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sometipsygnostalgic · 3 years

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whats the rational behind those classpect assignments... 👀

Finn: Knight of Hope. Superficially, a Knight of Hope is the classpect you’d assign to a protagonist character like Finn, someone who fights for his moral code. And this is what he does early in the show. However, the Hope aspect connects with Finn in a much more intimate way later on. In Homestuck, “Hope” characters include Cronus, Eridan, and Jake, who are HOPELESS when it comes to romantic relationships. They’re terrible partners too. Jake has tons of people lusting after him but doesn’t know how to deal with any of them. His friendships with them all collapse, just like Finn. They also lose hope at some point in the story and have low self esteem. Finn in season 4 starts to do some shady stuff to impress women. He becomes a creep. He tries to get Flame Princess to fight Ice King literally so he can get off on it in his dreams (no joke, no exaggeration, that’s what the story tells us), and he doesn’t think about her at all, so he loses her trust and she breaks up. Finn rebounds onto PB - who he already knew was not interested in him at all - and acts creepy with her, but messes up HER trust in him too. He ends that episode with her disappointed that he can’t take an adult situation seriously. Then Flame Princess tries to rebound on FP, and does creepy Eridan/Cronus stuff like touching her shoulder and not respecting her at all. It doesn’t work and he just... falls into despair.

Finn tries to cover his teen angst, and save face by saying he doesn’t want to date princesses because he wants to focus on his “knight” duties. Finn disguising his feelings, by acting as a knight, screams “knight” to me. And everything about his relationships screams “hope”.

But... Finn REGAINS hope in the episode “Breezy”. By being knighted!!! He has a hallucination that he’s being reknighted and suddenly the flower on his arm blooms and he’s able to function again.

For the rest of the show he’s a sincere champion of hope. He deals with things more maturely. At one point he puts hope into the universe to save his life, and it does. At another point he protects the world by using nightmare juice against his own boss, hoping it’ll knock some sense into her, and it does. But Finn can fall into despair again, as he does when the Finn sword is smashed, and sometimes his blind hope can cause him to fall into naive traps, like when he was used as a trojan in Gumbaldia.

Jake: see this post

PB: PB is just Dirk Strider if Dirk was a better character. Seriously you could absorb Dirk into her and nothing would change about her other than maybe adding his fondness for smuppets (...though there’s nothing proving she DOESNT have a fondness for smuppets already). They’re both shut-ins, they’re both heartbreakers, they raised themselves from childhood, they’re both tech geniuses, they both ride hoverboards, theyre both repressed gays incredibly clingy about a specific bisexual who have to push away advances from pushy straight people, they both make killer robots, they both have 10,000 splinters of themselves represented as other characters who often become evil due to their shared characteristics, they’re both coldhearted parents, they both have hero complexes, they both have god complexes, they both make the weirdest shit for no reason, they’re the most neurotic in their ensembles, they’re both scared that they can become monsters because of their most natural instincts, and they both DO unfortunately become monsters because of ultimate self shenanigans outside of their control, with the main difference being Dirk’s ultself breaks the fourth wall and isn’t undone, but PB sings the fucking intro song in the elements series so I guess that can count as a 4th wall break. PB is literally an extension of what Dirk would become if he were a candy girl, he didn’t meet Roxy, Condy wasn’t around, and sburb didn’t exist. They even have a similar parallel where they didn’t become as evil as their splinters because they had a brother, and some early influence from family to be good.

BMO: Okay, so like I said BMO could have been a Hope player as well, or a Bard, and it wouldn’t have made much difference. I chose Rogue of Mind ultimately because BMO is so creative, and can be unexpectedly helpful. BMO’s mind is dangerous and lead them to go on crazy misadventures. But he can show up out of nowhere and change a situation for the better. BMO’s also incredibly cheerful with some hidden depths. I FEEL Rogue of Mind for BMO. It’s hard to justify how, becuase what would a Rogue of Mind even be?

But BMO is a gremlin wild with imagination just like Terezi. You can’t deny that at all.

Marceline: I will admit I put less thought into Marceline’s than Finn’s. I always saw Marceline as a Time player though, and I always wanted her to be a passive class like a rogue or a page! Marceline has always fallen victim to being passive in her circumstances.

She is like Tavros and Jake because she feels like she can’t control what happens to her. Marceline gives up really quickly because she think she can’t improve the world or her situation. Like how Jake thinks he’s full of hope, Marceline is superficially seen as a master of time, because she’s a vampire. She’s lived a long time, right? But actually she hasn’t come to terms with her immortality. She hates it, and she hates that time keeps repeating itself. Marceline is intimidated by the prospect of living forever and sees it as a burden put on her by the Vampire King’s assault. A traumatic experience she can’t move on from.

There are many ways in which she relates to Aradia and Dave as well - how she handles traumatic experiences. Marceline pretended to be a monster because she was fed up of people abandoning her, and thought she WAS a monster, and if she put on a facade and acted like a huge jerk, it would push people away so they can’t get close to her and hurt her. But this only made her unhappy. Dave did something very similar, with his cool kid persona. Aradia dealt with being dead by pretending she was a robot who had no feelings. Marceline tries to shed her vampire identity and thinks this is going to make her feel better, but it wouldn’t have done. She’d have spent the rest of her life still hanging onto that trauma even as a mortal. She is filled with overconfidence which all collapses, like Jake and Tavros, and she spends a good chunk of the final episode having given up on her ability to change fate.

But where the Page aspect shines is its potential. Marceline speaks to Ice King and realises that, in being a survivor, she has a kind of strength. She decides to use her strength to grip onto the wheel of fortune, and in one fell swoop, ANNIHILATES the vampire king with her massive hidden potential. Then it is locked away once more.

Marceline doesn’t understand the extent of her abilities. She’s at a very early stage in her immortal lifespan. But she’s learnt that even though everything repeats itself, it changes ever so slightly each time, and she DOES have control over her fate. She shares this epiphany with Aradia, who took control of HEr own fate in Homestuck. Marceline will only get more and more acquainted with her aspect over time! She has so much potential because she will live for many years.

#adventure time #homestuck

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ziracona · 4 years

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And I hate to do this- So on that thread, not that he's as bad, why do you think Michael is redeemable? (and also Frank) Especially by his main victim? :? I hope that isn't as bad or as judgmental as I think it sounds... - Sleepy (its like 5am here :3 living up to my name i see)

So, these I gave a short and a long answer for under cut, but forgot I’m on mobile and can’t do that. I can tag it “long post” but uhhh, sorry about this. Anyway, thats why Frank comes in two chunks. I wrote it expecting to be able to use a read more. :’-] also ya fine. And I hope you’re in bed 🤣 now. Okay so. Here’s my reasons:

For Michael, to start, Halloween is complicated af. You have to know what timeline people are talking about, because there are like 8+ and Michael has been written as a wildly different character by wildly different content creators, and I would not feel the same ways towards them all. They’re not the same character. When I talk about Michael, unless I’m going on about a specific other film, I mean either H20 canon, or DbD canon, which are in line with each other when it comes to characterization. (This also includes Halloween’s 1 & 2 in the H20 line, and Halloween 1 at least in DbD). In those timelines, Michael has like at best 2% agency and choice in his own life and what he becomes. That’s why I am sympathetic. I still root for Laurie to nail his ass to the wall of course, and everything he has done to hurt someone isn’t okay just because his life is unfair & awful & out of his control, but I still find him a very tragic character. He was canonically suffering violent psychosis his parents refused him treatment for, isolated with a monster as his doctor & only human contact for 15 years from age 6 on, overdosed on medications that when OD’d worsen psychosis symptoms and can cause permanent brain damage, and stuck like that until escaping briefly when he turned 21.

In Halloween canon, Michael tells his parents he hears voices telling him to do bad things like hurt people, but they tell him he is imagining stuff, and ignore his attempts to get help. The voices say they will be quiet, which is what he desperately wants, if he kills his sister Judith. So he does, at age six. Scientifically speaking, that’s literally too young to really have a complete grasp on death and mortality itself, let alone complex ethics. He immediately goes to his parents after doing the deed, so they can do whatever they need to do. Instead of getting him help, he is sentenced to 15 years in a 1960s American sanitorium (hell), until he turns 21 and can be tried for murder as an adult (fucking ridiculous and unfair?? Tried as an adult is for like, upper teens who commit heinous murders. How tf you justify trying a six year old literally too young to really understand murder as an adult for murdering someone??). They give him to Dr. Sam Loomis, a fucking horrible person, who says he spends 8 years trying to help Michael (a fkn lie), but canonically by only a few months of meeting the kid is thoroughly convinced he is evil, the devil or a demon in human form, faking his psychosis and side effect symptoms (trauma induced mutism from killing his sister, onset of catatonia/motion loss symptoms, etc, all of which are common with his disorder & trauma), desperate to kill again, and an evil mastermind doing the devil’s work, and says so. Spends four hours every day accusing Michael as a six year old child on, of planning to do horrible things and faking his illness and being a demon and not a human, and Loomis, from age 6 to 21, is this kid’s only human contact. And the staff knew it and how wrong and disturbed Loomis was, but did nothing. So from age 6 to 21—barring one or two visits from his mom & Laurie before his dad beat 4 year old Laurie for saying Michael’s, who he hated after Judith’s death, name—until she trauma blocked out having had a brother or sister at all, and then both parents died in a car crash—his only human contact in complete isolation was an adult man who told him for four hours a day he was an evil lying demon faking his symptoms and plotting murder and not a human and promised he would kill Michael and stop him, from childhood on, and that was it. He was never given an understanding of what was medically wrong with him, or that anything was at all. He was threatened and abused and kept overdosed on drugs for 15 years since early childhood, and his only understanding of the world taught in that absolute isolation, was that he was a demon who wanted to get out and kill again. And the violent psychosis, telling him if he killed both sisters, they would go away and leave him in peace with no more constant noise. With no normal understanding of the world or people or life like he was owed ever given to him, no understanding at all of what you were going through or were aside from the promise drilled into your head you were a monster who wanted to kill every day for 15 years while drugged up? Like, I’m a firm believe people are responsible for their own actions, but in a case as extreme as that, honestly, how else was that ever going to even be able to end? You forget, as a child. Who you used to be. That’s beyond grooming even, it’s being grown in a lab for the sole purpose of someday walking out, taking a large kitchen knife, and killing Laurie Strode. And it’s tragic. It’s unfair. Halloween is a tragedy, not a horror film. It didn’t have to be that way. He wanted help. He asked for help. Loomis is directly and pretty much solely responsible for the lives lost in 1978. You know he won’t even call Michael “him”? The only human he contact he had since age six on called him “it.” And no one stopped any of that. And even then. Even then, even with all that. With the drugs, and the lab grown killer, and all of it? Michael is pretty much the single least sadistic slasher killer there /is/.

Everyone he kills in Halloween? He kills fast. It’s actually kind of boring if you’re expecting a scary slasher, because there’s no chase until Laurie. He just appears, runs you through, and you die. Very fast. And if there is any emotion expressed towards the act of killing or aftermath, it’s not pleasure or hate or happiness, it’s curiosity, because literally everything is something he wasn’t allowed to experience growing up and just has no practical experience with yet. And on top of all that, he also just doesn’t kill people he doesn’t have to. He kills one man for clothes, kills Annie to re-do Judith’s murder since it didn’t work the first time and he needs both sisters for the voices to stop, and he kills Bob and Lynda becuase they stumble onto where he is & are a threat to success. (This + Judith 15 years prior is all the deaths in Halloween period, btw). Michael routinely only kills his target, and anyone who is a threat to success. Literally doesn’t even jump out to kill Bob or attack until Bob opens the door to the closet he was hiding in, and he has been seen. Walks past a security guard and lets him go in H20 becuase he doesn’t see him, steals keys from a mom with her 4 year old kid and doesn’t even hurt them because they don’t see him really either, steals a knife from an old lady making a sandwich who is one foot away but looking the other direction, so he lets her go. Even with all the possible stakes against him, really, Michael is like, the least cruel and most sympathetic and merciful version of that lab grown killer possible, which can only be a testament to the person he was initially/still somehow has managed to keep faint traces of alive inside.

As for Laurie finding him redeemable, answer is threefold I guess, and I’ll start with the most important. 1: in Halloween canon, Laurie cares for Michael and is incredibly sad about what he turned into and wishes he could be different (once she remembers who he is). That’s established canon, not a choice of mine. In Halloween 2, she tries to talk him down before shooting him, and he hesitates when she says his name and lowers his weapon for a moment. In H20, she talks about him a lot & even asks her boyfriend (a psychologist) if he thinks something so traumatic can happen to someone that they can never recover, bc even though she hasn’t seen him in 20 years, he’s still on her heart. She hesitates to kill him once she has him helpless in the finale, and when he reaches out for her hand, she almost cries and starts to reach back because it’s what she has truly wanted for so long. 2: Michael & Laurie are siblings, and that’s a very important relationship to me. Obviously, there’s lines where you cross, it’s fkn over, but it is special, and I’m weak for it. They were both cheated of the good family life they could have had, and I like characters I care for getting recovery and rehabilitation, and I would like them to be able to recover and have whatever fragments of the lives they wanted which are still possible. And then 3: Laurie is his victim, but they’re also both victims of Loomis, and the system, and her parents, and if she does /wish/ for him to be okay and things to be like they were, which was canon before me, so she does, then I think them finding happiness and her relief and new hope in regained family and him redemption and rehabilitation through the quite literally only person he has /ever/ known who treated him well or like even a human at all & is still living, that’s so good. It’s sweet, and it makes sense. I like broken people putting the pieces together and finding ways to be okay. None of the shit that happened to either of them was okay, and Michael sure did fucking do it, but it’s about as “it’s complicated” as literally possible, and Laurie wants him to be her brother again, and Michael deserves a chance to experience personhood enough to want anything like that again too, and I think it’s sweet. To be able to find happiness and peace and a new life in that rubble. It shouldn’t be possible, because Halloween is a tragedy that never gets a happy ending, no matter how many timelines they create or versions they tell, but I wish it could have one. It needs one. At least one, among all the fated tragedies for those two cruelly cursed siblings. They both had their lives stolen. Michael by Loomis, and Laurie by Michael. And I want them to find those stolen lives again. And if they can do it together, that’s a very odd and unusual set of circumstances for that kind of thing, but it’s a very complete way to tell the story. He tried to kill her, but if she asked him to stop and he stopped, if he himself chose to change on his own, when it really, really mattered—decided that it was what he wanted more than all the things he was before, and she decided that was enough, and they could both have a future as family? I like that. It’s a happy ending stolen back.

Long Frank Answer, in case you /have/ read ILM & thus short answer did not answer your question: So. Again, for me, I always talk about Frank as in the version of him I myself write, and I wrote ILM before the archives retcon, and also just ignore them because they’re usually dumb and blatantly contradict well established and longstanding canon. Even then, I usually don’t like Frank though—didn’t like him when I started writing ILM. But Frank has very little established canon character. All there is for sure is he was a foster kid that went through some bad stuff, he met Julie and changed his mind about desperately trying to be homed somewhere other than with Clive bc he liked Julie a lot, he met Susie and Joey, they became a gang chilling in Ormond’s abandoned lodge, then tried to rob a store Joey was fired from, were surprised by a cleaner who grabbed Julie, and Frank impulse stabbed him, freaked, and ordered the others to finish it with him and be in it together. Then before they’d even really finished burying the body, they got snagged. That leaves a whole lot of personality and thoughts and motivations and future choices and person wildly undetermined. Writing, sometimes characters just do their own thing completely out of my control, and I have to adapt. Frank chose not to kill Meg at the end of Tenacity, Adrenaline, & Grit, which surprised me, because he’d been nothing but a dipshit asshole bastard till one minute ago, but I knew it was because he recognized what she’d tried to do at great pain to herself because she wouldn’t bow down and die, and he connected/empathized or sympathized on some level. He also couldn’t go through with killing Quentin immediately after being helped by him in Distortion/Iron Maiden. Neither was like, planned. It’s just who the character was. I was frustrated. I did not want to like or feel sympathy for Frank at all. Then in The Lost, Jeff just fkn hijacked the whole plot and added 20 pages not in the outline because he wanted to be kind to Frank & it’s not like I can stop characters when they do whatever they do. And while writing it, I got to know that the version of Frank Morrison in the world I was writing—which is always the version I refer to/think of him as & write now myself—was not somebody past saving. He’s a piece of shit and he’s done fucked up and inexcusable stuff, and he pays for it. In many ways, Frank gets away with a lot over the course of ILM, but it’s always because characters choose on their own to forgive him, not because they or he doesn’t think it was fucked. And Frank suffers—a lot—for his choices, and has to live through appropriate and large amounts of regret and remorse about stuff he did before the end. He gets the chance to make better choices several times, and mostly he doesn’t. He continues to fuck up. But right near the end, he makes a couple good decisions when it’s down to the wire, sees where his bad choices got him and what he has to live with, and then he does live with it. He almost dies, and then ends up falling on Jeff’s mercy, which he knows he doesn’t deserve and doesn’t expect to get, for a last chance to make it, and because Jeff is an ungodly kind and forgiving soul, he makes it.

Frank isn’t a good person, and he does a lot of stuff that isn’t remotely okay or justified or excused, but he /is/ a kid—the upper end of it, but he’s not a full grown adult. He has every reason to believe nothing of himself or others, a fucked up childhood and life which isn’t his fault, and the Entity got all four Legion kids before they’d even had time to process the one and only violent crime they did (which was unplanned), and it is historically running a PHD in psychological warfare vs everyone. Absolutely none of that excuses or justifies him, but it is an explanation for some of it that is not as bad as say, doing that shit for fun or cruelty or hate or what have you, which makes him a bad person, but one with a lot more humanity left than say, Kenneth. Who is at -100 or something. If he’s still got a lot of humanity left, that means he could be redeemed, and he eventually chooses that path for himself and hits the appropriate “I did something horrible. Fuck. It was really bad. I should not have done it.” “I am really sorry I did this. I feel awful. I’m sorry.” “I cant change it, but I can try to do better and make whatever reparations I can.” “I want to be better, and I am going to try.” necessary stages of actually trying to improve. So, I like him. He did a lot of really awful shit that wasn’t okay, but he was never without sympathetic elements. He does love his friends and his girlfriend, he is a good boyfriend to Julie and selfless towards her and his crew (overall anyway—has even risked death for them very willingly, even the one who was fighting with/kinda hated him), will keep his word in deals and has some semblance of both sympathy and honor, feels guilt, is a kid, did not choose this life but was rather catapulted into it and too weak to climb out once he landed in the mud. All of that together makes him someone I feel sympathy towards and find quite redeemable, so long as he will decide he wants that, which, in ILM, he does. If you just meant Frank in general then idk how to answer because there’s not much established Frank period it’s kinda a shell like all original dead by daylight characters, and I have no thoughts on it by itself because it’s not a whole person, and so I really only think of Frank as ILM verse Frank now.

#ask #sleepy #hope this is coherant. I love answering but I’m also on vacation trip rn so I’m not proofreading & u get what u get 🤣 adds flavor #in living memory (fic)#in living memory #spoilers #ILM spoilers #Halloween #dead by daylight #long post #Michel is not the villain of Halloween: he and Laurie are both the victims & it’s a fkn Greek tragedy #they both deserved so much more than the lives they were thrown into #: (#sad now just thinkin bout it

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