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bookshelfdreams · 6 months

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Hey I like a lot of the takes you have regarding the pirate show so I wanted to ask for your opinion on smth that's been bothering me for a while:

I have a deep seated dislike for Hamilton. Twinkifying the fucking founding fathers, romanticizing slave abusers and overall villainizing the wrong people while others (Hamilton at the front naturally) gets sung at. Speaking of singing - I really hate it. Shipping (i want to repeat) the founding fathers, the blatant white washing bla bla bla. Anyway those are all known problems and better people have said it smarter before and that isn't really my point

It's the fact that a friend of mine recently brought up that Ofmd pretty much is the same and I shouldn't scream so loud in my glass house. Inaccurate historically speaking, the blatant ignoring of the slave owning that the real Stede and Edward did and so on and so forth. Minus the singing perhaps if we ignore Frenchies and Izzys

So. Does it make me a hypocrite to like ofmd so much but despise the mere mention of Hamilton? It's a thing I'm really stressed about lately and that kind of ruined my joy about finally getting season 2. I would love to hear your opinion. or that of your followers for that matter.

Thank you 😊

oh thank YOU because I do feel that this is an interesting thing to examine and we do not talk about it enough.

I have never seen Hamilton, or listened to the songs (except some snippets). I have never been involved in the fandom. I really, really can't speak to what the musical itself did wrong and right. But I will say this: There was a reason it got as popular and received the critical acclaim that it did. I can't speak to how it addresses the systemic injustice baked into the USA from the very beginning, and I do have a suspicion that it glosses over a lot of uncomfortable truths. But I also feel it is important that we divorce the source material from the fandom it spawns because ultimately, Miranda isn't responsible for Hatsune Miku Binder Jefferson, or the whole hivliving debacle.

Just as David Jenkins isn't responsible for the handwaving of slavery in fanworks, or the great Izzy Hands Debate, or whitewashing in fanart, or shitty, racist headcanons of the characters of colour, or whatever deranged scandal is yet to come to light. This is true for all fandoms; criticizing fandom dynamics is a very different conversation from criticizing the canon.

Let's focus on the canon here, though, because defending the fandom is pointless, and not something I want to do. Curate your experience.

The first thing to say is: If you like ofmd but don't like Hamilton, that's not hypocritical at all, that's first and foremost a matter of taste. Things are good when we like them and bad when we don't. We don't have to find objective reasons for it.

If the fact that the historical Stede Bonnet was a slaveowner, and the historical Blackbeard also participated in the slave trade, are dealbreakers for someone, that's valid. People have every right to be uncomfortable with that. The conversation could end at this point, if we want it to (I don't because I love to hear myself talk).

If we look at the historical figures a little closer the first stark difference is the cultural context in which they exist. The founding fathers seem to be extremely mythologized in the american consciousness but also, are understood to be real historical people. The founding myth is fundamental to the way in which the USA perceives itself (that is, as a beacon of freedom and democracy), and it's pretty hard to reconcile that with the bloodshed and human misery it was founded on. It's uncomfortable; and it's not just an American problem. Every western nation/former colonial power has quite literal corpses in their closets they'd rather not talk about (just so you don't think I'm getting on a high horse about the famed Erinnerungskultur here; go ask a german person about Lothar von Trotha and what he did to the Nama and Herero to receive a blank stare). The difference is, that the founding fathers are too prominent and too important to just not talk about, so instead, they are sanitized to a degree that can be straight up historical revisionism.

That's not Miranda's fault. Nor is it the fault of any one particular piece of historical fiction, biography, documentary, or what have you. But it is the context in which Hamilton exists and, from what I understand, a culture to which it contributes. Especially since it's based on a biography of the real Alexander Hamilton, and (again, to my understanding) claims to tell a more or less accurate story.

Pirates, on the other hand, are perceived completely differently. They are mythologized, but not for ideological reasons, not as state-building propaganda. Pirates are more like folk heroes; cultural icons (near) completely divorced from whatever historical figure once lived. They are "real" in the sense that they are based on real people, but engaging with them, from the start, has a layer of removal from reality that engaging with figures like the founding fathers hasn't. Blackbeard is from a saga. George Washington is from history.

ofmd, specifically, makes clear at every turn that what we are told is a fictional story that has very little to do with any real events. It's openly anachronistic, it has absurd internal logic. Life-threatening injuries are walked off. There's actual magic. Dinghies are treated like spawn points in a video game. Everything, from the costumes to the vernacular to the story beats, tells the audience that none of this is real.

You wouldn't accuse, idk, A Knight's Tale, or Mel Brooks's Men In Tights of whitewashing history. I feel like ofmd plays in a similar league; it's a comedy very vaguely based on history, and it makes sure the audience knows we are not about to be told anything true. If you watch ofmd, you know this isn't about the real, historical Stede Bonnet or Edward Teach.

So. Let's examine the actual story, yes? The story that is told here is anticolonialist, antiracist, and challenges oppressive power structures as much as is possible for a production like this. It addresses these things and condemns them, both explicitly and in its underlying message. (I'm not gonna explain all of this, enough ink has been spilled about it by people smarter than me)

I do not know what Hamilton is about at its core. I know Our Flag Means Death is about authenticity in the face of the whole world telling you there's something wrong with you. It's about resisting dehumanization and reclaiming your personhood. It's about love, in a radical, system-destroying way, about breaking the cycle of abuse, about healing, and finding joy.

Yes, the real historical figures it's based on were all horrible people. Again, if that's a dealbreaker, that's fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone who is deeply uncomfortable with that fact; it's perfectly understandable.

However, for me, personally, the story as a whole is so far removed from reality, and so firm in its message, that I feel this is forgivable.

(Oh, and a lat aside, I also feel like likening ofmd to Hamilton seldom seems to come from a place of genuine criticism. Often it seems to be more along the lines of "Hamilton is cringe, and if I say ofmd=Hamilton ppl will be too embarrassed to defend it" which yk. feels kinda disingenuous to me.)

#oh also im a white european so yk limited perspective here #i do encourage people with different perspectives to join in the conversation!#or like link the things youve already written on this because i know people have talked about this before #i just kindly ask you to leave your 'ew cringe' arguments at the door. thanks.#our flag means death #anonymaus #message #thoughts

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poison-into-positivity99 · 6 months

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OFMD Season 2 Love 🖤🏴‍☠️

I’m a Tumblr veteran, joined when I was 13 (YIKES I KNOW). I deleted my old account because wow cringe. I was huge into Doctor Who and Supernatural, also Hannibal. Being part of those fandoms was chaotic to say the very least. I am almost 25 now, but Our Flag Means Death has reignited the old “fangirl” in me. I love this show with all my heart and soul. I very much enjoyed season 2 and I came back to Tumblr SOLEY for this show and because Twitter has been a hellscape of people being extremely negative about it. I know so many love the second season just as they do the first, but the angry voices always scream louder than the kind ones. It’s exhausting. So I’ve come here to find like minded people.

I have never felt that this show was insensitive, ableist, not supportive. The characters in this show have never been questioned for their identity, sexuality, or disability, they have always been embraced. Everything is normalized. There is not “the gay couple” they are just a couple. It feels wonderful to not have the things “different” about you, be pointed out. They are not seen as weird, abnormal, ANYTHING. I can’t remember the last time a show was ever like that. It’s so important. People saying Izzy had an arc, just for him to die, made it useless. That is honestly a disgusting take to me. Along with the people saying that they killed off a disabled character, and that makes them ableist. Are we forgetting the myriad of others with prosthetics or chronic pain? There are days I cannot physically walk by myself, I can’t get out of bed. I’ve had a knee replacement, two shoulder surgeries, a stomach surgery, because of my disability (Ehlers Danlos Syndrome). I did not, for once, feel like Izzy’s death was an act against physically disabled people. Just because I am disabled, does not mean I don’t deserve a “redemption arc”, it doesn’t mean me growing as a person is useless because I’ll just die someday. It hurts to see so many people turn on the show so quickly because they are upset with their favorite character dying or not getting more screen time. That does not mean you attack the cast, the crew, the show runners, the writers, the directors- ANYONE. Especially not others in this fandom. It’s often through tragedy and disagreements where we see people’s true colors. Being angry is okay, having a different opinion is okay too. But we don’t take it out on others who have ones differing from us, that is just not acceptable. When a character you love, is no longer on a show- for one reason or another- it can feel like losing a friend. A character you take comfort in, now being gone, is a loss of a different kind but can still cause real grief. People get angry. They can lash out. Just because you like something, or don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s excusable to be angry or hostile with other people for having a different opinion. It’s valid to be upset but it’s not okay to cause someone else feel negatively about something they love. People are quick to take online to voice how they feel, it’s a readily available outlet to do so. When tensions are high, things get thrown around and people get hurt. Think before you speak, you can voice how you feel but do not shame others for feeling differently.

Calling Ed abusive, is another thing I’ve seen being thrown around. I really hate that. Not only as someone who has been in an abusive relationship before. Everyone in the crew has killed people, tortured people, done shitty things. They are pirates. That is not the point of the show, AT ALL. People are so upset that they are pulling any accusation they can, and throwing it at the wall until something sticks.

The character I actually relate the most to is Ed. I have attempted to take my life. I have bipolar disorder, I rapidly cycle. I have been severely depressed, and extremely manic. That does not mean I am not worth loving, but it’s what I believed. I truly hated myself. I’ve hurt people. Done things I regret. It’s been a journey to find who I was, to heal and accept myself. I need reassurance from my friends, my partner, that I am enough sometimes. I hurt people before they have a chance to hurt me. I say and do things I regret. But my partner is ALWAYS there for me. He does not treat me as any less worthy. And that’s what Stede does for Ed. To think someone is only worth loving if they are “fixed” or that Ed is treating Stede as if he is “saving” him, is a bit of a concerning outlook. Saying they have no chemistry is borderline comical to me, as well. Have you SEEN the way they look at each other? They don’t even have to touch or say anything to be able to see how much love they share.

Love is not without hardships or arguments. Relationships ebb and flow, they grow and they change. When you are separate people, living a life together, there is going to be messy bits. Just because we don’t see Stede and Ed talk everything through, doesn’t mean they don’t. So much time passes in between what we see, it can’t possibly all be shown. We fill in the gaps, we get things alluded to. It’s storytelling. Not everything needs to be spelled out. There is a planned ending for the show. Everyone involved loves making it and wants to continue the story. Saying all these negative things could really halt that process. There’s still plenty more to tell and to see. I think it’s important we get that season 3. Until then I will be continuously rewatching and hyper fixating!

Thank you for reading my messy brain musings, please feel free to turn more poison into positivity!!!!

#ofmd2 #ofmd season 2 spoilers #our flag means death #ofmd spoilers

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diamondcitydarlin · 6 months

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but also like tbh morality discussions within fandom as they pertain to characters and what they are perceived to deserve or not seem to always have an element of shallow bias. I absolutely know what it feels like to watch a character slide through or completely past the proper consequences of their actions in canon and have most people in fandom think this is totally fine (usually bc the character in question is 'hot' to them or they ship them with someone etc), while in the same breath arguing that character b who never did anything quite as bad as 'hot' character a can't face enough consequences and honestly should probably just die/get written off the show (I could honestly make a very long list from a lot of different fandoms of the characters I'm thinking of and I'm resisting to avoid unnecessary drama but it's HARD and I know some of my moots who I've known through various fandoms with me WILL know what and who I'm talking about). there's always a bias, there's always some element of hypocrisy that people are unwilling to accept and will instead write paragraph long bullshit diatribes about why their hot fave shouldn't have to face consequences while 'loser' character b should have to face ALL of them (if you supposed that character b is usually either some combo of older/not conventionally attractive/disabled/non-white then you win, because that's p much always the case!). I've seen characters in media do absolutely despicable things that just get swept under the rug by the writers and the fans where other characters deeds do not, so it's a double-standard that has rooting in some subject materials as well. so I guess for this reason it's difficult for me to take any kind of 'this character bad, this character good' at face value bc I know there's about a 99.9% chance that whoever is arguing this is doing so from a place of very deeply seated personal bias where nuance and complexity pretty much don't exist, it's just this character bad, this character good bc I said so. The end. It's not really limited to who the narrative designates as a sympathetic/heroic character or a villain either, it's entirely up to the preexisting prejudices the person has and is just blithely ignoring as they try to form their educated, 'objective' argument. (and ofc this extends to REAL people in fandom too bc inevitably THEY are good and whoever doesn't think like them is BAD, thereby justifying whatever they end up doing or saying to the 'bad fans')

For this reason I'm glad that OFMD is not that kind of show, at least not within the main cast. I'm glad that the subject material doesn't force anyone to designate characters as 'bad, unlovable' and 'good, deserves everything' based on shallow biases like someone thinks they're hot and/or they're a cute little meow meow or part of a fave pairing or whatever. Everyone deserves acceptance, but everyone has to work for it because we're exploring the idea that people and life are more nuanced than that, that we're ALL capable of destruction and pain, that no one gets a free pass from making amends based on some flimsy predetermination that they're 'one of the good ones' who is never culpable for anything. I think it's a really strong theme to go with and I'm appreciative of the writing team for having the emotional-awareness to do it, especially in a story that will inherently attract a lot of people who are used to doing the good guy/bad guy thing, particularly in queer narratives where these viewers tend to think everyone has to be a 'good guy' or they're not a valid queer or whatever.

And idk maybe being forced to see nuance like this will get some of these cut-and-dried narrative people to rethink themselves and life as a whole, maybe it'll force some of them to realize their world-views are deeply rooted in prejudice, maybe it'll get them to think about the complexity of humans IRL and the fact that life isn't as simple as being divided between good (never responsible for anything, always a justification) and bad (never deserving of anything good, should just go die) bc like man...what a caustic way to view life and people in general, what a fucked up way to go through life, what a cheap, easy way to justify your own destruction against others smh

#not tagging just venting ig #literally been through this discussion so many times #since i first entered fandom in 99 or 00 #like literally this has been happening since then and im sure much much longer

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