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#the meereenese blot
greenhikingboots · 2 years
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Mummer’s Dragon
Just thinking about this @istumpysk post AGAIN regarding the following excerpt: 
“No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”
As stumpy pointed out, there are many canon instances which link mummers to “deceit, lying, knowingly playing a part, a ploy, or traitorous actions.” So I’ve got this tiny thought about that. Could be obvious but I haven’t seen it explicitly stated before, so I wanted to. Maybe I just missed it being stated before or maybe it hasn’t been because it’s really not all that important -- not consequential, doesn’t change anything? But it still intrigues me, so here goes. I’m in agreement that the mummer’s dragon = Jon but I want to break it down like this: The mummer = Ned His dragon = Jon See, small distinction. But it feels like it matters. Maybe it’s the possessive that really does it for me? I don’t know. But anyway. Got me thinking that even if Jon isn’t up to some schemes by the time his plot overlaps with Dany’s (aka political!Jon), the title still fits. Neat, right? 
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agentrouka-blog · 1 year
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My favourite thing when anons want to stir trouble is that like, inevitably they have consistent misspelling habits which mean you know exactly who it is sending repeat asks. So unself-aware.
Anyway, I do think there is a balanced path between the text and what the author says. GRRM's comments about Sansa are about as light as they could come. I love when people want to ungenerously frame the debate as if she's tantamount to Tyrian or Daenerys, come on. Girl took a steak knife to see a drunken knight in the godswood. The most harm she's going to inflict is driving Jon crazy with the incest. I'm trying to be lighthearted here.
Anyway, Rouka, what's your opinion on author vs. text? How much is too much, relying on the former? On the other hand, with the Daenerys is a tragic hero fandom, there's a lot of outright twisting of the text. Does relying on the author's comments provide some clarity or just make the conversation harder, since one would want to reason based on the text? Thank you for your time and your graceful handling of us terrible anons 🥰
(The posts referenced: one and two)
(I'm chronically bad at recognizing these individuall spelling patterns. Unless they make it obvious, every anon is a newborn dawn to me.)
Hello and thank you!
For me, the actual text of the books should always be central when it comes to actually analyzing the books. (You know. Obviously.) Interviews can be nice, but should be absolutely optional to any of it. If you NEED an interview to support your position, you're not analyzing the text.
Perhaps I am biased because I can't be bothered to follow GRRM interviews, let alone dig up ancient ones - unless I am feeling especially motivated.
But also, most of the time we don't have a lot of good context for GRRM's quotes. How exactly a question was phrased, what direction the conversation went before it, how distracted or rushed was GRRM when answering, how likely is it he actually managed to get across exactly what he meant, and how easily can it get twisted around? Who edited and published it? Worse, did it go through a translation process?
Take the "Aragorn's Tax Policy" quote that still has people frothing at the mouth. People hear him mention Tolkien and lose all sense of nuance. No, he's not describing how his endgame king will be elected on his tax plan. He's giving context for parts of ADWD. That's it. Still people wail about what an evil hypocrite GRRM supposedly is because Bran was crowned king in the show without a single published treatise on his taxation policy.
Same with some commentary on the show, specifically Dany with Drogo. I've had people in my Inbox arguing for Rhaegar/Lyanna because GRRM is obviously okay with adult men preying on teenaged girls based on that interview. Which... you know, actually read Dany's chapters? Please?
The books, on the other hand, were not blathered out in a hurry. They are not a commentary on a text, they are the text. A labor of many hours of writing, editing, rewriting and more editing. They are complete and fully intentional in their form. They are the message.
So, while I admire how someone who knows what they are doing is able to create a brilliant body of supporting evidence on book content by compiling quotes in a meaningful way, often with good sources and context - looking at you here, @kellyvela - these lovely metas should never be considered necessary to understanding the text, and they should certainly neither replace nor supercede it. They augment the experience of it.
Knowing GRRM approved on the Meereenese Blot essays is nice.
But you don't need to know them, nor what GRRM thinks of them, in order to arrive at the same conclusion.
Knowing GRRM agrees with the statement that "Brienne is Sansa with a sword" is nice.
But you need never have heard of that quote in order to understand the similarities between these two idealistic, dutiful female characters.
He called Tyrion a villain, which is nice.
But you can arrive at that same conclusion by reading the books.
On the other hand, you can take one quote about the Key Five Characters from a decades-old outline that deviates from established plot in multiple significant instances, and then try and justify dismissing the importance of other characters. You just need to ignore the published text in order to do it!
So I just can't take that anon seriously when they gesture wildly at some quote about Sansa while ignoring the way it's entirely contradicted by the actual body of the text.
And if some members of the fandom have a habit of very selectively reading the text then this makes their analysis suspect, so what's really the point of arguing with someone who isn't really interested in analysis in the first place?
If "she burned a slave alive" or "she is ordering her servant to please her sexually" or "she condons torture even while she knows its useless" or "she ordered the murder of children" isn't going to convince them, an interview snippet isn't going to do it, either.
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esther-dot · 11 months
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With the way sometimes Grrm talks about Dany "hot chick riding dragon" or her relationship with Drogo, idk how to say this, is jarring to say the least. We know he was surprised by people seeing san/san as romantic but I still don't know whether he intended Dany's wedding night to be rape (which it obviously is) but then he denied it. Sometimes I get the feeling he doesn't care for her the way he cares for say Sansa and Arya (he would never pair them with Drogo or Daario or Euron! yes Sansa married Tyrion but Grrm made it sure to be unconsummated and little more than sham), probably because he always intended for her to be doomed.
(in reference to this ask I think)
I don’t know that we can look at how much Martin makes a character suffer as an indication of how much he loves them. Tyrion has been misjudged/mistreated his entire life (even abused as in infant), and yet, he is Martin's favorite character. He’s not dishing out pain based on his affection for a character imo. I think he wants to look at certain ideas, and as much as he loves all his characters, as a writer, they’re tools he’s using to say certain things.
As fans, not the artist, it can be hard for us to emotionally disengage enough to think of it that way, but writers are trying to convey big ideas, and Dany’s lovers/husbands at times are representative of something about Dany, it isn’t always as simple as a sex scene, and if Martin is locked into that type of thinking, it may not be hitting him the way it hits us. I clearly remember being 13/14, I remember my friends at that age, so it offends me to read certain scenes or hear him talk about the girls in a certain way. I am with you in objecting to how he speaks about Dany.
That being said, I did have a new thought about this.
Martin endorsed the famous Meereenese blot essays, and in those, the author argues that Dany's choice in men indicates something about her--that she is moved by violence, that peace bores her. He relates what Martin has written about her sex life to Dany's character development, and I think that may be the light in which Martin views his choices, not the one we adopt, "this is a 13 year old child." If we want to extend that grace when interpreting his writing, we can assume that Drogo, as well as Daario, were created to show us Dany's desires--not write Dany as some sexual fantasy for pervs. They may both have been written to show us that Dany is drawn to violent means, even though it scares her, even though it hurts her, even though it may lead to her demise.
I hadn't really thought beyond my repulsion before, but this ask did remind me, there's a long literary history of writing land/countries as feminine, and seeing as how Martin has used the term, "come-into-my-castle" as a euphemism for sex, it's worth wondering what additional purposes some of these sex scenes serve. Maybe, they're conveying bigger ideas? As in, Sansa's choice to not have sex with Tyrion does mean she remains a virgin, but plot-wise, it matters because this actually protects Winterfell, the North, from the Lannisters. It can be read as Sansa (the North) will not be permanently conquered by the enemy (Lannisters), but will become free.
And if we look at Dany with the same idea, Martin's insistence that Dany's wedding day sex was consensual (yikes) and a “seduction” (fucking yikes) the literary point may be that scene is standing in for Dany being seduced by power and violent means, that rather than protecting her country (Westeros), she will willingly bring destruction and death. It is possible Martin's choices were less about whitewashing statutory rape (he goes on to write about Drogo brutally raping Dany so the way he objected to D&D's rewriting of the scene seemed odd), maybe the focus was always meant to be on what Dany loves, what she desires, it just took us getting to ADWD and her riding a dragon with some...uh, sexual sounding descriptions, for Martin to connect his dots.
All the same, I will not defend him. I am repulsed by how he has spoken about Dany in interviews, and I don't like how he sexualizes little girls. It disturbs me.
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could you link your take on the meereenese blot essay? read it a long time back, would love to read another take on it, cant seem to find it on here
Sure thing. The reason you can't find it on tumblr is that it's hosted on Tower of the Hand.
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alaynasansa · 1 year
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branwendaughterofllyr · 2 months
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Sorry girl, but you lost so badly, GRRM will never finish the books, meaning that there will be zero Stark restoration, zero Jonsa, and Daenerys is still alive. And the Greens are still utterly irrelevant and no character mention Alicent when they discuss the DoD. Stop stanning losers.
Oh honey. I know this is probably hard to you for hear, but I already have five books of Stark content to enjoy. I already have five books of Jon, Bran, Arya, and Sansa, not mention Ned and Cat, all pointing to a Stark restoration and the rebuilding of Winterfell. This entire series started with the scene of the Starks finding the direwolves. The original title of ADOS was A Time For Wolves. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Calling the Starks losers is very funny, when their enemies had to break the rules of their society to win and are already on their way out. The North Remembers and the mummer’s farce is almost done. Like, I don’t know what to tell you, the Starks still are at the heart of the books as written, doesn’t matter if George ever finishes ADOS, the Starks are still the heart. And that’s a win for me. And on Dany? Well. I mean. Girl is not exactly winning at everything at the moment, is she? One of the few essays about ASOIAF George has ever endorsed is the Meereenese Blot. Maybe go check it out? Or maybe reread ADWD? That’s sure to give you the warm and fuzzies about Dany all over again. And it’s funny for you to bring the Greens into this. Bc F&B is fundamentally an unserious book that I enjoy laughing at. Nobody looks good in it. I don’t even particularly like the book Greens. I just think that when a show tries push the framing of one side in what’s meant to be a bloody civil war where no one wins, I push back. And of the characters that get mentioned in canon during the Dance? Uh. I hate to tell you that Criston Cole gets equal mentions to Rhaenyra, and everyone else is pretty much not talked about. Daemon doesn’t even get brought up (overshadowed by all the Blackfyres I imagine). And we all know how the Dance ends. That story at least is done.
And this is the ASOIAF fandom. There are literally no irrelevant characters, lol. Someone can have nothing but one named mention, and there’s probably a fanblog about them somewhere. That’s simply not the insult you think it is. And as I recall, one of the og Dance novellas was “The Princess and The Queen”? Idk, someone’s talking about Alicent. Wonder who wrote that.
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thewingedwolf · 1 year
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tumblr how dare you recommend me the dumbest “clearly dany is the hero and everyone calling the targs imperialists or saying the dragons are dangerous is reading too deep into the text” take ALIVE OMG how many posts do i have in my anti dany and anti targ tags, how many times does grrm have to compare dany to fucking george bush, say the meereenese blot essays which paint dany as a villain are completely correct, and compare dragons to nukes for people to stop saying that we’re reading the text “too deep” by saying “hmm so dany forgetting the name of the child her dragon murdered feels like a sign she’s slipping into villainy” LIKE. TUMBLR DO U WANT ME TO DEVELOP AN ULCER.
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istumpysk · 1 year
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i was re-reading the meereenese blot essays (10 years old this year!) the other day and decided to peruse the comments, the most recent of which was from 2019, and they're all so funny. those essays are so much softer than readings of dark dany today and take every opportunity to hammer home her "good intentions" (...🙄), but even then people seem so genuinely shocked, SHOCKED, that her preference for war could mean a darker turn
even when people agreed she was "turning away" from altruism (...🙄), there's this stance that actually it's necessary, because obviously we all know she has a heroic roll to play fighting against the white walkers. maester aemon's guilt-ridden dying delusions of grandeur for his lost family have this fandom in a choke-hold i swear
Also noticed the writer making a deliberate effort to refrain from staining her character, lol. Perhaps it's for the best that he wasn't more candid, George might not have publicly commented on it if he had been.
Anyway, people are deluded. The man who wrote this,
"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly. - Davos V, ASOS
will never provide a rationale for her atrocities in the narrative. Get real.
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kellyvela · 2 years
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I love the many Sansa specific metas I find from her fans. (Many from Jonsa shippers and some from not) I’d love to find some more deep Jon character analysis meta. Jonsa’s have some great ones. I’m open to meta from those who are not Jonsa, as long as they are intelligent and reasonable, but outside the Meereenese blot essays, I don’t have much luck. It’s all curtain of light/ 3 heads crap. Any recommendations for Jon specific meta content? TY!!
To be honest, I have never read a really good Jon meta, even the ones I like have some of bad take in it.
But maybe someone can help us in the comments or reblogs!
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mneiai · 1 year
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(I made the the first two and kept thinking up more theories lol)
Please reblog polls if you vote so they can get more votes!
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tartheanmaid · 11 months
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I'm only on season 4 which makes sense as to why I thought it was incest lmao. nontheless thanks for the explanation and I'm curious how we'll find out Jon isnt Ned Stark's son
they do it pretty bad in the show. id recommend you stop watching after like 6.10 (and since you’re so early on, my like blog title thing is a reference to jon and sansa’s quite romantic reunion in season 6 episode 4 lol)
once you finish the show i’d reccomend reading a series of essays by adam feldman, called the meereenese blot essays. these are the only fan essays/theories to ever be endorsed by george, so they’re pretty on point.
after that, just dive into the books, no need to bother with the show any longer lol
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visenyaism · 1 year
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have u every read the meereenese blot??
call me a fake fan but i do not remember what that is
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finitefall · 1 year
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Hi! Love all your takes. Sorry to bother you, but I saw that allegedly George responded “this guy gets it” to a 2013 blog post about Dany becoming the Mad Queen? Have you heard of it? I admit I’m a bit worried.
Hi nonnie! I’m glad you find my posts interesting, and you're not bothering me at all :)
GRRM referred to the Meereen storyline in A Dance with Dragons as "the Meereenese knot" because of how complex it was to write. He talked about it in an interview:
Now that we know how the "Meereenese knot" played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons? Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's the plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen… All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet. (source)
Someone wrote a series of essays called "The Meereenese Blot", which is also the name of his blog. They were written in 2013 (ADWD was published in 2011), and the thing is that many people thought the Meereen storyline was a mess, while the author of those essays made some good points about its relevance, the major storylines within the whole Meereen's storyline, the themes GRRM explored. Now, it’s been a very long time since I’ve read all of this, and I don’t remember it very well, but Adam begins his "Untangling the Meereenese Knot" with:
Meereen. The mere word probably makes you groan. It’s considered to be the weakest, most frustrating plotline in ADWD, and perhaps in in the whole series. It’s thought to be where GRRM lost the plot and spent endless chapters on pointless filler. The solutions seem so obvious, the villains seem obviously evil one-dimensional caricatures. And many fans see it as the plotline that ruined Dany’s character, revealing her to be a naive, incompetent, lovesick girl.
Because that's how people saw it, even some Dany fans were frustrated. And I can't find the link, but yes, GRRM did say "this guy gets it". However, is he approving literally everything Adam said? I don’t think so, I’m not sure he’s read all of it. He could have been saying that this guy understood the importance of the plotline. Without reading the whole thing again, it’s clear the peace wasn't real and that Dany chosing Fire and Blood in the end only means she understood the peace she tried to make in Meereen wasn't working. She will be darker in The Winds of Winter, like literally every character, but saying it’s her giving in to her selfish and darker impulses? No. So I have very mixed feelings about The Meereenese Blot, because making good points and getting people interested in the storyline isn’t a bad thing, but there are more accurate metas that have been written and aren’t used by antis for their Dark!Dany foreshadowing.
Edit: I’m adding the comments from nonnies on this post as I believe they’re relevant to your question:
GRRM complimenting The Meereenese Blot was so obviously him being happy someone wasn’t dismissing the subplot outright, not a full scale endorsement of a fan theory. People are so desperate to have Dany go mad that they will just ignore logic. Like yeah GRRM is gonna go out of his way to confirm 1 (one) single major fan theory as absolute fact despite him never doing that before or ever again. He even later denied parts of that theory outright (Dany burning the water gardens)
My understanding was that GRRM didn't even read Feldman's essay, he just heard about it from Linda, and who knows how she described it to him 😭 I'd be very surprised if he agreed with those essays because Feldman seriously mischaracterizes Arianne and Melisandre as well. On the whole, it's a bunch of misogynistic crap. Brideoffires has a really good, in-depth debunking of the whole thing.
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esther-dot · 2 years
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“The things he has told us time and again over the course of years that he told D&D? The things the fandom wants to believe are strictly their fuckery? Like say, Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran, Dark Dany?”
Can you share where George told us ‘time and again’ that he told D&D about Dark Dany? Because from what I know, the three things George RR Martin confirmed he’s told D&D were Stannis burning Shireen, King Bran and the Hodor moment. I don’t remember him saying anything about Daenerys’ ending, I’d be happy if you enlightened me, I’d love to see the interview/post.
Oh, I’m sorry. I wasn’t careful enough there! Martin has said many times over the course of years, that he has known his main endings and plot points for years/decades. He has also said he shared these with D&D, that he expected the show to have the same endgames, and before and after s8 he has spoken of how faithful an adaptation of ASOIAF Game of Thrones is. Obviously they have huge divergences, but I think those are in the how the endgame is reached, less the what. That’s the part of “he told us time and again” that I meant, not that I have heard him explicitly say, “Dany dies a villain.”
But, he did say this of the infamous Meereenese Blot Essays:
Then he went on to add that sometimes there's an essay or even a series of essays that "really gets it right". He specifically cited the difficulty he had with the Meereenese sections of ADwD, trying to figure out the POV, and he called it the "Meereenese Knot." He admitted being annoyed when some turned it into "the Meerenese Blot", but someone made a series of essays with that title. "I read those when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention." Of course, he added that some other essays depress him when people get everything wrong, and when people get everything wrong, well, whose fault is it? It could be his fault because he didn't write it well enough, but who knows? (link)
Here are some quotes from those essays:
But when you look past the unreliable narrator and POV-character bias, Martin’s aim becomes clear. The whole plotline is designed to maneuver Dany into a mental place where she’ll decide to sideline her concerns for innocent life, and take what she wants with fire and blood. Martin’s triumph is in handling this character development in such a natural and organic way. He gives Dany as much agency as he can — her hand is never truly forced by the Harpy or slavers. He presents her with incredibly difficult situations, places her core values into conflict, and makes her choose. Her choices first go one way — then another.
Now, the transformation is complete. The Dany we knew at the end of ASOS is gone. The one who reaches Westeros will be a very different person. The dragons are now unchained, and the gloves are off. (link)
and
In parts I-IV of this essay, I’ve laid out my main argument that Martin has designed Dany’s ADWD plotline quite deliberately to focus on her struggle within herself. She tries to be concerned for innocent life, and fears unleashing her violent impulses. Eventually, she sacrifices a great deal for peace, and achieves it. But she turns out to hate it, and in the end rejects it, in favor of “fire and blood.” 
and
In contrast to Daario, Martin tailors the traits of Hizdahr zo Loraq to represent the path of peace through political compromise. Dany’s feelings toward him are exactly how she ends up feeling toward the peace — like the peace, Hizdahr is unsatisfying, frustrating, not what Dany truly wants, and cannot make her happy — and instinctively, she wants war more. 
and
Dany’s sexual satisfaction is a metaphor — the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can (link)
So, no, Mr Martin didn’t look into a camera and say, “Dark Dany is real and everyone who says so isn’t a hater or partaking in a ship war.” But I’m not sure how you read the essays and what he said about them and deny that’s the path she’s on?
I also think the way he regularly included “the major beats” in his discussion about endgames being the same in the show and books indicates the burning of KL was always in his mind, but even if he didn’t say so, I don’t think it’s a weird conclusion to come to. Not if you relate Dany entering a funeral pyre because she is blood of the dragon and emerging with her dragons to the later quotes about Aerys wanting to turn KL into a giant funeral pyre so that he could be a dragon. It’s just not much of a leap at all to realize, oh, the author is building to something here. (link)
My words could have been clearer, but I think Dark Dany is just like Stannis burning Shireen. It makes sense, it’s foreseeable, but fans like Stannis so they refuse to believe it without seeing the words on the page. Fine. But it doesn’t mean it wasn’t where Martin always intended to go. His quote about Feldman’s essays is from 2015.
The other Martin quote that seals the deal for me regarding Dark Dany is the fact that he called her a threat and compared her to the Others:
MARTIN: Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of  the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her  dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice  and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle,  in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more  based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from  the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100  Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of  the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so  consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms,  within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the  Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re  blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening  far away on the periphery of their kingdoms. (link)
I just don’t think he accidentally called her one of “the much greater and more dangerous threats” if in his mind she wasn’t, ya know, a threat to the people of Westeros. That quote is from 2014. There’s also the oft referenced the dragons are the nuclear deterrent quote which I can’t find the original source for at the moment, but I take the above as confirmation of what Dark Dany enthusiast have long argued. Martin reading this quote:
“the reality of peace can’t truly satisfy Dany, only war can”
and saying, He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there…well, it feels like an answer to the Dark Dany question.
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swiftstigmata · 1 year
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honestly i need to read the meereenese blot essays because meereen is confusing me SO much at this point. still having a good time it’s just like head empty vibing
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romanken · 11 months
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Reading the meereenese blot.... Let's get to the bottom of this ladies
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