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army-of-mai-lovers · 3 years

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Hi, Ace Toph hc anon here! I totally agree people should be able to hc characters however they choose! Hc Toph as an aroace lesbian, ace, and a demiro lesbian are really great hcs and completely valid. I think it’s kind of comparable to ppl writing Bolin and Asami as cis in fan works. It’s like woah I forgot that ppl think of character as ‘xyz’ haha. Your wording is great and I get the point you’re conveying! I apologize for the long text I went on a rant too lol.

The biphobia in this fandom sometimes. I swear it’s palpable on so many different levels. My friend (a lesbian) paints Asami and Korra as lesbians and honestly I don’t get it. They’re both attracted to men AND women? Again people can have their hc’s but it’s really hurtful to erase bi representation in media. Like a while back she identified as bisexual and I thought she would understand that making/ enjoying jokes like “lol Mako turns all of his exes lesbian” to be super biphobic and not very funny. Or when people say they ship Wuko bc Mako deserves to suffer. Can we stop using the reason people/characters are lgbtq+ bc men have done them wrong in relationships or deserve “dealing with someone just as bad.”

Also 100% my hc is Zuko being bi you’re not alone! While they’re not my otp I definitely think he had genuine (romantic) feelings for Mai and other women he dated. But again that’s up for a person to speculate as comphet or not. The problem, like you said, definitely arises when there’s a double standard for people being adamant about hc men as gay and hesitant/against women as lesbians. I get when people say it’s somewhat stereotypical for Toph to be a lesbian but there ARE women that identify as lesbian that fit being tough, strong, and ngc. Like she fits the sort of aro/ace, butch vibe. AND THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I’m tired of people acting like being butch is something negative! Ngc lesbians should be able to be hc in the fandom. You know what I redact my earlier statement on hc Toph as just ace. I definitely see Toph being an aro, aroace, or a demiro lesbian 😤😤😤!

People can hc what they want but don’t hold double standards. It’s funny how like you said ppl hc Wu and Zuko as 1000% gay (imo bc of stereotypical actions/characteristics). But turn around and say that others shouldn’t hc characters as lesbians bc of stereotypes and characteristics/point out canonical events disproving the hc of said lesbian character.

Pls tell me if I got misunderstood or interpreted what you said in an inaccurate way. Thank you for discussing! Also I’m sorry this is so long!!! I enjoy your content so thank you for your opinion on this topic :D

oh anon this is so thoughtful thank you so much! you understood EXACTLY what I was saying and I’m so glad bc I was honestly a little afraid to say it. the analogy to people writing Bolin and Asami as cis is a great one, I get so into my own hcs that I forget sometimes that people don’t have the same one that I do.

OH MY FUCKING GOSH THE BIPHOBIA IN THIS FANDOM. I HATE IT SO MUCH. I am not bisexual myself but I have friends who are and just in general seeing someone else be shit on for the way they identify pisses me off. Honestly, the Korra and Asami situation is one of the few where I do think “having your own hcs” is harmful, just because bisexual representation (esp bisexual representation of women of color) is so rare and I do think it’s erasure to interpret them as not having been genuinely attracted to Mako. Further, I agree the joke of “Mako turned Korra and Asami into lesbians” is super not funny, in part bc I am a Mako stan but also bc lesbians have had a history of our attraction being attributed to trauma or bad relationships w men and that is a trope I would rather not contribute to!

and yes bi Zuko!!!!! I def agree that he had genuine, romantic feelings for Mai (now, whether she had genuine, romantic feelings for him is a whole nother question). and yes I don’t understand the issue with hcing her as a lesbian? I mean I guess if your only lesbian hcs are Toph and Azula I would maybe encourage you to question your thought process, but the people I’ve largely seen make lesbian hcs about Toph or Azula also have them for other female atla characters (for my part, I also hc Mai and Ty Lee as lesbians). and people acting as if being a butch lesbian is a negative thing is SUCH AN ISSUE, not just in this fandom but in all kinds of spaces!!! being a butch lesbian is a wonderful thing to be!!! I hope all the butch lesbians reading this are having a wonderful day!!!

and yeah it’s,,,,,interesting. for the record, I def also hc Wu as gay, but I find it so interesting that it’s a problem for people to hc Toph as a lesbian because it’s “stereotypical” but it’s fine for people to hc Wu as gay??? like honestly I just want people to be consistent but they never are.

and omg thank you so much for sending me this ask!!!! this was a lovely discussion!

#anons #replies #swearing tw #caps tw #biphobia #lesbophobia #fandom crit #ask to tag

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flyingcatstiel · 3 years

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1of2 Tired of metas blaming executives / defending writers. Writers can write horrible endings. Proof - GOT, HIMYM, Lost etc. Executives didn't force those bad endings. Reading all these conspiracy theories feels like I am listening to Trump. Executives are homophobic but ok with incestous ending? I asked my SO (who never watched SPN) to watch SPN final with me. I quote him "didn't you say they are brothers. It almost looks like they are going to kiss - Ewww - is this what you want me to watch?"

2of2 Even if we look at bottom line - Executives - apparently don't care the fact that Destiel was trending FIRST world wide - in middle of pandemic, middle of historic US elections - such free publicity to gain more viewers and money - but they care about incestous endings which grossed out lot of people. I wish these metas and conspiracy theorists stop baiting people and stop defending writers. Even before covid - Dabb had intended for this bad ending with proof that only 30% will like it.

Oh, nonnie. If you have sent this just 2 days ago, I’d be there with you, all salty about metas defending writers. Today tho, after going through some serious posts about the CW involvement with the show, about Russian market, about professional dubbing practices I have my thoughts in different order.

So, from what I’ve seen so far (barely past midnight November 26 in the US as of writing this). Jensen went to re record audio stuff for 15x18, most likely Cas confession scene. Now we have info from Latin America (2 separate dubs) that Dean actually reciprocated Cas’s love declaration and only after that The Empty took Cas. Nonnie, this changes everything. The first thing so many viewers noticed and commented on was the weird way the scene was cut and how little emotions Dean showed. The running gag on twitter was that Jensen is homophobic and Misha strong-armed him into that scene. Non shipper said that it was platonic love declaration from Cas, coming out of nowhere. But most importantly, we, shippers were robbed from proper celebration of our ship going canon. After 12 years of sticking with the ship, they still took it from us. This is totally on the CW shoulders.

But also, this means that destiel was at some point greenlit by the executives to be reciprocated in canon. Until someone at the CW backpaddled in late September. The writers are not responsible for this, they are victims of these changes as well. Dean’s answer changes the emotional beats of several scenes in 15x19 in addition to the scenes that were cut. 15x19 has that strange montage at the very end which most likely was added to cover cut scenes, say like Lucifer, Jack and Cas scene in the empty? Because if Misha was in 15x19, that would mean that the prank call was never meant to be his last contribution. I mean, the disrespect to the fans, the writers and Misha, all in one episode.

And then there’s 15x20 which looks so weird that a lot of fans immediately said that it is a butchered episode. Thing is, we have no idea what kind of script was written pre covid, how much it was changed and when, and how much was cut out from filmed episode. I’ve seen posts sayin that the script for 15x20 was still in rewrites when they finished filming for 15x18. Which is very, very late for a shooting script. I personally think that Dean’s death was the thing Jensen disliked so much, but even then - we don’t know how it was framed in earlier scripts and how they arrived at that horrific scene in 15x20.

I’m not saying that SPN writers are the most amazing TV writers out there, and I look forward times when we will be able to discuss all problematic stuff SPN is filled to the brim with, but. We just don’t know what exactly happened in the SPN writing room and how much executives meddled with it. COVID happened. Nothing of this is normal. This is why the most important thing right now is to pressure the CW for some answers. Look at them throwing Misha under the bus today. That tells you bunches how well they know fandom and how to manipulate us.

Now about that incestuous scene, aka Dean’s death, and why homophobic executives would be OK with it but not canon destiel. Under the cut we go, mostly for space reasons.

Ok, this is so funny but I actually just finished writing my second answer about wincest in 15x20 and had problems posting it and that’s how I learned that we broke tumblr and destiel went canon in spanish. Here’s my post, check it out bc I’m not repeating it here.

I think wincest, aka incest between two able bodied, adult male brothers is something casual viewer outside the fandom is not even thinking about. If it was sister/brother deal with intimate embrace, people would notice faster. But two masculine, 6 ft tall macho dudes during the death scene? Nope. Here comes plausible deniability which viewers also use to ignore anything “funny” between Dean and Cas. I’m glad that you and your partner noticed incest vibes, but, I’ve see plenty people even in destiel fandom being fine with such scenes between Sam and Dean. I’ve seen some destiel fans saying that they really loved 15x20, so, there are viewers out there for whom it worked.

Now let’s look at the bottom line. TBH, I’ve no idea where to look? Where is the projected revenues for a show that is ending? You say that Destiel trending during pandemic is a proof that our fandom is huge, but. No one knew that we had such power! And trending on twitter is not something that translates into money easily. And it happened 2 weeks before finale. There’s no time to change finale anymore. I personally think that destiel fandom has been shrinking for past couple of years, since so many folks left due to bad writing and queerbaiting. But they came back for tweeting. At this point destiel is bigger than it’s fandom. I personally think that the CW would have benefited from canon destiel, but they made different call.

I agree with you that in general, fandom should not defend the writers so much and ought to be more critical about the stuff they write, but today, November 26, 2020, the game is happening on completely different plane. I’m pretty sure that we got a butchered finale, and I’m very much inclined to believe that it is somehow connected to their efforts to promote The Walker show. Maybe Dabb’s original finale was really bad, but show me the script then. If destiel was supposed to be reciprocated, then they might have gone overboard with bro love in Dean’s death scene. Only now, when destiel was one-sided, that scene becomes very wincesty seemingly on purpose. A good creative writing, in it’s finished form, is a very tightly woven fabric. You pull out some threads, you unravel whole fabric. And that’s what 15x20 is.

2 days ago I’d be roasting metas who defend spn writers, today I want to storm the CW. (pitchforks anyone?) Destiel shippers were robbed, queer love story was censored, this should be the focus of or anger today, not the writers or actors. We can do both - demand truth about the Cas confession scene and roast original Dabb’s ending if we ever get it.

ETA - after writing this up, I checked out some posts by blogs who debunk all conspiracies, including Spanish dub. They sound very convincing! But in that case we have to talk about long term queerbaiting that was taking place on this old CW show till the very last minute. Cas was used in promos for 15x17 he was not in. They (ppl who make promos) deliberately used Cas barn scene from 4x01 in those promos, then actual barn in 15x20 promo but somehow it is shippers who are delusional? Don’t start me on Song of the day. Angel with a shotgun for 15x19? What was that about? After 15x18 there was no official goodbye to Cas which made ppl to watch finale. Like? Even if the Spanish dub gets officially debunked by the CW and not some random blogs, we are left with the fact that destiel fandom was gaslighted during the last stretch of s15. And not only by writers.

And if this was the finale they so lovingly crafted and deemed to be good, where are the celebration of the SPN ending? Why we had to watch documentary before the episode? Why 15x20 was so short? Why Canada watched the episode first (and leaked spoilers online) They filmed after quarantine, the script had to be the usual length. And so on, fandom has been through all the things that didn’t match several times already. PITCHFORKS -> the CW

#anons #flyingcatstiel has thoughts #spn finale is a gift that keeps on giving #15x18 #15x20 #andrew dabb #te amo #wincest for ts #///#i'm putting this in the queue #and I'll try to reblog more stuff re this issue #scroll down and read my tags #destielgate #PITCHFORKS

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