters are never too old to realise they’re queer. this is such an important message, and while i can’t speak for the buckgirls i can say that queer deangirls have been relating to his queercoding for almost 2 decades, including 15 seasons of bi!Dean and 12 seasons of Destiel. seeing a character like Buck come out as queer after SIX seasons (i’ll keep saying it, it’s fucking amazing) is such a win not just for queer folk but for good storytelling; i know there were likely obstacles in finally getting here, and it would be great if queer characters could come out whenever they want instead of struggling against tptb, but six seasons has given the show a wonderful amount of time to delve into Buck’s character and journey with him through various plotlines. as a fan of the slow burn for romance, and a good amount of time for character development to play out, i love that there’s six whole seasons of Buck backstory to delve into for the leadup to his bisexual canonisation.

happy bi day Buck, may you inspire more creative control to cater to the characters instead of some suit in an office who’s never even seen your show and doesn’t care about your journey and narrative freedom. today is a great day.

(the first gif is Buck’s first mlm kiss. the second gif is a moment from a gay comedy called Looking that many people have pointed out perfectly encapulates how a Destiel kiss might play out on screen.) 

💖💜💙

#dean is bi #let him be free #spn posting #911 buck is bi #thoughts #spn reboot #can i also just say: it's so good to see a character who wasn't written explicitly as the queer character yknow? this isn't some #teenbeat coming of age drama with a queer character reveal in season 1 and a queer ship canonised in season 2 #we're talking SIX WHOLE SEASONS of character development - watching this guy grow and how his #relationships with others change and evolve over YEARS of storylines. it's unknown whether buddie will #be canonised but that's secondary. this is a huge milestone for queer characters and bisexual (male) characters #moreover in a show that isn't made for teens or centred on queer identities. this guy was allowed to BE #and honestly that's more than what castiel. castiel was killed off for his queerness and then they #killed dean too rather than let him be queer. but with 911 - the show is ongoing! it's not an endtimes reveal #it's going to be allowed to exist in the narrative moving forward meaning everyone who saw the #queercoding of his characters for SIX whole seasons is seeing it come to fruition. the meta was there #and it's not belittled or ignored or criticised or condemned but embraced and celebrated and rewarded! #it's never too late #for characters or long-running shows to be allowed to be true to their narrative #destiel

[spn2006]

i would add this onto the original post if i didnt think i’d get attacked for being a #wincestie but i think this means we also need to consider the possibility that sam and dean’s relationship is and always was queercoded

#not even in an ‘i ship it’ way just in an obvious context clues and genre awareness way #wincest #samdean #supernatural #spn #spn analysis #kripke era #queercoding #queercoded #dean winchester #sam winchester #gothic horror #americana #queer dean winchester #queer sam winchester #sam/dean #rambles #🔪

[manichewitz]

speaking of gay subtext i cannot believe that in season two of supernatural (SEASON!! TWO!!!!) dean asks sam why someone assumed they're both gay and sam says, without missing a beat, "well you're pretty butch, so they think you're just compensating for something" and dean just. stares into the middle distance looking disappointed and conflicted?? like he doesn't laugh it off or gets mad at sam for saying that, like he usually does when sam makes fun of him. instead he just kinda stares off and has the same expression on his face that he always does when he's hiding something. season two bro. castiel wasn't even a glimmer in eric kripke's eye and they were still making allusions to dean's sexuality and masculinity being more complicated than what meets the eye. i'm just astounded by straight people's ability to make things gay without even realising it bc what the hell else am i supposed to think of that scene except that dean is queer. i feel like i'm going insane

#also the fact that this conversation happens and sam doesnt say anything about why people think *he's* gay...hmm...hmmm.... #anyways #like based on the tone of the episode and the show at that point it was obviously supposed to be a joke #but then why would they include dean's reaction?? it was so earnest and showed that he clearly wasnt taking it as a joke #like if spn was a show coming out today and that scene happened i wouldve absolutely interpreted it as him being queer #AND that him being queer and struggling with his identity would become an important plot point later on #which is exactly what happened #supernatural #spn #dean winchester #gay dean winchester #bi dean winchester #queercoding #queerbaiting #subtext #alex talks #destiel #sam winchester #gay subtext #spn rewatch

[deanwasalwaysbi]

Somehow it's always Dean, isn't it?

#spn 3x12 #spn henrikson #spn queercoding #spn scripts #original content #dean was always bi

[angelsdean]

they literally had him dance with a lamp. A LAMP. when light fixtures have been symbolically used to represent angel halos thru out the show. when they could've just had dean dance with garth or some random anonymous lady or literally any other inanimate object. i can't find the original post but the dance is based off a scene from an old film and in it i think they use a broom or mop. but for dean they chose *lamp* !!!!!!!! these are deliberate choices that mean things dude !!!!! LAMP !!!!! [screams incoherently into pillow]

#sorry just having a regularly scheduled breakdown over thee deliberate symbolism and queercoding in the cw's supernatural #because yes as much as we wanna joke that destiel was an accident and everything good abt spn wasn't intentional the truth is #at some point there WAS a shift where they started being intentional abt these things. the parallels. the symbolic choices. the subtext. #they were aware and intentional and there were writers writing *for* destiel #just bc the network censored them and a lot ended up on the cutting room floor doesn't mean there wasn't a deliberate effort #to 1.) queercode dean (and cas) but a LOT dean and 2.) make destiel explicitly canon. market research HELLO #vic.txt

[kidrat]

obviously people can have headcanons. zero hate toward the relevant crowd. but u have to admit its pretty funny when people call sam winchester queer coded. like why because he's nice? my man doesnt have a single male friend, how'd you expect him to be homosexual if he's not even homosocial

#obvs u can be queercoded without being coded as a gay man yadda yadda #but we all know thats what ppl often MEAN #especially on this hellsite #my point is i find it difficult to see a queer reading of sam bc he doesnt interact w men? #plus the point of comparison is dean who is incredibly involved with every man ever #i just feel like the gay sam crowd are the type who think any long hair dickie pants male feminist is 'fruity' #more power to u if u do relate to him in a queer way #but like it IS funny. cmon #all of sams best friends r milfs hes not gay hes yung gravy #spn

[gayofthefae]

Everybody's different but I honestly enjoy content better when I have hope. It hurts like a bitch, sure, but "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" honestly applies to gay ships for me. I've reached a point where I'm not naïve for falling for every queercoded ship. It's an active choice because no matter how hurt I am if they don't go canon, I still will have gotten a lot of excitement and joy from hyperfixating on them and may still through fix-it fics.

#this does not apply to spn #when i say disappointed by queercoding i mean no payoff like 'gay people and happy endings can't coexist' in the not gay but happy ending #way not the gay ppl deserve death way #buddie #byler #sambucky

[quietwingsinthesky]

Lucifer: One who is strong enough to hold me, handy, and available now.

it is. important to me. that you know. this line was accompanied by a wink.

#oh queercoded devil we're really in it now #spn liveblog

[spn2006]

its truly a testament to eric kripke’s writing and jensen ackles’ jacting that dean winchester is so clearly a cigarette smoker even though he never actually smokes in the show

#forget queercoded dean lets talk about smokercoded dean #kripke rewriting the pilot after the one with smoker!dean was scrapped: country boys make do #spn #supernatural #jensen ackles #jacting #eric kripke #kripke era #smoker!dean winchester #dean winchester #smoking #cigarettes #marlboro #rambles