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aeithalian · 11 months

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On Apollo and fatal flaws

Vague question for my fellow apollogists out there: what do we think Apollo's fatal flaw is? I write this realizing that, in all five books of the series, all told from Apollo's point of view, we never actually have it explicitly stated, either from Apollo's knowledge and refusal to share (which, strangely, seems to me like something he would tell us), or from him not actually knowing, either.

Simply stated, a fatal flaw is any kind of weakness of a hero, god or mortal, that can be exploited and can cause the downfall of that character. That being said, we already know some that generally scope out the larger range of what they can be:

Percy: excessive personal loyalty

Annabeth: hubris/pride

Nico: holding grudges

Thalia: ambition

Leo: feeling inferior

Piper: low self-esteem

Luke: wrath

Jason: hesitation and excessive deliberation

And we are certain that immortals have flaws like these, too. Although it isn't explicitly stated in canon what Zeus' fatal flaw is, it's exceedingly obvious that it's paranoia and hunger for power, as well as his sexual infidelity.

I feel like we can easily knock some flaws off the list already:

Holding grudges is off the list for the main reason that, if there's one thing Apollo oozes, it's forgiveness, and the fact that he is always ready to give second chances to people who have wronged him and the world (Lityerses, Luguselwa, Meg, etc.)

For the same reason, I'm going to knock off wrath. Yes, he has moments of rage, but so does everybody else! It's human nature, and, as stated before, it's usually overshadowed by Apollo's choice to let go of that anger and choose forgiveness instead.

Ambition is an interesting one, but it's not at all something that really comes up in the series to the point where it ends up being powerful enough to be his fatal flaw. He rarely seeks power he didn't already have before, especially when you consider he is Zeus' most powerful son, and one of the most powerful gods period. Why would he need more power? Unless, of course, you choose to point out that one time he tried to overthrow Zeus, but I'd argue he was acting more out of a place of 'hey please be better at your job' than 'I want your title and position', which actually falls more under Poseidon's motivations in that myth.

Interestingly, there's a certain aspect of Apollo's character in the myths that totally screws the pooch in terms of this discussion, and that's the fact that Apollo, throughout the stories of Ancient Greece, is a typical example of perfection. Literally, he's written to be virtually flawless, the paragon of young men, and (in the context of Ancient Greek culture) doesn't have many moments of rage, selfishness, or paranoia, or at least, not as many as other gods (looking at you, Artemis).

HOWEVER, as much as the myths seemingly act like he doesn't have a glaringly obvious flaw, we as a part of Apollo's inner circle/audience know he's got one - I mean, look at him! It's in there somewhere, nobody's perfect, and I don't think anybody's pretending as such for Apollo. What irks me is that we know Apollo is not lacking in general character flaws, but there is one, beyond a doubt, that shapes his inner core irreversibly. And we don't know it.

Thankfully, though, we've got five books of content that might help us come to a conclusion.

The Hidden Oracle, being the beginning of the story and the beginning of Apollo's character development, is where we would get an inkling of what Apollo wants us to think his fatal flaw is. To us, Apollo appears vain, self-centered, and, frankly annoying. And he does these things on purpose. Or at least, he tells us these things.

That's the thing: if you look past all the fluff Apollo spits out to the audience throughout the first majority of the book, before his children are taken into the forest, you'd find that his dialogue, aka how the other characters of the story hear and see him, doesn't really reflect that. Most of the annoying, self-centered brattiness is only on the page, and not as obvious in his personal interactions (not saying they're not there, but it's so much worse in his internal monologue). So, what does this tell us?

That those aren't his fatal flaws. He's very good at pretending that they are, probably because, as I've read several other metas very cleverly explain, that this is what gods are supposed to be, and, Apollo, in his desperation be his father's golden child again (or, also to avoid his wrath, take that how you will) has built up a very elaborate mask for thousands of years, because that is what he is not. He's trying to be glossed over in the vast sea that is the gods, and it's not really working because, well, he got turned into a mortal. Again.

As we pass through books 2 and 3, we're still not quite past the whole "pretending to be petty and self-serving because this is what I am supposed to be as dictated by the laws of my immortal people and my father". That, almost certainly, doesn't come until the latter half of The Burning Maze. So it's further safe to assume that our best guess as to his fatal flaw probably coincides with his more honest moments with the audience, eg. books 4 and 5.

Now, I know a popular common answer to this whole question is that it's his ego and his pride. But here's the thing: as we move on to the second half of the series, we get an interesting revealing of Apollo's perception of himself. To put it plainly: Apollo is not a narcissist, as much as he pretends to be (see the above points). Honestly, he might actually hate himself and what he's become as he learns to take a more critical view of himself as the series goes on. Drawn in direct antithesis to his moments in the first two books, when he tells us that he assumes that anybody he meets is willing to help him, after the peak of his development (marked by his promise and Jason's subsequent death), this isn't the case. That's why I'm pretty okay with putting pride and ego towards the bottom of my list of possible fatal flaws for him.

Honestly, if I didn't know any better as we reach the end of the series, I'd say Apollo's fatal flaw might fall somewhere closer to poor self-esteem, insecurity and self-doubt, but for some reason, that doesn't quite fit. I'd argue that a lot of those feelings probably stem from being stuck in the inadequate body of a mortal with a tiny fraction of his usual power - of course he's going to feel like that. That, and it's almost the direct opposite of what his flaw is perceived to be by other sources, so it feels like too large a leap to me.

I'm deliberating from my point, which is this: I still have no clue what his fatal flaw is.

It's not:

narcissism

pride

OR on the other side of the spectrum:

low-self esteem

self-doubt

OR the list of things we knocked off earlier:

holding grudges

wrath

ambition

And when you compare to other characters he might also be like, I would argue he's a totally different animal. The only character I could see a similarity with is Percy. But, again, it's just not the same. Percy's flaw, excessive personal loyalty, still doesn't really fit because, while I'd argue that Apollo's never really put in a situation where he's had to choose to save the life a mortal friend over his task of restoring the Oracles, I do believe he has a strong sense of duty. No, I don't think he would sacrifice Meg's life to do that job, but it's not something we see him forced to pick between (that I can think of, at least). I like to think that, on one hand, Percy would flat-out refuse to do his duty to save the life of a friend out of principle, whereas Apollo might find a clever loophole to save the friend, do the duty, and end up doing harm to himself. If anything, while Percy would be ready to burn the world to save a friend, Apollo would be ready to burn himself first.

That, I think, is our biggest indicator. Apollo loves his friends and the world. He wears his heart on his sleeve, this is something the Triumvirate exploits to no end.

Athena tells Percy something in the PJO series (the Titan's Curse, I think?) and says that the most dangerous fatal flaws are the ones that are good in moderation. And, of course, Apollo is a main character, so naturally his fatal flaw will fall under this category.

I think Apollo's fatal flaw is of the same breed as Percy's, but isn't really the same creature. I'm sure there's a more eloquent way to put this, but it seems to me that his fatal flaw has something to do with his tendency to be self-sacrificing, easily forgiving, and empathetic. He's been stabbed in the back several times and every time chooses instead to show trust and camaraderie, to see the best in people, and give them another chance to prove themselves: with Meg, Crest, Lityerses, Luguselwa, Meg's adoptive siblings, and many, many more. That seems very dangerous in the wrong situation, yes? Especially someone in Apollo's position - there are plenty of bad people who would be ready to take advantage of this.

And what is a story if not the hero learning to overcome their fatal flaw? And, really what is the Trials of Apollo all about? How do we end? What choices does Apollo make for the future at the conclusion of the Tower of Nero that directly contradict his overwhelming urge to choose forgiveness and let others try again?

The Tower of Nero, Chapter 36

At the end of any good epic story, the hero learns to overcome their weaknesses and flaws and do the right thing regardless. For Apollo, this comes when he refuses to forgive one person: Zeus. Apollo ends his pentalogy with coming to an understanding of himself and his relationship with his father, learning to overcome that tendency see the best in everyone, and realize that not everyone can choose to change for the better like Apollo has.

EDIT: a masterlist of my other metas

#thank u for coming to my ted talk #trials of apollo #toa #apollogists #riordanverse

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sugarpasteltmnt · 2 months

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i am currently catching up on neon void, and it is a delight to read. your descriptions of leo’s mind is mesmerizing and grabs the reader’s attention so well. it’s very diverse and unique compared to other interpretations and fics♥️

i’m curious to know what your thinking process was like while writing leo’s insanity and his own thought processes.

(spoilers for ch11) the scene that stuck out to me the most was when leo was about to infect donnie. it felt so vulnerable and raw ahh

anyways i just want to dig into your mind a little to know how it works.

keep up the great work, you are doing wonderful.

WAAA THANK YOU SO MUCH 😭😭😭 you are so sweet thank you!! 💙💗‼️and ohmigosh what a fun ask.

tbh i sat on this one for a while to think of how to dive into it-- beware of my (VERY) long ramblings below!

this question really got me Thinkin' and i kinda popped off but!! If i may indulge myself, here's sort of a wild explanation of how i approach Leo's Insane Brain for this specific fic:

does it meet R.I.S.E???

R - Realistic? I - Interesting? S - Silly? E - Existential?

R - Realistic

"How the hell do i make this sound realistic" is often an obstacle i run into. but it's also the Secret Sauce. What really gives the thought process direction. Given Leo's current situation, he's battling between what he wants and what he needs to do. Which is often a very real problem real people have. Exaggerating it helps create a fun back-and-forth dialog that can make his thoughts seem muddled.

With Leo in this fic’s setup, there are about five main key factors i rely on with his decision making:

Happiness The root of Leo’s general personification. He’s the guy who beat Krang One. The one who escaped a place worse than Hell. After years of missing home so much he’s FINALLY home. He’s drunk on happiness. He was finally home. And that relief and joy is what makes him so jubilant and goofy.

Awareness of his goal Though Rise Leo is a very funny dude, he's still a Leonardo. Throughout the series, Leo is the voice of reason when things are getting out of hand or are potentially dangerous. Leo's had nothing but time to think. Wishing what he'd done different. Wishing he had been more serious. After five years obsessing over his mistake and missing his family, the moment he see's the opportunity to make sure this never happens again he'll latch onto it. And when the stakes are high, accentuating that tension can help with frantic impact of his thinking.

His desire to see his family This desire often clashes with point number 2. Writing his internal struggle between the two helps with the “overwhelmed thoughts” vibe. It’s hard for him to choose! And he doesn’t wanna have to choose! Playing out the conflict between his 'want' vs his 'need to do' helps me bring out his nervous thinking process.

He's self-reprimanding thoughts We all love an Angsty Leo. It was hinted in the show that he had some self-esteem issues, but who doesn't love ramping it up to 11 for a fic??? That, and he was trapped with Krang this whole time. After hearing he was nothing but trash for five years PLUS the guilt of nearly ending the world, the guy doesn't exactly see himself in a great light you know? This can help clash with point 1, again helping with that 'what he wants' vs 'what he needs to do' inner conflict.

Instinct to Survive / Feral Tendencies This one is super fun. I love feral AUs/tropes. With little to no socialization in the Prison Dimension, Leo's sanity started to slip, leaving his body's natural instincts to become more profound. Plus, with the Krang Parasite, I like to exaggerate how feral/dangerous he could be outside of 'turtle' instincts. (Seeing that parasite hosts in the movie were very violent). Sprinkling in feral moments is just a delicious thrill I love adding, and it makes the insanity factor skyrocket and it's so fun to write 🩵🩵🩵

I - Interesting

Is Leo's thought process interesting to read??? Honestly, I just gun for what I think is the most interesting; Leo's relationship with his brothers (especially Raph), and the cause and effects of his shenanigans.

Also, I liked to experiment with wonky texts to help emphasize key moments or words to grab attention. Mostly because it feels like a fun surprise to read them in my opinion. Though not necessary in writing, I thought using some funky fonts might entice and excite 💙

S- Silly

THE BIG ONE!!! EVERYONE'S FAVORITE!!! 🎉🎊🥳🎉 Something I really love love love about Rise's style is that it's silly It's unique! It's fun! I love that Leo and the others are goofy and have some slap-stick moments. And I wanted to keep that with Leo despite everything. Plus, I ADORE that in this iteration of TMNT, the characters are such showmen. They are DRAMATIC. They are SILLY. And that's something I wanna celebrate!! Plus, as much as I love angst, writing nothing but pure angst is exhausting. (And I'm sure reading pure angst isn't enjoyably to everyone.) Throwing in Silly moments is like a little moment of refreshment to me 🩵

I also like to believe that Leo kept his sense of humor out of sheer SPITE. The 'wipe that stupid grin off your face' line in the movie really stuck with me. I feel like Leo would smile through his fear and still be a clown just to spite Krang One.

E - Existential

At the end of the day, Leo is dealing with a VERY big issue. I felt like the Rise movie did an excellent job portraying the severity of an alien invasion for the setting Rise had. And the weight of the situation would be too great for one person. And this is often what I refer back to to make Leo snap. A relapse in clarity of mind. A moment for the panic and PTSD to come back in full force and make him rely on his instincts. Usually the feral instincts he became more attuned with while fleeing/fighting Krang One. It also goes hand-in-hand with his awareness of his goal (as mentioned in 'Realistic' above).

And that's kinda a word-vomit of how it goes!! Honestly??? The tug-o-war between conflicting thoughts helps me write the madness in his head. It's been super fun and interesting, and I hope it's been fun to read!!! (Though I'm telling you now I will NOT be doing those floating text tables again OOF)

Thank you again for the ask it was super fun to think about ;w; 🩵‼️

#thank u for coming to my Ted Talk #long post #sorry i kinda Went Off (affectionate) on this lmao #does this make sense??? only Pizza Supreme knows 😔#pastel prattling

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darealsaltysam · 4 months

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this is gonna have to hit a VERY specific target audience but cole from ninjago sort of reminds me of chip from just roll with it. like not in a big way but i feel like theyd get along

#and before anyone asks #gillion has zane vibes #and jay is lloyd coded #thank u for coming to my ted talk #ninjago #cole brookstone #just roll with it #jrwi #jrwi chip

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cakesplice · 1 year

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i was put on this earth to spread my silly little agendas

#🍒🍰#au in which everyone loves chiaki #ft her besties and her lovers #idk what their ship name is called but they are dating and in love!#danganronpa #chiaki nanami #chihiro fujisaki #himiko yumeno #maki harukawa #kaede akamatsu #chi + chi + hi = platonic #chi + maki + kaede = romantic #thank u for coming to my ted talk #oh fuck i forgot kaedes hairclips im sososrry #drthh #sdr2 #ndrv3 #roomies #chikaemaki

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pisswizard420 · 1 year

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Nobody:

Mina: im training myself in shorthand, typing, interviews, observation, and remembering everything so johnathan and i can be a power couple

#dracula daily #im just love her #thank u for coming to my ted talk

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soup-sponge · 11 months

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every time i watch this show i fall in love with it all over again.

i am so in love with the way lockwood and george work together like a somewhat well oiled machine

i am so in love with watching lockwood and lucy fall so hard for each other and yet stay blissfully unaware

i am so in love with watching the whole cast grow closer and watching the bonds that form between them and feeling the love that forms there

i am so in love with finding new little details every time i watch (george has a sign on his door with his name on it despite it only being him and lockwood in the house)

i am so in love with these actors and the way they continue to blow my mind with their talent and how well they bring these characters and their journeys to life with such vivacity

i am so in love with the way the cast and crew managed to take this perfect universe and transfer it to the screen in a way that feels so true to it’s origins

i am so in love with this community and the way that we all come together to share the love that we feel for this world

i am so in love with this show as a whole and i REFUSE to accept that we might lose it.

#to everyone reading this i am genuinely so happy that you are here #all of you make this community such an amazing place to be and i love you for it #even if we don’t get a season two i’m so glad to have all of you here in cyberspace with me #okay im done #save lockwood and co #renew lockwood and co #lockwood and co #lockwood & co #anthony lockwood #lucy carlyle #george karim #cameron chapman #ruby stokes #ali hadji heshmati #lockwood and co netflix #juni rambles #thank u for coming to my ted talk

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sinnabee · 6 months

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i forgor to post these!!! heres the undertale doodles from stream the other day, my first time drawing sans undertale in 6 years, hot damn. forgive me if things aren't entirely accurate, i did this all from memory lmao. anyway!!! yeah im still fond of him. and im finally happy with how i draw him, too! :D

#undertale #undertale fanart #sans #sans the skeleton #sans undertale #frisk #papyrus #the first thing is me explaining sans height #i used to like taller sans but ive changed #hes too BIG #i want him puntable for memes #and slightly shorter than average for romance #thank u for coming to my ted talk #my art #doodle #sketch

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ineffably-splendid · 3 months

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Petition to finally give Paul McGann the Doctor Who spin-off (prequel / sequel / inbetween-quel) he deserves!!

#i need it #I loved the night of the Doctor so much #and no having audios is not the same #I need to see that glorious man run around on my screen #paul mcgann #doctor who #8th doctor #eighth doctor #Dw #classic doctor who #is he even Classic Doctor who?#inbetween Doctor who?#thank u for coming to my ted talk #thank you and goodbye #berethil

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redswaberkez · 4 months

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You said you could write a whole essay on the design choses of P1 and P2, could I see that? 👀

time has come and so have i 😈 (and english isnt englishing gonna use translator ahaha sry)

First, i wanted to express their difference between one of them is alive, which is p1, while the other is already dead man walking (p2) For i used p2 - cold tones, like a corpse , for p1 - warmer colour palette

and also them being blue coded bitch and red coded bitch. y'know)

speaking of p2. I like to portray him more dead than alive as i said before. he is pale cadaverous in colour with spreading acrocyanosis (blue fingers, nose and ears). because of this, his hands, his skin, his entire being are cold. don't even try to warm him up. it's useless. he shot himself and the gaping hole in his skull wont stop bleeding, and all his body functions have slowed down significantly. that's why the wound doesn't heal.

the racoon eyes symptom (reaaally dark circles under the eyes) and intraocular hemorrhage (which isn't there, just slightly red eyes instead) are appears in patients with skull fractures and i think gunshot wound also matches the description. also empty lifeless look in faded-green eyes.

p2's nose and goatee are more spikey and straight bc i feel him more sharp-shaped than p1. p2 is like an explosion havoc and spikes 💥💥💥 he WILL show with all his appearance that he is a thorn and dont touch him ot you are dead, BUT he isnt shy, or meek, or sissy and etc. it's hard NOT TO notice him. yes he IS dry, but he likes to annoy people by his existence and the bullet damaged his brains so this also will act up sometimes. Thats why his pose with gun is open with a maniacal smirk. He will shoot u for fun lmao. I gave him earrings and grown hair just bc i wanted to. no hidden meanings in there And honorable mention. his pin is dead too

P1 NOW

his palette is warmer because he is alive. fiery red hair gives an even more dangerous look (like a fly agaric). disterssed black nail polish bc he is the one who is listening to alt nu metal music. imo he would paint his nails. his eyes sparkle with hatred and madness if u look REAALY CLOOSE ((and same is on my the fiiirst art of him))

okay, we zoomed too close. Now you can see his asymmetrical glasses, they give him an even more absurd and virulent look. Something that acts on our subcortex of consciousness and tells us that something is wrong. (aaand i forgor abt p2's sunglasses ooop💀)

p1 appearance isnt too sharp-shaped bc for me. for me. his isnt an explosion like p2. p1 is a predator that will wait for you for HOURS. no sudden movements, everything is precisely calculated. His world is a havoc, but he is the one who will solve this problem. He wont spoil anything in seconds. thats why his posture is closed and strict as opposed to p2. u seee.. they are the opposites.... oooo

his gaze is heavy, he looks at everyone with disgust and distrust. medium-thick eyebrows only add heaviness, unlike p2, his eyebrows are thiiin. p1 is SICK of everyone's bullshit to be honest.

Turtleneck turtleneck... I just like turtlenecks and also character must have a wardrobe with different clothes in it, right? oh and ofc. their crosses. i explained it here

and for the ending AS I MENTIONED BEFOOOORE i gave p1 klayton's (the one w red mohawk) facial traits ON PURPOSE. but for p2... for him i unconsciously gave blue stahli's facial traits (pink one) and when i relized it it was kindaaa eye-opening SJDHFSKJD. circle is closed now. also check out their music its sooo sick i cant

#thats all i can recall fOR NOW #thank u for coming to my ted talk #postal #postal dude #ask

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