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#they hate me because I don't reply

fixing-bad-posts · 4 months

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you are lovely and i love you. may you always feel loved and be full of love

you're too sweet, anon. i wonder about the 'me' that exists in your mind. for the record, i am indeed loved and full of love <3

well wishes!

#i got a flood of lovely asks of this ilk after i replied to that hate anon #if you sent one and i don't reply to it‚ please know it was kindly received <3 #also please know that i only posted that hate anon because it was so badly composed that it made me laugh #my feelings were not actually hurt i promise #ask fbp #anon ask

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panharmonium · 5 months

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Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric! It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start. People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them. That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great! I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7. If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi. That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text. But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great! But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.” She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1. She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father). But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time. This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together. She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does. Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation. She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here. I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home. Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!” And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better. Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark. This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling. There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered? Of course it is! But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!”

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention. The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants. She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him. She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t. But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction. She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him). “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish. It’s irrational. It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation. They both still think they can fix him themselves. They both think they can save him themselves. They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests. Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything. Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes. What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests. They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children. They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about. Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES. He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him. He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.” She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me. It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE. How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has. Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about? Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him. He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side. Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets. I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys. She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation). But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much. Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki? Good, appropriate. The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does? Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them. Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden? Juicy! AND thematically significant (promises!!!! the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again). Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start? HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)? BRUH. Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win?? INCREDIBLE. (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!! It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!” I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.) And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!” I love her for that.

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all. Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him. She cares about him too much. This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others. She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1). This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be. Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too. Time didn’t just stop for them when he left. While he was turning into someone new, so were they. They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear. Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return. He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him. And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance.

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way. The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him. And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back. She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago). That’s huge! Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter. She stayed her hand. She spared his life. She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down. She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain. Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation. This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down. Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc. She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically. She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her. She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”). She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her. She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit. She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him. He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him. She still wants to help him. She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development. It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers! She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality. The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7). He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking. His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers! She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest. He always has. She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise. Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective. Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here. We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god. She’s finally going to let him have it. It’s finally happening - ” I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me). But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.” That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her. He thinks about all of them. Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine. He cared about her once. He cared about all of them. She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story. I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three. It doesn’t work like that for me. The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine. My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive. That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else. You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story.

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

#naruto #meta #replies #anyway that's that! hopefully that is a helpful answer #thank you for the question! i honestly don't think i would have ever gotten around to writing about this if i hadn't been directly asked #i love talking about the stories i enjoy (obviously; we all do; that's why we're here)#but i'm usually ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about responding to takes that blatantly misread the narrative to justify hating a particular character or ship #mostly because a) it's whatever. as long as people mind their own business and leave me to enjoy myself they can do what they want #and b) some opinions are so divorced from the actual text that they're not worth discussing #like. what's the point of responding to random internet posts saying that sakura was selfishly pursuing sasuke as a lover the entire time #when that is textually and provably not the case?#if you're that committed to experiencing things in direct contradiction to what the narrative is asking of us then just go ahead #is it mildly annoying to me? sure. but so are lots of things and it's better to just let stuff go #like - i initially planned to take this piece of meta all the way up through sakura and sasuke's last scene together #the one where he tells her 'maybe next time' and finally reclaims and redefines itachi's forehead tap (INCREDIBLE. THIS SCENE.)#but ultimately i changed my mind because everything i wrote for that last section was coming out too harsh #i generally prefer to talk about fandom stuff in a chill/friendly approachable way #but i kept thinking about the most obscenely & disrespectfully inaccurate read of that scene i'd ever seen #and i couldn't figure out how to talk about it in a non-scathing way #that scene and the one where naruto gives sasuke's headband back are the ONLY well-written things about the finale of naruto #they are SO perfectly constructed and i can't respond to people slandering either one without feeling an urge to kill #so i just deleted it. partially because again - this is fandom; it's not that serious; people can do what they want #but also because i know i get extra frustrated about people picking over the text and plucking out isolated bits and pieces #to contort into blatantly misinterpreted mutant shapes that 'confirm' whatever pre-existing judgments or ships they had #instead of experiencing the story as a cohesive whole & keeping in mind the greater context of what it's always been trying to communicate #people on this website say 'we all interpret things differently :)' as if it means no one can ever be wrong about what a text is saying #newsflash: not all interpretations of a text are valid. things can't in fact mean whatever you want them to mean.#the ***story*** persists and exists even if the author is dead to you #if you choose to ignore that then that's fine; it's just fandom; who cares. but i'm not going to pretend you're 'analyzing' anything.#(ok now i'm really done. you can see why i deleted this section XD)

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bedlamsbard · 1 month

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Might I ask your opinions on Steve/Nat/Bucky as a throuple?

Not my thing because amongst other reasons I'm honestly just not that interested in Bucky -- I see the attraction and I know a lot of people who are very into him, but it's not a character type that does anything for me. I also feel like I've just been really overexposed to Bucky in fandom, both on his own and in various ship combinations, and am generally kind of burnt out on the character and ships thereof over the course of the last 13 years in and around MCU fandom. I don't have anything against the character on his own, I just basically see too much of him around. (As well as being here on the Tumblr/AO3 side of the fandom, I'm also in the pin-collecting and cosplay sides, and if you're anywhere around the Captain America and Black Widow segments of the fandom, there is just...a lot of Bucky. Which is understandable but kind of frustrating for me if I'm not there for that particular character.)

In general I also find that it's impossible to find any kind of BuckyNat (or combos thereof) that's MCU-based rather than comics-based, which means disregarding basically everything about Natasha's backstory and characterization from the MCU in order to transfer her comics backstory over to the MCU, which is a huge no-go for me these days. (This was a little more understandable back in 2012 when there just wasn't that much to go on, but it is 2024 now; in general I find most of the fic that stems from 2011-2016 to be near-unreadable for me these days which is actually incredibly frustrating, since until I started writing in it the MCU was my longest-running reading fandom even when I wasn't actually in the fandom. There are fics -- of various ships -- that I have been reading for ten plus years that I can't read anymore.) I realize I got seriously into the fandom after the Black Widow movie came out, but even before that you couldn't really transfer her comics backstory over to the MCU, with or without the Bucky relationship. I've also found, reading the ship on and off over the course of the past thirteen years (like I said, I've been here for a while), that very few authors are actually interested in the SteveNat of that particular threesome and it tends to slant towards being a combination of BuckyNat and SteveBucky rather than a true OT3. And I'm a SteveNat truther, so... *hands*

The short version of all that is that it doesn't do it for me, but I get why people like it.

#sorry that this is a bummer of an answer!#I think I was actually thinking about this the other day because I reread some combination of stevebuckynat fics #and was trying to figure out why I had such a negative reaction to them #my curse is that of the various steve-bucky-natasha-peggy ships I virulently hate all of them #except for stevebucky which I am neutral on these days but don't actually ship #and stevenat because I am a stevenat truther #every other combo in there I really dislike and unfortunately nearly all the combos are more common than stevenat #which everyone else characterizes differently than I do anyway #well probably not EVERYONE but I've never read a fic that hits the points about it that do it for me #and then I hit the point where I mostly had to give up reading in my writing fandom #skywalkerrisen #bedlam replies

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yukipri · 2 months

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So I saw the news about AI being introduced to Tumblr from you so first of THANK YOU so much. I have a lot of writing on Tumblr that I'll be moving.

I also wanted to ask if you'd heard of Cohost? Me and my friends are migrating there, it has the same features (in some ways) as Tumblr, but it's pretty new and empty, and is also run by a SMALL team of developers who listen to the users and fix things while keeping corporations out of the equation.

As soon as I heard of Cohost, I thought of you and other artists I know. Have a splendid rest of your day/night.

Glad I was able to help put the deeply unfortunate news on your dash!

(honestly, beyond general feeling furious they're doing the GenAI deal at all, I feel like if it's automatically opt-in, the very LEAST @staff could do is send out an email to every user + make it a pop up that everyone has to click out of at least once informing us all that our data has been opted in and how we can opt out. That it's just the one staff post, and everything else we have to spread by word of mouth is...deeply unfortunate)

I hadn't heard of Cohost, but thank you for telling me about it! I'll keep it in mind if moving looks to be necessary. But while I can discard my other socials if need be, Tumblr is where I found myself as a fan creator, and I've been here for over ten years. I really hope I don't have to move.

There's that, but I've also made a BlueSky and Threads, neither of which I've really had the spoons to be active on, as well as my primary socials of Twitter and Insta, and Patreon and AO3 if they count. I feel like I've just got a bit too many rn, and I want to see where communities will settle, and if GenAI can be regulated to save some of the ones currently existing.

Everything feels like it's in an unstable state of flux rn, which is super stressful! And I just hope it can be temporary, for all of our sakes ;_;

❀ ❀ Send YukiPri an Ask! ❀ ❀

#YukiPri replies #Anonymous #social media #yeah i used this as an excuse to promote all my socials lol #but also more and more i'm wondering if patreon will be the only place i can show my art #glaze and nightshade makes it ugly #big watermarks and lower resolution do too #and patreon is the only place where i can post higher res les watermarked and now no glaze no nightshade #sigh i hate this #why is 'i want to share something i worked hard on that i love' so difficult?#why does that need to follow up by 'and now i will desecrate that very work because if i don't people will hurt me'#isn't that awful??

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randomnameless · 4 months

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Is Supreme Leader the worst-written example of the “Evil King/Emperor” archetype in FE?

I'd say the worst written might be Marquis Laus -

But only because FE7 isn't concerned with the Evil King/Emperor Archetype, instead, the main villain is Gharnef !

Bar that, worst written example can only be, imo, Rudy from SoV.

I legit can't find anything positive to say about the guy, who apparently was very worried about the blue people so he sent his only son away in the rival country/state (and sent said son's mom in a monastery/thing?), with the purpose of having his son topple that other country so he can lead an army, in the intercontinental war he will have started, to kill him, become a "hewo" and then kill the lizard turning into goo - something he cannot do himself, despite having killed the lizard with her lesbian harem a few days earlier.

Complete with letting his edgy nephew in the dark, creating a marianna trench rift between his nephew and his son that ends in his nephew losing his remaining sanity by torching his wife - on top of making every Rigelian with half a brain despise his son -

And that was his plan to save the world??

What the actual fuck???

#anon #replies #damn writing this reminds me how much Rudy was a waste of pixels #and all the sad uwus and sobfest surrounding his death #dude had jerome roam around and nuibaba and couldn't get rid of Jedah #but starting a war against Zofia was A-Ok? Because if Alm doesn't die the first witch he will save the world? Somehow???#I hated how Mycen told Alm to suck it up when Alm called Rudy an ass for forcing a paricide #and removing any chance of Alm managing to befriend and have a normal relationship with his cousin #like sure Berkut was a classicist asshole #but I won't believe Rudy 'a wise man don't give third chances' didn't play a part in it #and yet the game has the nerve to say everything is somehow duma's fault?#look at the proto uwu #Rudolph was an asshole but somehow it's Duma's fault #yeah sure #FE15 #salt

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xxlovelynovaxx · 5 months

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The point of vote blue no matter who at this point isn't even about getting our needs met, especially as minorities

It's about picking the less autocratic fascist option, the party that would rather neglect us to death rather than outright kill us, so that we're still ALIVE come next election cycle and can continue building community resources independent of our passively genocidal state!

Like, yeah I'm a profoundly disabled trans crip. My vote doesn't "not matter" because politicians will never, EVER give a shit about me. That much is true. It matters because I remember how suicidal I was when Trump wanted to pass legislation that would have made even people like me ineligible for SSI, and how the Biden administration just. Hasn't bothered with SSI. It matters when Republicans are openly trying to force queer people into hiding by way of military dictatorship, and democrats sometimes use lip service in favor of some of us for their platform.

Like. I get it. It's not much of a lesser evil to be left to die than to be murdered. But goddammit, when you ARE building community and organizing and doing the other things to survive as best you can...

Idk. I'd rather that than actively looking death in the eyes. I do in fact think that the preservation of life, no matter how thin the pretense which causes it, still fucking matters

#the epitome of leftist community btw #the person I'm vagueing tbh is one of the people I most admire in so many ways and on so many topics #but the outright doomerism on this. when EVERY POST is like 'its not about change its about buying time and not dying'#when they're usually so good about 'we can't wait for glorious revolution we gotta help people NOW'#but with voting we gotta wait until there's someone worth voting for rather than choosing the one that won't KILL us??#like I don't hate this person and quite frankly I fucking empathize because I've been a screaming rat in a cage about these things for YEARS #but it just. annoys me. at the end of the day it's just super fucken annoying #and that's okay. I'm still gonna support them in every possible way bc no I don't think they're doing any real harm I'm just. pissed off #and that's my own business #(hence vagueing rather than replying since they don't even follow me lol)

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bluravenite · 11 months

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I know this probably wasn't intended badly or as a critique but

Do not comment on the way i draw Ghoul's bodies.

They're my personal headcanons and I don't care if you don't think a swimmer and touring musician would have a muscular build.

You don't like it? Draw them yourself.

I have designed these ghouls with my own personal headcanons and considerations of their back stories and real life inspirations.

I do not want to see tags in my art saying "he's too soft :(" "they're so buff :(" "why is she hour glass shaped?"

Especially when it's someone like cumulus who i have drawn several times before out of uniform and she is clearly not naturally "hour glass shaped" but ffs SHAPE WEAR EXISTS, especially if it's a uniform you wear to perform?!! She's gonna wanna have back and bust support!!! I have publicly headcanoned that ghouls wear corsetry for support!! I'm not just drawing her skinnier i am just considering other fucking variables!!!

Why are rain, swiss and mountain more physically built??? Because rain is a swimmer and i have used references of Olympic medalist swimmers to use as reference for how i wanted to draw him as well as looked at surfer body types, most of which were skinnier but toned!!! So that's why?? Mountain bc he's in the fucking garden doing sowing and planting work and playing the fucking drums, that's some fucking heavy ass equipment he's helping the band move and he does it seamlessly!!! Swiss also??? He's a multi, he's tall too, he's gotta be strong to help with everything they need, plus you think that he's gonna be bending ghouls over if he were so skinny??? Probably not!!

Another petty one. Consider more variables?? Aka working out releases lactic acid, and the surge of fluids causes your muscle cells to swell up, especially if you're drinking something like a protein drink without a carb/fat filled breakfast.

Do you think a DEMONIC HUMANOID CREATURE, that wakes up at dawn to have a protein shake AND GO SWIMMING AND SURFING is not??? Gonna look??? Buff????

Like??? Sorry if this rant sounds petty but I'm genuinely tired of dealing with people commenting on my own personal original designs.

I have never claimed to be drawing the people on stage. I am drawing MY OWN CHARACTERS, based on the real thing.

Don't just comment on people's characters or art if it's not something they can fix within 3 strokes of their pen.

#raven rants #i am just tired #i thought we were over this Tumblr #if you dont like how i draw my ghouls then just don't reblog??#and if you are curious as to why i draw them like that?? JUST ASK!!#I usually try to be the nicest i can be to people who are respectful and nice to me #if you shoot me a quick dm saying “hey! i saw this post i was wondering why he's so buff!”#I'll just reply!!! “thank you! i draw hom like that because xyz”#i hate having to make callout posts like these even if they're general but IT BOTHERS ME #to see comments like that in my art!!! bc ??? its my art??? i get to draw WHATEVER I WANT!!!#and i don't owe ANYONE AN EXPLANATION

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twpsyn-who · 9 days

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Talking a little bit about 'boycotting Eurovision' under Keep Reading, feel free to scroll down if is not what you want to see.

The most used argument on the matter of banning Israel from Eurovision is the fact that Russia got banned from Eurovision, which is the worst argument anyone could bring.

Kindly reminder that Russia didn't get banned because of the war with Ukraine. Russia got banned because many countries has threatened to withdraw from the competition. Sadly, that's a big difference.

Yes, the countries has threatened to withdraw because they support Ukraine and see Russia as the party in the wrong. That was their reason. EBU's reason for banning Russian was because those countries threatened to withdraw, not because the war was bad and Russia must be stopped.

This situation isn't the same. Why? Because many countries support Israel in their genocide. Because this time around Palestine is the party in the wrong. Because we're taught to believe that Israel isn't in the wrong here.**

Boycotting Eurovision won't work. There are people out there who don't know the truth and want to watch Eurovision. There are people out there who don't care and will watch Eurovision regardless of the situation. There are people out there who, despite having the facts, still don't see Israel as the bad guy in this situation and will watch Eurovision. Sadly, boycotting won't work unless everyone does it.

The only way Israel will get banned, in my opinion, is by going through the same thing as Russia. If other countries threatened to withdraw- and not any countries, but the ones investing the most in Eurovision, then yes. That will get Israel banned.

Otherwise? The only thing we do is hurt artists that don't deserve it. Artists who use Eurovision as a way to get more exposure and experience. Artists who deserve to be heard.

Don't vote for Israel's entry. Don't stream their song either. Heck, turn off the TV when is their turn to perform.

**This whole situation (the war, not Eurovision) isn't only black and white. Civilians die daily because of this, all of them from both sides. Innocent people who has no fault. Let's not forget that

#Honestly I'm tired of the whole 'Russia got banned Israel should be banned too' speech because is truly bullshit #It has nothing to do with the war per se. It was because countries were unwilling to participate in support for Ukraine #If the whole situation was truly political then other countries wouldn't be able to participate either #Is it fair? No. But that's the situation #Alas Eurovision exist so we forget about the bad in the world for a bit and be more united. Have some fun. Stuff like that #I'm going to get so much hate over this omg. But this is just my opinion/point of view on the matter #Sadly this whole situation isn't even about helping the innocent put in danger by this situation. Is about hate like everything else #My wording is so shitty but people on the internet don't understand shit unless I call 'X bad Y good' so we go with that #eurovision 2024 #Also another reminder that THE WHOLE AUDIENCE chanted 'Cha Cha Cha' during eurovision 2023 and were rotting for Finland to win just to lose #Many entries got fucked up by the jury votes too. Our opinion doesn't matter as much as some of you might think lol #Jury votes GOT CHANGED during another eurovision under shitty reasons (I can't remember which year but there were 5 or 6 countries who got #their votes changed). Eurovision has never been fair #We always get annoyed over it and trash talk it then watch it the next year #Also this is not the same as boycotting brands and shit like that who support Israel. No money go from Eurovision to Israel.#This competition as far as I am aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't support Israel in any way #Be it financially or by donating arms or any other way #Their only fault is for allowing Israel to participate. That's all #Weapons* don't ask me why I said arms instead sorry #i'm tired lol #Fair warning I won't answer any replies to this post

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mattodore · 1 year

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so now please tell me more about matthew, i wanna know details 🤭

he's awful. okay great that was the end of the post! come back again for more in depth character discussions! no, i'm kidding. okay so...

cw for mentions of child abuse, violence, and homophobia.

this is matthias... everyone say hi matthias 🙄

matthias is a man in his mid-twenties who's at the top of the world and still dissatisfied. born the son of a famous actress with old hollywood pedigree and a shady oil tycoon, matthias is old money rich and it's all filth, baby. with a father who saw him only as an heir to succeed him upon death and a mother who resented him for ruining her career and trapping her with his father, most of matthias's childhood was spent alone reading impressive books and analyzing the characters within the stories. not for fun. he was learning how he ought to behave since his interactions with actual people were so limited. he wasn't necessarily neglected since there were always attendants at his heel... but he was never loved — it wasn't even something he knew how to miss. he was a very quiet child. unsettlingly so. he had very little social interaction and was... a nasty little boy.

matthias went from home schooling at the hands of his expensive tutors to private school around age ten, but when he was eleven or so he was expelled from private school for slamming another boy's hand in a desk for trying to take one of his things. he broke bone very easily and didn't feel inclined to apologize or feel even an ounce of regret. after that incident, matthias was sent to a strict co-ed boarding school with no qualms with relation to corporal punishment. the distance from the cavernous manor he grew up in and the experience of actually living with people, and specifically of forced socialization with kids his own age, aided his growth. humanized him. this is when he met imani, who became his best friend.

over the years and through puberty, matthias began to come into his own as a gay man and, like many things in his life even including breaking that kid's hand, he felt no shame about it. absent parents means an absence of influence. sure, there were teachers who would say things, but matthias was always smarter than his teachers and he never valued anyone's opinions over his own.

by age fifteen his father's health had declined to a point of emergency. matthias was pulled out from school and brought home as his father suddenly felt it was important to unload his "wealth of knowledge" onto him. his mother was around much more frequently then. after a few months his father finally passed away.

when the will was read and it was announced that matthias, at the age of 21, was to be given the entirety of his father's estate and fortune, the room was silent. his mother, who a month before found matthias in flagrante delicto with one of the younger stableboys, neatly grabbed a decanter off an end table and threw it at him, badly scarring his chin, and said she knew she should have told his father he was corrupted. from then, matthias was sent to a different boarding school (a reformation school) out of spite; his new school was much more harsh, offered very little autonomy, and in many ways broke him. his mother sent him there every year up until he turned eighteen, after which point he lived with imani. at the age of twenty-one he took back the manor he grew up in. his mother, long-since estranged, had already left it empty.

as an adult, matthias is bored of everything and seeks out whatever can make him feel something, only he doesn't know what exactly he's looking for.

matthias is intelligent, independent, uninhibited, loyal to some, romantic when he wants to be, and exceptionally charming for the audience. when he takes the mask off, matthias loses the veneer of mystery and instead offers the reality: he's erratic, amoral, hedonistic, selfish, disdainful, and numb with unimaginable wealth.

#matthias has a lot of qualities that mark him as untrustworthy and manipulative............. also he talks to himself which <3 love that #river dipping #asks #anonymous #matthias evanoff #echthroi #s: echthroi #oc extras #SORRY THIS TOOK SO LONG... idk why it was so hard for me to reply to this lmao the avpd got to me what can i say #this one is a little longer than theo's bc i feel like i have to explain a lot so ppl don't just hate matthias immediately dkjfngkjnfdg #and also because a lot of theo's backstory is trauma... and tho i did give a warning for it i just didn't want to get into it #there's a lot that happens wrt theo that i've just not shared... kind of blotted out entire years of his life honestly...#also huge fan of your phone(?) autocorrecting his name to matthew bc i love calling him matty just bc i know it'd annoy him

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youremyonlyhope · 1 year

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In Defense of Tolya/Inej

(A long rambling essay exploring asexuality, "shipping wars," and the effect that constant cancellations has had on fandom. 4600 words. I'm not even sorry that it's long. There's a tldr at the end.)

Let's start this off by saying I am asexual. Or demisexual... greysexual... aceflux... the point is I am on the asexual spectrum. I don't know where precisely. I don't personally think it really matters for me to specifically define it. I am somewhere over there. I also consider myself to be somewhere on the aromantic spectrum (for that one I'm 90% sure I lean toward greyromantic).

All of this is to say: asexuality and aromanticism are both spectrums. They are umbrella terms. There are subgroups within them to help describe the range of the spectrum, but if people want to just use asexual or aromantic to describe themselves then they can. Where I fall is different from where someone else falls, and that's different from where another person falls, and that's probably different from the person reading this if you are ace and/or aro too. And it's different for Tolya. There isn't one aroace experience and there isn't one type of aroace representation.

A little more about me. I am also mixed race. More specifically Black and white like Jesper, but mixed people of all races know the shared experiences of feeling like we're between two worlds. It's not as obvious in the show (I can't remember if it's even mentioned but I can see that some fans don't seem to know), but in in the books Tamar and Tolya are half-Shu and half-Ravkan. Also, I am a twin. I am a girl with a boy twin. My twin brother is a foot taller than me. So, Tamar and Tolya's existence in the Grishaverse speak to MY SOUL. Tamar, Tolya, and Jesper make me feel like so many parts of myself are represented on these pages.

Moving on from my background. Just another reminder that ace is a spectrum. Aro is a spectrum. Life. Is. A. Spectrum.

Onto the actual topic: Tolya. In the books, Tolya doesn't have any love interests. He also notably says "I have my faith, my books. I've never wanted more," in Rule of Wolves. This leads many fans to headcanon him as ace, aro, or aroace. I headcanon him as aroace too. I loved that one almost throwaway line and it made me feel even more connected to Tolya. I recently reread the Shadow and Bone trilogy and it renewed my love for Tolya. The perfect casting of Lewis Tan also reignited my excitement for seeing this character that I adore appear onscreen.

It seems, from the scene of Tolya helping Inej onto the boat, that the show will explore the possibility of Tolya and Inej being together. THIS IS OK. This is ok specifically because THE STORY IS NOT OVER.

I find that when I am worried about something, going over worst case scenarios and best case scenarios can help me calm down. Let's list a few possibilities of where this will lead:

Tolya and Inej fall in love. Inej forgets Kaz exists. Tolya's possible aroace-ness is never acknowledged. They spend all their time kissing and having sex, never again hunting slavers or reciting poetry ever. If Inej and Kaz meet again, she'll break his heart because they'll never get together. Kaz dies alone. Tolya and Inej then have 20 kids.

Tolya develops (or has already developed) a crush on Inej. It's understandable, she helped save his life and they fought well together against Ohval. Tolya is a very outwardly affectionate person: he's open about his feelings (hence the constant poetry recitation), he loves to care for the people around him (sharing food with multiple characters, helping Jesper with Wylan), he values his blade (his hallucination nightmare is Tamar dying on his blade, he doesn't notice people ducking out of the way of his handle), and he is incredibly spiritual (praying in Shu-Han, but many more examples in the books, the show has barely touched the surface of his spirituality). He is nearly the polar opposite of Kaz, and Inej has said that Kaz cannot give her what she wants, so that probably draws Inej towards Tolya. They get closer after spending time at sea, and they start a relationship. They stay together through the end of the show. Kaz either stays alone or finds someone else. Tolya's aroace-ness is never acknowledged.

Everything from #2, except they don't stay together through the end of the show. Inej realizes that despite Tolya being able to give her what she thinks Kaz can't, she still wants Kaz. And Kaz, now having been away from Inej for a period of time and possibly working through some of his touch aversion and other anxieties, wants to try to meet Inej somewhere in the middle after knowing with it's like to almost lose her to someone else. She accepts Kaz, leaves Tolya, and Tolya is fine with it (because I can't imagine Tolya ever holding a grudge for that). Tolya's aroace-ness isn't never acknowledged, but is probably somewhat implied (something along the lines of telling Inej the "faith and books" line to reassure her).

Everything from #2, but this time Tolya is the one who realizes that this might not be what he wants. Maybe he realizes that he has romantic feelings for Inej but not sexual. Maybe he realizes that he has sexual feelings for Inej but not romantic. Maybe he realizes his feelings for Inej are purely platonic and the intensity comes from his gratitude for saving him. Or maybe the intensity comes from them connecting through their spirituality. This could either lead to Inej feeling sad and rejected and turning to Kaz for some comfort, OR she just agrees that the feelings aren't the same as what she had for Kaz. Kaz has now worked through some of his trauma. So they end the relationship, Toya is happy with his faith and books, and Inej reconnects with Kaz romantically.

The look that Tolya gave Inej wasn't from some sort of romantic interest, but instead intrigue at the chance of getting to know her better. They become best friends with their bond starting from their mutual love for blades and their spirituality. They become the blade fighting duo we never knew we needed. The show never mentions his sexuality, he just stays single.

Same as #5, but they also Tolya say the "faith and books" line and confirm he's aroace.

The show sees the negative response from some fans and does a complete 180, never addressing the possibility Tolya and Inej again. I do not want this to happen. Not because I like Tolnej, but because I hate that fan response and pandering has become a thing in the current age of social media and letting fans influence media. It completely ruined the Rise of Skywalker. I fully believe it's influenced RTD's Doctor Who (I can go more in depth on that another time). Looking at these examples, I would rather the Shadow and Bone writers continue with whatever storyline they already have planned rather than shift to appease some of the fans, even if that planned storyline isn't something I will like. People need to remember that the fans who care enough to speak on social media, both positively and negatively, only make up a small percentage compared to the entire viewership. So I definitely do not want them to take fan response into account when planning the show. Leigh is an executive producer, so I trust she wouldn't let them explore something with her characters and her world that she wouldn't mind seeing herself.

Kaz, in my headcanon, also falls somewhere on the asexual spectrum. Whether it's because of his touch aversion or if that's just a part of it, I do think he's somewhat asexual. While most of us are ace just because we're ace, there are some people who are ace due to past trauma and I've imagined Kaz falls in that category. To me, subtly in the books but definitely in the show, Inej desires a sexual relationship and she's well aware that Kaz doesn't want that. Her hallucination, which I see so many Kanej fans gif'ing and fangiring over, would never happen at this point in Kaz's life. Inej realizes it in the moment, and that's how she knows it isn't real. Tolya is literally using his Heartrender abilities to try to slow down the effects of the poison before succumbing to the horror of his hallucination, but it's Inej who snaps out of her hallucination first BECAUSE she knows what she's seeing is not possible. It's different from Jesper, who knows his hallucination isn't real since his mom is gone and yet still wants to stay in it, because Inej knows this could theoretically happen, but also knows that Kaz would never let it happen. She doesn't even let herself enjoy the hallucination the way Jesper did because it's something she doesn't think she can ever have with Kaz. There is a very real possibility that the show could ultimately decide (after some combination of the earlier scenarios in my list) that Tolnej doesn't work/doesn't happen AND then that Inej and Kaz will never have any sort of relationship either. They could all end up single or with other characters. Even at the end of Crooked Kingdom, the Kanej relationship is still somewhat ambiguous. They hold hands, she says she's not ready to give up on him, and he helped find her family, but they aren't explicitly in love. I wouldn't be surprised if the show goes the book route and leaves Kanej ambiguous yet hopeful at the end.

BONUS! Just because I think it'd be fun. Make Tolya canonically aromantic and just care deeply and platonically for Inej, but maybe he can still fulfill Inej's desire for a sexual relationship since he can be demi or greysexual or even asexual with a libido. Kaz may never fully stop being touch averse, which is perfectly fine, and he and Inej connect romantically with a fulfilling life of love. And then Kaz and Tolya get to bond deeply platonically over their mutual love for life's beauty (poetry and Inej). Make them some sort of triad that mixes and fulfills everyone's romantic, sexual, and platonic needs. It's a win-win-win for all three. It doesn't have to be a love triangle, Inej has two hands. Do I expect the show to go in this direction? No. Would I love to see it? Yes.

Obviously I'm exaggerating scenerio #1 on purpose. Because that exaggeration is what I imagine people to seem to think the show is leading to based on how intense their responses have been so far. I also tried to address some other things I've seen people freaking out about when making the scenarios, like how Kaz will react to Tolya or worrying if Tolya being aroace will ever be acknowledged in the show.

What do I think is most likely to happen? Honestly, scenario #3 or #4. Maybe #6. That's why I'm not freaking out. Yes I ship Kanej, yes I think Tolya is aroace, but I also like the idea of them exploring Tolnej and I think either #3 or #4 would be fun to see. While the show strays from the books in a lot of ways, I don't think they'll stray from the final relationships by the end of it.

At the end of Ruin and Rising, Mal and Alina get to leave, get married, and live an ordinary life full of ordinary things. I LOVE the ending (apparently that's another controversial opinion I have about the Grishaverse) but that didn't happen in the show. Yet. The show has separated Mal and Alina so that Mal can figure out who he is without his tracking and so they can find out if they love each other for each other, or if it was just destiny that pulls them together. This is not in the book at all. And yet I love it. It can lead to strengthening their relationship since I trust the show will still end eventually with them together, hopefully with their ordinary ending. I think the show is doing the same thing with Kanej. The "I'll have you without your armor or not at all" conversation actually came towards the end of the duology, but the show moved it much earlier. I like that they did because this gives them something to build up from. Another reason I like scenarios #3 and #4 is because they still give Kaz the opportunity take what Inej said to heart and try to live without his armor. At the end of Crooked Kingdom, he takes off his glove and holds Inej's hand, but he is not at that point in the show yet. He will be eventually. And knowing that Inej might move on with Tolya can give him more reason to work to get to that point. I don't think the show is telling us Kanej will never happen, I think the possibility of Tolnej is the same as them separating Malina. I believe they will all come back together.

And if any of my listed scenarios do happen: THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN TOLYA'S SEXUALITY IS ERASED.

Sexuality in the Grishaverse is never defined. The fans can make inferences based on the relationships that Leigh gives her characters, but they don't define the characters' sexualities with labels in the books. This is because in the Grishaverse, labels as we know them don't seem to exist. You can kind of think of it in the way that we should treat LGBT+ people in history: we can give them labels of what we would consider them to be in our current era, but we'll never truly know what they would have labeled themselves because either they were closeted or there were just no labels for their sexualities at the time. And when they did have labels, they often called themselves things that many LGBT+ people would never use today. I look at the Grishaverse characters' sexualities in a similar way; they don't label themselves, and we can make assumptions based on the labels we would use, but they will never be explicitly canon unless Leigh puts it in the books.

For example, Hanne in Rule of Wolves (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THIS PARAGRAPH) Leigh uses "she/her" pronouns for them up until the last part of the book, and then Leigh is careful to NEVER use any pronouns for Hanne again. The fandom assumes Hanne identifies as a transman from that point on or maybe nonbinary, but we really don't know for sure yet because it happened so late in the book. The Grishaverse wiki uses "they/them" pronouns for Hanne precisely because we don't know what they prefer. All we know is that they always felt uncomfortable when they presented as a girl, and they enjoyed Tailoring themself to be more masculine. Maybe in future books we will get a definite answer as to whether they are a transman or nonbinary, but for now we technically don't know. But out of respect, the fandom has agreed to use they/them for Hanne. (RULE OF WOLVES SPOILERS ARE DONE)

So, if Tolya does have a relationship with Inej at some point in the show, whether or not it lasts, it doesn't erase the possibility of Tolya being on the asexual and/or aromantic spectrums. The show and books are never going to give him a definitive label. He could be demisexual/romantic and figure out after forming a bond with Inej that he has sexual or romantic feelings for her. Or he could be greysexual/romantic, which has a purposefully wide definition (rare specific circumstance that he desires having a relationship, weak attraction or difficulty telling it apart from platonic feelings, etc), and his experiences with Inej could fall into one of those categories. In these cases, we'd probably get a scene where he'd say something like "I've always thought I only needed my books and faith, but after getting to know you, Inej, I have never felt this way before and I don't think I'll ever feel this way again." This would still be representation for people who fall along the middle of the aroace spectrum, but not those at the furthest edge. If the relationship doesn't last and through it he realizes that he's sure that these are things he's not interested in, then that represents every aroace person who had to go through that before coming to terms with their sexuality. It's not erasure. Maybe it doesn't specifically represent YOU if you consider yourself aroace, but it definitely represents SOMEONE who does (I'd find it very relatable).

And all of this goes back to something I mentioned at the start: the show is not DONE. If it gets renewed, which it likely will, then there is more to see. To me, the people I see freaking out about the possibility of Tolnej, whether it's because they ship Kanej and don't want a triangle or because they don't want Tolya's sexuality to be "erased," are reacting the way you'd usually see people react if the show ended at this point. But it probably will not. And then when I see posts from the people who are thinking ahead, they seem to only be considering scenario #1 and not realizing there are a multitude of directions for the show to go in. It's not worth freaking out over. Plus, there's always the saying "don't like don't read," so if you find you really are disliking even the possibility that any scenario I listed could come true, you can just not watch the show and pretend it doesn't exist. The books are never changing. Even if the show changes everything, even if they have Alina end up with Jesper or Wylan end up with Nadia or Zoya marry a volcra or any other ridiculous outcome that utterly changes the show's canon, the book's canon will never change. You can always turn to the books if things don't ultimately turn out in a way you want them to.

Also, why am I seeing people complain that fans are writing fanfiction already about Tolnej? Why are you complaining about what other fans are doing that has zero affect on you? Fanfiction is not just for the canon ships. It's not even just for shipping in general, but it's definitely not reserved to the ships that are canon. You can write fanfiction for any ship you want to. Shipping wars have never truly made sense to me, but maybe that's because my first big online fandom was Glee and the ships were constantly changing and switching around so there was no point in putting too much effort into arguing because it may all change in the next episode anyway. Yes, we had lots of ship wars, but when people shipped the most random "crackships" possible then the appropriate response for most people was "wow, they really ship that, weird" and then to move on. Let people write fanfics. That's why AO3 exists. You can just write whatever you like. And yes of course a new crop of fans hate AO3, which is a whole other issue I cannot wrap my head around, but the point is to just let people write the fanfic they want to write and make the fanart they want to. Someone has already made a Tolnej fanvid on YouTube? Wow that's incredible since they did it so quickly! Malina on the moon AU? Cool throw in some sun and moon jokes! Do you think that Wylan and Hershaw would be best friends? Go for it, they'll probably blow everything up! The Darkling and Mal and Alina incest AU fic? Not my cup of tea but you do you and I just won't read it. People will write what they want to, and they aren't hurting anyone in the process, so if you don't want to see it then don't read it.

I see people complaining that shipping wars will begin to start after this fandom had been so peaceful for years. Honestly, the only reason there weren't shipping wars before this was because Six of Crows didn't have enough characters and possible ships to have a war over. Mixing with Shadow and Bone earlier in the timeline has opened up the possibilities. You know how to prevent shipping wars? Just don't fight with people who ship the things that you don't ship. Don't engage. If you see a Tolnej fanfiction, don't tell the author "Ew I hate Tolnej. You shouldn't have written this." just don't read it. Or if you do read it and still don't like it, then move on. If someone who ships Tolnej comes on a Kanej post and starts saying Tolnej is better, or vice versa, you can press the block button. Or you can just not respond to them. A shipping war doesn't start if you don't fight in it. There can just be people who ship Tolnej, people who ship Kanej, people who ship all 3 of them together, and everyone can just choose what they want to interact with and scroll past what they don't.

When it comes to Avatar: The Last Airbender, I am a gigantic Zutara shipper, and the Zutara vs Kataang ship war was infamously a bad one, but I just try not to engage in it. I know my ship isn't canon. Sure, I'll complain that it's not canon, maybe say "Oh in this scene they were so in love" and think about what could have been, but then I just go read Zutara fanfics. If you don't want to see shipping wars, don't participate. Ignore it. Move on.

But you know what? I think I know what the ultimate source of this is, or at least one of the sources. I've been seeing similar uproars in the Stranger Things and Umbrella Academy fandoms this year. Both are fandoms that also tend to skew younger than myself. I think fans, especially younger fans, are now reacting in these intense ways as a defense mechanism because so many shows get cancelled early. They're preparing in advance for this to be the last of whatever media they love, they're preparing for this to be canon forever, and they aren't happy.

Using Stranger Things as my example, I saw it happen when people were mad that Will didn't come out as gay at the end of Season 4 and that Mike didn't fall in love with him. I get that you guys ship them, and I love Will and want him to be happy, but just because it didn't happen in Season 4 doesn't mean it's not going to happen. First of all, Will is a 14 year old kid in the 1986 from a small town in Indiana that can barely handle Dungeons and Dragons and he's already been bullied at school for possibly being gay, coming out is not as easy as it is today. Reagan only just acknowledged AIDS one year earlier. Even Robyn hasn't come out to anyone but Steve. If they had thrown in Will coming out amongst the chaos of Elle fighting Vecna and trying to save Max, I know people would complain that it got shoehorned in as an afterthought. And because it didn't happen at all, people are complaining about that too. I know people will always complain about something, but I'm sure that fewer fans would complain if they didn't have the fear of cancellation instilled in them. Sure, Stranger Things would never get cancelled before finishing the planned story, but these fans are just used to feeling that the end of each season of every show could possibly be The End, and then complain about the loose ends accordingly.

That's what I think I'm seeing from the people who are upset about the possibility of Tolya and Inej being together. The show will probably be renewed, but it's not guaranteed. If it were to end right now, then yeah, fans who only watch the show would assume Inej and Kaz will never be together, that Tolya is interested Inej, and they'd have no idea that he's implied to be aroace in the books. But here's the thing: if you read the books, you know none of this is true. In the books, Tolya is aroace representation. In the books, Kaz and Inej are implied to have a romantic future. Why does it matter to you and your life if some people who watch the show don't know about the parts of the books that haven't happened yet? The fans who are mad about this change are all book fans because we're the ones who know it's a change. If we don't like the change, we can always choose to only acknowledge the books. The books can't be cancelled. The books are not going to change. Even if the show goes in directions you don't like, you can always take solace in the books.

Also, I see way too many people complaining about Tolya and Inej who have only read SoC/CK but not any of the books that Tolya actually appears in.

I'm nearly done. I wanted to address the aroace fans who are sad because they saw themselves in Tolya and now feel he doesn't represent them. I'm sorry that a character you connected to doesn't touch you the same way in the show as they did in the book. But you can't say Tolya isn't aroace representation in the show, at least not yet. At this point, he doesn't represent YOU and you definitely deserve representation, but he does represent SOMEONE. And hopefully he will continue to represent someone. So many aroace people had relationships with people they cared about and thought they felt romantic or sexual love for, before they eventually realized they were aroace. If this ends up as Tolya's story, then that rings true to SO MANY people. As I keep repeating, the show is not over, this could be leading to one of the scenarios where Tolya figures out that he is aroace through pursuing a relationship with Inej. He could already be demi or grey and it just hasn't come up in the show yet, but meeting Inej is one of the few times in his life that he does feel romantic and/or sexual attraction. Or, the look he gave her was just platonic and he's excited to have her aboard the Volkvolny.

We don't know for sure. It's better to just let the show's story unfold and remember that you will always have the books you love, rather than waste energy worrying about where the show is heading.

So yeah. I love Tolya. I love the idea of Tolnej. I love any plot point that can put more Tolya on my screen. I am greyromantic and demi/grey/flux/asexual/whatever and I personally like where they're taking his character and I want to see what it leads to. I hope it ultimately leads to him staying on the asexual and aromantic spectrums, but we don't know for sure right now. We just need to wait and see.

Also, don't tag any hate posts for the ship in the Tolya Yul-Bataar, Tolnej, Tolya x Inej, and Inej x Tolya tags. That's just fandom etiquette 101.

.......................

tl;dr:

1) The show isn't done yet and we don't know where it's heading. 2) The show can be heading in a bunch of different directions, including keeping Tolya as aroace and having Kanej be canon. 3) Asexuality and aromanticism are spectrums and umbrella terms, so Tolya could be with Inej and still be considered aroace. 4) This isn't erasing aroace representation because there will still be aroace people who will feel represented by him. 5) The books are not going away so if worst comes to worst, he'll still always be aroace representation in the books.

#tolya yul bataar #grishaverse #shadow and bone #inej ghafa #sab spoilers #shadow and bone spoilers #anyway if you're gonna try to argue with me then at least read the whole thing first #i try to anticipate things people will ask about or argue against when i write stuff like this. so at least read it if you wanna argue.#since i likely tried to touch on whatever point you wanted to make. if not then cool.#if you don't wanna read the whole thing and if even the tldr is too long for you then just don't try to argue #also my anon is off. it hasn't been turned on in years. so. yay.#my replies are also off unless i follow you or you've followed me for a week. but not because of this post.#it's because i had a racist call me the N-word over House of the Dragon. so. i got bigger things to worry about.#oh especially listen to that last point and don't tag any hate. notice i didn't tag this as kanej.#this isn't even kanej hate. this isn't remotely kanej hate. you can see from my SoC duology review post #i ship kanej. i like kanej. but i still didn't tag it. this will show up in searches because i said kanej throughout.#but it's not going to show up in the kanej tag. because i just don't want to open that can of worms.#anyway i spent like... 7 total hours writing this over the course of this afternoon and evening #when i get in the zone i get in the zone

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