#the old guard discourse

[queen-of-badomens]

I do appreciate that dispite all the fighting and vitriol in this fandom, we all collectively came together on the title 2Old2Guard and I think that’s beautiful.

#the old guard #fandom discourse #the old guard discourse #im tired #but Im still writing #sorry to those who go to reblog and can’t because I’ve blocked you at some point #curating and all that

[goldheartedsky]

Just wait til some people realize that Booker is the same brand of Queer White Mediterranean Guy that Nicky is.

#the old guard #tog discourse #straight from Grucka so it’s canon and no amount of calling Booker a “’straight white guy’ is gonna erase his bisexuality #y’all are just biphobic byeeeee #sebastien le livre #nicolo di genova

[phatburd]

I'm going to repost something I wrote about Booker in an ask into its own separate post, because some people need to hear it.

~~

Booker is not inherently selfish. Full stop.

Let me explain. In the early 2000s I was going through a really bad mental health patch. I kinda fell apart professionally and personally in the aftermath of Bush vs. Gore and pretty much hated everyone and everything.

I don’t know how many people here are old enough to remember the discussions around “enhanced interrogations.” In my really bad psychological state, I read a book that discussed the use of torture through the ages and its ineffectiveness as a tool to gather intelligence. This is because everyone has a breaking point, where they will do anything, say anything, agree to anything, just to escape the pain.

This is the point where I realized the same thing applied to depression and suicidal ideation. At some point, the pain of living becomes so goddamn intense, a person develops tunnel vision and will do anything to stop their own pain. Depression is torture without any visible mechanism. In that case, is it selfish to end your own pain?

This is where shitheads will say, “But what about all other people in your life? You’re selfish because you’ll hurt them!” No, they don’t fucking get it. That’s counterproductive because a person that far down in the hole will think, “Well, maybe they’ll be better off without me then.” The pain is so intense, you’re not thinking of others because you can’t. You just want it to end by any means necessary.

What does this have to do with Booker? Yeah, this is the mental state I imagine Booker to have been in for longer than most people have been alive. He wants it to end and he will do whatever it takes, including agreeing to things he probably wouldn’t have if he wasn’t in that mental state.

Is wanting to end your own pain weak or selfish? I’d say no. Anyone who says yes hasn’t been there, and I hope they never reach that breaking point to understand what it feels like.

#the old guard #fandom discourse #depression #you can really tell if another person has experienced a mental health crisis #by the way they treat booker #fandom meta #Booker #sebastien le livre

[nicolos]

i understand that certain people in this fandom have grown extremely brave, and that this whole event is the result of that, nevermind individual works in the event, which have made it impossible for me, at least, to go into the tag for long since the start of october - however, this, the work in the tag today, is just the absolute fucking depth of depravity.

for one: having been here for over 2 yrs now, i am familiar in some way with the way this fandom has operated, and i know that works like these are in some way almost engineered out of spite, like saying "look what i can do and you can't stop me." i am sorry to anybody that feels this is an appropriate response - it's not. it's... i hope you understand that this is not [just] angering, it's horrifying and frightening, the fact that people would bring in such a level of awfulness, this degree of it, for the sake of shocking people or spite.

to those of you who have been a part of this event and are trying to be "mild" or "normal" about it - this is the company you're in. this is what the people you are willingly associating yourself with, apparently, are doing. this is what they're creating! even if you haven't had reason to so far, please really, really think about who and what you're aligning yourself with. what it is you claim is alright or acceptable or even remotely appropriate. what you're saying about yourself by being friends with these people!

and it's not about optics or friendship or sides - if you think this is about "position" at this point, or even about the dramatic and god-awful history of this fandom, i would urge you to reconsider that not from the perspective of what's happened before, but purely from the content being created and what it reflects.

please consider what these people believe - not about fanfiction, not about artistic representation, but about characters like joe, and by extension, about real people. to anticipate the argument that these are fictional characters and that fiction isn't reality - even if that was true, your readers are real. the people looking for fic in the tags are real. the harm you cause to those people is very real

please have just a moment of thinking what it means that even one (1) person was brave enough to post something like this in the tags in this event, and what it says about how they think of this character - one of the only brown muslim mlm in all of media to be in a happy and loving long-term relationship

to those of you that have had even a moment's pause when seeing this in the tags or in some server or anywhere: please, please think about it seriously and honestly and consider why that is, and why other people haven't had that pause.

if this has been explained to you at any level, told that this is to draw out those who are trying to censor or police fanfiction and creativity, consider why that might be when clearly, any attempt that has been made has been in vain if such fic exists. and maybe have a think about why this degree of violence is considered appropriate as a way to spite naysayers - and if it should be, and if you agree with that. and what it says about those explaining it to you that they are willing to accept or offer those explanations.

#the old guard fandom #tog fandom #tog discourse #// throwing myself into the lions den huh. but i just cannot take it anymore #// i am at my limit i crossed it sometime in the first week of october

[kaythefloppa]

I'm still kinda petty posting on the whole "Lion Guard ship discourse" a little bit but it makes me laugh every time I see Lion Guard fans constantly claim that Disney ship-"baited" or "lied to them" with Kion x Fuli or act like the two were star-crossed lovers always meant to come together before the "evil writers + faceless corporation" destroyed the pairing and ended the show with Kion x Rani instead....

.....when these screenshots from Ford Riley's Instagram feed, [posted on the same day the first 10 eps of S3 came out, meaning around that time nobody at the time had any clue if Kion would remain single for the rest of the series] pretty much say otherwise.

But watch as this statement goes over people's heads and people continue to act like Kion x Fuli was something that was stolen from them and either A) hate Rani solely for "standing in the way" of their pairing, B) accuse Ford Riley of lying to them and clogging his comments with hate feed

or B) continuously hound the guy to bring back the show for a fourth season so that Fuli can compete with Rani for Kion's attention [because in a show aimed towards preschoolers, teenage adultery and catfighting for romantic attention is apparently A-OK]

#the lion guard #the lion guard kion #the lion guard fuli #Sorry for the bitter posts on this subject lately #I've just seen this shit for like the past nearly four years since the show ended. #It was really distressing/draining/fucking boring for 13 yr old me to wake up and see rabid ship discourse partakers + S4 stans #clogging up the Lion Guard tags and blatantly spreading lies + attacking anyone who used their common sense #and this isn't an attack on anyone who ships Kion x Fuli or doesn't like Rani #You are subject to your own opinion [as long as it's not bullshit] - #But just don't be an asshole about it to anyone especially those who have done nothing to deserve it. Period #definitely gonna calm myself down now that's off my chest

[didhewinkback]

i still think the dwd team didnt get enough heat for their treatment of kiki layne. using her name on every poster and her face in every trailer only to cut her part down to nothing and have her at zero of the press events.... i will not forget !

#also ive not watched the movie but the fact that her character is referenced the whole damn time #like wouldnt this fix your plot holes to have just kept her scenes in?????? #ik they got whacked for everything else but whack them again ! #like her character was the catalyst for everything and florences characters friend #and they just cut her right out #bombastic sideye u know #a year later i dont want to start any discourse just want to express myself on my blog #anyway watch the old guard and if beale street could talk

[andramaquynhs]

Just saw that the ao3 tog tag reached 10k fics and I just know aq has like. 500 of those at most :) love LOSES 😔

#last time i did the stats thing it was about 350? i think #like 2.something% #how much do you wanna bet it doesnt reach 3% nowadays #mybe i should upload all my aq art in different works and like differebt colour gradients or ehatever to help bulk it up lol #<- me hiding pain behind subpar humour. everythings fine #andromaquynh #mt #the old guard #tog discourse #i GUESS #m #q

[mearchy]

you know actually i think part of me really not liking the MCU fandom harkens back to that post i made once about how after being in the old guard and black sails and our flag means death and the magnus archives and arcane fandoms it’s really hard for me to engage creatively with media that settles for less than explicit representation (barring my special interest). like it’s very hard for me to enthusiastically embrace pieces of media the way i used to and overlook the ways they fail to represent me. i’ve seen it done so many times now, in so many ways. i’ve seen the kinds of stories that can be told with good representation and still succeed. i can’t forgive marvel any longer for keeping that from me. so like yes i will watch the source media, but i’m not going to put my own creative or personal energy into it in any way, including engaging with the fandom. i can’t idolize it the way i used to and i won’t take part in the gay shipping and trans headcanoning the characters who Marvel never bothered to actually write into their stories. it just feels like doing the work for them.

#to be CLEAR i’m not saying other people shouldn’t do that #i’m just saying that part of me maturing #has been realizing that it’s not worth it and there’s no excuse on marvel’s part #god bless the action and fantasy media that DOES give us the rep we deserve #discourse #marvel #mcu #tog #the old guard #black sails #the magnus archives #tma #ofmd #our flag means death #arcane #my special interest is star wars so you can once again thank disney for the lack of representation lmao #mine #my meta

[guideaus]

Theres some old atl/a post on here before it got put on netflix and the series was renewed, and I think the post was abt those prison guards in book 3 of atla who conversed casually and all that (not super evil villains lobbing fireballs everywhere), and tumblr rlly praised that they were shown as human beings or whatever, and normal people that don't have world domination on their minds are also participating in the fire nation/as antagonists/whatever, and I think people on here fixated on that one post way too much. That little point and the fandoms' mentality with that idea goes like triple for fm/a as a whole

#personal #not to discourse abt at/la rn but i remember rewatching at/la and thinking its weird how theres only one fire nation character who actually #opposes their nations actions #and he gets an entire ep in s1 and only comes back in s3 allied w the old guys group as like a cameo #and ik tumblr rlly likes to praise the future potential/redemption part of characters like roy mustang/iroh (war criminals) #and they acknowledge the characters that arent totally evil (prison guards/lower level military characters) #but its like. isnt the bar low... #the rockbells in fma are seen as good during ishval instead of what shouldve been the automatic right thing to do in anextreme circumstance #ik its bc theyre fictional characters and ppl love talking abt redemption arcs but idk can we raise the bar sjdhdjsks #no. i do not think arakawa making mustang more likable than scar narratively is a point shes trying to make abt sympathetic characters

[aphroditestummyrolls]

Looks like I’m just gonna have to say this, and say it, and say it again: as long as you are treating your characters with respect and bringing nuance to the tropes and shit you use, you can write most things! Just be courteous and aware of the wider social context! It’s not hard to write without being racist!

Kenzarelli can be fun when it’s properly tagged, and actually plays with the characters (not just slapping Luca and Marwan’s faces onto the same tropes over and over again). Just like all fanfiction, it needs proper tags and decent forethought, but it can be fun!

There are some things, though, that shouldn’t be given the fandom treatment? No one is writing Milosevic fanfic, or Kissinger fanfic— Raymond Westerling should be off limits out of common decency.

I’m not here to use a thousand words to say what could be said in a hundred, and I’m not gonna talk myself in circles with replies. What I will say is that it’s very telling that the author posted anonymously. Because they knew what they were doing. How ugly of them.

#fandom discourse #fandom racism #fandom etiquette #I don’t do discourse but… yikes guys what the fuck #the old guard #tog #we were due for another rehashing of this I guess #it’s been too quiet

[sholeh675]

oh wow, it felt really nice to block some of the disingenuous people in this fandom on ao3 😊 

Can’t believe we’re finally able to just block the people we don’t like there, hopefully this cuts down on some of the drama

#tog fandom #the old guard #tog discourse #this fandom is ridiculous #just block and move on people #don't make brain dead lists #honestly #critical thinking #curate your fandom experience

[goldheartedsky]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it but everyone who leaves Booker out of group art, just because they don't 'like' him, is an absolute clown. You might not like the bastard but he is part of the team and is literally driving the whole damn plot!

#the old guard #tog discourse #I don't even give a fuck that y'all are so wrapped up in your 'fandom as activism' clownery but I WILL call you out on it

[rthko]

I joked a few minutes ago about how in internet discourse anyone over 25 is a “queer elder” but come to think of it most of these young discoursers don’t even believe such a concept exists. Gay men who watched their entire friends groups perish to AIDS are “privileged cis gays,” older trans women who use dated terminology to describe their own experiences are problematic, elders are just a conservative old guard to rebel against, and anyone over thirty who speaks to you at all must be a predator. The first time I heard the phrase “okay groomer” online, it wasn’t coming from self identified conservatives but from tiktok teens reacting against leather at Pride. You guys are ignorant and uncultured and proud of it!

[kilimiria]

.

#I swear every time I tentatively join a new fandom it ends up like the Old Guard #in complete shambles over Extreme Tumblr Discourse

[togfandomsucks]

tog fandom complaining and accusing never change you racist cunts lmao

#the old guard #tog #tog discourse

[weirdrtvscomments]

This might be dickheadish to say , but I honestly kind of hope the crew doesn’t make a follow up to hlvrai - or at least if they do, it’s more in the vein of their recent AI streams like Meen and Gnome. I feel that with the story lines/jokes less focused on character relations and the anonymization of the AI voice the fans have been less… weird about it. In many senses. The isolation during COVID probably had a hand too in people just throwing discourse and weird ideas out but really the current fandom and 2020s really feel like night and day and I reallllly don’t want it to backslide.

Interesting take! I understand where are you coming form (since i had similar opinions) and i dont think it's in any way bad to think or say that.

Personally, i think that most of that "old guard" of the fandom disappeard. It's gonna be FOUR YEARS after hlvrai, pepole lost their intrest, and it's not like most of these pepole had any intrest in rtvs related stuff beyond that, lol.

But back to your ask: i had a very similar opinion to you, BEFORE gnome and other stuff happened. I was afraid that they are just gonna do the same thing again to please the fans, but the fact that they waited so long proven to me that they aren't gonna half-ass it, and that they are really going to do something very different and unique.

Like baaulp said on stream once - if they wanted, they could just make the same video again but in HL2, and get lots of money and fame. They didin't do that becuse they really care about what they are doing.

I LOVE WHEN CREATIVE PEPOLE DONT LESSEN THEIR WORK FOR THE FANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVE WHEN THEY DO WHAT THEY WANNA DO!!!!!!!!!!!!

#rtvs #<- maintaggin this one. who cares.