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dysfunctional-family-fight · 9 months

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Propaganda for the Batfamily

"Constantly fighting, and trying to kill each other. Also are fighting the mentally I’ll at 2 in the morning while wearing glorified tights and bat ears"

"*gestures vaguely at every batfam story ever* No but like they’ve got so many issues idk where to start. Jason’s death and all the shit he started post resurrection? Damian straight up trying to kill Tim for while back in the day? Bruce’s questionable and inconsistently written parenting skills? Also they’re all vigilantes which in Gotham means they definitely have issues"

"Thomas and Martha Wayne got murdered and it's all been downhill from there"

"Bruce dresses up as a bat to fight crime and Alfred, failing to stop him, adopts a "well if you're going to do it then at least do it where I can see that you'll be safe" attitude and helps from behind the scenes. Bruce in turn adopts a child called Dick. And then a child called Jason. And then a Cass and a Tim and a Duke. It doesn't really work out with a Steph but she's family anyway. Damian doesn't need adopting because he's Bruce's bio kid that he didn't know existed for ten years. And all of the children are SO determined to fight crime that the combined forces of Bruce and Alfred aren't enough to stop them, and one by one they all become vigilantes (Bruce also adopting Alfred's attitude from before). Most of them die at least once. None of them are good at coping OR communicating OR feelings OR being a member of a functioning family but by god if they aren't trying to help. Sometimes the world, sometimes each other. They usually fare better with the former. Bruce and Dick yell at each other about everything under the sun that parents and eldest children yell at each other about. Jason is angry at Bruce because the Joker is still alive after he killed Jason. Bruce is angry at Jason for killing people. Cass is away from home a lot. Tim takes even worse care of himself than the others (on page). Duke is... actually doing pretty okay if not counting the fact that his parents got jokerised and his new family is This. Damian struggles with not killing people and a rampant animal adoption addiction. They all struggle with abandonment issues. The rest of them struggle for screentime. It's like that one vine with the girl who goes "please god, let me have just one good day" and god answers "oh my god you again? give it a rest buddy" where the family (both as a collective and as individuals) is the girl and DC Comics is god."

1 all of them have tried to kill each other at least once

2 bruce wayne is a kind of shitty dad

3 everyone but bruce and alfred were child soldiers (ish)

4 dick grayson has beefed with multiple 12 year olds after he had already grown up and moved out

5 cannot overemphasize the murders and bodily harm

6 one time bruce got lost in the timestream (comics) and everyone but tim thought he was dead and tim was like “hes alive” and everyone kinda bullied the shit out of him for it

7 one time jason got murdered by a guy and then several years later dick put him in prison down the hall from the guy

8 one time bruce beat the everloving shit out of jason for shooting a guy with a blank

9 another time bruce refused to tell jason about who killed his dad despite knowing full well

10 bruce is the main reason jason died at age 15 in the first place

11 the amount of beatings dick grayson took throughout the 50s and 60s is frankly absurd

12 in the injustice universe damian got dick killed and then bruce screamed at damian for “killing his son” despite damian also being his son. then damian joined the league of super fascists against his dad (who beat him up a lot) and then his dad put him in prison

13 bruces uncle isnt in the batfamily but after bruces traumatic orphaning his uncle did more traumatic stuff to him

"Several attempted murders, several arrests of each other, general disdain and massive fights, love that is destructive to all parties, and an inability to communicate"

"they're a family full of extremely traumatized child soldiers whose primary coping mechanism is vigilante justice. many of them have tried to kill each other multiple times. some of them have died & come back wrong. they try their best and they do care about each other but they also get into big blowout fights a lot. they all came from some form of traumatized background before being taken in. the oldest sibling (Dick) had to be a father to the youngest sibling (Damian) for a not insignificant period of time when the dad (Bruce) disappeared; this was immediately after Damian (Bruce's only biological child) had started living with them after being raised in an assassin cult by his mother for the first like decade of his life. Jason died, came back wrong, was groomed by assassins, became a drug lord, & tried to kill multiple members of his family."

"i don't think i can summarise the 80 years of familial dysfunction. my best is just. Batman is the best parental figure some of these kids have ever had. Batman."

"Take your pick of issues. Dead parents, absent parents, abusive parents, addict parents, distant parents, assassin parents. How many people are in the family? Who knows? Everyone deals with personal issues by dressing up and fighting crime in the most depressing city possible. Bruce may or may not have adopted all the kids/plays favorites."

"Bruce is addicted to adopting kids. Bruce. quit putting children into crime fighting. One of them died like how did you not learn. Dick (the first robin) is a huge ass to the next one that comes along (this is the one that died like. Super graphically and horrifically) because Bruce basically fires him as his son and Dick leaves. The one that died rose from the grave, was kidnapped/manipulated for years and has supernatural anger issues (but rightfully should be angry) tries to kill brother Tim who became robin after him for replacing him. He becomes a drug lord and starts cutting off heads. Uses guns for the bit specifically (really funny) (bruce has trauma with guns from dead parents). Bruce mean to Tim when he first comes, then finds out oh shit I have a bio kid raised by assassins that really thinks he’s epic and tries to kill Tim a bunch. It’s practically tradition for his brothers to try and kill him. I love Damian but damn babe. That’s a lot king. He also genetically got the addiction to adopting but for pets. He’s pulling up with cows and shit and keeping them. Cass is perfect and we love her. Duke has a really funny relationship with Jason, and also does some out of pocket shit in the comics (by that i mean like. Dangerous/crazy stuff but in a good way) Alfred is perpetually exhausted with them, mostly bruce. Bruce is emotionally constipated so bad, like crazy bad. This man cannot communicate and is a bad dad a lot bc of it. But he’s really trying and loves them."

#propaganda #batfamily #batman

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devilwearsgreen · 2 years

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Age Chart/ Timeline

This is the chart that actually kickstarted me into writing down a fic idea. And share it. So here it is, ill put the link to the other main posts down below:

[Concept] [Extra Notes]

Bruce left to train at 18, came back and became Batman at 22, and adopted Dick a year later.

Because of Jasons… Living Impairment, i didn't count the year between the resurrection as him aging. So despite being born around the same time as Danny, he is now a year younger.

In order to get by- Danny told everyone he was two years older than he actually was, the only person who knows the truth is Jason. Not even the batfam finds out until much later.

Tims age was the most difficult to figure out. No one has ever been consistent about it. He was supposed to be a toddler at the Flying Graysons last performance and 9 years old when he figured out who Robin was but he was still like. 15 or 17 When he became the world's youngest CEO after Bruce died? I'm pretty sure. He's also supposed to be younger than Jason. So. This is what I've figured out. This does mean he wasn't alive during the Graysons death. But maybe Jack Drake was recording it all or something and young unsupervised Timmy ended up watching it.

For the oc twins, I didn't add them to this chart for two reasons. 1) They are OC’s and while I've grown attached to them and think they add a good dimension to this story, I know OC’s like this are not everyone's cup of tea. 2) They are only a year younger than Damian, and putting their ages down felt too repetitive.

#dp x dc #dc x dp #danny phantom #batman #jason todd #danny fenton #could also work as just a batfamily age chart #just ignore danny and this is my personal reference #Jay Gale's brothers

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pluckyredhead · 2 years

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There is a lot of Discourse (TM) about how Jason’s days as Robin are portrayed now and whether or not he was always a Bad Kid and whether portraying him as such foreshadows Red Hood or undermines the whole tragedy of that story and yadda yadda. Having read Every Single Jason Appearance, I can tell you that he was definitely not originally an irredeemably bad kid, just a mildly-rascally-at-worst kid trying to survive on the streets.

However. There is one element of his post-Crisis personality that crops up a couple of times, most notably in the infamous Felipe Garzonas story, that I think shows a really consistent through-line with who he would eventually become, and that is his reaction to sexual assault. So I want to take a look at both stories - first one that takes place over Batman #421-422, and then the Garzonas story almost immediately after in #424 - and see how they frame both sexual assault, and Jason’s reaction to it.

Content Warning: These stories are very explicitly (though not graphically) about sexual assault and serial killing and the complete incompetence/apathy of male authority figures (particularly the police) when it comes to doing anything about violence towards women, so I’m going to be talking about all of those things behind the cut. There is also a suicide in one of these issues and some casual racism.

Before I get into what happens in the comics, I want to point out the numbers here. The original, pre-Crisis Jason (the redheaded circus acrobat who was basically a total Dick ripoff) debuted in Batman #357 in March 1983, and appeared in 117 comics. His retconned, post-Crisis origin (the street kid version) began in #408 (June 1987) and he died in #428 (December 1988), so post-Crisis Jason, the version that would eventually grow into Red Hood, the version that all current canon is based on, only existed for a year and a half and a meager 30 appearances. (For comparison, he’s nearing 300 appearances since his return, plus about 50 in dreams and flashbacks between his death and resurrection. Post-Crisis Robin!Jason’s relative footprint is tiny.)

This means that anything Jason does in those 30 appearances carries a lot of weight, because we’re basing so much on very little original canon. Hence this close reading.

Anyway! The first story I want to talk about is called “Elmore’s Lady” in #421 and "Just Deserts” (no, that’s not a typo) in #422, and it’s by Jim Starlin and Dick Giordano. Jason only appears in the second issue; it’s mostly a Bruce and Jim failure party.

We begin with Batman and Jim frustrated by a case: the “Dumpster Slasher,” so dubbed by the press because of where he leaves his victims. He has murdered (and raped, though it’s heavily implied rather than stated outright) ten women, but they have no idea who he is and can’t catch him. Already I’m wondering what the fuck the World’s Greatest Detective has been doing this whole time, since if you do the math, this has apparently been going on for at least three months.

Ohhh, I see, it wasn’t important to Bruce until he knew one of the victims. (I recognize that I’m being a little unfair here, but the insistence on creating a flimsy relationship between Bruce and one of the women feels a lot like the rhetoric of “protect women because every woman is someone’s daughter/wife/mother.” How about protect women because we’re people?)

Batman gets a lead and spends about 15 pages following it to a somewhat weedy guy named Vito, who attacks him. Bruce is leaning on him for answers when a much larger man, Branneck, shows up and threatens to call the cops on him for breaking and entering:

Bruce slinks out with his tail between his legs. Immediately after he leaves, Vito and Branneck’s dialogue makes it clear that they are absolutely the killers, with Branneck as the more aggressive of the two. He says they’ll need to kill another girl in order to discredit Batman, which Vito protests against, ineffectually. The issue ends.

#422 begins with Vito freaking out that Batman is going to get them. Branneck, meanwhile, is a violent misogynist who doesn’t plan to stop what he sees as his righteous vengeance against women:

This page finally makes it clear, in Batman’s second panel, that rape is happening and not just murder. (Also, it’s eleven victims, Bruce, that was the whole point of the previous issue.) More importantly, the bizarre choice is made to use the layout and Jim’s dialogue to cast Branneck and Batman as parallels, as if serially raping and murdering women and trying to stop that from happening are somehow equivalent. “Don’t go too far stopping those rapists,” Jim warns, as if that’s the most important thing when 11 women are dead, or as if Bruce has ever demonstrated to Jim that he would cross whatever those vague “boundaries” are in the first place. Me and Sulky Jason over there are fed up with this milquetoast both-sides-ism!

Meanwhile, Branneck appears to have a stalker of his own:

He shakes it off, lures Vito to an isolated subway station, and stabs him to death so he can’t rat him to the cops/Batman. Then he rolls the body onto the tracks and hides the knife under the floorboards of his apartment. However:

Branneck is arrested and charged with murder. However, the evidence of the knife is ruled inadmissible, since Batman obtained it illegally. This begs two questions:

1. If this knife is inadmissible, why isn’t all the other evidence that Batman’s obtained since 1939 also inadmissible?

2. Or, if all evidence obtained by Batman is inadmissible, why doesn’t Batman know that?

This is just so completely stupid. Any story that hangs on a plot point that makes the reader go “Wait...then what have they been doing for the past 49 years?” is not a good plot point.

Branneck is released, but he decides to leave Gotham, which has gotten too hot for him. However, he’s going to kill one more time before he goes, and it’s going to be that uppity broad who keeps staring at him.

Meanwhile, Jason finally does a thing:

Namely, intervening when a pimp threatens violence against one of the prostitutes who works for him. Jason loses his temper a bit:

Meanwhile, Branneck goes after the woman who has been following him. However, when he grabs her and tries to haul her into his van, she immediately whips out a switchblade and slashes his throat, killing him.

When the cops show up, she hands over the weapon perfectly calmly, allows them to take her into custody, and explains herself: her sister was the second victim. Since then, she’s been stalking Branneck in order to get him to attack her, so that she could kill him in self-defense. It’s made explicit that she’s been doing this since before Batman even got involved with the case, which means that at least three women were raped, murdered, and left in dumpsters before Batman decided to lift a finger.

1. Hey Coppy McBrownHair, you don’t charge people, the DA does.

2. Self-defense is a thing.

3. Hey Jim, maybe save a little bit of your judgment and horror for the serial killers? Like, I’m not saying that executing rapists without a trial is a solution, but all these cops are real appalled considering they accomplished literally nothing in this entire story.

This is the point at which I get so angry that my soul leaves my body, and here’s why: this story sits so very firmly within a privileged, oblivious cis male point of view. It positions rape and all other sustained, targeted violence against women (the misogynistic killings, the beating of the prostitute) as unfortunate occurrences that can only happen to the Other. There is a tidy distancing from what happens to all the women in the story, as if the whole thing is an academic exercise in morality. (And as if cis men can’t experience sexual violence.) Sometimes women are just raped and left in dumpsters and it’s a shame, but what can you do? The only male character in this story who has the slightest bit of empathy for women (as opposed to a distant sympathy) is Jason, and he’s repeatedly scolded for it.

And Bruce’s little speech here about how Judy was wrong to set herself above the law... Bruce did that! I mean, Bruce does that every goddamn night, nothing about what he does is legal even though he’s claiming it is, but very specifically, Branneck got away because Bruce obtained his knife illegally. If Bruce had followed the law and, like, told Jim to get a warrant or something, Branneck would be alive and in jail right now. So apparently breaking the law is totally fine when Bruce does it, even though it allows a serial killer to get off scot-free, but it’s not okay when a woman uses self-defense against her sister’s murderer. (Again: SELF-DEFENSE IS A THING! I don’t know the laws of New Jersey in the 80s well enough to know how it would play out in court, but all Judy did before Branneck attempted to rape and murder her was look at him, so Bruce can take his holier-than-thou bullshit elsewhere.)

...All of which brings us to the famous Batman #424, “The Diplomat’s Son,” written once again by Jim Starlin and drawn by Doc Bright. This story is pretty well known in fandom, so I’ll keep the summary parts as succinct as possible.

Basically, Jason is swinging around town when he hears a scream from a penthouse apartment. He crashes through the window and is attacked by the tenant, Felipe Garzonas, and Felipe’s bodyguard, Juan. Juan nearly kills Jason before Batman shows up and subdues him. Jason remembers the scream, and looks in the bedroom, where he finds a terrified young woman named Gloria hiding under the covers, her eye blackened.

Please note the horrified realization on Jason’s face. Recall that the only time the police in the previous story came close to a reaction like this was over Branneck’s death, not any of his victims’.

Everyone is taken to the police station, where Gloria explains that she went on a date with Felipe, not knowing who he was, and he raped her, but she was too ashamed to press charges. This was the second time; he had Juan kidnap her and bring her to the apartment. A livid Jason assures her that Felipe will be going away for a long time, but Jim Gordon then emerges from the interrogation room with this giant turd of an excuse:

“She says he raped her, but he says he didn’t, and so does his loyal employee, so our hands are tied”? What the fuck? Are you telling me no criminal in Gotham history has ever pleaded innocent before and he just has no idea how to handle it? Are you serious right now???

The thing that kills me about this is that Jim Gordon is supposed to be The Good Cop. The only non-corrupt cop in Gotham! Batman’s best friend! And so when he vomits out this weak nonsense, we’re supposed to read it as noble and rational. It’s so unfortunate, but he’s doing the Right and Honorable thing by...refusing to believe a sobbing, terrified woman with a black eye. (No one mentions a rape kit, which probably would have been pushing things with the Comics Code, even by the late 80s.)

The sad thing is that it’s actually depressingly realistic in its depiction of police apathy. But it shouldn’t be, either in real life, or in fiction when characters like Jim and Bruce are held up as moral paragons.

It’s also all pointless, because Jim goes on to add that oh, by the way, Felipe is the son of the ambassador from the fictional Latin American country of “Bogatago,” a name so actively silly as to be vaguely offensive. (The DC wiki says it’s located between Brazil and Colombia, and that its economy “is almost entirely based on cocaine.” WOOF.) This means that Felipe has diplomatic immunity, and the cops can’t touch him.

However, Bruce has an idea. Felipe is a drug addict (there’s a weird line where Bruce scolds Jason for being “too emotionally involved” in the case to notice the signs, because having an emotion when you interrupt a rape is bad, I guess), so if they can catch him in possession of cocaine, the state department will send him home. It’s not criminal charges, but it’s something.

Eventually they catch him buying drugs, they arrest him, and the paperwork is put into motion to sent Felipe home. But Felipe gets one last dig in: at the police station, he calls Gloria and tells her he’s on his way to see her. He’s not, of course, but it’s one last chance to terrorize Gloria and taunt Jason.

Hey, Jim actually started giving a shit! He gives Jason Gloria’s phone number, but she doesn’t answer. Bruce and Jason race over to her apartment to find that she has died by suicide.

Jason immediately heads for Felipe’s apartment, with Bruce playing catchup at a distance because he stayed to inform the authorities of Gloria’s fate, and we get two of the most famous Jason pages in existence:

For the purposes of this post, I’m not actually interested in whether Jason pushed Felipe or not. (Although personally I lean toward yes, maybe sort of by accident but maybe not, but the power of the story is in its ambiguity so I’m not invested in “knowing” the answer.)

What interests me is that we have two stories nearly back to back that are about sexual violence against women where every male character is either actively perpetrating that violence, or completely and totally ineffectual. Neither Batman nor the police are capable of stopping Branneck, and they can’t save Gloria. Jason is the only male character to be viscerally upset by what happens in these stories, and he’s the only male character whose intervention stops continued violence against women; he intervenes on behalf of the prostitute in the first story, and Felipe certainly won’t be hurting anyone else. We’re meant to read him as out of control and going too far, but these stories don’t offer much of an alternative.

Anyway, this brings us to Red Hood: The Lost Days, which covers Jason’s training between the Lazarus Pit and returning to Gotham. He’s meant to be learning from the most vicious killers Talia can find for him, but he ends up killing about half of them when they do things he can’t abide, which are often sexual in nature.

I mean, look at what he says after he kills his first teacher, who was secretly a child sex trafficker:

Rereading this after reading the Branneck story put my jaw on the floor. He’s practically directly quoting Judy! And you just know that last panel is directed at Bruce, even though he’s talking to Talia.

I don’t think the argument that Jason was always an angry child, the angriest Robin ever, particularly holds water - he's certainly not depicted as consistently angry, even post-Crisis, and Dick lost his temper plenty as Robin. But Jason has a very consistent point of view when it comes to sexual violence. Maybe it seems like I’m making a lot of hay out of two comics, but remember, there are only 30 post-Crisis Jason appearances through “Death in the Family,” meaning that the two stories above make up almost ten percent of post-Crisis Robin!Jason’s appearances, and they are both Jason working through the idea that maybe rapists should be killed - an idea that he seems to have settled into very solidly by the time he becomes Red Hood.

Part of this is timing. The late 80s were a time that comics could suddenly get a lot darker and edgier than they had previously been able to get, and they were pushing boundaries, which is why there are two rape stories back to back. And “Under the Red Hood” came out a year after Identity Crisis, which pushed comics into an even more over-the-top era of “edgy,” tasteless bullshit. (You’ll note that in those 80s comics, the word “rape” is never used and the concept is only conveyed through heavy implication; after Identity Crisis, they couldn’t fucking stop using the word. It was exhausting. Lost Days is fairly restrained, but most of its contemporaries weren’t, including other comics by Winick.)

It also makes sense as a plot device for Lost Days, since it draws an ethical line in the sand: Jason might be a bad guy, but there are some lines he won’t cross, and some things he won’t stand for. It’s a logical thing to use to get us to keep rooting for him even as he’s plotting to kill Batman, a thing the reader presumably does not want him to succeed in doing.

But those are the real world reasons. I’m interested in the character’s reasons for reacting the way he does. And like I said before, I reject the idea that he’s simply an irrationally angry person - that’s not borne out by the rest of his time as Robin, pre- or post-Crisis, or in comparison to other Robins. I also don’t think his anger is irrational - I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I find Bruce and Jim to be pretty disgusting in these stories for their apathy and condescension.

One option is that Jason is a survivor of sexual violence himself. This is a pretty common trope in fic, so if that’s a headcanon of yours, feel free to take this as further evidence! I don’t have a problem with that headcanon per se, but I don’t know that I'm comfortable with assuming that the only reason he could feel this strongly about sexual violence is because he’s been on the receiving end of it (or, say, witnessed it happening to his mom or something else that would bring it very close to home). (There’s also something a little...hm...about the assumption that because Jason was poor as a child he’s definitely been sexually abused, but that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.)

What I see in these stories is the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is when you feel bad for someone else. Empathy is when you feel as bad as if it were happening to you. Bruce and Jim display a very calm, distanced sympathy in these stories: yes, these things are terrible, and they want to stop them, but it doesn’t get them where they live.

Jason, on the other hand, clearly relates very hard to the prostitute he saves, and to Judy’s way of thinking when he hears her rationale behind killing Branneck. (”It Might Not Have Been Legal, But It Was Right”: The Jason Todd Story.) And you can see it on his face the minute he sees Gloria in that bed; he feels what has happened to her intensely, and defends her as he would himself.

As someone who writes Jason...a lot...this is something I try to keep in mind when I’m writing him. He is a very smart person and completely capable of analytical thought and careful planning, but his emotions are instantaneous, and they are deeply felt. Stimulus goes in; emotion cranked to eleven comes out IMMEDIATELY. And that’s definitely not always a good thing and has caused a lot of harm to him and others.

But at the heart of it, it comes back to a boy who cared so, so much about others that his body couldn’t contain it. He cares so much that it overflows the strictures of these two stories, which are clearly designed to cast Batman’s reserved incompetence in a tragically heroic light while foreshadowing Jason’s own death, and it shatters the moral framework Starlin is attempting to construct. Jason comes out of these stories as the only likable male character, because he cares enough to think about the women first and the dispassionate, unyielding moral code second.

(And remember, this is the boy who nursed his adoptive mother while she died, and sacrificed himself in an attempt to save his birth mother after she betrayed him. UGH there is so much to unpack here!!!)

Again, I’m not trying to argue that Jason is definitely right, or that we should kill rapists or deny them due process, or anything like that. But I think it’s really, really interesting that Jason has remained so consistent on this particular subject, even if that’s mostly down to coincidence and timing. I think it says some really compelling things about him, and some really gross things about the mindset behind those early stories. (“How do we show that this teenage boy is dangerously angry? Let’s have him be upset about rape. No one rational cares about that!”)

So to circle around to the question that I raised, uh...3000 words ago...if you track back Jason’s personality now to his days as Robin, do you find “a bad kid?” Obviously not. But you find a kid who was always intensely passionate, deeply sensitive to the pain and injustice experienced by others, and willing to voice unpopular opinions instead of staying safe in the shelter of patriarchal solidarity. And those things are absolutely still with him, in a way that has often been deeply destructive, but I don’t think they’re bad impulses. I think they’re really, really endearing ones, and it’s part of what makes him such a beloved character.

...But also, yeah, he definitely pushed that dude off of that balcony.

#jason todd #red hood #hoo boy this got long #rape cw #meta

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scandalsavagefanfic · 3 years

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Hello! I am a huge fan of ur writing. I've loved everything I've read of yours. I've read alot of what you've posted, except for a couple of the tags that are squicky for me (so I'm very thankful you tag very thoroughly). No judgement for the squick, it's just not for me. & when I'm having a bad day, I usually just go thru ur ao3 and find something to reread. I think about Therapy's Bruce & Jason every damn day. While I obvs appreciate ur darker more "problematic" content (I really vibe with some of the themes you write about bc of my own trauma, & so it's very cathartic to read about in a fictional setting), I am truly a sucker for ur more happy content. The Happily Ever After verse also lives in my head rent free. Idk more wholesome stuff just seems more special when you write it. Anyways. I would die for you. But the point of this ask is cause I'm curious as to why you don't like Urban Legends? I'm sorry if you already talked about it here or on twitter and I missed it. I was just wondering because I really enjoy your take on things and would love to hear why you dislike it. I've been enjoying it so far personally, but I am always open to DC comics criticism.

Aw thank you so much! I'm so flattered by everything you just said. You're so sweet ❤❤❤❤❤

I haven't talked about Urban Legends here or twitter (I haven't been very active in either place lately. Just a lot going on and no energy 😔) but I'm happy to do it here.

Before I start though, I just want to add a standard disclaimer and make it clear that if you like it, there's nothing wrong with that and you don't have to let me ruin it for you lol. Like what you like.

That said, since you asked...

I said this when I was talking about it on discord, that there is a difference between hope and expectation. I always hope that a new story centered on Jason (or anyone really, but things have been especially egregious for Jay for 15 years) will be good or at least treat the character with a minimal level of respect (to be honest, the bar is super fucking low). But my expectations always temper my hope, to keep it from getting unrealistic. Because my expectations are based on experience.

The long history of Jason Todd, since even before his resurrection, has been one of retroactively trying to make him "a bad seed" in order to absolve Bruce of any responsibility in his death.

I don't even expect DC or their writers to start honoring the fact that Jason was not an angry, reckless Robin (and less of the later than Dick or Tim and definitely Damian). There plenty of ways that retcon can be folded into his history and be compelling and sympathetic. And if they're going to stick with that retcon, I'm only asking that they do it in one of those compelling and sympathetic ways because Jason was 15 when he died, heroically, in one of the most selfless acts in comics, to save a woman who literally handed him over to be brutally murdered. He was 12 when Bruce plucked him off the streets, he'd been homeless and fending for himself for at least two years. I personally think that Jason's story hits harder for him and Bruce if their original, canon relationship, of Jason as starry-eyed and eager to learn and absolutely devoted to Bruce and Bruce to Jason, is preserved. But Jason's origins does leave room for a meaningful interpretation of him as angry and frustrated at the lack of meaningful results of Bruce's methods.

And that's really where my irritation at stories like Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer and Batman The Adventure Continues has it's roots.

Every time one of these stories comes out, I think (or hope, rather) that this will be the one that remembers and respects the origins of the Jason and the Red Hood, that takes into account the changed sensibilities of comics readers in the 30 years since Jason's death and the subtle, 20 year, retroactive campaign to make him the "bad Robin". The "born bad" trope is played out and literally no one likes the message it implies. That some kids are just bad eggs and there's nothing parents or the adults around them can do. Especially when it's played as the kid's fault. If Jason's time as Robin is going to be characterized by anger, then it should be rooted in anger at the social injustices he witnessed as he grew up in an impoverished, crime-ridden, area and the horrors he faced raising himself when every day was a battle for survival. There are topical, meaningful, stories to tell with that backdrop.

But those are never the stories we get.

⚠⚠ Spoilers for Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer ⚠⚠

I'm particularly disappointed in Urban Legends because for the first issue, it looked like that was the kind of story we were going to get. I was put off by the first flashback of Jason being mesmerized by Bruce's guns, and I got that feeling in my gut that it was a bad sign. Jason depicted as impatient and overconfident and the scene with the guns is heavy-handed foreshadowing that got my spidey-sense tingling. I had a inkling then (in the first three pages) of how this story was going to play out, but it was early and I could still see many narrative paths that could lead to a satisfying story. My concerns were soothed somewhat and the little flame of my hope fanned, with the flashback of Alfred scolding Bruce, with Barbara's concern for Jason. A bit of worry returned with the way Jason ruthlessly pursued an addict who didn't appear to be a dealer and with the ending of the issue. The stuff with the addict sat wrong with me but the ending was tempered some by how despicable Tyler's dad was written. The scene was clearly set so that the reader could sympathize with Jason's decision and the scene with the addict could be brushed aside as a side-effect of comics over-the-top need for constant action, so I still held hope.

Issue 2 made me uncomfortable and it's where my hope starts to take a backseat to my expectations. I can dismiss Jason's self-deprecating internal monologue as unreliable narration, except that the flashback reinforces his thought process to explicitly show that it's not unreliable narration, and should be taken at face value. Jason faces physical abuse at the hands of his mother's drug dealer and when the flashback continues later, Jason kills the drug dealer. To be clear, this is a pre-Bruce Jason. His mom is still alive. He's like... 10. He kills this guy for shoving his head into a wall and implying Jason's mother paid for her drugs with sex. This is a scene that serves a single purpose. To show that Jason has always been prone to violence.

In the spirit of full disclosure, there is the small chance the drug dealer might not be dead. But the story obviously wants the reader to think he is, and it hasn't done anything to change that yet.

Starlin already did this story with The Diplomat’s Son in 1988 and he did it infinitely better. AND that’s still technically canon. So now I’m supposed to believe that Jason lost his cool bad enough to kill two douche bags before his sweet 16? Like it’s totally normal for abused kids raised in poverty, who’ve led hard and heartbreaking lives to just... haul off and kill people? That’s bullshit, and when taken with the Jason in the third issue, who is little more than an idiot thug, this story is really doubling down on some fucked up stereotypes.

Which brings us to the most recent issue. I went into this installment with very low expectations. I thought this story was going to be about Jason, through this experience with Tyler, a young boy with a similar background to Jason's, coming to the realization that Bruce's way is the best way and that Bruce did his best by Jason.

That would be annoying (in no small part because it takes increasingly absurd levels of plot armor to keep Bruce's no kill rule relevant, let alone irrefutably right). But I can probably live with that, if only because maybe if Jason officially falls back into line with the Bats crusade, maybe I'll get stories that treat him with respect, stories that don't relegate him to comic relief, dumb brute, or a background body with no lines in a story about the Joker burning Gotham (like Jason would just fucking stand there quietly for that).

And that may still be where the story is going, Jason realizing Bruce is right.

But holy shit do I not have the right words to describe how fucking insulting and gross issue three is.

From start to finish--including the flashback--Jason is written as cruel and fucking stupid. Like straight up dumb.

The entire issue is Bruce explaining the fucking basics to Jason like it's his first day. And Jason flies off the fucking handle and terrorizes a doctor he knows isn't a part of making the Cheerdrops, beats the shit out of some random addicts, and finally, when he can't accomplish anything on his own because he's a dumb brute he calls Barbara for help and rushes in with no information where he's promptly incapacitated and must now wait to be rescued by Batman.

This panel is the least of the issues sins but I can’t screenshot the entire story but it’s representative of the tone for the whole issue (and retroactively tainted the prior two issues).

This is beyond insulting. The only conclusions Jason comes to in this issue are the ones Bruce leads him to by talking to him like he can’t make the simplest connections. And like... in this story Jason can’t make the simplest connections.

This (and the Jason throughout the entirety of this issue) is a far cry from the Jason we fell in love with in Under the Red Hood, who was competent and strategic and intelligent enough to seize control of Gotham’s underworld from Black Mask (who’s no fucking slouch, he’s the first and only person to unify organized crime in Gotham) AND elude and manipulate Bruce until the time and place of his choosing.

This is a far cry from even the Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason who is competent enough to fight the League of Shadows and Ra’s al Ghul (among very dangerous and skilled others) and smart enough to create antidotes for mind control nanotech viruses.

As he should be, by the way. Jason Todd is one of the best, most comprehensively trained fighters in DC’s stable of non powered vigilantes. He’s not irrational or hot headed. He’s pragmatic, tactically minded, and patient. He’s a detective. Right now. Has been since he was 12. Bruce doesn’t have to make him one because he already is.

Jason is not a stupid thug who uses his fists because his brain doesn’t work. And I can’t tell you how so very exhausted I am by this narrative.

This is actually the most egregious example of Jason’s skills and intelligence being not just undermined but dismissed entirely. Even Morrison’s Jason had some degree of competency.

The one, single redeeming factor of this story is the art. It’s beautiful. And Marcus To is a godsend he seems to be one of only a couple of artists who remember that Jason was a child when he was Robin and I’m literally only buying this book because of him.

Anyway, I’m sorry. I didn’t want that to come out so... um... passionately lol. I’m just very very tired. My intention with this isn’t to ruin it for you, if you like it, that’s fine.

But this issue shot this story to the top of my "Vehemently Despise” list. 1) Batman: Urban Legends (Cheer), 2) Battle for the Cowl/Morrison’s Batman and Robin, 3) Batman The Adventure Continues.

I hope the next issues somehow salvage this dumpster fire. But I’m not expecting it.

(Damnit. That sounded harsh again. To reiterate, I’m not trying to judge anyone who enjoys it, I just personally hate it and you asked me why lol 😅)

#Batman #red hood #batman: urban legends #nice art #shit story #or at least shit characterization #jason todd deserves better #this response got long and I didn't edit it #please forgive any errors #and/or unclear spots #spoilers

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forestlingincorporated · 3 years

Text

Joker and Robin

Alright, I promised this post.

So, the other day I was reading Robin: Year One, and I got to this panel with Joker in jail.

And it startled me a bit because I got this very vivid flashback (flash forward?) to Robin II, Joker’s Wild.

This is almost identical concepts for panels except one is Dick and one is Tim. And well, it got me thinking... Joker really IS obsessed with Robin as much as he is obsessed with Batman. And - I mean, fuck, he doesn’t even hate Batman - he fucking HATES Robin.

[Gotham Knights 73]

I - woah. Okay. Really FUCKING hates them.

I can’t help thinking of Joker’s first interaction with Jason ever (though this is ginger Jason) in Batman 366. He’s... super not amused to see Batman with a new kid.

And then... you know...

The Murder Thing.

Actually, Under the Hood is interesting.

Joker... kinda likes Jason, after he comes back from the dead. He's amused. He’s got this... weird fucked up family angle he’s needling Jay with. It’s almost like he thinks Jason connects him and Batman.

Until Jason calls him on his bullshit, of course.

[Batman and Robin 14]

The exception to this utter hatred seems to be Damian? Whom Joker seems to view as being more like Bruce than the others... or maybe it’s like the thing with Jason post-resurrection, Damian’s not exactly a moral compass for Bruce like Dick, Tim, or (pre-death, sometimes) Jason.

And, of course, Earth Prime has had their own take on this, delving pretty deep into the concept.

[Nightwing 16]

Joker establishes that he hates Dick the most. Death of the Family establishes that Joker thinks Dick makes “his” Batman weak with all his love and friendship and stuff.

[Redhood and the Outlaws 15]

Welp, there’s that “family” angle again.

I don’t really know if it’s even worth it getting into Joker’s take in the New52 version of Tim, it’s really no where near comparable to his New Earth version, and I’m not sure what take away there is for Joker calling Tim “boring” in this universe other than it’s the writers calling Tim boring. Skip!

Joker informs Damian that he and the rest of Bruce’s kids are a burden on Batman, that they “block out the light” he and Batman shine on each other. It’s an interesting take on Joker’s obsession with Batman.

And, finally, in the White Knight universe, they go out an say that Joker was jealous of Jason for being “closer to Batman” than he was.

....Yeah, that’s, that’s all I have to say on the matter. That’s just, like, a thing, I guess.

EDIT:

So, I didn’t really talk about Joker’s relationship to Tim very much when I wrote this. I knew he really, really hated Tim, but I didn’t have a comic handy that demonstrated that beyond their first meeting. In the interim, I found Robin 85.

Joker is critical of Dick’s initial presence, and confirms he’s always wanted Dick dead.

He’s established, again, to LIKE Jason. Not just in personality, but as a second opportunity to kill Robin like he’s always wanted, but never got the chance to with Dick.

However, Joker also indicates that he missed having Robin around.

But he still wasn’t happy to have Tim show up.

What Joker seems to hate most about Tim, is that Tim tends to work alone more often than the other Robins. This means when Joker starts a scheme to get Batman’s attention, sometimes Robin showed up, and only Robin. You can also see than Joker views Tim as the brainy Robin (though logically, all the Robins are smart in different ways - Tim himself just seems to recognize patterns the quickest, and is perhaps the most persistent in following small leads).

We later see in Joker’s Last Laugh that he is so very pissed off when he is NOT the one to “kill” Tim (it’s a misunderstanding, don’t worry about it).

At this stage, Joker seems to view the Robins as further methods to hurt Bruce. When he can’t be the one to kill Tim, he at least wants his body to show off. Then, when Nightwing shows up before Bruce, pissed and ready to kill a bitch, Joker decides that’s a better torture for Bruce than pushing Bruce himself past his code.

#joker #robin #dick grayson #Jason Todd #Tim Drake #Damian Wayne #batman #batjokes #edited post

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acceptsonlynttnightwing · 2 years

Text

I dont think Jason would want to be a Brucie Wayne. But he is alive again in comics and the public knows. Also he doesnt actually have a hair trigger temper. Dick is actually the one you could say had that problem at one point. Nor is the character unstable nowadays. Plus Jason did run a casino publically for a bit. Combine that with the fact that several drug dealers were able to successfully lead companies because of the skills they gained as criminals and many major companies have people read books about crime industries to learn to think outside the box and there is evidence to suggest Jason could be a sneaky heir in his own right.

—-

What is it with people sending submissions instead of asks? :’(

1. I completely agree that Jason would hate to be a Brucie Wayne, which is why I never said he wanted that. The post was focusing more on Dick, which is why I didn’t write about Jason’s feelings on it.

2. Oh shit, I forget about the penguin fiasco. My bad - I’ll change the original post. Thanks for reminding me!

3. Actually Dick’s never had ‘anger issues’ - most of it is vastly exaggerated by fandom with a few cherry picked events (without context) from an over 80 year history. If you’re actually interested, read a few of @bigskydreaming ‘s posts about it (I forgot the specific one I read addressing this, so it would be great if you could post the link here?). Sure, he’s fought with Roy a couple of times, but that’s largely it - if fighting with Bruce a couple of times was considered proof of anger problems, even SUPERMAN would be considered a maniac.

4. I mean, I’d say assuming a new Robin meant you were being replaced and had never been loved (when YOU yourself had replaced the original robin) and then nearly killing said 14/15 year old CHILD isn’t what I’d call stable. Neither is killing nearly killing Tim, Damian AND Dick multiple times during the DickBats era? Murdering dozens of petty criminals dressed up as your brother and grinning about said brother’s city blowing up (killing millions and possibly him) doesn’t read as particularly stable either.

Neither does punching said brother for the crime of pretending to be dead after being publicly tortured and unmasked to go undercover and save a bunch of heroes (including you and the rest of the family) when you did the same thing for far less nobel reasons?

Also, before you point to his resurrection, Lazarus pit madness isn’t an actual thing; Jason just has anger issue. Dinah, Ollie, Cass and even Ra’s have been resurrected through it and they were all perfectly fine. Jason has anger management problems - it’s a part of his characterisation (except for the four years he was robin) - and while he’s gotten better, it still resurfaces. Being CEO with issues like that wouldn’t work, especially given that Bruce’s main job was supposed to be smiling for the cameras and other rich people and signing Lucius Fox’s checks.

So, given how the majority of Jason’s characterisation has shown him, I don’t think I’m wrong. Also, no offence, but Jason hasn’t had an active title in more than a year (I pretend Seeley’s Robins isn’t a thing), so there aren’t really many opportunities he could have lost his temper lately. Especially since the reboots basically turned him into an angrier Dick Grayson and watered down his character into a mindless yes-bat (also, the reboot erased his crime empire but kept Battle for the Cowl, go figure). Like, Jason had a personality and genuinely thought he was doing what was right. Sure, he was emotionally clouded and made mistakes, but the heart of the matter was that he was willing to get his hands dirty to fix things, and I think they could have done really cool stuff with Jason if they’d kept to that instead.

5. I mean, sure, a few drug dealers have become successful businessmen, but a few people from basically EVERY profession have, so that’s not saying much. Models, professors, yoga teachers, the list goes on. Personally, I see Jason as largely good hearted, but as lacking the social skills - and being incapable of keeping up the pretence - to run Wayne enterprises. Dick, on the other hand, as actually been shown replacing Bruce and doing a good job of it (even despite Morrison’s casual racism).

Also, Jason ran a casino and a crime empire for a bit versus Dick’s ran the Titans (and the financials and branding and logistics) for years and headed the Outsiders, was a museum curator, graduated and has a law degree (something that would matter to the board of directors) and took over for Bruce as head of WE for a couple of years. I think the better choice is clear. And Bruce clearly doesn’t trust Jason enough to make him heir.

Technically, anyone could be anything, but I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to argue that Jason would be a good head of WE.

#submissions #Jason Todd #is a fundamentally angry person #and that's okay #but you can't pretend he isn't #especially with the reboots #which #unlike for Dick and Bruce #make up the majority of his existence

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ectonurites · 3 years

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How old jason when he becom red hood ?

The general consensus for pre-reboot era is around 19 (will explain) but for New 52 and on there really isn’t a great definitive answer because his backstory has been retconned and regiven multiple times making changes over and over, although based on the previews for this week’s Urban Legends issue they seem to be bringing back the original version now (down to the point of the artist drawing him in the exact same clothes as he originally wore in Death of the Family in a flashback to shortly before his death)

But anyways, we know Jason died at 15 years old:

(The Batman Files)

Then six months later Prime’s universe punch restored him to the state of before he’d died

(Batman Annual #25)

Jason crawled out of his grave, and due to his injuries ended up in a coma for a year, bringing him to 16:

(Batman Annual #25)

Then he woke up and wandered the streets of Gotham while basically catatonic for another year, bringing him to 17:

(Batman Annual #25)

Then he gets recognized and Talia takes him in, and he lives with the League for another year, bringing him to 18

(Batman Annual #25)

He then is shoved in the pit as a last-ditch effort by Talia to restore him. After this he sets off on his own to train for an unspecified amount of time but most people assume would be about another year, which would bring him to 19

(Batman Annual #25)

You could interpret his training time as being longer or shorter by a bit to kinda give or take a year or so on his age (putting him from 18-20) but most people just go with 19, since it makes sense with the previously established by LPoD-era Tim & Jason age difference

(although i’d argue again the thing I brought up on my post about Tim & Dick ages- theoretically Tim shouldn’t have turned 13 until after Jason died (Jason died at 15 in April. Tim’s birthday is in July. Lonely Place of Dying takes place several months after Jason died, during the next school year because Tim mentions being on a school vacation week not summer vacation, and Tim is 13 during the story) which puts them more at an ‘almost 3 year difference’ rather than a straight 2. Like, based on their birthdays I think it’d be more ‘they have the two year difference just for that July-August period’ but the rest of the time he’s actually 3 years older. But that’s me trying to look at the actual order of events in relation to the dates given, which writers often don’t take into account. Though you could lessen the difference post-resurrection when you consider the six months Jason was dead and wouldn’t have aged, which brings their difference in terms of time existing while alive much closer to the two years)

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northoftheroad · 3 years

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Hi, I'm a bit confused with the timeline, was Tim already Robin when Jason woke up in his grave ?

I honestly don’t know what the story is supposed to be about how and when Jason was resurrected. Originally it was some time-wimey universe changing stuff after Superboy Prime punched holes in the reality... And Jason woke up six months after his death.

Batman vol 1 Annual # 25

I'm not well enough versed in Jason's post-death story to say what's been going on since. Jason was dead dead for over 15 years before anyone thought about reviving him. So any effort to puzzle his resurrection together with Tim's debut as Robin relies on retcons. But if he was resurrected after six months, there is a good chance Tim at least was training.

It's always tricky to transform from publishing time to in-story time. Dick's two years as "Ric" in our time has in Nightwing been confirmed as a few months for him. (I've seen someone argue that five years in comics is one year for the characters. Dick was Robin for 43 years in comics and eight-ten years in-universe, etc.)

For the readers, less than a year passed from Jason was killed until Tim came along. And I don't think that period is supposed to be more than a couple of months for the characters.

For instance, in Batman # 436, Dick visits the manor and the cave some time after Jason’s death. It's the last story arc before Tim is introduced. He thinks about how it was two years since he left. (At this time, the story was that he left after Bruce decided to let Robin “die”, in Batman # 408.) Those two years encompass a lot. Dick became Nightwing and didn't have much contact with Bruce; Bruce worked alone as Batman before he found Jason; Jason trained to become Robin, was Robin and was killed; and a period after Jason's death.

#robin #jason todd #tim drake #batman #dick grayson #nightwing #red hood

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duketectivecomics · 4 years

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You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial.

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this. I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao)

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

#duke thomas #guest starring:#batfamily #damian wayne #tim drake #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #randywrites #randys meta #meta #asked and answered #anonymous asks #this was A LOT and i tried to throw some humor where i could #but uhhhh yeah!!! i hope this helps anon!!!#also just realizing its TWO AM WHERE DID THE TIME GO #ah well. Worth It

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do-not-careissa · 3 years

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Now that Men in Black has reinvaded my mind so have new plot bunnies. So have 2 Jason joins the min ideas/options.

1. Sort of a Mr and Mrs Smith type thing, jaykyle, only sadder and angstier:

Post death and resurrection Jason wasn't picked up by Talia, instead it was MiB. Using their alien tech they're able to heal him and put his mind back together. They know who he is, just like they know who Bruce and the Justice League are (for how much the Kents believed no one noticed their sudden baby acquisition, they were wrong. MiB's known all along, if anything they're the reason the Kents and other alien adopters and adoptees have done so well at staying hidden.) They give Jason the choice to either return to Bruce, go with a normal family (in both cases he'd of course have his memories wiped), or stay and work with them. Now while Jason might not have the Lazarus Pits affecting his emotions and mental stability here, he's still a teen/young adult (say like 18 or 19 by the time he's healed enough to leave) and his last memories of the bats and his bio mother weren't exactly the greatest. Add on top of that the feeling of being forgotten/replaced that would undoubtedly come at seeing the addition of, what, at least three more people to the batfam. He doesn't believe there's a place left for him there, decides to stay, at least he can do some good while he's at it.

Cut to a few years later, Jason's moved up the ranks, he's one of the organization's best agents (could be just that branch, division, or overall) but of course the job doesn't really leave much for certain other needs. So on his rare time off he'll slink off to this nice bar or something and just enjoy himself, feel human, all that good stuff. And that's how he gets involved with a certain Kyle Rayner. The guy seems normal enough, an artist with laughably bad pickup lines but a smile and eyes that make you want to laugh with him rather than at him. They have a night together, and that one night turns into two, then three, and by the fourth Jason's sure he's making a mistake here. Regulation says to keep contact with non-mib individuals to a minimum and don't give them a reason to remember you if you have to interact more than once. He shouldn't be doing this, really, but he's also given up so much over the years, both to mib, to the bats, to the universe, can you really blame him?

Between the two of them rain checks are a regular, either one or both claiming a sudden work trip that couldn't be skipped. It made Jason guilty every time but he couldn't just not go. This was his job after all. And Kyle, well he was just a normal guy who happened to be a bit loose in the head sometimes, it made sense for him to forget to call off meetups and hookups, that's just what normal people their age did right? It takes far too long for him to admit that he's in too deep, that he's fallen for this loveable dumbass. But the same could probably be said for Kyle too.

The moment they meet not as Jason and Kyle but as MiB and Green Lantern you could hear a pin drop. Jason couldn't believe this, not in a million years. Kyle? A fucking Green Lantern? Are you kidding?!

Because you see, while the general population and even the capes might be unaware of MiB, MiB is more than aware of them and they have a very big problem with them, especially the Lanterns. Because they know the GLs and Guardians would argue that earth is their terf and that minehas not right to set up rules and protocol, byt MiB has been on Earth longer, they've existed since Roswell if not earlier, GLs haven't touched Earth til maybe 15-20 years ago. And MiB's work is to protect not just the humans of Earth but the aliens who've made a home here, or even just those ones that are here for a visit. Thanks to the GLs, and by extension the Justice League, not only is MiB and its agents in so much more danger of being exposed or attacked, but so are those aliens.

Suddenly Jason's happy go lucky secret relationship has been soured if not ruined. Kyle, he'd trusted him, even l-, he actually liked him as more than just a fuck buddy, but this? He's devastated, he's angry, and while he's sure Kyle's feeling something like that too, he doesn't get to, not when he's siding with the group putting innocent people in danger, not when he's siding with the bats and Tha Guardians and everything Jason stands against.

He manages to catch Kyle off guard, taking him down and neuralyzing him quick enough that him can't take him down too. It hurts to see that blank look take over Kyle's face once the light fades, but he can't let that affect him. Kyle made his choice, and he needs to make his.

Idea 2: much angstier in the "fuck Bruce and the JL" sort of way

Post rhato 25 and Roy's death, Jason's health is deteriorating quickly. Maybe he lied about how well he was out of guilt so Roy wouldnt feel like he had to stay with Jason instead of going to Sanctuary. Now with no one there to help him, along with the mental and emotional toll, Jason's body is shutting down. This is it, he's accepted it, he fucking hates that this is how he goes, but well, it's kinda poetic that Bruce would ultimately be the reason for his deagb this time wouldn't it? Between the physical injuries he gave Jason and the mental ones he's caused, everything all ties back to Bruce.

So Jason's just there, accepting his fate, but then out of nowhere these suits just show up and they've got an offer for him. They know who he is, what he's gone through, they know how to help him and keep him safe. They can heal him. But the only way they can let him know exactly what they're doing or who they are is if he joins them. They say they've been watching him for a while, we're actually planning on approaching him, but the situation with Batman and now with the League and Jason's health has pushed their time table up. He's obviously skeptical til they really go in on everything, breaking down mib, breaking down what they try to do, and you know what, he's in. Fuck Bruce, fuck the JL, fuck them all.

None of them stepped in to help him, none of them did anything to stop Bruce, no one except Roy, Roy who's now dead because of them. They don't get to tell him what to do anymore, they don't get to control him.

So they bring Jason in for the procedure, and there's a few ways this could go. A) They just use whatever alien tech they have that heals him no issue, maybe need to replace a few bones or joints or something, whatever it is he's healed. B) they need to meld his DNA to a sample from an alien species that heals quickly (personal favorite, could go down the route of this giving Jason superhuman abilities, or even something akin to energy absorption as the reason he's able to heal which would make him a massive threat to everyone especially the gls (imagine him just draining their rings in minutes and then using that power against them)). C) the Lazarus Pits are actually of alien origin, and since Jason's already been dipped in one before and had his brain and body altered/healed by it, it still remains dormant in his system, they just need to activate it.

Whatever they do it works, and soon enough we get Jason as MiB and Bruce and the others all believing Jason to be dead ala MiB tricks. Months or even years later there comes a confrontation, the "I thought you were dead!" Shit. Or the GLs/guardians learn about them and try to impose their bs on them, try to scare them into disappearing, and guess who MiB sends to deal with them? Why their star agent of course.

#hoping to at least write something for that first one #just struggling through the words like usual #jason todd #fic ideas #jason as mib

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our-happygirl500-fan · 4 years

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You know I was thinking about how when Jason dies on his death certificate he's listed as 4 foot 8 (oh my god he was such a tiny 15 year old) but then in Under The Red Hood he's like the same size as Bruce even though he's 18 years old at most and I know Robin Jason was so tiny because of the malnutrition that he faced as a child and a reason that I see a lot of fic authors come up with for Jason growing to be so tall is that the Lazarus Pit erased the effects of malnutrition and maybe put his body at a physical peak but I also understand that from the writers side they wanted to make the Red Hood seem like a threatening villain before revealing he's Jason Todd and they couldn't quite grasp that effect with a tiny 18 year old.

I also think Jason's growth spurt writing wise was also to do with hiding his identity and also I think the fact that post-resurrection Jason's so hulking makes people forget how young he's supposed to be... he's only 18 in Under The Red Hood he's still a child, he's three years older than Tim at most :(

I think the hulking thing IS to make the readers forget that Jason is supposed to only be 18 so they can ignore some of the things he does (or the baterang to the throat) DC has a trend of doing things like that, that sometimes passes over to fan artists.

It genuinely surprises me that some people draw Steph looking so much older compared to Tim when she's at most a year older than Tim, like fan artists & comic artists will make Tim look like a baby while Steph looks like a grown woman but then again if she was drawn her age then you'd have to deal with the horrific realisation that a 14 year old got pregnant, a 15 year old gave birth and a 16 year old was horrifically tortured and died.

Sometimes I think Steph actually looks younger as Robin than she does as Spoiler despite Robin coming later in her life but then I realised that it was probably because when she was Robin it was probably the first time in her life that Steph had some adult supervision and we briefly got reminded that Steph is an actual child, Steph should actually be tiny since she grew up in a neglectful household so she should have malnutrition as well.

(Do any of you ever think about how mash potatoes were her comfort food because she grew up in a household where her mother was too high on drugs to make sure she ate & her father was constantly in prison and it would have taken a while before she could have done things like cook and buy food for herself and mash potatoes are filling and easy and cheep to make you don't even need to buy real potatoes you could even get powdered mashed potatoes)

Boy though it sure says something that the children that grew up in terrible home situations & had to be the responsible ones of the households and grow up way too fast are usually drawn older than they actually are it's almost like DC are trying to make us forget that they're putting children in those situations.

But yeah Steph should be drawn just as much baby or even more baby than Tim.

Though I also think Steph is also drawn older than she is so that people can sexualise her, ironically the opposite of Barbara Gordon's problem where she's drawn younger than she is so that people can sexualise her.

#DC comics #stephanie brown #jason todd #dc #even robins #dead robins #i'm begging you guys let them be kids

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aion-rsa · 3 years

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13 Best Blumhouse Horror Movies Ranked

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Has any single person had a greater impact on horror this century than Jason Blum? The one-time Miramax executive struck out on his own in the 2000s when he founded Blumhouse Productions, a company where he remains the CEO. And in the ensuing years, Blum’s production label would define, and redefine again, the trends of horror movies and thrillers.

Operating on the philosophy that a horror film with a micro-budget will almost always turn a profit, Blum frequently allows directors broad freedom to make what they want within the genre, and in the process has kept multiplexes perpetually spooky. In 2009 Blumhouse helped reinvent the found footage horror aesthetic, and in the 2010s, the modern phenomenon of talent-focused horror gems began with Blumhouse’s gambles.

Working with filmmakers like James Wan, Scott Derrickson, Ethan Hawke, and Jordan Peele, Blumhouse Productions’ title card is now a promise of something different, if still eminently commercial and entertaining. It even paved the way for the controversial modern discourse around “elevated” horror, with Peele’s Get Out being the first chiller to win an Oscar for screenwriting since The Silence of the Lambs.

So with a new Blumhouse horror movie in theaters this Friday the 13th, we thought it a good time to count down the 13 best Blumhouse efforts that paid off with a bloody good time.

13. Hush

At the bottom of our top 13 is this taut thriller from Mike Flanagan, director The Haunting of series and Doctor Sleep fame. Flanagan and his co-writer and star (and also wife), Kate Siegel, wanted to make a horror movie with little to no dialogue. So they came up with this concept of a deaf-mute woman (Siegel) in a remote house, who is stalked by a killer with a crossbow. Hush is at its peak in the first 20 minutes as the masked man (10 Cloverfield Lane’s John Gallagher Jr.) realizes his quarry can’t actually hear him and begins to play games.

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The pair’s relationship with sound makes an interesting dynamic in this tense home invasion movie, though the cat and mouse chase does grow somewhat repetitive and generic as the film progresses. Still, a fine performance from Siegel and an indication of what Flanagan could do on a small budget make this very much worth checking out. – Rosie Fletcher

12. Happy Death Day

The Groundhog Day formula where an odious person is doomed to relive the same day countless times has proven remarkably flexible. And Happy Death Day is no exception with its horror-comedy blend of Punxsutawney hijinks and ‘80s slasher movie clichés. Starring a ridiculously game Jessica Rothe as Tree, the sorority girl who is constantly waking up with the hangover from hell, Happy Death Day follows the typical “Queen Bee” slasher archetype, and forces her to relive the same horror movie again and again. Until she can figure out who her masked killer is, and maybe how to be a better person, she’s condemned to die in increasingly preposterous ways. Worse still, she must also wake up in a dormitory afterward.

It’s derivative in a million different ways, but delightful in many more thanks to a cheeky atmosphere from director Christopher Landon and a very savvy, self-aware script by Scott Lobdell. Most of all though, it benefits from Rothe’s comedic talents on full display, as she backflips between initial verbal bitchiness and constant physical comedy. She even manages to find a little pathos, one stab wound at a time. – David Crow

11. The Visit

The Sixth Sense may remain M. Night Shyamalan’s masterpiece, but it was an oft-referenced moment from a different film that became key to Blumhouse pulling him back from the brink of irrelevance.

Having made four objectively terrible movies in a row, including the notoriously bad wind-smeller The Happening, Shyamalan seemingly decided to use what he’d learned from a very effective part of 2002’s Signs, where Joaquin Phoenix reacts to a tense home movie of an alien sighting, and took the next logical step: What if the director put together 90 minutes of unsettling home movie moments just like that?

Your mileage may vary with the handheld, mockumentary style of The Visit, but it’s hard to argue that this brisk, low-budget tale of two young siblings staying with some very, very odd grandparents they’ve never met before could play out more wildly than it does here. And Shyamalan certainly doesn’t pull many punches when it comes to putting those poor kids in peril during the film’s climax. – Kirsten Howard

10. Creep

No, not the one set on the subway, this Creep, directed by Patrick Brice, written by Brice and Mark Duplass, and also starring them both in a tense two-hander, is an altogether more unsettling affair. Brice plays Aaron, a videographer who answers an ad posted by Josef (Duplass), the latter saying he’s dying and wants a video diary made to leave to his son. But Josef’s behavior is weird – exactly how weird is too weird is the challenge faced by Aaron.

At just 77 mins long, this is a compact, unusual, often funny movie which picks at male relationships in the modern day, and how far kindness and politeness can override instinct. Duplass and Brice are incredibly natural in a film that’s extremely unusual, steeped in unease but not really like a traditional horror, with laughter and tension relief keeping you on your toes throughout. There’s a sequel which is good too, though if you can watch the first without spoilers it delivers a particular kind of dread that’s hard to replicate. – RF

9. Upgrade

A couple of decades ago, there were plenty of films around like Upgrade. You didn’t even have to move for fun sci-fi action movies, really! But the glory days of never having to wait for the next Equilibrium, Gattaca, Cypher, or even Jet Li’s The One are long behind us. It’s pretty tough to get a slick little concept movie made when you’re expected to compete with huge action tentpoles at the box office—unless you’re Leigh Whannell, one of Blumhouse’s integral puzzle pieces.

Whannell paid his dues at the production house for 15 years as both a writer and helmer before unleashing his sophomore directorial effort, Upgrade. The film, which follows ludicrously named technophobe Grey Trace after he loses his beloved wife in a violent mugging, sees a paralyzed hero get implanted with a chatty chip that allows him to regain the use of his whole body. Soon Trace become virtually superhuman—imagine an internal K.I.T.T.—but all is not as it seems.

It shouldn’t be as delightful as it is. Admittedly, the whole thing isn’t too far removed from an elevated episode of The Outer Limits. But if you miss old school sci-fi nonsense and feel nostalgic for a time when smart sci-fi projects didn’t end up as eight drawn out episodes on a major streaming service instead, Upgrade really scratches an itch.

Of course now might be a bad time to mention that an Upgrade TV series is in the works… – KH

8. Halloween

In resurrecting one of horror’s most enduring—yet stubbornly uneven—franchises, director David Gordon Green (working with screenwriters Danny McBride and Jeff Fradley) made the smartest move he could: He stripped away the ridiculously convoluted and nonsensical mythology the franchise had built up over decades. Instead he simply made a direct sequel to Carpenter’s 1978 masterpiece.

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The result was easily the best Halloween movie since the original itself, bringing the characters and the story into the present while reverting Michael Myers back to the enigmatic, unstoppable, unknowable force that was so terrifying in the first film. Jamie Lee Curtis, Judy Greer, and Andi Matichak as three generations of Strode women bring healthy feminine empowerment to the proceedings while the intense violence and uneasy psychological underpinnings give this Halloween a resonance that has been lacking for so long. – Don Kaye

7. Split

As the movie that suggested M. Night Shyamalan’s renaissance was real, Split is still a surprising box office win for the eclectic filmmaker. With a grizzly premise about a man suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as split personality) kidnapping teen girls to hold in a zoo, this could be the stuff of ‘70s grindhouse sleaze. While there is a touch of that to Split, more critically the movie acts as a buoyant showcase for James McAvoy at his most unbound.

Playing a character with 24 different personalities, a shaved and beefy McAvoy is visibly giddy bouncing between multiple alters that include a deceptively sweet little boy, an OCD fashion designer, and a bestial final form. The commitment he shows to each also becomes its own special effect, causing you to swear his physical shape is changing with his expressions.

Similarly, scenes with theater legend Betty Buckley as his psychiatrist also rivet with the energy of a stage play, and suggest a sincere sympathy for mental illness. A rarity in horror. Nevertheless, the movie still comes down to his alters’ obsessions with their kidnapped prize (Anya Taylor-Joy), a young woman who hides demons of her own. When these true selves finally cross paths in a genuinely tense finale, Split is maniacally thrilling. – DC

6. Sinister

An unsettling entry in the horror subgenre of writers who destroy their families, Sinister marked director/co-writer Scott Derrickson’s (The Exorcism of Emily Rose) return to horror after he detoured with an ill-fated remake of The Day the Earth Stood Still. Thus Derrickson and co-writer C. Robert Cargill concocted a unique, if somewhat scattershot, mythology about a pagan deity that murders entire families in the ghastliest ways imaginable.

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True crime writer Ethan Hawke discovers the extent of those murders in a box of 8mm films left in the attic of his new home (where the last killings took place), and it’s the unspooling of those films—along with long sequences of Hawke moving through the shadows and silence of the house—that provide Sinister with its sickening core and palpable dread. Derrickson sustains the film’s foreboding mood for the entire running time, making the movie an authentically frightening experience. – DK

5. Oculus

The film that brought much of the world’s attention to Mike Flanagan, Oculus turned out to be a preview for the horror filmmaker’s interests. It also remains a truly unnerving ghost story. Not since the days of Dead of Night has a film so successfully made you scared of looking in a mirror.

Officially titled the Lasser Glass, the mirror in question is the apparent supernatural cause of hundreds of deaths, including the parents of Kaylie Russell (Karen Gillan) and her brother Tim (Brenton Thwaites). When they were children, their mother starved and mutilated herself before their father killed her. But now as an adult, Kaylie is convinced she can prove the antique glass is the true culprit, and she’ll document its evil power before destroying it. But the funny thing about evil mirrors is they have ways of protecting themselves, and wreaking havoc on a sense of time, place, and certainly self-image.

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With the movie’s near masterful blending of events occurring 11 years ago and in the present, Flanagan revealed a knack for dreamlike structure, and stories about the past damning the future. These are ideas he’s gone on to explore in richer detail with The Haunting of Hill House and Doctor Sleep, but Flanagan’s ability to juxtapose childhood trauma with a nightmarish present was never more potent, or tragic, than in Oculus’ refracted gaze. – DC

4. Paranormal Activity

It may take some mental gymnastics, but if you can take a step back and ignore all the sequels that followed in the wake of this surprise 2009 blockbuster, then you’d remember Paranormal Activity is a stone cold classic. It is also the movie that put Blumhouse on the map. Already mostly finished when Jason Blum saw a DVD screener of Oren Peli’s Paranormal Activity, this $15,000-budgeted terror is arguably the most evocative use of found footage in all of horror.

While Peli is obviously influenced by 1999’s The Blair Witch Project, that earlier movie is as famous for its shaky disorientation as it is its scares. By contrast what occurs in Paranormal Activity is excruciatingly clear. Seriously, the camera barely moves! Instead we’re asked to sit back and watch in near slow motion as an unwise couple (Katie Featherston and Micah Sloat) meddle with forces that were better off left undisturbed.

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It begins when Micah brings a home video camera into their house to track apparent ghosts in the dark; it ends in a demonic rush of violence. Everything in between is tracked by a disinterested lens, which usually sits statically in a corner or on a tripod, capturing the tedium of everyday life in its everyday natural lighting. Only occasionally does the horned shadow on the wall manifest. But then Paranormal Activity is chilling in its isolation. – DC

3. Insidious

As the fourth feature film directed by Australian filmmaker James Wan, Insidious follows a couple named Josh and Renai Lambert (Patrick Wilson and Rose Byrne), whose son inexplicably falls into a coma and becomes a vessel for malevolent entities from a dimension called the Further. The family enlists a psychic named Elise Rainier (Lin Shaye) in a battle involving astral projection and demonic possession.

Following an era of horror films that were more torture porn or police procedural (including Wan’s own Saw), Insidious was a return to the kind of horror filmmaking that was dependent on atmosphere, suspense, and what you don’t see lurking in the shadows. And Wan seemed to imbue that creepiness around the edges of every shot. Using actual adult characters and developing them (as opposed to the hipster teens that infested nearly every horror movie for at least 10 years previously) also set the film apart as a serious attempt at a genre that had been too often exploited in a tossed-off fashion.

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The world-building of Insidious left the door open for sequels, of course, and while the three produced so far have had their moments, none has matched the sheer invention and terrifying fun of the original. – DK

2. The Invisible Man

Leigh Whannell’s reimagining of the classic Universal Monster, the Invisible Man, was as much of a surprise when it hit screens earlier this year as the titular villain himself. As a smart social commentary on domestic abuse and gaslighting, while also being enormously effective as a straight up horror, this was a highly fresh take on an old standard.

At the core was the terrific performance of Elisabeth Moss as Cecilia, a woman stuck with her controlling boyfriend Adrian (Oliver Jackson-Cohen) in their high-tech, high security fortress of a home. When Cece finally manages to escape and Adrian appears to take his own life, she hopes her ordeal can finally be over. But in fact it’s just beginning.

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Playing on the true horror of not being believed, Whannell’s Invisible Man is as harrowing at times as it is thrilling. Yes, there are some extraordinarily shocking set pieces – the restaurant scene of course stands out – but it’s the increasing desperation of Cece, whose world is falling apart at the manipulative hands of a man who won’t let her go, which stays with you.

The Invisible Man is a thrilling horror, for sure, with a feel good ending (if you want to read it that way…), but it’s something altogether more exciting than that too: a fresh, relevant take on a classic, expertly directed and boasting star power delivered on a moderate budget, which flexes exactly what horror can do. – RF

1. Get Out

More impressive than any awards it won, Jordan Peele’s Get Out encapsulates the essential draw of horror: through entertaining “scares,” it unmasks truths folks might find too horrifying or uncomfortable to acknowledge. In the case of Get Out, it is the despair of Blackness and Black bodies still being commodified by a predatory American culture.

Wearing influences like Rosemary’s Baby and Stepford Wives on his sleeve, Peele pulls from classic horror conventions for his directorial debut, but gives them a startling 21st century sheen. His movie’s insidious conspiracy is neither an obvious coven of witches or the openly racist heavies of a period piece. Rather Peele sets his story about a Black man (Daniel Kaluuya) coming to meet his white girlfriend’s parents in a liberal conclave of wealthy suburbia. Written during the final days of the Obama years, Peele casts these parents (Bradley Whitford and Catherine Keener) as genial and welcoming, shielding cries of racism behind fashionable political correctness.

Yet once Peele moves past that trendy veneer, he finds a potent allegory in which the ghosts of slavery are still alive and well, even in Upstate New York. Peele also packs anxieties about interracial relationships, culture clash, and childhood trauma into a film that is nevertheless gregariously funny. Ultimately though, its final effect is triggering in the best way. Get Out offers an opportunity to confront real dread, one uneasy laugh, and then sudden jump scare, at a time. – DC

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