I just saw a take on zosan that was awful enough I had to block the person. They labelled their post "hot takes" and it annoyed me enough that I felt like hating on it from afar in a vague way would be less destructive than writing an entire essay in this person's comments section.
If you like treating Sanji like a babygirl - just say so. Nothing wrong with that. Don't act like uke-ifying him is accurate to his canon characterization though. If you don't like Zoro as a character, just SAY THAT. Don't act like your shitty understanding of him as a character should be common sense. Their premise was that zosan would work best as a non sexual relationship - sure I'm fine with that. Sounds like an interesting premise. Why tho?
The reasons were stupid.
1. Apparently bc Zoro is too much of a neanderthal and BC he doesn't shower frequently Sanji would never touch him blah blah (Sanji smokes ten million cigarettes a day, I assure you he doesn't smell good) y'all should stop treating him like a babygirl bc bleh Zoro stinky and likes drinking and where did that whole he's Nami's gay best friend thing come from, he isn't that, he doesn't deserve it. Okay??? First of all - last I checked babygirl didn't require certain qualifications - so fuck off? I've concluded that Zoro is the only babygirl and you can foam at the mouth all you want, I'm not changing my mind. Second of all, did you forget that NAMI can drink people under the table too?? Zoro does canonically have a very friendship/sibling-like dynamic with Nami. They argue and fight, but they care about each other. If there is anyone who would make sense as a headcanon of one of Nami's close friends? Zoro would be a candidate. Usopp I would argue would be a better option, but Zoro also makes sense. Third of all, Sanji spends all day cooking (often cooking SEAFOOD) in a three piece suit and then smoking like a chimney. He may shower more frequently than Zoro but I assure you he doesn't smell like a rose garden either. You also can't be a cook if you shy away from a little elbow grease and sweat. Getting dirty for your craft is something he understands. He also has atrocious fashion sense when it comes to clothes that are not suits and he's a lil crazy in the same way all the strawhats are but he hides it well. Sanji is a ridiculous man and I like him that way. Stop it.
2. Sanji isn't some fainting flower, and it annoys me that this person was trying to paint him that way as if it's a forgone conclusion. Their argument was that he screams at bugs, and they were using it as an argument on why Sanji is apparently a babygirl who could never top anyone (why in the world does sex position even play a factor here??). They also pinpointed that Sanji wears suits and swoons at women as a reason why he's likely not gonna top anyone and is gonna remain a virgin. Admittedly I stopped reading at that point bc I made the executive decision to block the person for my own peace of mind, so I perhaps misunderstood (I barely understood the argument in the first place) but I still don't see how any of these factors have anything to do with sex position, or a sexual relationship not working with zosan. I'm all for asexual zosan. But y'all need to stop treating Sanji like some frail twink. That man is badass. He has a strong enough kick to kill a man, his leg catches on fire, he can fucking fly, he gives as good as he gets when it comes to his interactions with Zoro, he survived years and years of abuse from his family and came out a kindhearted person with principles. He is strong af. Again. STOP. IT.
3. None of those reasons for why they wouldn't have sex make sense to me because they operate under an assumption that Sanji would find Zoro gross so obvi they wouldn't have sex. The person fundamentally misunderstood that most people who like zosan aren't there bc they want smut, they're there because Zoro and Sanji are equal and opposites and they understand each other in a very fundamental way from the moment they met. Yes, their relationship is antagonistic, but in the way that Brogy and Dorry are set up in that one episode. If you understand that, then you get that when it comes to rivals, when it comes to their competition and their interactions with each other, Sanji wouldn't give a shit about avoiding getting his hands dirty. That is not the type of person he is. Zoro is his one exception in that sense. He has etiquette and acts like a refined gentleman, and then Zoro issues a challenge and Sanji is there, IMMEDIATELY ready and willing to throw down. He swoons over women, Zoro says anything and IMMEDIATELY Sanji's attention is all on Zoro. I have to wonder if this person even fucking watched the show before deciding to pass a bunch of unfounded judgements.
Alright, rant done.
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"there's no basis or case to be made for will having powers" okay then genuinely please explain any of the following now after watching season four:
why does the upside down look like hawkins and is presumably stuck on the day will arrived despite the fact that vecna was there first and has been residing there this whole time? if vecna was capable of reshaping the world, as he's stated he wants to do, why hasn't he done it in his own world? why is he so intent on seeking out the person for whom time apparently stopped if it's all just coincidence? if will didn't do that and he doesn't have powers, then why didn't time progress or the setting change once the teenagers got there? why was time only influenced by will and will alone if he has no powers whatsoever?
how was will able to call joyce multiple times? the only person we've seen so far be able to do something similar is eleven when she would channel what she heard through the radio. electricity doesn't work in the upside down, so how did will do that? why did it cause a shock and ruin the phone, the same way that the radio went up in flames when eleven did it, if he doesn't have powers?
how did he manage to wake joyce up at one point? (it could've been her imagination, but the show made it pretty clear that joyce had been right about everything the entire time even though everyone thought she was crazy, and will was wearing the same outfit but he looked and sounded distressed + exhausted like he may have been while hiding in his upside down version of the house.)
how was will able to see his mother and guide her with the lights to the place he was hiding?
how was will able to see the letters she wrote on the wall?
how was will able to light up the lights that fast and sometimes simultaneously? especially with the lights that were on the ceiling? the way he communicated with joyce isn't totally similar to the way the teens communicated with the party in season four. he's too short to reach the ceiling and he doesn't have elasti-arms or super speed, so he couldn't have been touching that many lights that fast all by himself with his own hands. if anything, it's more similar to the training exercise brenner had the lab kids do, because they didn't need to touch the lights (obviously) to control them. so, how do you explain that if he has no powers?
how did he acquire true sight before his possession? the doctors thought it was ptsd and all in his head, but just like with joyce, we come to learn that will had been right the entire time. the mind flayer was real and it was coming for them all and eventually it did. how did he know that? how could he have had such knowledge before it ever melded minds and bodies with him? no other powerless human could do that, so how do you explain it?
if will is truly a powerless human being, why did vecna hunt him down? we know that vecna stalks his prey before he strikes. we know that "the monster" followed will from mike's house all the way to the shed where they vanished without a trace. we then saw it stalk will again and eventually possess him. will said that vecna wanted to kill everyone else, but not him. why? we know that vecna doesn't care about people. so what did will have that he wanted so bad? what was it about will that made him more valuable to vecna—a self-perceived god among useless, pitiful, and brutish men—alive than dead? what was it about will, a supposed powerless and normal human boy, that made vecna want to spare him and use him? if he wanted access to the lab, weapons, or tools that could bring down entire nations and rendered millions around the globe defenseless to his attack, then he wouldn't have picked a sweet twelve year old boy who lives a tiny little life in a tiny little town who just wants to hang with his friends and play games. unless... he was the key to achieving his plans? but according to this argument that will is just a normal boy, why is it then that vecna did all of that if will isn't capable of anything?
additionally, we know that gates are opened with a psychic connection. when the psychic connection was made in that shed, will entered the upside down. there, he was hunted for a week. why did the demogorgons kill and eat everyone else, but never will? why did they only carry him to the library aka the source of it all? why didn't they treat him roughly or eat him like they did all of the others? will didn't suffer any serious damage from the upside down, so he couldn't have been "dead" for long when his parents found him. why was it different with him? why did he get special treatment even in hell if he's just a boy?
why does will still sense the creatures of the upside down even after he's been exorcised? how is it that the psychic connection is still there? how is he still able to know what vecna is feeling, the kind of state that he's in, and what it is that he's planned? how does he have this connection still even though he shouldn't if he's Just Some Guy?
if will was just a normal, powerless boy... then why did a self-proclaimed god try so hard to recruit him more than once? why did it hunt only him? why did this god want to kill everyone but him? why did this god deem him more worthy and useful in life and at his side than in death? why did it seek him out and not eleven, a girl who actually has powers, powers that were once stronger than his own even and that he clearly wanted as we saw in s3? why is the upside down stuck on the day will went missing, despite it clearly being inhabited by other creatures that we assume to be more powerful than him? why is will going to be central to season five, the season where it will all come to a close and we'll be learning about the upside down and more, if... he's Just Some Guy that had to brave it for a week and that's it? why did season four (and the show overall, but said outright and explicitly here in 4x09) reiterate that it has always been vecna and that will has always been his victim/in his sights/connected to him? why did vecna choose will byers, who some of you claim to be Just Some Boy, of literally all people on planet fucking earth to achieve his plans?
vecna stalked will. he hunted him. and when his plans were foiled, he tried again. when he couldn't do it his way, he sought to kill eleven so that he could absorb her powers (s3). and now, they're back in each other's heads. the silver cat fed when blue met yellow in the west, but they're back now and we've been told that this is only the beginning. if will is just another powerless human, then what is the point of any of that? how do you explain everything that we've seen? how do you explain the choices these characters have made and continue to make? how do you explain away the connection that they keep drawing our eyes to? the connection that shocked the duffers and made them ask jamie if he'd seen the scripts when he brought it up (that it all goes back to will, how everything and everyone is connected to will)? the connection that they themselves are saying we'll see clearly in season five?
that isn't even scratching the surface of all the obvious instances where they make it clear that will is vecna's narrative foil, because that would make this already gargantuan post thirty miles longer.
they wouldn't have done everything that they've done over the span of multiple seasons now if it was just for nothing.
it doesn't make sense if will is just some normal kid and a random fluke in the master plan. the writers could've had vecna pick anyone. they could have made it so that will's connection was severed or lessened, but they didn't. they could've admitted that will was just a meaningless casualty, but they didn't because he wasn't. it wasn't a random animal that took will, he wasn't possessed for shits and giggles, and he doesn't continue to have that psychic connection for no reason. they don't tell us that nothing is a coincidence and they don't have the characters themselves remind us that they need will just for it to be... nothing.
will knows what's coming, what's happening, and the condition of the person who will do it all. why have him experience all of that, and even be able to in the first place, if he's... powerless? how do you even explain the connection in the first place? no other character, not even the ones cursed by vecna, are able to do what he's done. how is that not considered a power? and how do you write off the hours of content that you've witnessed as nothing?
clearly, at some point you have to realize that something is going on, no? like, you don't even have to take my (one-too-many) word(s) for it. jamie and the duffers themselves have been saying it over and over again. so... honestly, what's not clicking?
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i'd like the rest of your opinion on jet if that's ok i like hearing peoples thoughts on him :)
SORRY i didn't see this okayyy hrm i can do that but i'll stick it under a cut. My rambles.
w the disclaimer that this really is just my opinion which means what my mind has scrambled up with without any prodding at it or outside interference (and i don't really read about or interact w content w jet and never really DID just as a btw) but basically: the way this show frames characters is very deliberate and going beyond the initial projection of who you're "meant" to see them as can be difficult sometimes (not just for this show, i mean in general wrt media analysis), esp when there's nothing else to like... cushion that.
for example iroh is obviously a fan favourite and i love him as a person who loves zuko (in both interps of that sentence), and their dynamic is really important (particularly + the standpoint of iroh being his brother's brother and what that means) but he was also you know, a revered general who lead a years long siege in support of the colonial regime...? this is kind of a mirror of what i'm getting at in that the show doesn't WANT you to or even feels the need to particularly dwell on that, even if his active hand in the war and then the subsequent movement to dismantle it firsthand is significant, because if people dwelt on it they... REALLY wouldn't like him as much on a much larger scale and he wouldn't be the same character anyways. i actually think it's a disservice to say the show doesn't at alllll address this bc i think it's obviously a huge part of who his character is next to zuko even though obviously the children's show is not going to be able to handle colonialism or genocide in a way that doesn't in some way feel flattened obv. anyway.
this is essentially why it took me such a while to warm up to jet even though he is a pretty cookie cutter "look beyond what you see" guy bc i couldn't really DO IT other than holding obviously a lot of sympathy for him and knowing he is deliberately presented as a certain kind of quote unquote extreme product of the fire nation's tyranny, much like hama is as another popular example, even if in real life it would actually be a pretty normal reaction and that hating your oppressors obviously doesn't make you evil. my autistic ass (SORRY) simply has to imagine a world where he can eventually go "i shouldn't have tried to kill an entire village of innocent people My bad" and it's easier to think about it wrt he is also you know, like 16? and obviously a victim. i've mentioned before i struggle with moral scrupulosity and what i consider to be "right" which does affect the things i like in context as well, and jet falls pretty squarely on morally pretty dark, esp in comparison to the other antagonists on the show, but that doesn't make him a villain obv. other than that the show itself presents him as an antagonist meant to cause conflict, and you're meant to sit with what it means to see people driven to such extremes bc they feel they have no choice, but you're not necessarily meant to like him i don't think, especially when you initially meet him. he really comes off as like a Cool Guy who's all charm who uses it to get his way which can feel kind of slimey i s'pose.
thinking about jet in regards to ZUKO is what helped me wrap my brain around him as a whole and soften to his like, harshness i guess bc i think they're good foils for each other. i think without making him necessarily fangless to do it that they're a really interesting duo and i honestly love that he came back to deliberately become an antagonistic figure to zuko as well (even that both "sides" just happened to meet him 😭 like what are actually the chances lol) and that prior to it they were working side by side even for a short time. i honestly wish the show was longer than it was bc i wish he hadn't figured out iroh was a firebender as quickly as he did, or at least hadn't assumed zuko was also one, bc i think it would've been really really interesting to see the behind the scenes conflict of them being friends and working together and jet forming some sort of relationship with zuko and iroh, and THEN finding out they're who he considers inherently immoral and an enemy even though he knows he and zuko are very similar/agree/he trusts them, and what that would mean for him. the initial "he'd just freak out and accuse them of betraying their trust and the same fight happens anyway" would be a natural conclusion but i can also see it NOT happening, bc while jet is an incredibly complex interesting character i think him coming to terms with certain things and shifting his mindset would have been fulfilling for ME at least.
i know that a character doesn't have to "redeem" themselves to be worthy and that moral pureness is not exclusive to being a Good Character and i like plenty of morally grey characters trust me etc etc but i just tend to want to... enjoy engaging characters who reflect my own values enough that it's justifiable WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the rest of whatever's going on in/the relationships of the other characters which is essentially why... he's fine and i like him but he's not my favourite. and what i mean by that is like as in, i love team avatar and i don't think they themselves would be friends with jet entirely as is, but if he was in another setting or situation or show or what the hell ever i honestly wouldn't care as much. i also think it's sort of strange to be like "ha ha you don't like the character who killed/wanted to kill kids" as if that's not like totally normal to be uncomfortable with 😭 anyway. other than all that i really like how he's a retro cool anime character transplanted into the show and i like his dumb mouth grass thing and i think he could've been a cool ally and wish they'd have leant more into his connection and closeness to the freedom fighters esp in ba sing se. i also think the angle that he's somehow kissed everyone in team avatar barring the littles is really fucking funny and they would gossip about him if it wasn't so like, tragic... also i don't think he died i think he can run real fast.
OH edit: one last thing i'll tack on to like the beginning of my own thought process re: the cushioning characters are afforded we see i think actually nothing of jets backstory other than what he says and nothing ELSE of his goal in life other than like, staying alive + keeping his fighters safe + what they stood for and fighting the fire nation. and while that's all like definitely plenty to establish his character it's why i couldn't come around to him as quickly bc i didn't really see the point when regardless of everything i've said i pretty much don't think he WOULD want to "redeem" himself or change as a character in any way and he's kind of just some guy to me so i didn't really want to put the effort in myself. i don't fault anyone who does ofc.
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