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shopcat · 30 days

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there is, Obviously, fundamentally a difference between headcanon and an analytical reading of text, and treating the two as exactly the same is not only wrong but devalues both, but funnily, i've found people tend to forget that both of these things are the product of referencing our real life experiences and applying them where we see fit to make a more interesting way to interact with media. and you can't just like, forget that it's not JUST about headcanons and meta analysis and whatever, because people in real life also still matter. and in real life, there are different stakes and EXPERIENCES, and those experiences lead to thinking the way we do because that's how you Be a goddamn person, which is why it's ironic is all 😭

like, saying zuko atla has to be cis in order to be "properly" gay in order to be Truly Compelling narratively is fucking ridiculous. textually, zuko is not actually gay. he never was intended to be, he never will be intended to be, he was never even subtextually. the assumption otherwise is already rooted in fantasy, and the tongue in cheek assertion that it isn't, which means it has more credence, is ... dumb? childish? admitting to at least yourself that the things you talk about wrt character analysis aren't the intention of the creator is literally half the point of doing said analysis – you're MEANT to throw away the intended interpretation in order to give it a new life through different keyholes without entirely divorcing itself from the text. (in the same breath, insisting the creator truly meant One Thing when they absolutely would not have/don't care at all, and ignoring that the people who made the piece are going to put their own biases and experiences and background into the media itself and actually MUST be taken into account for things like this is just ... well. Stop That.)

i've personally never been someone to ever claim that The Writers All Along INTENDED to do something that they obviously didn't, like make a character from a 2005 cartoon lgbt+. this doesn't mean that reading doesn't have any substance or cannot possibly hold any meaning, or that it's wrong. if you can't be objective about your own readings what's the damn point... leaning into it being fiction, which changes just by being observed by a different person, is why it's fun or interesting to do in the first place. and yeah there are some basic cookie cutter headcanons people like to fling around, and there can be criticism for that otherwise, but claiming headcanons themselves AREN'T an offshoot of this way of thinking is fucking stupid. like it's plain wrong.

our own thoughts on why a character acts, what they do, what their presentation is, why their personality is what it is up to and including their sexuality, gender identity, religion, JOB, whatever, are made to fill the gaps the text can't or won't provide, and in the case of lgbt ones as long as it's not actively harmful (as in like insisting a lesbian character is bi or something) it is literally harmless seeing as it is fairly solidly a "won't", along with a whole bunch of other hc material that usually don't see the light of day on-screen nonstereotypically. people seeing themselves in characters isn't new but more than that, saying that you know this but then pushing it aside because The Analysis Means More when it's Realistic And Plausible is fucking dumb. and rude. bc the entire point of drawing the line of connections this way is how WE see them. being all like "oh well, your own personal identity is still valid otherwise, don't get your feelings hurt bc it doesn't matter," is moot if you've already asserted there's only One real way to be... plausible 🤨. which is to be NORMAL ! duh.

like, the read that zuko IS gay (and cis) relies on extracting parts through the lens of our own gay perceptions and is why cishet fans don't pick up on it, but you can ask pretty much any other lgbt fan and they'll agree. zuko's narrative arc IS compelling with the read that he is gay, from the way he is ostracised by his family, neglected and abused, the "punishment" he receives and then continues to become his own warden of, the order of his death and the banishment itself, sozin criminalising homosexuality, his inability to connect with others especially his own age, his inability to seamlessly interact with girls, his literal externalised viewing of seeing himself as someone with Two Sides, them being good vs evil, realising he can change the damn world through love and acceptance, striving for peace, being the face of change for his nation, relearning what it means to be who he is once he is free from his past, the shame and humiliation rituals, the claim of his father that he is worthless as a prince and person, AND MORE... and i cannot express enough here how fucking little it matters if he's specifically gay or WHAT THE HELL EVER 😭.

to claim in no small way that it's impossible for a trans person, or a bisexual person, or anyone else lgbt, could ever line up his narrative with their own personal one is so beyond ridiculous it gives me a headache. no, "plausibly", i don't think zuko is like, transmasc. yes, plausibly, he could be gay. plausibly, he could be amab nonbinary but no one seems to actually give a fuck about that for some reason (i wonder!). nothing would change in both cases, because he's not actually either, so i really don't see the point in making fun of or being frustrated by one to lift up the other because you want cisgender boot soles to brush the back of your throat THAT badly. the implausibility of thinking any way about a fictional character should be taken into account to an extent, sure, but at the end of the day neither of us are doing anything truly worthwhile, and no one is claiming that it's the intent from the beginning to say otherwise, so what's the point here. why are we doing this. let's go skip in a meadow together before i kill someone with this rock.

#🐾#tldr i am actually just so sick of people saying the word plausible #it's not plausible for this character to be trans. well OKAY. THARS NOT THE FUCKING POINT IDIOT #not every fucking thing people do is for the sake of furthering the fucking plot holy shit what is wrong with you #these people will never know joy or happiness and forever be miserable bc they're just OBSESSED with trying to rationalise.. art?!#LIKE ITS NOT GONNA HAPPENNNN 😭#even if it is a plausible trans read people will pick it apart. I Know. i've been there. people do not and i hate to break it to you #like trans people. even other trans people. SHOCK HORROR. jesus christ #this is a real torture dungeon of my own creation #also my two cents personally i think the sum of who zuko is as a person is first and foremost autistic and gay. and everything else is as #an abuse victim. and i honestly don't care if he's trans bc it doesn't matter in the way ppl need to be tantruming over #but it still would be just as significant if not more so. acruallg definitely more so what the hell. my family doesn't hate me bc i Like #Boys .. OR GIRLS.#and YEAH sokka does read more trans sure. but he also is the one who got made fun of for at least like matching his belt and bag #or liking shopping or being feminine ..#is this what people mean when they say that... that katara would be transphobic to her own brother 😭#well probably not. anyway.#if we're being textual sokka literally IS the one with some sort of gay subtext just FOR being the victim of the charming 2000s lightly #homophobic joking. not zuko. no one gives af about zuko #it does not break my arm to say zuko got banished for being too much sowmrbing and not enough something and got to be himself afterwards #in the slow journey that that took. this could mean literlalt anything. so who cares #he's lgbt all at once. There. bitch #also these ppl bc it was a whole bunch ofc. seemed to just mostly be mad bc zuko got the hc more #like how is that everyone else's problem now. just make sokka trans more ... idiot #☆

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perelka-l · 7 months

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Hi, I’m the person who asked about Ghetsis and the paradox of his attitude towards N’s ability half a year ago. I’m very very sorry for taking so inappropriately long to answer, had a lot going on.

I gravitate towards the theory that N and Ghetsis might be distant relatives with a common ancestor, which would explain a lot of things, from physical similarities to the denial of fatherhood. They could have any other type of blood connection besides that of a parent a child - after all, royal family trees tend to be huge and messy. I think N comes from the direct lineage (which grants him special powers), while Ghetsis might be from an offshoot of the original family. In other words, the former is the legitimate successor of the king and has more rights to the throne. He’s also closer to their progenitor personality-wise.

(There are a couple of more reasons why I don’t think Ghet is N’s bio father. Taking into account the stigma surrounding adoption in Japan makes me wonder if there was an out-of-universe cause for portraying Lusamine more positively that Ghetsis. That is not to say the green satan should’ve been redeemed; imao both characters deserve to rot in hell. I just suspect that the writers only let Lusamine (and not the other villain) off the hook due to her being a biological parent. And speaking of parents... this one’s purely subjective, but I find it hard to envision Ghetsis in a stable, serious long-term relationship leading to pregnancy. Taking an orphan under your wing for evil purposes is one thing, but living with a s/o and having them bear your child is another. I don’t believe a “one-night stand gone wrong” scenario is plausible and fitting for his personality either).

As for the paradox, I’ve come up with three possible explanations.

1. Ghetsis got overwhelmed by plain old envy. Taking his royal origins very seriously, he brought together the sages, worked on searching the ruins, and adhered to a certain image. And then there was N, who simply happened to be born with the king’s abilities and in the right lineage, which automatically made him the true heir. Of course, this wouldn’t really matter to normal people, since Unova is no longer a monarchy and there’s no need for heirs, but it’s Ghetsis we’re talking about. All of his insults towards N could stem from jealousy and a sense of rivalry. I suppose observing how his adopted son just managed to resemble King Harmonia naturally (no pun intended) must’ve unnerved Ghetsis a lot. Oh, and their physical similarities could’ve added insult to injury, constantly reminding him that they share some dna, but N is still a more worthy descendant.

2. Ghetsis indulged in cherry-picking. Despite cherishing his legacy, he had his own weird ideas about ruling and disregarded some of the king’s tenets anyway (“Do not be barbaric”, “Think, act with love”, “Wars create tears”). Perhaps Ghet did consider the monarch freaky for the special ability but acknowledged his achievements nonetheless.

3. Double standards were at fault. He could excuse a great king talking to Pokemon but drew the line at some odd forest kid who fails to understand even humans doing the same thing.

TL;DR: 1) Ghetsis didn’t consider the ability inherently despicable, it’s just that he gave vent to envy and blind rage whenever his ward was concerned.

2) He viewed the trait as freakish indeed but avoided internal dissonance by focusing on historical facts he deemed favourable and downplaying/ignoring everything else.

3) It’s selective morality and mental gymnastics all the way down. He didn’t mind cutting the king some slack yet refused to extend the same courtesy to N.

Since I’m drawing on the assumption that the characters come from different branches of difference significance, I’m inclined to think Ghetsis cannot talk to Pokémon after all. Besides, if he could, he would’ve had a much easier time achieving his goals in BW.

By the way, I can’t stop thinking about just how much Ghetsis lost by pushing N away. He rejected not only his son but also an invaluable potential ally - an ally who could’ve aided greatly in his research. Teaming up with a genius who’s personally invested in exploring the ruins (who would’ve been invested had he known about his lineage, I mean) and possesses unique powers is a perfect scenario one could only dream of. Nevertheless, Ghetsis decidedly gave up that opportunity and let pride (perhaps along with envy) outweigh all other feelings, thoughts, and aspirations. In the end, pride managed to win over his interest in the heritage and over his reverence. That, in my opinion, is one of the greatest undoings of King Harmonia’s descendant. He chose to ruin his own life, to brutally sever ties with the only person in the world who genuinely loved him and who shared blood and legacy with him. You once wrote that Ghetsis holds answers to 90% of BW’s mysteries; well, the number could be brought to 100% if only he wasn’t an utter bastard.

Gosh, it has been months since this one arrived at my askbox and I just thought I would cook the answer over time and it never happened. Apologies for that. The time has come. Finally, guh!! So fret not anon, the pain of taking shitton of time to reply is mutual. So I think it's OK.

I also think about the common ancestor between those two, but more in an annoyed, grumbly manner of "fine, if it's not direct relation I will take anything". And indeed that could be a more canon-supported way of connecting those two, precisely for arguments you are mentioning.

(As a side note, though, in Pokemas Ghetsis says that they are not bound by blood. In same sentence calling him his son. Ngl I love the way Ghetsis riffs off on family ties to try and manipulate and/or hurt N. Amazing.)

But I would wonder about legitimacy - we kinda do know Ghetsis feels entitled to the crown and I don't think there is more to that than just hunger for power and N being the King of Plasma is entirely Ghetsis' idea...

(In a way, it's something that could not even hinge on N because, uh, USUM: in which Ghetsis planned to do exactly the same shit he pulled off in his universe (in which he already took over and succeeded in his plans) but with Giovanni of all people. But then, in that case Ghetsis doesn't have to add the element of being chosen by Zekrom/Reshiram, so maybe it's just a repeat run with no reasoning but pieces aligning.)

But my point is - Ghetsis' idea of him being the one deserving the power he craves doesn't come purely from his own hunger, I think. But then, he couldn't become the chosen hero. If he could, it would make things much more simple for him and wouldn't bother with finding/arranging N. Which is... something I can't help but wonder about, what would N be if Ghetsis wasn't here.

I don't know about stigma of adoption in JP, could you elaborate?

And yeah, admittedly I am also a bit disappointed about Lusa being protrayed with significant backpedal to her evil - even despite SM compounding that ultimately she wasn't entirely in control of her own actions. I also think that what you say now is also what happened in B2W2 - the blood relation between N and Ghetsis wasn't elaborated upon, being more left vaguely in the air in BW while it was B2W2 that compounded the lack of relation. Which is... sad, really. And not the only thing I am :/ about in terms of things spoken out loud and simplified in B2W2 that in BW were implied or left unsaid (shadow triad theory my beloved ;;;A;;; )

I entirely agree about points with Ghetsis not being able to sustain any relationship (c'mon, it's Ghetsis.) (on that note I always remember that one fantastic kinkmeme fic about Ghetsis being actually woman dressed as a man and getting her child from Alder by manipulation, 10/fucking 10, but I am carried away over here) and I think one night stands would be entirely beneath him. But I think there is no need to consider, shall we say, normal ways of prgnancy and if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if Ghetsis tried to go for less moral means, starting with manipulation and ending with force.

I did now write a bit about 1. (look, I am replying as I read and think OK, I am not good with structured writing stuff) but in a way I think it's important that symbolism carries weight in Pokemon World while history is in a way pushed aside or bestowed upon small group of individuals as lore or hidden knowledge that does ultimately carry great power. I always wonder what happened first - did Ghetsis reach out to the lore and hidden knowledge because of his own background and that inspired him to try and reach for power? Or did he reach for it in his search for power?? Just another mystery.

(which, hilariously, N wondered about in Pokemas either: Sometimes I wonder what his... What Ghetsis's past was like. I don't know anything about his parents or his childhood... I wonder if I ever will." Man, those lines made me froth at mouth a bit ngl)

You mentioning physical similarities is one thing I adore to ponder about with those two, but when you throw the theory that Ghetsis due to his Harmonia lineage can understand Pokemon speaking... and considering how he treats that ability in N, there could be some repressed rage at himself, and that would only add fuel to injury to seeing the way N reaches what he cannot. (Which kinda breaks the point number 3 for me wwwww Ghetsis is a bit of a hateful individual)... My point is: yeah, he hates that and surpresses that. He could have used that to his own goals, but I don't think he would even admit that he can do such a monstrous thing.

Re: 2, I wonder if he misinterpreted / chose to misinterpret the tenets less as what to do and more as what to portray. To be fair, Ghetsis can be perfectly charming and polite (kind, if you ask him, but ahah, yeah, right) and maybe he used those rules as tips and tricks how to manipulate the masses.

Ghetsis indeed fucked up royally (lol) by revealing his cards too soon (in Pokemas as well, really, he could have carried on that act of disgraced and regretful father for so much longer). But then, I am a little not surprised he did, in BW. He did spend a good few years playing someone he is not and the moment he could throw away the mask was surely a relief, and he believed so deeply he'd succeeded that he didn't think of keeping it on his face for just a tiny bit more, as a failsafe. Indeed, he could do so much more, but he detested N too deeply and believed in how own capabilities too much. Pride and hatred and indeed, envy, no matter which angle we use to look at it.

Ultimately, that's why he is a villain and why he lost, not even once but twice.

#ghetsis #listen to my voice #answers #anon #anonymous #7 months jfc i am ashamed i am sorry ;;A;;#i tried my best tostructure this thing and i hope it's more or less coherent hhh #but yeah that last point made me think that like #we kinda perceive where n and ghetsis came from and what truly is behind them in different ways but no matter how you look at it #ghetsis is deeply flawed and evil and greedy and green satan 10/10 love him #but also when pokemas dropped that line of n pondering where ghetsis came from i felt SEEN #like whoa holy shit #pokemas tho has varying levels of canonicity so take that as you will #also i never before realized that usum pulled off same shit as b2w2 and i am not sure what to think about it #like not 1:1 same but like.#tho tbf as i played through usum i felt a bit relieved i don't have to deal with lusa bc mmmmmmm yeah i love her but jesus christ #but like narratively??? idk??????????????????#anyway yeah gods i am rambling #Long post #I hope I didn't repeat points I already used fhfhjfhfhf

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