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alatismeni-theitsa · 5 months

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Genuine question: you often talk about the West as if Greece wasn't Western and that leaves me in doubt… isn't it Western? I always see Greece referred to as such, so I figured it was. Like, I imagine there must be some details that don't completely fit into Western molds, but in general, isn't Greece Western and is it even considered one of the main origins of the West?

Hii! This is a very good question for someone who needs context!

In summary: Greece is not exactly Western. In fact, it has more things in common with countries that are considered Eastern. Greece definitely wasn't that "Western" in ancient times compared to the rest of the countries that are considered definitely Western today. Also, Europe has taken some stuff from Greece but most things it took are not Greek in culture, meaning they don't relate to us and we don't relate to them.

But from someone who's not from our general region and has little idea about our culture, there needs to be a big explanation, so all I have to say is:

Disclaimer 1: Let's appoint the US, the UK, and Germany as some examples of "definitely western" countries, as a guide. They are surely considered Western due to their geography and history.

Disclaimer 2: I'll speak in very broad terms about nationalities. In no way this is an attack on individuals who live in these countries. The statements are meant to be political and capture generic national sentiments. For example, the sentence "historically the Greeks don't like the Turks" doesn't mean that Greeks and Turks haven't lived (and continue) to live in peace under certain circumstances.

Everything exists within proper context and even I am using "Western" in a specific context. What is called "Western" today is a standard created by the European countries of Western Europe. And it doesn't make sense cause there are no clear limits between cultures. It's all a gradient, as I said in the past.

I also don't like how by "Western" we imply "progressive and technologically advanced". I haven't seen people fight about whether Albania is Western, although it's more Western than Greece geographically.

In fact, many a time I've seen maps like the one below isolate Greece and put it in the Western category but so many nations right above and west of Greece are not Western?? Notice how they show "West" = "pre-colonial/colonial nations/global empires (what I refer to as "the West" in my posts) + Greece" 😂 (Usually Turkey is also excluded, so I won't comment too much on that right now.) I mean... isn't this whole presentation... weird?? It's not even based on who is a NATO ally and who's not.

Greece is one of the most eastern European countries. Greeks existed in Minor Asia for thousands of years (Asian Greeks baby!) and we literally are right next to where Asia begins. Our capital for almost a thousand years was Constantinople which is in modern Turkiye, and Greeks still make pilgrimage there.

Our differences with the countries posing as the of the West are far greater than they want you to believe. The reason is that the western European powerful nations still want to claim the ancient Greek stuff as the basis of their national identity, and to do so they have to lump us in with their own kind. Only very recently they got "gracious" enough to do that. For most of history they claimed all things ancient Greek for themselves buuut they saw Greeks as "fallen from glory" and "mixed" and "these can't be the descendants of the ancients we admire!" (They had idealised our ancestors a looot in their minds, and by their own NW European standards) That's why maps such as the above exist.

The cultural divide in ancient times was much larger. We were kissing with tongue with Persians, Palestinians, Phoenicians and Lower Egyptians. The battle with Persians wasn't - as today west Europeans and the US want to frame it as a battle between East and West. The Persians were our freaking neighbours! 😂 Our cultures were - and still are - very similar. (Food, music, expression/openness, social politeness, phrasing)

Then came the old Rome, then came the Renaissance, and in these periods Western Europe got a bit more influenced by Greek aesthetics, for sure. But as I said the divide was greater when speaking about ancient times. Okay, our neighbors on the Italian and Iberian peninsula would be more like us, but the Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Norse, and Danish tribes were quite unrelated to the Greeks culturally. Even half of Italy (the Northern part) today don't see us as neighbors, because they are closer to other nations by land. (verified this with some friends abroad)

To go back to why I usually exclude Greece from "Western": "Western" is a standard term that former (and modern) colonial powers have created and choose to identify themselves and others with (if they deem them "worthy enough").

As I said, the term can be synonymous with power and progress, but it ignores powerful countries such as India, China, Japan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Iran which have greater industries and more power than Greece. (This is a 2017 map but it still holds, I feel😂) Notice that Greece is not even at the bottom.

Greeks also often feel we don't fit the Western mold. Usually, however, they use the term "European" to substitute the "Western" term but in our minds it's the same thing. Additionally, most Greeks growing up - especially with the rise of communication with other Balkanians through the internet - realise that we have most things in common with our geographical neighbours. The video below is an example of that.

youtube

So, why don't we feel that European/Western?

As I mentioned in the beginning, Europe is not Greek in culture. Few of the things West Europe took from us were partly influenced by the cultural climate at the time (like philosophy and the three-act structure of theater). What about the rest? What do trigonometry and astronomy and people voting have to do with one's culture? I mean are people supposed to understand my culture through functions and equations, or the 5th century BCE aesthetics of the human body?

(And to answer your question, no. They have no idea how our names, words, culture food, and music have been. They often confuse clearly Latin words with Greek words, and that's the pinnacle of their interaction with our culture😂)

We have more in common with Turks, Persians and Lebanese than we have with Germans and Swedes. Because Middle Easterners and Northeast Africans have been our neighbors for millennia. To further demonstrate the point, Greeks in Northwestern Europe feel more comfortable with Arabs, Turks, Persians and Indians than with anyone else. And they don't vibe with the Northwestern locals that much because the Greek culture is not close to theirs. (That's a generalization of course but you can't imagine how many Greeks I've heard stating that)

I don't find it unreasonable for someone to lump Greece with the Western countries because that's where our allies are at the moment. As a nation, we look to Western nations for infrastructure (Although it doesn't work too well for us sometimes because the compatibility isn't there. Like the EU gives us money to plant certain trees that are not good for our climate and how often shit catches fire here). And, of course, sometimes Greece happens to be… geographically western than many countries. So in this case "western" also applies.

At the same time, someone should bear in mind that Greece has existed under the pressure-ehhh influence of Western European nations for a long time. After the fifteenth century, they've been stealing our artifacts, fetishizing our struggles, not listening to our people in Greek cultural characteristics (such as the language), noting our "unattractive" looks (and skin sometimes) etc. I mean, they still do all of this stuff sooo… how are we supposed to feel comfortable in the same group as them?

Add the Turkish occupation from 500-600 years so there's additional Islamic and Middle Eastern influence, and cultural exchange from Greeks and towards Greeks in the Ottoman Empire.

There's also the matter of religion and East Europe is religiously and - to a large degree - culturally Orthodox. This plays a larger part in the cultural divide between West and East Europe. In fact, religion played a big part, a thousand years ago, in the schism between west and east Europe.

This difference in cultures, and the dismissive attitude of the West towards Greeks and other East Europeans, shows from Charlemagne's time. A thousand years ago and more, West Europeans were calling Greeks (and generally Eastern Romans/ Byzantines) barbarians and degenerates. Greece has been orientalised a lot in Western art over the past few centuries.

The first colonial "stock company" in History was in the Byzantine/Hellenic island of Chios in the 14th century, established by Genoese occupiers! The island was managed by a monopoly share-charter "Company", Maona. The Company held the monopoly of the world's unique Chiot mastic, as well as control of the import and export trade, while many locals became slave-workers. The "Latins" (Genoese) took hundreds of buildings and homes for themselves. Later the Maona company expanded in Cyprus.

It had come to a point where Greeks and Byzantines in general preferred to be conquered by the Turks rather than the Latins (Francs, Venetians, Genoese). You can find the full history of this conflict in this article.

One should also bear in mind Greeks have been through slavery on a national level (called "chattel" too), and faced oppression, assimilation, and genocide. What I mean is: If someone is representative of the Western Powers…. that's not us 😂 We only play pretend. We are not the ones making the rules or decisions. For example, our PM asked the state of Israel (with which we are supposedly allies under Western contracts) to not harm the Greeks in Gaza, then the Greek Orthodox temple was bombed and our Western allies didn't give a shit.

Greece smiles and nods along so it can sit at the table with the Big Boys. It's not a Big Boy and I doubt it'll ever be for a long time. It can't turn towards the East (because Turkey, the old political and religious enemy) so it turns towards the West. And it has become an obedient puppy of the US and Germany. And if we refuse to play pretend, there's always some type of punishment. I won't absolve our country from all political responsibility. I'm just saying that we usually lack the power for things to go our way.

The reason for our nation's existence is the Western colonial powers (in Greece we call them the Big Powers) wanting to destabilise the Ottoman empire. They didn't give a shit about the Greek state existing. I mean sure they appreciated having one more pawn in the area, but they mainly wanted the Ottoman power to dwindle. The Big Powers gave and took land from us as they saw fit, for their own interests. (They did the same with other nations, too, of course). Our country's debt to the Big Powers started before our nation formed when they sold us half-ruined ships for a very high price.

(Although our debt became significantly worse after 2009, when our people gave money to stabilise their banks.)

So I ask again, how is a Greek - politically and socially - to feel comfortable in the Western group? Especially when we have actual neighbors in the Balkans and the Middle East who are almost like us culture-wise? And, don't East nations have Mathematics and Philosophy and Democracy (most at least) and Theatre and Astrophysics? In the study of things coming from Greece they have nothing to envy from the West. They were studying this stuff waaaay earlier, too!

So the argument of "who has taken the most from Greece" is purely political because if we actually measured, our neighbors are the ones who have the most similarities to us. (Yes, the political and social corruption rates too, as I've been told 😂)

Not to mention there can be found colonial/imperial attitudes from Western European nations which Greece cannot identify with. Except for the obvious neo-colonialism and the pressure to have more military bases on our grounds, there are more.

Some of these attitudes are; refusing to communicate in English, refusing to use subtitles and insisting on watching everything dubbed, straight up altering the names of foreign colleagues to appeal to them more, nitpicking on shades of white and what shade of white is "bad", having the impression that the world is as safe and comfortable as their own country, only getting you out of second class in their minds when you start speaking their language fluently exhibiting one of the highest forms of assimilation, treating East European cultures like an exhibition or a theme park.

Don't be mistaken, the use of language is a power play. Greece also has colorism, but the NW nations take it to another level, trust. It would kill them to admit they might have the same skin tone as someone from China, whereas the Greeks (although not void of racism) wouldn't think to compare the skin tones as different. And they don't categorize slightly darker peoples compared to theirs as another "race" entirely.

I know I rumbled again but there are many things to consider when it comes to Greece's position on the map that's not limited to geography. I also want to put many disclaimers and explanations around because someone away from our area is missing context, and they might misinterpret our notions through their own lens. Hopefully, my answer covered the main points and gave a better picture of our identification.

#answered #the west #idk what other tags to use here :p #greek history #greece #maps #identification #colonialism #chios #latins

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