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blindmagdalena · 4 months
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I do feel like it's important to also acknowledge that she's deeply traumatised and broken, but Maeve's also very much a shitty person for most of the show too. Starlight even calls her out more than once on how callous and selfish she is, like how Maeve's response to seeing a young woman crying in the bathroom after being sexually assaulted by someone she looked up to was to tell her to suck it up or she'll look weak. I know she's hardly the poster child for healthy coping mechanisms, but she's definitely no saint.
why does she need to be a saint? who ever said she is?
nothing in the show ever tries to tell us that Maeve is a good person. just a damaged one. most of her arc is the discussion of how she used to be a good person, and how she does want to be again.
to me, the callous and jaded version of her we see in s1 is incredible character work. it makes for SUCH an interesting moment when we see that contrasted against her begging Homelander to save flight 37. even two, just these two, please. of course, her begging falls on deaf ears because Homelander is more cruel and dispassionate about human life than Maeve will ever be, and ultimately she gives in and leaves with him, but i feel like that entire sequence SO succinctly sums up why Maeve is the way she is, and what their dynamic is.
“suck it up or you’ll look weak” was a caring moment for Maeve. that was the moment we knew she saw herself in Starlight. she didn’t mock her. she said ‘if you’re going to survive this, you’re going to have to be stronger.’
was it a kind response? a compassionate response? of course not. but at this point the show was illustrating to Starlight exactly what kind of world she has entered. everyone was awful, greedy, perverse, cruel, dog eat dog from the ground up. they’ve been exploited, and now they exploit in turn. a cycle of abuse.
Maeve said it herself: she gave away pieces of herself until there was nothing left to give. when they met, she had nothing left.
and yet. Starlight changed that. Annie reminded her of what it felt like to care about more than her own survival, which for a long time was the only thing she could afford to care about. i know we love Homelander around here, but i think we’ve lost the sense of how truly horrific living under his thumb must have been for her. how it eroded her capacity to care when again and again and again, in exactly the way we see it happen to Annie, she failed to prevent his cruelty.
Maeve serves exactly the narrative purpose she’s intended to: she shows who Starlight could become, and ultimately helps prevent it.
i don’t want saints. i want compelling, nuanced characters. Maeve IS that.
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temp-v · 1 month
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The Boys episode 2x3, minutes 54-56 are my butchie roman empire.
Why, you might ask? I have no time to take screencaps.
1. Butcher puts away the piece of paper that can lead him to Becca.
This isn't him giving up on her, no. But it's an acknowledgement that Butcher both is powerless to reach her right now, and that he has other responsibilities in his life—responsibilities he's been neglecting for her sake.
2. He moves over to the couch, sitting right next to Hughie. It's a big couch. Why you sitting so close, homie? ✨gay✨ He does sit down, and then lean just a little bit closer into Hughie's space.
3. number 2 was mostly a shitpost. The look they share immediately afterwards is not. This is 15 seconds of looking between the two of them, with prolonged eye contact in the middle.
Butcher is looking at Hughie like he matters, like he's someone worth comforting and saving. Like he's also a priority in Butcher's life—one worthy of competing with Becca (as implied by him symbolically putting her away).
Meanwhile, Hughie is looking up at Butcher, and for the first time all season, seeing legitimate care and camaraderie staring back at him.
Let's not mince words: The Boys is a very straight-leaning show.
The queer representation skews Sapphic (thus palatable to the more conservative fans), and the Achillean representation is almost entirely villains. Frenchie is a bisexual man, and that's valid—but the narrative only places importance on his romantic relationships with women. There was even the perfect opportunity for a MMF polycule, which they subverted with labeling the other man Frenchie's best friend.
So, when it comes to queer Achillian ships on The Boys, there's going to be a lack of narrative intent (at least there has been thus far). But hey, that simply allows us to analyze these more sparse scenes and enjoy what we can get out of them.
Do I want more Achillean rep? Yeah. But I'm not expecting apples from a lemon tree, here. If it happens, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Thinking about what you said, I think it's highly probable Madelyn Stillwell raped Homelander when he was 14 or 15.
That's around the age he got stuck at, right?
I think fandom is probably right about her doing it as more of a means to control him than anything, but I think you're probably right about this making it worse and meaning she did much more than has been shown to us on screen.
Regardless, I think this would have to be the case and I would say is even implied, but you are absolutely right that it shouldn't matter why someone decides to be a child molester.
They're still a child molester and whatever reasoning they have, the act is still vile and inexcusable. There even being debate on that in fandom just seems like grooming apologism and abuse dismissal because of favoritism towards Madelyn.
But the results and actions are ultimately the same in the end. It's also implementing a clause to make it mutually exclusionary when it could very well be both.
In the final scene, she swears to him that she loves him but is afraid of him and Homelander thanks her for finally being honest with him before killing her.
What if she was being honest or at least believed her own words when she said she loved him?
And the other scenes between them never struck me as a one time deal or the first time something like them happened. He does look off put in some ways and not quite uncomfortable, but almost like he's regressing when he's with her. Like she maybe used to do that sort of stuff more frequently and hasn't lately.
The scene where they're finally together struck me as more regression too. He immediately apologized to her and she consoled him like it was something that has happened before and she was used to it from him. Even the words she used and the way she said it and the way things were.
"My special sweet boy." "You did good." "That was so lovely."
Do people really believe this or similar can't have happened before with the things she says? To me, they indicate the exact opposite of that thought.
The scene looked almost like it was his first time, and obviously not hers. But the only way that really makes sense is if he is experiencing a moment of regression, possibly to his actual first time with her.
The scene feels like mother and son incest after years of abuse where she's deliberately causing his regression and enjoying the power it gives her over him.
She's a predator and this to me is made pretty clear if not explicit.
OOOH~<3! my darling anon, i wish i could fucking kiss you<3!
you just put into a word exactly why i could never get behind the homewell ship or the homewell type elements being used in other ships in fics that were supposedly trying to *heal* him. easy way to get me to check out for a fic because you *CANNOT* use elements from someone's trauma and abuse, legit full on *exploit* them, and *then* dare to call it or frame it as *healing* and expect it all to be hunky dory, that is just not how that shit works. (at least speaking in terms of medical accuracy/no wonder this shit is so triggery for me, this ain't supposed to be fuckin' disney--)
obliviously or dismissively predatory, so not even in the fun way...
and i want to be clear here, because this isn't me trying to tell people to not like the ship or elements or stop making content for them or whatever the fuck else. i don't care if people have or indulge in toxic guilty pleasure ships or stories here and there (literally have my own), but i always think we should be self aware of our own shit (plus ranting is sometimes good for the soul~<3) and it really *really* shows some people just are not in this case.
i *also* know people don't always mean to set up that way, part of it is a major problem with society (i will get to that~) and the only way for people to be aware is to be *made* aware, butt~
"--you think love is to prey, but i'm sorry i don't pray that way!"
"once i ran to you, now i run from you, this tainted love you've given--"
1000% correct. madelyn, regardless of what happened *off screen* between her and homelander, what we *did* see of her is enough to confirm her as a *predator*, and this was *before* diabolical added to the story behind them. she is extremely predatory as a character, set behind a narcissistic 'mother knows best' filter and a lot of it has nothing to do with homelander.
look no further than starlight~<3
this woman attempted to get a victim of rape to have 'discretion' about what happened to her, TO HER FACE. and every step of the way, tried to bully starlight into 'line' for the company. literally using narcissistic abuse--guilt tripping and shame, questioning her core values, fucking gaslighting (all things we see homelander copy oh deary me what an *odd* cowinkidink!! I WONDER WHERE HE LEARNED IT FROM.)--among others with a 'motherly' frame and 'it's just constructive criticism' (BITCH NO IT AIN'T!!) to manipulate her into doing what vought wanted/what was best for the *company*, NOT for annie.
hell, i'd wager she fucking hired starlight *specifically* because they thought she'd be an *easy* target.
she was *vulnerable*, nearly alone in that big city. her only relative/support system was an extremely religious mother who was *pushing her* to push through any pain or abuse and still wear a smile *for vought* and *for her* because of *fame* and *fortune*, framed as *for annie* when no it def wasn't. (i do like that starlight's mum actually becomes self aware of this and tries to amend the trust she broke, but i digress)
her tapes and everything they showed us about starlight showed us a wide eyed, bright eyed girl who was *hopeful*--but also naive... and as much as it pains me, that would have made her more susceptible to vought's machinations.
and i think the main reason annie didn't completely fall down the vought victims rabbit hole is in part due her truly good nature<3, but also because she met *hughie* (side note, notice how every time hughie and starlight have a falling out or separate from each other, they both start to get *worse*. butcher also tends to swoop in--)
it doesn't get talked about enough, but butcher pulls the same kind of bullshit with hughie (honestly probably why i could never quite feel right about butchie, do still like it but i do prefer it if butcher catches some guilty complexes causa hughie lmao), another good kid who's just had something monumentally traumatic happen to him and is in a super fucking vulnerable place where he'd be easy to manipulate for whatever it is butcher has planned.
he scoped him out and *saw* that, something to *use* to his advantage. and recruited him as such. like a gotdamn predator.
the wrench in his plans (as well as madelyn's) came in *hughie meeting annie* because they *gave* each other a solid support system because they were both good people, dealing with trauma, who found each other~<3 (always a hardcore hughielight shipper)
and butcher even *knows* this, he *knows* annie actually *honestly* and actually HELPS hughie and ruins his plots for him, so of course that mofo is gonna keep trying to ruin everything and break them up. if madelyn had ever discovered hughie, she probably would have done the same shit if in her own faux 'concerned mother' way.
BUTT... you are absolutely right in saying that fandom is highly dismissive or even apologist of what madelyn did to homelander (like they are with fuckin' everything that happened to him honestly) and it doesn't matter what reason she had to abuse him, what should be looked at is the fact of the matter.
did she abuse him? yes or no
the answer is yes, period. asking if she was actually attracted to him or just wanted control becomes a moot point after that, she *still* fucking groomed him. people can go ahead and debate the other factors, but the least they could do is acknowledge the first bit and not use the others to try and deny or 'lessen' the gravity of what she did.
i blame part of this on ableism and victim blaming, but also with how dismissive people *still* are when it comes to male victims of just about anything. christ, we still have people in fandom who have watched the show and *refuse*, not hyperbole, they downright *REFUSE* to acknowledge that homelander could have *any* semblance of victimhood whatsoever. despite the fact that he was literally tortured as a child and fucking groomed and we are given glimpses of these facts on screen, they'll deny any form of nuance and paint it as completely black or white, because he became... pretty much the only thing that fate allowed him to become.
that's not limited to this site even, it's prevalent pretty much in any part of the boys fandom across the web. (which is ironic given the series exists to challenge this sort of thinking)
but how often do we still see cases of a male *child* being sexually assaulted by an adult woman and the fucking judge going, "wElL sHe'S cAnDy So He PrObAbLy LiKeD iT"?
thankfully, not as often anymore. but if i'm honest? TOO FUCKING MANY (once is fucking too many) and the thought is still INSANELY pervasive. and again, it leads back to the question.
did she abuse him? yes or no
it doesn't fucking matter if the kid 'liked it' or not, MA'AM, THIS IS A FUCKING CHILD--
*children can NOT consent*
or in homelander's case, an emotionally stunted extremely mentally ill person. and ALSO a child at one point.
*likewise, mentally ill/special needs/disabled people and informed consent is an issue all its own. all of these are among the most vulnerable to abuse and the least likely to get justice for it*
if madelyn had been a man, nobody would question this. (who am i kidding, i'd like to think that but i am well aware there are apologists of all kinds that would not give a shit and be equally gross about it.)
and you are def right, it *feels* 1000% like *regression* in the scenes he's with her. and now that you mention it, the scene where they're together?? oh, fuck me. anon... that is *dark* and it fucking hurts but you may be right.
it *was* absolutely the first time *we* as an audience saw them together, and i think that may skew the perception about. there *was* absolutely an effort to regain control over him in that instance. but the things she said and the way it plays out... no
plainly, just no... it *does not* feel like the very first time that has happened... it feels like something that is *rare* between them. but definitely something that's happened *before*, and perhaps something she maintains as *rare* specifically to keep a hold on him. (could this be one reason for the diabolical episode?? to further implicate this?)
and even his use of doppelganger hinted at this cause think of it.
a 'madelyn' that is *just* for him, *only* the parts of her that... gave him attention, the bits he *liked*. what she more than likely fed to him as *scraps* to keep him crawling back for more. but because it was never genuine, the confusion from the ratio with abuse was thrown off, and the entire illusion that it ever meant anything was shattered prior (along with stormfront manipulating him), well...
"i give you all a boy could give you, take my tears and that's not nearly--"
down to his hatred and jealousy of teddy. we have to imagine what things were like before she had him but i get the feeling homelander got a lot more attention before then. it was well over 20 years and people honestly think in all that time *nothing* else happened??? things were 'normal' and then boom, *random* mommy kink??? hell, even the kid was maybe just as much a means to 'reset' the balance and help her maintain control as he was for future profit for vought.
OW.
yes. madelyn is a predator. homelander is her groomed victim. and i don't think it gets mentioned enough in this discourse, but one of the biggest reasons predators prey on the vulnerable or even want to make a fucking victim of someone is *because* of the power trip it gives them over that person. (hell, homelander fucking does this *specifically* because it has been done to him his entire life!)
and *even former abuse victims* may not realize it when they pull this sort of shit. i'm not gonna dive into that because it is a fucking *depressing* can of tapeworms, but let's just say i've been there, i know people who've been there, and i know people who know people who've been there. so this shit is a big fucking problem for people when we don't notice it and massively persistent circle jerk of perpetuation.
but it's still fucking predation, it doesn't make a difference if it's done by someone with power/control kink, narcissistic disorder or 'mommy/daddy dearest' vibes, pedophilic disorder, etc. it still fucking harmful and victimizes someone (especially when they are unaware/cannot consent to the powerplay OH FUCK--)
goddammit... i just realized the problem lmao... PISS. POOR. BDSM ETIQUETTE. GOTDAMN.
and trauma management i guess.
basically, people tag dom/sub or top/bottom when they should be tagging a 'control' or 'abuse kink'. dom/sub play relies on the informed consent of both parties while 'control' relies on the lack there of (informed consent) from the 'sub'. and in homelander's case, this shit is particularly bad. (readers need to be given informed consent too!! always tag yo shit y'all!!)
which to be fair, ain't exactly the fault of the ship itself, but more so the lack of awareness/common dismissal on it. it's really hella normalized/often advertised as 'just a quirky lil guy with a mommy kink' when that's not even remotely the only thing at play here and it goes way deeper and darker than that. you toss in homelander's other traumas and it's just... it's a goddamn mess.
and now i understand why i am so incredibly grossed out by fics that push homelander through more of this nonsense (or worse) with a new person (any person) and never bother addressing the trauma he has *directly* related to this shit. (because my traumas directly deal in the control shit yayyyyyyyyyyyyy~... UGH--)
well.
call me a pussy if you must (i am a pussy and a cunt and a dick and an asshole, i wear it shamelessly~<3) but i just ain't all that interested in fics that only exchange *handlers* for homelander instead of actually help him (when that's what they'll claim to want to do). seriously, lining him up with another 'madelyn' of all things just leaves me wishing he could *get away* from his shiny new abuser (because that is what she was, and would ideally be the inevitable outcome anyhow!)
homelander needs at least *one* honest *friend* who genuinely doesn't want anything from him to help him unblur the lines of informed consent that madelyn intentionally muddled *before* he can even make informed consent when it comes to this shit, especially if we wanna *actually* heal that boi (all he's had is more people capitalizing on it over and over if not just people with no clue of the minefield they were navigating)
he'd need to be able to experience true *independence* and *agency* before he decided they were things he actually wanted to put in someone else's hands or 'give up', so to speak, both of which would come *after* healing.
and if i'm indulging in toxicity with him, i'ma make him *get back at his abusers*~<3, give him a chance at some revenge porn for once and make it so much worse for *them*, not the guy who literally never had a chance or got to breathe his own breath (and def tagged properly of course).
but of all the whack ass takes i could see in the sea of fandoms, ANYONE in that position over this boi (or any character in similar situation) as he is *unhealed* is *NOT* his ally and doesn't give an honest shit about him, it's 100% all about *control* over him (which i know is a huge kink for tons of people and hypernormalized in society, especially heteronormativity, but again, trauma central for me so it'd be really fuckin' nice if people learned the difference and also started tagging this shit~<3)
fun for some, but not for me.
i've always generally preferred push/pull powerplay that purposely leaves the question of 'control' open/eventually balances it and helps empower and individualize both characters to be the best versions of themselves, i want them to learn and grow together. positive masculinity/femininity and emotional maturity are way more of a turn on for me and i want these bois and gurls and inbetweens to graduate to *men* and *women* and fairly *reasonable adults* when i write them, while preserving their core personalities and the things that make them *them*.
i also don't view 'bottomhood' as 'punishment'/something to use to deliberately rob a person of control/self determination (as much as we may joke about it, and also that is just rape with a pretty veil that at least deserves to be properly tagged) and i normally focus on empowering them just as much if not more than my tops so it's just damn weird to me to see that kind of mentality get popularized on any character and leik.
gotdamn, first off, what the shit, and second, i realize getting to the places i wanna go reasonably and responsibly takes hard work and pretty intricate writing but please lawd satan tell me i ain't the only one to feel this way, PLEASE!?
but very good point about it possibly being both/more than one element here. control is more likely to be *one* reason, but not *the* only reason and it could very well be a factor of both attraction and need to/getting off on the idea of controlling him (which still stems back to attraction, honestly, even if she didn't feel it towards him the sense of him being a child, it would still mean she feels it towards him in the sense of him being vulnerable which is just as awful, honestly.)
and i do think his stunted emotional maturity is 100% indicative that something *very* specific happened to him around that age (*maybe* she waited till after the debut??), but among all the other trauma, that is actually a question worth asking. why *then* and not any of the other times? he's got no shortage of trauma for his brain to pick from, so what the hell happened then?
as far as it feeling like incest? lil bit, yeah (if pseudo, which obviously we know it's not but i do think the vibe there is actually intended), suffice to say that madelyn is to homelander what billy's father was to him...
and y'know... i gotta admit, knowing this i am surprised we don't see all that much of butcher being shipped with his father because that and homewell are pretty much the same thing on opposite spectrums.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH--
have fun y'all, as always butt leik... have fun responsibly--gawddammit i never thought i'd be *that* old fart but i guess i am... well i can still be fun about it... tipsy bartender is fun lmao<3<3<3 (altho these subjects are decidedly less fun... *sigh of the long suffering*...)
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deliciouskeys · 3 months
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🤔🤔🤔
Hmmm. I actually think Homelander does have a grandiose sense of self-importance. But if Billy Butcher doesn’t lack empathy, I don’t think you can say HL completely lacks it. He has more than SB toward his progeny at the very least. I would also argue keeping his relationship with SF going that long when she was pretty incapacitated requires some level of empathy but I guess that’s contestable.
Anyway, this book just arrived, so maybe I should read it cover to cover before I start excerpting stuff from the middle. @blaacknoir there is a whole chapter on Noir and his relationship to other characters in this book and it’s good!
Get it on Voughtazon.
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ishomieokay · 2 months
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This may sound crazy, but I've been thinking about it and I'm convinced that Stillwell was the one who decided to use Homelander's blanket as part of the scenography.
I mean, think about it. Nothing at the house was real. Why was the blanket even on the set? However you look at it, it makes no sense unless someone brought it along intentionally. And no one on the set knew about Homelander's real childhood except Madelyn.
Did she know how it would affect him? Taking into account how scared she was of him, probably not. Or maybe she did, and was willing to take the risk just to provoke an emotional reaction for the cameras. Yes, I am convinced people at Vought are that evil.
Either way it just goes to show how little regard both her and everyone at the company had for his feelings. He was really just a toy to them 😞
I mean, imagine that you were held captive, tortured and experimented on for years, and then when you are finally free(ish) someone brings you the blanket you used back at your old cell? Like, seriously that shit was psychopathic. Literally meltdown inducing. I would NOT have handled that as well as Homelander did, and that's shocking tbh, because it's Homelander.
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xieyaohuan · 2 months
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Stan Edgar's and Homelander's relationship: my two cents
Tl;dr: Stan Edgar's show-canon relationship with Homelander presumes (and loosely establishes) the relationship between comics Homelander and James Stillwell, including James' Stillwell's extreme confidence vis-à-vis Homelander, which explains a lot of Stan's more insane choices provoking Homelander, but I remain naively hopeful that the show also means to show us in the end that he has miscalculated.
Following up on this post trying to figure out what the hell Stan Edgar's end game is with Homelander, I just want to add a small point to what I think is an excellent discussion because I think you can't really answer the question of Stan's intentions via-à-vis Homelander without establishing what the show-canon relationship between the two is supposed to be (even if the execution is done badly). Personally, I think show canon tries to do one of two things: 1. take the canon relationship in the comics and twist it by having "James Stillwell"/Stan Edgar miscalculate or 2. take the canon relationship in the comics and keep "James Stillwell"/Stan Edgar as the mastermind. My guess (and hope) is that they are going for number 1, but who knows, maybe there's some secret third option.
Either way, what is clear is that the show is trying to replicate, in some form, the dynamic that exists between Homelander and James Stillwell in the comics. That's apparent when Stan Edgar tells Starlight that Homelander will stay in line as long as he is in charge, which is supposed to establish that Stan Edgar is 100% confident in his ability to manage Homelander no matter what.
(It is also hinted at from Homelander's perspective when they replicate the comics plot point that Homelander is confused by/scared of his blood pressure/heart rate/whatever other readings he gets, and when he wonders if Stan Edgar is the headpopper because he thinks he must be a very powerful supe due to his lack of fear.)
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Seriously, I think the sentence above is central to understanding the relationship. BUT, interestingly, when he says "and we both know why", the viewer doesn't know why, and this is where the show could have really done a better job explaining it.
This is a problem with many of the points taken directly from the comics because they are casually imposed on the show without properly "translating" them to the new medium and the new storyline to actually make them significant to the show (instead of just mentioning them on the side). Another good example of this is Maeve's alcoholism. We see her drinking in S1E1 during a work meeting, then we don't see her drinking in meetings again though she still has occasional drinks, and in S3, she tells Butcher she's been sober for X months. But that's really all we see of it -- it never becomes a major point in her character arch and gets lost easily. So from a storytelling perspective, that's dissatisfying. Either weave the point properly into the character's arch, or leave it out entirely.
So anyway, back to the main point, which is that the show presumes the relationship from the comics and makes it visible here and there. I think they do a slightly better job with Homelander and his relationship with Stan "James Stillwell" Edgar than with Maeve's relationship with alcohol, but the point is still not translated very well. However, what we can take away from it is that for whatever Stan Edgar does, he always proceeds from the assumption that he has Homelander 100% under control, same as when James Stillwell tells an enraged Homelander, who has come to kill him, to do it already because he is bored out of his mind by his rant.
That is the level of confidence that should be assumed behind every single of Stan's actions that affect Homelander. My personal take is he takes some joy in humiliating Homelander and getting away with it, especially since this person he considers largely irrelevant to the company's bottom line has just given him a ton of extra work.
I did also consider the possibility that Stan is doing this strategically to show who the real boss is and bring Homelander back under his thumb, and I guess that's possible given that he has just had to deal with two Homelander contingencies in a row -- the supe terrorists and HL discovering Ryan. That would seem like a good time to reassess his prior assumptions about his control over HL. But I do think his confidence in his ability to manage HL is supposed to be taken as real and not just an act in S3, so my personal headcanon is that Stan is being petty. Homelander annoys him, so why only punish him once if he can do it -- cost free in his mind -- over and over again?
Anyway, my hope is that the show is going with having Stan Edgar miscalculating instead of masterminding. I don't want a "Stan as puppet master who saw every single one of Homelander's moves coming" storyline, but based on the way the scene between Homelander and Stan Edgar on 99 was done, miscalculation also seems more likely, because Stan does slam the glass down on the table as he leaves the room, which I'm guessing is meant to indicate that despite his blood pressure and calm demeanor, his blasé attitude was an act and he is waking up to the fact that, oops, he did miscalculate.
That doesn't answer all the questions, such as why choose Starlight over Maeve, but I mean, the answer to that one is pretty evident from a storytelling perspective: if you have a central heroine and a character who will leave the show at the end of the Season 3, which of of these two characters are you going to put at the center of a major conflict? Obviously the one who is your main heroine. Bringing in a new person mid-season just for this would be... a very questionable choice in any writer's room.
Anyway, I would also argue that in this case, it doesn't really do much harm to Stan's character building and story arch. It's totally in line with his own and Vought's overall ethics that they would discard a woman who, by industry standards, is old, and go for a fresh face, their rising star, a person Stan presumes to still be impressionable and malleable -- he knows how to work with people like that. Sure, she may not be as young as Vicky was when he got to her, but it's reasonable he would assume he could shape her more easily than Maeve, so I really don't see any plothole here.
Starlight's relationship with The Boys is irrelevant because Stan canonically does not see The Boys as a threat. He may not love Butcher, but he's good enough to form a temporary alliance with, and Stan certainly does not view him as a existential threat to himself or to Vought. That may be another miscalculation, but for the time being, given Butcher's hyperfocus on Homelander and his inability to see the big picture about Vought, it seems fair enough. Stan also doesn't believe that he's giving Starlight a whole lot of power with the new position. The co-captains are performing monkeys in his mind (just like Homelander himself has always been), so the risk, to him, is not much higher than having her join The Seven in the first place.
It certainly doesn't answer the question of why Stan put Stormfront in The Seven given what must be a very complex relationship between the two. Clearly, she's influential at the company, clearly, they work together (she does the high risk stuff for him so that he can maintain plausible deniability and distance himself from the ugliest parts of Vought's medical experiments), clearly, they do not like each other (unless there's something we don't know). But perhaps that's their deal: Stormfront does the ugly stuff for Stan, Stan gets her closer to her beloved Nazi-ideal-conforming potential son-in-spirit. Obviously, their exact relationship is never explained directly. It's either a plothole or a plotline that was left open because it will be closed later, or a plotline that was left open and will remain open because the way shows are written means not all loose ends are tied up in the end. Personally, I don't think we'll see this one resolved.
Anyway, best case scenario, the show will deliver as a twist on "James Stillwell" as someone who miscalculated on multiple fronts (mainly Homelander, possibly Butcher, but that's probably just my pipe dream lol) thanks to his overconfidence, and gets destroyed along with Vought as a consequence. Worst case scenario, this will all fizzle out and not be resolved properly as the show descends deeper into the contemporary American politics non-plotline.
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plasticfangtastic · 3 months
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So am in the process of writing an Ashlander/Homeash fic and it made me wonder why Homie picked Ashley of all ppl to replaced Madelyn like based on their S2 interactions it seems to me that they hardly knew each other much prior to him personally requesting/selecting Ashley for the role which even surprised her.
Like i imagine he probably picked her bcuz she had been recently fired and thus had no loyalty nor love for Madelyn and i guess the old guard of Vought, so she would be greatful to him and thus loyal to him solely which he then used intimidation and violence almost inmediately to make sure she knew her place, which its weird to me how easy it was for him to reveal his true self so quickly...
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But like how aware was he of her? Obviously he saw her in the office after all she had worked her way up enough in the company ladder that she was handed Starlight (a member of the Seven of all ppl) to support and was probably working super closely to Madelyn (as her assistant)up to that point but what made her relevant enough for him to even remember her name ... personally i like to imagine that he overheard her exchange with starlight after she got fired and like her spunk (specially cuz it be fun to break her afterwards)
I mean they have a rather weird relationship thats hella intense for no reason... am still baffled that he would leave Ryan with her if he dislikes her so much or how he didnt care one bit about having a boner in front of her... and she on the other hand copies him and even tries to dress in matching outfits at times.
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I legit wanna see an ep (or some video) of just their actual everyday office interactions...
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homielander · 2 years
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i love how disarming hughie is repeatedly shown to be to so many people because he actually treats them like human beings (which is exceptionally rare on this show).
a stranger cries next to him on a park bench and he immediately asks if she's all right and gives her heartfelt advice. translucent tries to murder him and hughie still goes to his cell with water. butcher is an asshole to hughie all around, but hughie's refusal to let him treat the rest of the group (frenchie, MM, kimiko — all of whom are little better than strangers to him at that point) like they're disposable actually reminds butcher he has a heart (in s2 lol). a-train murders hughie's girlfriend, shows no remorse for it, then tries to murder him, but hughie still opts to pump his heart back to life. (and it works out, because a-train repays the favour in season 2 by providing them information on stormfront's history.) hughie treats soldier boy with basic kindness and soldier boy opens up to him about his dreams of settling down and a family with crimson countess. when he negotiates with mindstorm (whose ability literally depends on making eye contact!!), hughie uncovers his eyes and even tosses him some clothes, just so mindstorm can retain some semblance of dignity and connection.
it makes the v24 plot so much more heartbreaking because hughie's greatest strength has been his humanity all along.
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the-bensolos · 2 years
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Something something the contrast between Annie and Hughie and him feeling like he constantly needs to save her because he feels emasculated by Annie constantly saving him, and then Kimiko choosing to get her powers back to be able to protect and save Frenchie and him accepting that choice. Knowing that she needs to do that for herself and he’s not emasculated by that and he’s more just concerned for her and her well-being and it’s the way that contrasts with the way they view masculinity and how masculinity interacts with them. Something something performative ally ship and feminism versus real ally ship and feminism. Something something toxic masculinity is in the people who claim “actually I am a feminist” instead of just being feminist.
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lithiumache · 2 years
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just finished watching 3x06. one thing about the last two episodes that stayed in my mind was the inevitable comparison between annie and hughie’s relationship and kimiko and frenchie’s relationship. both hughie and frenchie are not supes, they’re both physically weak men (in comparison to their girlfriends and also to the men around them) in love with super powerful women, they both have to deal with violence, they both have not-so-good relationships to their fathers... hell, even their names have the same cute shortening (-ie).
and yet they deal with these situations in such different ways. I think the biggest difference comes from the fact that frenchie is not interested in making himself seem powerful in the eyes of other men - he cares mostly about doing his job, and after meeting kimiko, he cares more about her safety and happiness than about any delusions of power. even when (spoilers!) nina is trying to make him feel bad and ashamed about being submissive, about taking orders so well, he is not really concerned and we as an audience don’t see any indications that he has any shame about his sexual preferences - he cares more that kimiko will think him a monster for the violent things he has actually done.
meanwhile, hughie is all ego. male ego, to be more specific. he doesn’t care about what annie wants, in fact, he ignores her multiple times. he is completely caught up in his own fantasy of being a hero, being powerful and being “worthy of respect”.  he even says in the last episode, after taking compound V, “now i can finally help!”, as if he wasn’t helping them before, as if he was useless because he was phisically weaker. in the end, his male fantasies are not so different from homelander’s. he doesn’t care about building a better world, or even about destroying supes - he cares about the way other people perceive him.
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kimikofrenchie · 2 years
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screaming crying throwing up over the difference between frenchie kissing kimiko in 204 as a reflection of the imbalance in their relationship and his attempts to “save” her vs kimiko in 305, her powers gone, kissing frenchie as an expression of her happiness and freedom 
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blindmagdalena · 5 months
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What do you think Homelander’s attraction to Becca was? It’s not like at the Christmas party she was the only woman there, and by that point he had no idea who Butcher was. The actress that plays her is attractive, but the later scenes (season two and even just their initial introduction) between them suggest there’s something more to his attraction.
It’s obvious in the season two scenes that Homelander and Becca have, he has some lingering attraction. I think that’s primarily led by the fact that they have a son together and Homelander desperately wants a family, and also that Homelander is looking for a new woman to attach himself onto since Madelyn died. Perhaps he just wants what he can’t have especially knowing that she’s still in love with Butcher and he wants someone to love him that unconditionally. The main reason I thought of this is because in my opinion, Homelander isn’t the type of character to do something without a reason. Usually he has one even if it’s not a good reason.
ah yes, potentially one of the most contentious/controversial plot points in the fandom. canon gives us VERY little to go on here, so excuse me while I just ramble my take on the whole situation. i extrapolate a good amount. everyone you ask is going to have a different answer, and each one is as valid as any other. this is simply mine!
Homelander's greatest sin isn't wrath or pride. It's envy. He is a bottomless well of yearning for what he doesn't have, and he is viciously covetous. We see this play out most plainly in his one sided beef with a literal baby.
When he meets Becca, she's beautiful, quick witted, strong willed and independent. A career woman. Not only that, she's helping manage his career by handing his social media, which is part of his public perception. Very important to him! He already has a ton of wires crossed when it comes to the women in his life acting as both coworkers/Vought employees and emotional surrogates, i.e. Maeve, Madelyn and Vogelbaum. Plus who knows how many nanny mommies.
At this point, we don't know how long he's been with Maeve, but we have at least another 6 years before the pair breaks up. He's enjoying Maeve, but he wants more. He always wants more. Maybe he wants a wife, and she's refusing him that.
But Becca is a wife. He sees that ring on her finger and it boils his blood that he doesn't have that classic, romantic symbol of commitment. Of love. Worse yet when he meets her husband! The figurative boogeyman. The baby stealing his mommy and her milk. We're not there in the story yet, but we do see a trend here. It likely didn't start here: imagine what it was like for him to find out Vogelbaum had kids. Kids he loved. I bet that gutted Homelander. It should have been him.
Homelander, in his mind, can never win. Can never have enough. Anyone else having means they are directly taking away what should be his. It could be that it was never really about Becca specifically so much as the archetype she represented.
That carries us into season 2 where Becca takes on an additional archetype that Homelander is now lacking: mother. I think you're right on the money that a good amount of his attraction comes from the fact she's the mother of his son.
He falls pretty deep down the fantasy family rabbit hole with Becca, though. He not only inserts himself into their lives and routine, he takes a renewed interest in Becca. He snoops through her things, smells her clothes, and engages with her well beyond just interacting with Ryan. Then comes the scene where he finds her hidden stash of Billy merch, and the fantasy is shattered. She's still in love with another man. She's a wife, but she's not his wife. She's the mother to his son, but she's not someone who will fulfill those emotional needs for him. I've made this comparison before, but it's very reminiscent to the breakdown he has when he sees his baby blanket in his fake childhood home. He moves on VERY easily to Stormfront when she not only presents herself as a mother to her own child, but a potential mother for his child.
I'm backtracking a little here, but when Maeve called Homelander over from Billy and Becca at the party, I always got the vibe she was doing so quite purposefully. I wonder how much of their early relationship was Maeve feeling like she was performing damage control. Managing him, curbing his destructive behaviors. Did she see that covetous edge in his eye when he would look at Becca, at her ring? Did she try to tell him to leave her alone, play it like a joke?
We have the deleted scene where Maeve says the reason they broke up was because he couldn't keep it in his tights, but we don't really have any other explicit instances or even mentions of Homelander liberally sleeping around. Did she know about Becca, or at the very least did she make an educated guess when the woman disappeared? Maybe she felt like he did it to spite her. Did she know about Madelyn?
Ultimately we know Maeve becomes complicit in his crimes. She feels her hands are dirty with the same blood. She becomes jaded, she's no longer the hero. She's just an accessory. I definitely don't think it started that way, though.
anyways, I hope this somewhat answered your question! I have a tendency to jump around a lot and word vomit, but this generally covers my take on why that all went down the way it did.
Honestly, I would love to write a fic someday that digs more into my thoughts here. Becca deserves so much more than what she got from the narrative.
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The Boys would so have a superhero whose superpower is something to do with being an excellent sniper, like expert mode, can see really well, manipulate the winds and air speed, the whole shebang. Except the dude (gn) has faceblindness and in true fashion in The Boys universe, is terrible at killing the correct person. So they'd have some indiscriminate murderer loose (again), shooting random people they think are the one the hit is out on, because that whole show is a monkey's paw on steroids.
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Honestly, kimiko should just rebel, follow her own rules and kicks Billy's ass because losing her arm to Zoey could mean the boys is no better than the shining light of liberation because wtf is she doing trying to kidnap a child (Zoe) from her parent? She's no better than the people who kidnapped her and kenji and she's no better than Billy either! Plus, there is a scene of kimiko jumping out the window, holding her injury. So, it must means she's going to possibly going to tell Billy to tell him to shod off and go live her own life; Get some modicum of peace with Frenchie maybe.
honestly? yeah.
and i wish i wish i wish, BUTT. sadly kimiko's got her own complexes and things she doesn't understand due to the way she was... well... stolen from her family and forced to be a soldier.
she's in survival mode, she is almost always in survival mode. she's been treated as a weapon and tends to act as a weapon because she had her humanity robbed from her. in some ways, her situation has a lot of depths that make her very similar to homelander in these regards
except~ kimiko is actually horrified of what she's capable of and what her 'survival mode' and 'weaponization' end up doing (most of the time). and the thing was, she *initially* blamed the v for it, but the underlying cause is her unaddressed *trauma* that puts her in survival mode in the first place (hence why she came to terms with it *sorta* and asked annie to get her the v again, realizing that v itself was a *tool* that she could use to protect the people she cares about).
the boys is no better than shining light *BECAUSE* of butcher. all of them want better and to do better and actually help. frenchie, kimiko, annie, hughie, mm, even mallory--
except butcher.
butcher just wants destruction, and he doesn't care what the cost is and is willing to sacrifice others or use them like pawns or weapons to get what he wants. he ends up being an especially frustrating character because you know that he has these valid grievances and plights and *could* actually do the right thing and give a shit about other people.
but he doesn't. especially the people who actually help him. he treats kimiko and starlight especially, but even his team, like GARBAGE~ with absolutely ZERO excuses for it
and even worse than that, he *uses* these plights as a means to garner sympathy and hide from any criticism for what he does like the gotdamn fucking daddy issues coward he is. he uses his own trauma legit in all the wrong worst ways possible not just to control and manipulate others, but as an excuse to be his absolute worst self and continue spiraling into all that hatred and self loathing.
AND it works!! people are more likely to excuse everything that butcher does! there's a part of me that blames fandom misogyny (for the mistreatment to our precious lady supes) at least a lil, but i also think it's in part to the story being told a good chunk from butcher's *side* of things, but the whole point is that butcher gets *proven wrong*. he is wrong from the start and is a massive fucking hypocrite, and the reader/viewer is supposed to come to this realization as the story unfolds and reveals more about him.
don't even get me started on the chaos in fandom right now, it's a fuckin' mess post gen v. i CAN NOT with the genocide apologism--
BUTCHER AND SHETTY AND CATE ARE ALL FUCKIN' WRONG--.
ANYWHO.
homelander, to some degree has some similar issues. except he's *not* self aware about the fact. he's also battling a different demon with the subconscious thought that he is wholly *unloveable* (which is why he is incapable of recognizing vought as his abuser and still seeks approval and admiration from those around him. he is seeking the means to love himself without realizing he can't actually learn to do that through others)
homelander is also easily manipulated, as to some degrees, is kimiko. hence where scumbag extraordinaire billy butcher comes in. butcher is slowly dragging down homelander to his fucked up level. kimiko and the boys are resisting because they are seeing through butcher's nonsense and dishonesty for once
hard agree that going after zoe isn't just a bad wrong stupid move, it is fucked beyond belief because when you get to the point when you start targetting actual fucking *CHILDREN*--.
there is no excuse for that. ever. EVER. that is why we have the geneva conventions, and yeah. butcher MAKES the boys leik actual fucking terrorists, but that is kinda the point ain't it?
i'm still hoping it's at least *kinda* a raw deal/wrong place, wrong time kinda thing where zoe is there but they weren't actually going after *her* specifically or that butcher withheld certain details/claimed they'd be *saving* her just to get his team on board (as per typical butcher fashion. UGH), but i mean... kidnapping a kid def ain't something butcher wouldn't lower himself to doing.
boi gets worse every season and he started out pretty damn bad.
but BOI, am i lookin' forward to the HELL to come~<3<3<3 ;)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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deliciouskeys · 1 year
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My sexual orientation is Billy Butcher asking Homelander “Where’s your fuckin rage?!” when he figures out how deeply, sinisterly, and codependently Vought have their claws planted into him.
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pareidoliajules · 2 years
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So after last night's episode of the boys (which I have Several thoughts about), I feel I simply must say it again: Antony Starr is an incredible actor.
I'll hold off on my character analysis for the moment to just talk about how Antony Starr used his physicality in the most important scenes - starting with where he finds out Noir noped the fuck out.
Not only is he scared - actual, real fear, just like we saw when he first saw the camera footage of Soldier Boy - but he's hurt. And not just in the "ow that bruised my ego" way. He almost starts crying. You can see the tears in his eyes. When he leans in close to The Deep, you can literally see the reflection in the shine of his eyes. Another actor's attempt at this would've felt out of character or melodramatic, but with Antony Starr, the audience clocks it as maybe one of five instances of genuine emotion from a man whose most common "emotions", if you can call it that, are "murder", "sex", and "[preens]".
Which brings me to the next scene. I was already like, oh, shit, this is gonna be his best episode to date (which is saying something, because again, Antony Starr Is So Good). The scene where he's talking to himself in the mirror has so many tiny, beautiful expressions that say so much. My boyfriend fiance pointed out that the mirror scene was a definite homage to Willam DeFoe's Green Goblin (specifically the "Yahtzee!" moment), and I think it's fair to say that they're definitely on the same level (and Willam DeFoe is also So Good). For perhaps the first time, we see Homelander, stripped. He is entirely alone. He has no one to perform for; no one to impress or intimidate. He is only himself, but even still, he is divided.
...I said I wouldn't get into character discussion in this post. So. Antony Starr had two difficult tasks: playing off himself (instead of another human to work with), and playing two drastically different emotions. For the sake of clarity, I'll refer to them as Homelander and Mirror!Homelander.
We see Homelander's "last shred of humanity" more clearly here than anywhere. Antony Starr portrays a victim of abuse faced with his abuser, where their abuser is positioning themself as his savior. Antony Starr is a tall, sturdy man, but he makes himself look so small, so young as Mirror!Homelander confronts him. He is a child, scared of the world outside and the world within (Mirror!Homelander). We see Homelander sans bravado, sans ego, sans everything that makes Homelander the character we've seen over the past 2.5 seasons, and instead of seeming out of character, or seeming expected (in the sense of oh no the poor little meow meow had a tough childhood), it opens up a crater of emotion, of depth, of pity for this monster of a person. That would not be possible with another actor, I am positive of this.
Now let's talk about Mirror!Homelander. This is more what we expect from Homelander - big emotions. Anger. Righteous indignation. But it doesn't start that way. It starts soft, the way Homelander tried to approach Ryan - the way he would speak to a scared child. It ramps up, it borrows language from Stormfront, and it comes again to this idea of purity, of being clean. That humanity, even the humanity within Homelander himself - the humanity that has been more or less hidden behind...all of the everything - that humanity is the problem. This is an abuser talking to his victim; telling this scared little boy that he will help and he will protect him from the outside world (and whatever the "bad room" is, which I Will Not talk about right now, I won't!!!), just so long as the little boy does exactly what he says. Mirror!Homelander is the worst of what we've seen of real Homelander, and again, by another actor, it would have felt...overdone, or at least obvious. But Antony Starr's performance makes it clear that whatever pain he inflicts on the world around him (and it is a lot of pain!), he's also inflicting pain on himself, to the point where Homelander has to completely divorce himself from the source of it.
In the last scene with Homelander, after the fight, we only see real!Homelander, standing stock still in front of that mirror. What is Mirror!Homelander saying to him? How is he explaining what just happened to himself? How does he justify the fact that he ran away from a fight between his should-be-dead hero, his nemesis, and a naked twink?
What is Homelander doing to himself, that none of us can see?
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