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esther-dot · 4 months

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Do you think Jon and Sansa will meet again at Castle Black, and from there, they will plan to take Winterfell? Or will Sansa take Winterfell on her own and reunite with Jon along the way? I’m of the idea of two lost souls who, when united, find the strength in each other to take the land of their family. But I don’t know, I haven’t finished the books yet so I need guidance on this.

I don’t consider myself an ASOIAF expert, anon so I don't offer guidance, but I will def share my thoughts with you!

In order to talk about this, I'm afraid there are some ADWD spoilers, though. If you mind that, maybe revisit this post after you've read it? Short version, I agree with you. Sansa should be involved in retaking Winterfell because we need a Stark there:

Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. (ADWD, Jon VII)

but I think the reunion happens first because of the The Girl in Grey theory. I'll explain more below the cut due to the major Jon spoiler.

In ADWD, a character named Melisandre tells Jon about a vision she has:

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander's Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon's heart leapt into his mouth. "Ygritte," he said. "Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's. Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. "You will freeze your fingers off," Jon warned. "If that is the will of R'hllor. Night's powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in god's holy fire." "You heart does not concern me. Just your hands."

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." "I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. "What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?" "Arya." His voice was hoarse. "My half-sister, truly …" "… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will." She gazed at Ghost. "May I touch your … wolf?" The thought made Jon uneasy. "Best not." "He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?" "Yes, but …" "Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so …" "… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. "Ghost," he called. "To me." The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger. Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's … queer." "You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it." I am not a wolf, he thought. "And how would I do that?" "I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." "Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it. "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say … but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister." (ADWD, Jon VI)

The vision keeps coming up and dictates some of Jon's decisions. Jeyne Poole (Sansa's friend) was forced to marry Ramsay in the guise of being Arya, she escapes, and people expect her to reunite with Jon and be the girl in grey (escaping a marriage, she was pretending to be his sister). Others point to Alys Karstark who runs to Jon to escape a marriage. The problem is, Mel doesn't know who it is, she only knows sister. People pick Jeyne because of the Arya connection, but neither she nor Alys are Jon's sister. And Jon has another sister, Sansa.

I would argue the reason that the girl in grey is Sansa (ie Sansa will flee North to escape LF's plots and reunite with Jon before Winterfell is taken/she is in a position of power), is if you read Jon's passage about the girl in grey, Jon being dead is written all over it. His white breath, the reference to him as a stranger, Jon telling himself he isn't a wolf...you see, here is the major spoiler...

Jon is assassinated at the end of TWOW.

Now, he may not actually be dead-dead, some of us have said he might be in a coma like Bran, but a) we believe he warged into Ghost (I am not a wolf--he will need to come back to himself, not lose himself in Ghost), b) the stranger = Jon is dead, c) the white breath = his body being cold cuz he's dead etc. The other side of this is, the way Jon sees Mel and remembers a different redhead can be viewed as foreshadowing for recently undead Jon seeing a redhead and mistaking her for Ygritte. The description of Mel's words like a song made people think of Sansa (it's been speculated Sansa's singing will help Jon remember things post rez/help him return to himself), and Ghost's strangely positive reaction to Mel may foreshadow how he reacts to Sansa as a familiar person. So, when I read that passage, it sounded to me like Sansa and Jon will be reuniting shortly after his rez, or even perhaps before his rez, so yes, I imagine that happens at the Wall.

Way back in 2013, a famous Jonsa essay predicted that Jon and Sansa would be reunited first of all the Starks, and then in 2016 that happened on the show which spurred a lot more discussion in the Jonsa fandom about Sansa being the girl in grey in the books as well.

I'll link some additional posts with various thoughts on how it might go.

Jon as the Stranger, Sansa as a silent sister. Pertinent quotes:

Then one morning she spied three women in the cowled grey robes of the silent sisters loading a corpse into their wagon. (ACOK, Arya VII) The women in grey bowed their heads. The silent sisters do not speak to the living, Catelyn remembered dully, but some say they can talk to the dead. (ACOK, Catelyn V) Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. (AFFC, Brienne VIII) When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss." (AFFC, Cersei IV)

@loveroflemons wrote a post in 2017 talking about Mel's prophecy and the map of the North to explain why Sansa is the Girl in Grey here. @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir has a post explaining that Sansa is Ned's narrative heir and her path North will follow his here, and some general ideas for her TWOW story here.

@istumpysk talks about The Girl in Grey foreshadowing here. @aegor-bamfsteel tried to give us a time table here, @redteabaron has talked about the possibility that Sansa will be hunted by Ramsay for some Red Riding Hood parallels here, That and Sansa meeting Ghost while Jon is still out of it is discussed here as well. And this post talks about Jon saving Sansa from Ramsay while warged into Ghost using some king’s prize/thief quotes. I also found a Tolkien poem (Martin is a massive fan) that has Girl in Grey vibes here (not proof, just fun).

Anyway, it's a very popular Jonsa theory, for many of us, a given at this point. For a different ask i scrolled some BNF blogs and they mocked it a lot, called us delusional because they can point to the other girls as fulfilling the prophecy, but to me, that prophecy takes up too much space for it to disappear without a real payoff. It makes sense to me that Martin would use that vision to prep us for Sansa arriving in the North.

Let me know what you think after you read ADWD!

#soon i'll post links for book verse girl in grey fics anon #not meta but jonsa fics have a funny habit of predicting things to come!#jonsa #dot chat #the girl in grey

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rosenroot · 11 months

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maybe Sansa with Jon? They are decent to me.

Gurrrl 😭 they share the same blood (cousins at best), he attached to the night watch and probably he aint even alive 😭😭😭

Anywayyy here have it, a jonsa fanart? You’ll see, the context is :

-Jon back to life (thanks Melisandre)

-between this and that, time passes (almost 2 years maybe?)

- Jon no longer in the NW But with some Northern Lords, Stannis and etc, ready to take back Winterfell, somehow Robb’s last wish of making Jon Kitn is discovered so Stannis and friends take it as an advantage to make Jon the Lord of winterfell

-but Sansa arrives at the same time with Littlefinger and the Vale army

-Of course each party is rooting for their own pawn so the feed the posibility of a Starkbowl

-However, when the inevitable meeting between Sansa and Jon happens, they dont want to fight? Like, it’s the first reunion between two starks, and they have seen a lot, and they think they are the only starks left, so they hug and cry a lot and it’s even funnier because they go like ‘no no no, you gotta be the Lord of Winterfell, Robb said so, I trust you’ and the other one goes ‘no way, Sansa, YOU are next in line, winterfell is yours, please be the Lady of Winterfell’

-buuut before any of Littlefinger or Stannis people makes a move…. Tan tan taaaan, Rickon arrives at Winterfell along Osha, Davos and Shaggydog, sooo Jon and Sansa are super happy for having another brother with them, but also they are like ‘Rickon will do’ and finally they have the common goal of raise and take care of their little brother (cause you know, the kid is 7 or less)

So thank you for reading all my little story hahaah, I hope twow dont do me that bad (if it even sees the light)

And you can see the artwork as a family love thing, or you can put your shipping goggles, it’s very okay too 😀

#for my jonsa followers #this is for u #jonsa #jon snow #sansa stark #request #fanart #asoiaf #artwork #illustration #asoiaf fanart #game of thrones #house stark #btw this was a draft I didnt even plan to finish #but thanks to you it can see the light hehe

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goodqueenaly · 5 months

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Love your tumblr! One question: do you think that stannis would really have burned edric storm if Davos hadn't smuggled him to lys?

Unfortunately, yes. Stannis makes this very clear, along with his reasoning for doing so, to Davos in "Davos V" ASOS (emphasis added):

“Edric—” he started. “—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies … [sic] a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone … [sic] she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must …[sic] we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?” “Your Grace,” said Davos, “the cost … [sic]” “I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning … [sic] burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?” The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King’s Landing. “If Joffrey should die … [sic] what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?”

This is the terrible tragedy of Stannis, or maybe the tragic terror - not simply that he was willing to burn his nephew, his ward, his only daughter's playmate and friend alive, but that he did so without a drop of sadistic pleasure or Snidely Whiplash-style villainy, because he genuinely believed that this was what he needed to do to save the world. Stannis knew, or believed he knew, that in being acclaimed as Azor Ahai Reborn he was being doomed to his own level of sacrifice; as he wryly noted to Davos, the burning crown was hardly a Delphic vision in its advertisement of his, Stannis', future destruction. Yet as Stannis also told Davos, he would not shirk away from what he believed to be his duty, temporal or apocalyptic. If "[t]he night that never ends" was (and is) threatening all of his people, then, so Stannis argued, he had to do what would save the greatest number of those people; he could not, by this logic, prioritize the life of one boy over the lives of so many boys and girls whose own lives were imminently threatened by a humanity-level crisis.

Further, Stannis demonstrated his commitment to this course of action by attempting to wring more guarantees from Melisandre immediately before Davos' surprise reveal:

Melisandre moved closer. “Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy.” “Edric Storm,” Davos said. Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. “I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty … [sic]” He turned back to Melisandre. “You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie.”

Here, Stannis clearly indicated to Davos that he had neither the time nor the patience for another philosophical debate on the morality of burning Edric Storm. Instead, Stannis repeated his brief, blunt thesis - "My duty is to the realm" - before allowing a moment of final conscience-clearing courtesy of Melisandre. Once again, Stannis shows that he was driven not by cruelty or hatred toward Edric the boy - indeed, not by any personal emotions at all - but a genuine belief that this, and nothing else, could save his realm from total destruction. His willingness to confirm with Melisandre that "there [was] no other way" illustrates how close Stannis came to the brink, already attempting to validate the conclusion even before the deed was done.

Of course, Stannis did not burn Edric, thanks to Davos' intervention. Yet his attempt, and more specifically his mindset for that attempt, hint at another, and likely more successful (in only the sense of being completed), sacrificial move. When the peril of the Others and the danger of another Long Night are at hand, I think Stannis will finally cross that line, burning not his nephew but his own daughter, believing, though I think completely wrongly, that only this sacrifice can save the world.

#asoiaf meta #stannis baratheon #edric storm

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jozor-johai · 2 months

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Dorne, Shown not Told: how Darkstar is more than his reputation.

Darkstar used to bug me as a character—not necessarily because of his edgy dialogue, but because the way he was written: he's not on-page for very long, so we're really told much more about him than we are shown anything.

I've seen this same complaint voiced before, and almost always it's brushed over as an inherent failure of Gerold as a character, or other arguments that presuppose a lack of faith in Martin.

I can understand why, without deeper analysis, some people try to make the Doylist argument that Darkstar must be lazy writing by Martin, something along the lines of "I have to introduce this guy quick, so here's a bunch of backstory told by a bunch of characters". Instead, though, I argue that this situation of being "told" so much about Darkstar is actually the Watsonian perspective of his character; it is Arianne who has been told so much about him, and we're experiencing her misconceptions.

I've come to realize that the feeling of being "told" about Darkstar, with a focus away from what we're "shown," is fully intentional. With this different approach to interpreting Darkstar's character, I've found that not only do I like him so much more as a character in-universe, but I also like him so much more as an element in George R R Martin's writing. Melisandre might be his "most misunderstood character," but I think Gerold Dayne must be up there too.

I don't understand why it took me so long to see it: ASOIAF is all about the way that information—or misinformation—spreads and changes the course of action and history. Of course this would be a theme to look out for. Once I started to dig more into this idea in relation to Darkstar, I realized just how prevalent this theme was in the Dornish arc, which is entirely about the way that people are told something, and the way that being told these things—even without evidence—has such an impact. That's what the companion post to this one is about.

If you've read that post already, and now I've got you on board to doubt the reputation that Darkstar has, and to doubt the story Arianne was told about him, this is the post where I rebuild Gerold's character from scratch, and convince you that he's actually an alright guy, a trustworthy one, and possibly even a true knight. Maybe, even, he's worthy of Dawn, and the title of "Sword of the Morning."

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this, as it's been so many years, but it's exciting to experience a moment of realization that makes me see the writing itself in a new light, so I wanted to share my thought process here.

2.0 Gerold Dayne, shown not told.

In this part, I attempt to look at Gerold Dayne as if I were Areo Hotah, not Arianne: to watch what he does and says, on page, rather than take anyone's word for it, and rather than interpret his actions against a prejudice that he is as dark and dangerous as Arianne thinks. This way, I want to see what kind of man Gerold Dayne actually shows us he is, through his actions and interactions, rather than who we're told he is.

Beyond just doubting Doran's story because I don't believe Doran to be trustworthy, here I'll be explaining why I think that once we get to know Darkstar as best as we can, maiming Myrcella doesn't even really sound like something he would do.

This is a long one too, like the other one, so the rest is after the cut

2.1 Early good impressions—by being early

We don't see very much of Darkstar on-page, so let's start with our very first impression of him, in the second paragraph of the chapter:

Arianne Martell arrived with Drey and Sylva just as the sun was going down, with the west a tapestry of gold and purple and the clouds all glowing crimson. The ruins seemed aglow as well; the fallen columns glimmered pinkly, red shadows crept across the cracked stone floors, and the sands themselves turned from gold to orange to purple as the light faded. Garin had arrived a few hours earlier, and the knight called Darkstar the day before.

We don't know when they arranged to meet, but I think there's room for a symbolic meaning to Arianne arriving just as the sun goes down. Symbolically, the day ending as soon as she arrives mirrors the way that her plan is going to end as soon as it begins.

In addition, it's a signature of Arianne's character this chapter, moving just slightly too slowly. In this way, Arianne is already more like her father than she wants to admit—remember the overripe oranges falling in The Captain of the Guards, or how Areo knew that Doran saying they would leave at dawn meant midday. Arianne is the same—she arrives to her own plan at dusk.

Even without that comparison, Arianne's late arrival is emblematic of her inability to structure a plan as carefully as she believes she can, which is also something that haunts her for the rest of his arc. Consider the meaning of this for her: she is the head of this plan, and yet she and her two companions are the last to arrive. Garin beats her to the rendezvous place by a few hours... and Darkstar is almost the opposite extreme. He gets there a whole day early.

Perhaps that's suspect, perhaps that's responsible; this alone is not enough to say. For a certainty, though, this clearly positions Darkstar as someone who is, say, the opposite of the "Late" Lord Walder Frey. He's a man who comes early, not late.

As the chapter continues, it's not the only time that Arianne lags carelessly while Darkstar vouches for a more responsible course of action, so keep this in mind. This passage sets the tone for the rest of the chapter.

2.2 What makes a man "Great"?

The next time we see Darkstar on page, we get his first line of dialogue and his first actual on-page action. He juts in while the others are talking about the storied hero who is Garin's namesake:

"Garin the Great," offered Drey, "the wonder of the Rhoyne." "That's the one. He made Valyria tremble." "They trembled," said Ser Gerold, "then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?" He snorted. "I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own." He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

There's a lot to unpack here for such a short passage. To begin with, we can interpret some of Darkstar's values from his additions to this conversation. He clearly has a certain pragmatism, because he chooses to see through the veneration that the stories have afforded "Garin the Great", and points out that his cause was actually poorly met. In this way, Gerold might come off like a humorless spoilsport, but we can also consider the fact that he's already learned some of the lessons that other characters, like Sansa, have been forced to face: reality does not match the songs, and not all "heroes" are good people.

Gerold also shows a concern for the ranks of the military. It's not about one man's veneration for him, it's about the success of the plan—and the survival of the men who act on it. This is actually the same concern for Dorne that Doran is obsessed with, at the end of The Watcher:

"Until the Mountain crushed my brother's skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings," the prince murmured softly, as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. "Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?"

Doran has spent a lifetime hemming and hawing over this notion, unsure of whether to act or to wait, and choosing inaction over decision. By stark contrast, Gerold speaks with a casual certainty: "Garin the Great" was no good at all, because all his men died, and he lost. It might make him sound like a cynic, but Dayne knows what he believes in. Leading men to their death is no greatness at all.

2.3 Choosing one's own name

And, now knowing his thoughts on blind veneration, we might reinterpret his decision to invent his own nickname. Rather than grasping for approval from in songs (like Tywin's Rains of Castamere), his act of naming himself could be seen as a sign of honor, not blind pride.

"If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?" He snorted. "I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

He does not believe in misjudged "bravery" for the sake of a title, and therefore is unlike so many others who we see across ASOIAF ready to die fighting in their desire for glory. Rather than dreaming of becoming immortalized in a song, Darkstar has no lust for public approval—he's given himself his own title, and means to prove himself against his own standard.

And at least it is his own. ASOIAF is a story where so much weight is put into names and epithets—Arya and Sansa losing their names and even their chapter titles, Brienne and Jaime fighting against the disparaging nicknames they are given. Here, Darkstar has already proven himself past all of those troubles with this one action—regardless of whatever names others should call him, or even remember him by, he shall go by this one, the name, and the fate, that he chose for himself.

2.4 Honing the blade

And then, immediately, Gerold starts caring for his blade.

He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

Interestingly, the list of people who hone their blade on-page is surprisingly short. This shared action puts Gerold in league with the likes of Brienne:

I will, she promised his shade, there in the piney wood. She sat down on a rock, took out her sword, and began to hone its edge. I will remember, and I pray I will not flinch.

And also the likes of Yoren, Arya, Jon, Meera, Barristan, and Hotah himself; all of whom are dutiful if not also generally good-hearted. Ilyn Payne and Rakharo, care for their blades on-page, too, and though I'm not sure if they get enough story time to argue whether or not they are good-hearted, they are certainly pragmatic, skilled, and committed. Bronn, too, hones his blade on-page, and even if not good-hearted, he's these other positive qualities, the ones that make him likeable even in his scoundrel status: Bronn is skilled, pragmatic, dedicated to his craft, and even committed after his own fashion (he does name his adoptive child Tyrion, after all).

Better tying this to a morality case, the first time we see Sandor Clegane caring for his blade is after the Red Wedding, after he fully commits to taking in Arya. Similarly, Jaime is only seen caring for his blade in Feast and later, after he begins to have his own character turn towards searching for honor.

In stark contrast, Theon pulls out his blade to "sharpen" it before facing his father in Clash, but he only "gave it a few licks" with the whetstone ... what a total poser.

(It's a silly thing, but the most minor character we see sharpening a blade is a stray Blackwood... so you know these are the good guys, haha. Oswell Whent, too, which I don't make much of myself but I know others have.)

So, when we see Gerold Dayne start to sharpen his blade as his first on-page action, we might think: here is a man who is responsible, who is committed to duty, who believes in taking care of his person and his honor. Tying little actions like this to character qualities is the kind of thing GRRM does frequently.

2.5 Sober attitude

To a similar end, we also see that Gerold Dayne doesn't drink, preferring water with lemon.

Once the kindling caught, they sat around the flames and passed a skin of summerwine from hand to hand . . . all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater.

Which puts him in league with Brienne again:

"I would prefer water," said Brienne. "Elmar, the red for Ser Jaime, water for the Lady Brienne, and hippocras for myself." Bolton waved a hand at their escort, dismissing them, and the men beat a silent retreat.

As well as Stannis, paragon of "duty":

But not today, I think—ah, here's your son with our water." Devan set the tray on the table and filled two clay cups. The king sprinkled a pinch of salt in his cup before he drank; Davos took his water straight, wishing it were wine.

Again, this is the kind of quality that is associated with people who are attached to their sense of duty. (Note also that as Brienne feels increasingly lost during her search for Sansa, we see her increasingly drink wine. Roose, for his part, doesn't just drink wine, but wants wine sweetened with sugar and spices, which, like Littlefinger's minty breath, covers up his harsh reality).

So Gerold Dayne, in word and action, seems to have more in common with duty- and honor-bound characters, rather than being the heartless rogue which the Martells seem to believe he is.

2.6 Arianne's imagination versus Gerold's reality

Arianne asserts that Gerold would go so far as to exterminate an entire clan... but it's while she's fantasizing about ruling Sunspear with Myrcella as Queen:

Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and branch.

So we know what Arianne thinks he's capable of, but we also have heard Dayne's own thoughts that war for its own sake is not laudable. Would he really be the type to eradicate a whole family, like Arianne says? So far, he seems otherwise like an alright guy, and potentially even a true knight, so far: he takes care of his sword, he stays sober, he arrives early, he's not searching for glory from others, and he doesn't believe one should be rewarded for idiotic wars.

If I were to put this in a single quote—if I could create a single moment where I might show that Arianne's mental image of Darkstar is one way (hard, dangerous, mean) and his reality was a different way (dutiful, pragmatic, and good-hearted)—I might show it like this:

He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry. He must have felt her gaze upon him, for he looked up from his sword, met her eyes, and smiled.

Does he have a cruel mouth, and dark, angry eyes? Or does he have an easy smile? Arianne tells us the former... but so far, we are shown the latter.

And what does Gerold himself say with that "cruel tongue"? What counsel does he give, what courses does he suggest?

2.7 Gerold's bloody suggestion

Before Myrcella arrives, Gerold Dayne has the chance to offer counsel to Arianne. This moment comes directly following that moment where all of Arianne's other conspirators confide that they don't trust him, and that they don't need him for the plan. Immediately afterward, Darkstar returns and suggests that the plan isn't very good to begin with.

Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. "It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want."

While all of Arianne's friends have warned her of Darkstar, why is it that Darkstar is the only one to warn Arianne that this is a poor plan? It's important to remember that he's right, after all, because this plan gets thwarted, and as he goes on to say, was ill-concieved to begin with. If he can see it, why have none of Arianne's other allies considered this? Or, more interestingly, why have none of them told her?

This conversation continues, and notice how Arianne is never straightforward with Gerold about how she feels in response to his questioning. She says one thing, and then thinks another to herself. Already, we are being shown how we might be distrustful of what we are told—and again, Arianne has more in common with her father than she thinks. She knows how to speak carefully when she really has another objective.

"And what is it I want, ser?" "The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion blood." That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father's seat. I want Dorne. "I want justice." "Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked." "The lion's dead. Who knows which cub the lioness prefers?" "The one in her own den." Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. "This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel."

At first blush, it's easy to get caught up in the notion that Darkstar is simply offering to kill Myrcella for the ease of it all. We're told the whole chapter that Darkstar is a violent man, and here's the evidence.

Arianne herself only considers this interpretation, and it's how she remembers the conversation once she's imprisoned:

He wanted to kill her instead of crowning her, he said as much at Shandystone. He said that was how I'd get the war I wanted.

However, this conversation, though brief, is not so simple as that. Instead, while Gerold's advice to Arianne here at first seems unnecessarily violent, he's actually displaying wisdoms that we learn elsewhere in the story.

For a start, we see Gerold's disdain for vengeance for it's own sake—and his suggestion to Arianne that this quest of revenge and authority will not actually get her what she wants. In Gerold's words, she wants "a taste of lion's blood." He knows this song, as he says, as well as Ellaria, who gives an identical warning with far more impassioned language to the same audience ADWD The Watcher:

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"

Gerold says it more simply, and more harshly: this quest for vengeance and lion's blood will not get you what you want.

He then tries another angle, saying that "Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want." This sounds, at first, like a complaint of the plan's futility, but he offers a suggestion of how to achieve said war instead: "Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel."

I have to point out the metaphor at use in this moment:

Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies.

A blade as sharp as lies—yet another allusion to this constant Dornish theme of lying and deadly misinformation. Seen from another perspective, we might put it another way: that lies are as deadly as a blade. This, too, is Doran's message: that the grass which hides the snake is just as deadly.

This too is Gerold's message, because in combination, his suggestion that crowning her is empty and to kill her is simpler sounds like an allusion to another wisdom we learn later in ADWD Tyrion I, given by Illyrio when Tyrion alights on the same bright idea as Arianne, to crown Myrcella:

"In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her."

Gerold understands this, and he displays it in this conversation. His offer here, then, is to skip the trouble in between—the girl will never sit the Iron Throne in any case, so Arianne should just kill her and be done with it, and have your war that way.

Rather than a threat against Myrcella's life, the way Arianne remembers it, we might see this as a challenge: if Gerold sees that both acts end in Myrcella's death, and both in war, he's presenting Arianne reality of the lack of choice.

In a way, this is consistent with his earlier complaints about Garin the Great—was it worth it to make Valyria "tremble" at the cost of so many of his own? Gerold's question, though harshly put, makes Arianne face that question now, before they start off with the plans.

Like her father, though, Arianne defers the problem, preferring not to address it this night.

I am no murderer of children. "Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection. And Ser Arys will permit no harm to come to his precious princess, you know that."

Arianne makes the choice, but she does not say it aloud. Why? Because even she sees that it's contradictory to raise her up and expect her to live?

As we see so often with Arianne, she foolishly answers that it's not her responsibility. Myrcella may be under her protection, but Arianne relies on Ser Arys' action to keep it that way. Arianne tries to argue that the weight of this threat to Myrcella is not Arianne's burden to take, but rather Arys'.

Darkstar disagrees, pointing out the longstanding rivalry between the Dornish and the Marcher Lords.

"No, my lady. What I know is that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for several thousand years." His arrogance took her breath away. "It seems to me that Oakhearts have been killing Daynes for just as long." "We all have our family traditions." Darkstar sheathed his sword. "The moon is rising, and I see your paragon approaching."

Finally, though, actions once again speak louder than words. Rather than pull his sword here against Arys, like he was just threatening to do, he sheathes his sword when he spots Arys, obeying Arianne's command. So far, whatever he's said, Gerold is still committed to following Arianne's wishes.

His threats about Daynes killing Oakhearts has another layer of meaning, though, in this complete context: Daynes have been killing Oakhearts, yes, but it's not just Daynes who wouldn't blink at killing a Marcher, it's all of the Dornish—as Arys is so intimately aware of in his one chapter.

As much as Arianne is dodging responsibility, she's also right that Arys is the final obstacle in anyone's way should they wish to do harm to Myrcella. Note, though, that despite the story Doran and Arianne later tell the Sand Snakes, it is not Darkstar who slays Arys—it's Areo Hotah. If we say that actions speak louder than words, hear this: Gerold sheathes his sword when Arys approaches, and it is Doran (through Areo) who kills Myrcella's most leal protector.

Given all the trouble Doran later goes to in an attempt to smooth over Arys' death, Gerold is probably right here that a dead Arys means war. Once again, Gerold is a pragmatic thinker, in theory. In my opinion, despite the cruelty of his suggestion, his conversation about the death of Myrcella is a reality check, not a call for wanton violence.

2.8 Gerold's good counsel and care

Later comes the second time where Arianne lags carelessly... and here, Gerold steps in to give Arianne good counsel.

Arianne had hoped to reach the river before the sun came up, but they had started much later than she'd planned, so they were still in the saddle when the eastern sky turned red. Darkstar cantered up beside her. "Princess," he said, "I'd set a faster pace, unless you mean to kill the child after all. We have no tents, and by day the sands are cruel."

Here, contradicting the stories of Gerold Dayne as a cruel man, Darkstar seems to show more direct concern for Myrcella's wellbeing than any of the other plotters. Arianne—like her father—moves to slow, and Gerold wants to make sure that the girl isn't killed. He's not just pragmatic in theory, he can also be pragmatic and considerate when it comes to the young girl with them.

Here, also, we see that Gerold does not actually mean the girl harm. The accusation that Darkstar slashed Myrcella implies this narrative where Darkstar took advantage of the chaos to finally take his chance to kill the girl and make good on his threat. If that were the case, then here Darkstar could have simply said nothing, and let the girl suffer or even die from the heat. Instead, he speaks up in order to spare Myrcella from the sand's cruelty.

2.9 Gerold's opinion of Arthur Dayne

With all of this context, I'll finally take a look at Gerold's opinion of Arthur Dayne.

As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?" "He was a great knight," Ser Arys Oakheart put in. "He had a great sword," Darkstar said. "And a great heart."

He clearly loves the Dayne house, but seems to have less respect than most for Arthur. Many and more have taken this to be a sign of petty envy, that Darkstar is questioning Arthur's skill at swordplay, perhaps in comparison to his own.

But consider the quote another way: we know from his opinion of "Garin the Great" that Gerold resists the idea of blindly idolizing heroes only because they have become great in the telling. This newer hero, Arthur, is no more special to him. What has he actually done, not what stories have been told of him?

Once again, this is a return of our theming: being shown, not told. Gerold is quick to resist the allure of the songs of Arthur Dayne—to Gerold, there are plenty of other Daynes just as special, or perhaps even more so. This is not a lack of love for his house, nor for honor and glory—quite the opposite. Like with choosing his own name, Darkstar wants to create his own context to see Arthur in, as part of a ten thousand year old lineage of great Daynes (ha) and not some special, magic knight.

Perhaps Gerold Dayne is pointing out that there is more to a knight than having a sword; perhaps he is condemning the idea of equating "swordplay" with "greatness".

What we hear about Arthur is more often than not about his prowress with a sword, but consider the context in which Arthur Dayne was brought up in this chapter. When Myrcella brings him up, his reputation is marred by the fact it's own existence:

"There was an Arthur Dayne," Myrcella said. "He was a knight of the Kingsguard in the days of Mad King Aerys."

Not the most good-hearted of details to remember him by, truth be told.

I suggest that this passage instead serves to suggest that Gerold has a stricter sense of what is valorous than most. Even the great, seemingly infallible Arthur Dayne was a sword in defense of the Mad King. Does serving the Mad King still make for a "great knight"? Or only a "great sword"?

Of course, there's another interesting aspect to this quote: despite his disregard for the particular qualities of Arthur, Gerold is more than willing to acknowledge the greatness of the sword Dawn. I'll get into that at the end.

2.10 Gerold sues for peace

Finally, in his final appearance on-page, we get a last word from Gerold Dayne, who, this time, says exactly what Arianne is thinking... when she, again, is too slow to act, and is unable to say anything herself.

You reckless fool, was all that Arianne had time to think, what do you think you're doing? Darkstar's laughter rang out. "Are you blind or stupid, Oakheart? There are too many. Put up your sword."

Darkstar suggests to all that they surrender. He suggests they put up their swords. Yet again, this is a consistent characterization for Darkstar: a man who speaks against the honor of leading others in a death charge, a man who is a sober thinker, a man who plans to arrive early, and a man who considers heavily the consequences of the actions at hand, especially when they end in the death of a young girl.

After all this, I don't think it sounds like Darkstar to make a wild, reckless, opportune grasp for Myrcella's life, no matter whatever Doran says. Instead, Gerold Dayne has all the trappings of a dutiful knight, and even his brusque edges come from a certain brutal realism, not a sense of jilted pride. He may even be a good and caring man at times.

3.0 My predictions for TWOW: GRRM's next moves

I used to really not like Darkstar. I don't mind him being a little cringe, because this whole series, as well written as it is, still has plenty of pulpy 80s underpinnings which I love just as much as the highbrow stuff. I can handle a little melodrama, fine... but why is Darkstar so flat, I wondered. It felt so incredibly—uncharacteristically—clumsy to have this hurried introduction of a character, and have everyone in the chapter rush to tell the reader how dangerous he is, just so he could do the "dangerous guy" thing and run off to become the next MacGuffin of Dorne.

That is, if everything, or anything, that we were told about him is true.

If we understand that not all we're told is true, then GRRM hasn't actually spent a whole chapter telling without showing. Instead, he's been consistently playing with the same notions of actual reality vs. stories and lies that the rest of the Dornish plot revolves around (and the rest of the series, for that matter, but I'm staying focused here).

In addition, all of that telling we got about Gerold Dayne wasn't at all for the purpose of giving us a quick, surface level introduction to the character (which makes sense, because George is otherwise so good with character). Instead, all that telling is part of a larger, longer plot about Doran's scheming and lying, and Arianne's own susceptibility to Doran's stories.

Finally, and most of all, it all sets up one of GRRM's favorite things to do: a subversion of a character in a twist that involves a sudden change of perspective.

If Arianne and Doran have spent 4 (or 5, including TWOW previews) chapters now telling us what a nasty guy Gerold Dayne is, won't it be a shock once he's granted Dawn rightfully and is named the next Sword of the Morning? What's even better is that, looking back, it will be clear to see how much he isn't a nasty guy—he's actually a pretty good candidate, dutiful, smart, aware of the consequences. He's the kind of guy to take care of himself, keeping his mind and blade sharp, and to be considerate of those lesser than him, as with Myrcella or Garin's army. He may not be a nice guy, but being nice and kind are not always the same. That character of Darkstar, the knight worthy of Dawn, was there all along—except that it was all obfuscated under Arianne internal narration and Doran's repeated lying.

After all, he is of the night... which sounds super edgy, but is foreshadowing too. What comes after the night? The Morning.

Being "of the night" might not be Darkstar being an antihero, but instead being anti- heroes, he's against the concept of the overinflated hero. Like Sandor Clegane, who starts to seem more and more a true knight despite despising knights, Darkstar may be set up to take on a legendary mantle, like Sword of the Morning, despite his utter disdain for legendary heroes, like Ser Arthur and Garin the Great.

And actually, I suspect that Darkstar is quite familiar with Dawn already—after all, despite his cool words about Ser Arthur, Gerold Dayne does seem to recognize the greatness of Dawn. I expect that he's seen its value for himself.

Gerold is the type of man to take himself seriously ... and while that's very easy to make fun of from a reader's perspective, it's a very admirable quality in a knight. It's the same trajectory Jaime has been on: everything used to be a joke to him, but no longer: Jaime is learning how to shed that shield of humor and to take himself and his honor seriously. Can we begrudge Ser Gerold the same?

Rather than hunting down a villain, Areo Hotah, Obara, and Balon Swann are on Doran's truth-suppression mission. For after all, as Lady Nym pointed out, loose ends make for exposed lies. If I replace some of the names of her cautionary message from The Watcher:

If Gerold Dayne is alive, soon or late the truth will out. If he appears again, Doran Martell will be exposed as a liar before all the Seven Kingdoms. He would be an utter fool to risk that.

And so Doran sends his unbeatable Hotah, with his massive and lethal axe that already killed one Kingsguard and might well kill another. How is Gerold Dayne going to match up against that?

Well, he'll have a great sword.

#jozor thoughts #asoiaf meta #asoiaf analysis #Doran Martell and Gerold Dayne #valyrianscrolls #twow speculation #darkstar #Dorne Told not Shown

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dora-papp · 3 months

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I've been here for over a month now, so: a bit of an introduction then.

My name is Dóra, I'm from Hungary. I'm 32. I write books. Been a bookworm since I was 8 and been writing since I was 13.

Got into My Chemical Romance at the age of 15. Gerard and the gang kindly showed me that "art is the weapon, your imagination is the ammunition" and I'd like to think that I haven't strayed from that path since then.

Fed my braincells with Tolkien and Gaiman throughout my teenage years.

My first novel was published in Hungary when I was 19.

Got a degree in American studies. Wrote my thesis on stereotypical portrayal of witch characters in contemporary American literature, focusing on GRR Martin's Melisandre. I'm so obsessed with the topic of witch-hunts and the collective feminine trauma that stems from it that I kinda wrote a fantasy trilogy about it.

I've also written books about Hungarian neopagan vikings. Honored to have been chosen as the best Hungarian young adult author in 2019. I'm fascinated by outcasts and weird teens. Yes, I'm the writer who tells the story of the unhinged fun ones.

Yes, I'm obviously obsessed with David Tennant, why is that even a question?

Yes, I wish I'd started using this fantastic hellsite years ago. But I'm here now anyway - thanks to Neil Gaiman.

If you want to say hi or if you have questions about storytelling, books, or the situation in Hungary, I'm right here. Love y'all.

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pixiecactus · 2 months

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i'll make this my pinned post:

so a dany hater followed this blog, sorry dude (in a non binary way) but i think this isn't the blog for you, daenerys targaryen is my absolute second favourite character after arya, i know that most of my posts are focusing in the starks, but that's because after arya and dany, jon and bran are my favourites too, but honestly that's it, the starks are not a monolith and i only like very few of them, i think that ned stark was a negletful father, i don't dislike catelyn but i have a problem with her treatment of jon and her treatment of arya, i honestly don't have an opinion on robb, i'll look foward to have more information on rickon on the books and i tend to dislike book!sansa but most of the time i don't really care about her at all but absolutely hate the show!sansa and fanon!sansa (they are almost one and the same) that stansas are trying to push onto everyone else in this fandom. that's why for my mental health i have most of the popular stansas's accounts blocked

so yeah, about the key five, i love arya, dany, jon and bran and i like tyrion, and about the others characters i'm always changing my mind on jaime, i want to protect brienne, samwell and shireen, if i'm being honest i don't really care about theon, i really like the tyrells (olenna, margaery and loras), i despise tywin lannister, robert and joffrey baratheon, how things came to be between stannis and renly makes me sad, i adore arianne martell, i want to know more about the daynes, i'm heavily invested in the young griff/jon connington plotpoint, cersei and melisandre are really intriguing to me, i want to know more about lyanna and rhaegar's relationship and gendry is best boy for me

i'm mostly a gendrya shipper, i don't have a problem with jonrya, i'm on board with a future jonerys ship, i like braime and renlyxloras (do they have a ship name?)

my posts will be always talking about the asoiaf! characters as i think that the show "game of thrones" is an awful abomination. i'm not a native english speaker or writer so my posts always will be full of grammatical errors

i read the books when i was still a teenage girl back in 2014, last year i spent my time rereading arya's chapters again as an adult man with better understanding about grrm's writing style and definitely i'll read all the books again when i have the time

to end this: i'm a aroace trans man so i'm part of the queer community, if you have a problem with any part of that sentence, please block me and lastly i wish i could follow back the people that follow this blog, but i want to maintain this sideblog with my mainblog completely separate, hope you undestand!

#besides that person's blog was full of dany hate posts from stansas that i blocked a long time ago #so if you are a stansa and for some reason i don't have you blocked yet and you are seeing this please do yourself a favor and block me #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #house stark #eddard stark #catelyn stark #robb stark #jon snow #sansa stark #arya stark #bran stark #rickon stark #house targaryen #daenerys targaryen #ren rants

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horizon-verizon · 13 days

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Userhttps://www.tumblr.com/witheredoffherwitch/747550490833928192/as-i-continue-to-spend-more-time-in-this-fandom-i?source=share

"Her descendants exclusively blame her for the extinction of their dragons - and not a single descendant carried her name thereafter. Her surviving lineage brands her as a traitor and that same line went extinct mainly because of the Dance."

This is a lie, right? Only Stannis recognizes Rhaenyra as a traitor, and Arianne recognizes her as the true heir. It's not known what her other descendants think about her or the Dance and succession. There isn't a single quote where they exclusively blame her for the extinction of the dragons."

Stannis Baratheon

Stannis--who is trying to make claim for the throne through male primogeniture himself and is a rigidly unlikeable guy besides...like this is what he's known for, being intolerable to be around--from what I researched is the only one to be so vitriolic towards Rhaenyra in a way that this user you're linking me to is making her legacy and the cultural feelings are towards her. It serves him to brand her as a "traitor" specifically because he's trying to invalidate the Lannister-Baratheons that are on the throne; to default to the traditions of having any trueborn male come before trueborn girls gives his claim credence. btw, he also names his daughter his heir and he will never have a boy. We can say that he could still set aside his wife but he hasn't bc he needs/needed her family and no family has come forward to offer him any of their daughters at the right time, so...he delulu. And not the fun kind, the really sad and annoying kind. Even if he did have a son, he still used his daughter to "warm up" the spot and try to get others to support him--similar to Viserys naming Rhaenyra (except he had the decency to be serious abt it) just so he can make use of potential allies. Rhaenyra needed heirs to solidify her claim? So did Stannis, and he used Shireen.

Thereby, with that and his disbelief in any religion but continued use of Melisandre to scare people, he's much more dishonest with himself about what is the "right" thing to do. And we already know that in Winds of Winter, he will burn his own daughter. So let's not take the words of the only descendant we definitely know calls Rhaenyra a "traitor", yeah? Typical hypocritical extreme nihilism. Total opposite of Dany, who locks away her own "children" to preserve the lives of others' children and contemplates family betrayal as negative in relation to power-grasping [down below].

Oh, and Robert, his brother and the person of whom he's saying he is the true heir to? Robert made use of their shared Targaryen mother--Rhaelle--to add more legitimacy to his reign. Thus to Stannis' potential reign as well.

Other mentions of Rhaenyra both in the main series and in the Hegde Knight series (so PoVs, not written histories) are:

None blame her for the extinction of dragons specifically; they mostly mention the how the "rift" or rivalry between "sister" and "brother" tore the realm part and plunged it into a devastating war. That's more the OG poster projecting their ideas onto those people outside of the Citadel.

And this is really emphasized by how Dany remember her own brother (abusive and once said he'd tear her own son from her womb, hah!) relating the tale of how Rhaenyra's son had forced his dragon into eating Rhaenyra right in front of her son (in contemplation of the "price of power" when she learns that a young girl is killed by presumably dragonfire, by one of her own dragons, the source of her ability to rise to power and protect those she wants to protect).

So here's the thing about Fire & Blood and even A World of Ice and Fire...both are books written by people who have not witnessed most of the things they write about AND are doing their best to BOTH record historical events AND push out propaganda or propaganda-like material to maintain a certain status quo. For Gyldayn, it is anti-female rulership/women in higher positions of power and with similar or close-to-traditionally-male-assigned positions.

Fire and Blood

Not only is Gyldayn already a man who has lived within the re-affirmed stigma against female leadership the Dance left Westeros in its wake, Gyldayn is trying to tell us how a woman, at all, being the heir to the throne of Westeros was itself catastrophic, and is using the war to affirm that idea. Meanwhile, when we really look at the whole of Westerosi history we realize two things:

much more women been used up, tortured, killed, etc. by men in any sort of position of power than those have been actually used their power for evil and selfish destruction once they had it or were close to it THAN IN THE REVERSE---ancillary as a Consort or the "highest"/central: Queen Alyssa, Queen Alysanne, Aerea & Rhaella's isolation and removal from the line of succession, Ceryse Hightower, Alys Harroway, most of Aegon IV's mistresses and certainly his sister wife Naerys, Daena, Elena, and their sister Rhaena, Argella Durrandon, Cassella Staunton, Shiera Blackwood, Rhaena the rider of Dreamfyre, Helaena, Jaehaera, Jeyne Arryn, Mysaria, Cassandra Baratheon, Saera, Viserra, Daella, *Princess Alyssa, Myrielle Peake, Lucinda Penrose, Jeyne Westerling, Elinor Costayne, that unnamed Lannister woman who married the man who would inherit her family's lands after taking her family name, Marla Sunderland, etc. Truly, the system already takes care of women who either just want a little bit more protection and agency or are ambitious or just want to protect their ancestral lands. (Except in Dorne, even though you can make the case of nonDornish people inflicting cultural violence against Princess Meria Martell's legacy by calling her a "toad" and saying she was a witch, but that doesn't affect the Martell women as much as nonDornish women...unless they are lowborn--Sylvenna Sand & Obara's mother).

even in his own telling of the Dance, him being a maester (the Hightowers have funded the Citadel for years and socially benefit from doing so by reputation of being pillars of the Faith), he fails to obscure just how greedy, traitorous, and destructive the green/green supporting males were...more so than most of the women he's recounting---INCLUDING Aegon, who was told to have been convinced of becoming king only to avoid Rhaenrya's wrath...which was quickly disproved by her explicitly stating that she wouldn't hurt him if he just gave up...and he responded by saying that he'd kill or seriously injure her...which he eventually did, as well as traumatize/nearly mutilate her 10 year old son as a deterrent to her many supporters

If there are descendants blaming her, they are mainly men AND they tend to be cruel, foolish, or otherwise men who should themselves never rule over a group of people for hos irresponsible they take to power. Fire and Blood rather shows us what happens when you let misogyny rule the world; it's liable to burn with how degrading you keep your women, esp those who already have dragons that you can entrust power rather than stifle and oppress. "Rhaenyra" is not a name used again for two reasons, one Doylist and the other Watsonian:

Doylist: she is mean to be a sort of "marker" between two periods of Targ history: no dragons vs the dragons...as the "peak" of the ruling Targs, when they were at their most powerful. not because she herself was so special or unique, but because of her position in the timeline

Watsonian: again, she is blamed, sexistly, for the Dance even though it was the greens who usurped her, etc....the council that convened after the Dance were full of men who didn't learn the real lesson and decided, esp after Baela's actions, to not place a woman on the throne bc "it causes too much trouble"...so the name itself is probably "cursed" in the sens that no Targ wanted to bring disfavor to themselves like how Aerion named one of his kids "Maegor"

It's a case of a man almost getting the real point, and skipping right over it. That person you link? They also missed the point entirely.

And yes, Arianne, one of her blood descendants, attributes her as the true queen...which she was. But remember, it's not so much that Rhaenyra wasn't the "true" heir, but that having a female ruler "causes chaos" so we shouldn't do it anymore.

AWoIaF

On the other hand, Yandel (AWoIaF) has several subtle exotifications & interpretations of foreign people's that come from Westerosi-Andal distaste for magic and suspicions of non-Faith practitioners. But more importantly, he was writing the book in dedication to first Robert, then Joffrey, and then Tommen and to the new Lannister-Baratheon alliance/dynasty that replaced the past Targaryen one, which had ended with a mad man but for the most part had non-mad people. The book really capitalizes on the Targaryens' boldness and possible link to power and mystery to paint the Baratheon-Lannisters as the best for Westeros, as the most righteous set of people to rule...(*cough, cough).

And you can see it when he's describing Robert's role in the Rebellion, the Lannisters, Tywin in particular, and how he characterizes the rebellion:

#asoiaf asks to me #rhaenyra targaryen #westerosi history #fire and blood writing #asoiaf writing #westerosi women #westerosi queens #westerosi sexism #stannis baratheon's characterization #rhaenyra's characterization #fire and blood characters #agot characterization #awoiaf writing #agot #awoiaf #fire and blood #asoiaf themes

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istumpysk · 10 months

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Operation Stumpy Re-Read

TWOW: The Forsaken (Aeron Dam-phair)

It's one of those chapters.

It was always midnight in the belly of the beast. The mutes had robbed him of his of robe and shoes and breechclout. He wore hair and chains and scabs. Saltwater sloshed about his legs whenever the tide came in, rising as high as his genitals only to ebb again when the tide receded. His feet had grown huge and soft and puffy, shapeless things as big as hams. He knew that he was in some dungeon, but not where, or for how long.

Believe it or not, this is not Theon Greyjoy.

Quick note, this chapter is going to span several months, so it might be a bit tricky following the timeline. I'll do my best to make things easy to understand, but just know this chapter covers the following:

The aftermath of the Kingsmoot on Old Wyck

The attack of the Shield Islands

The initial stages of the Arbor attack

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The night they moved him, he had seen the moon floating on a black wine sea with a leering face that reminded him of Euron.

Moon imagery for squid and dragon, love that for them.

+.+.+

When he slept, the darkness would rise up and swallow him and then the dream would come … and Urri and the scream of a rusted hinge.

You ever notice that of all the recurrent POV characters, it's the two religious fanatics, Melisandre and Dam-phair, who have had the most traumatic childhoods?

(Please pretend Areo Hotah doesn't exist for the sake of my interesting observation.)

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Sometimes, Euron came himself. Aeron would wake from sleep to find his brother standing over him, lantern in hand. Once, aboard the Silence, he hung the lantern from a post and poured them cups of wine. "Drink with me, brother," he said. That night he wore a shirt of iron scales and a cloak of blood red silk. His eyepatch was red leather, his lips blue.

Did you know the way we dress can greatly influence how others perceive us? First impressions are often based on appearance, and dressing in line with expectations can help create a positive image.

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"What can you offer me that I have not had before?" Euron smiled. "I left the islands in the hands of old Erik Ironmaker, and sealed his loyalty with the hand of our sweet Asha. I would not have you preaching against his rule, so I took you with us."

The man's got brains, what can I say?

He may be a total fraud, but he dodged the dumb Greyjoy genes.

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Euron grabbed a handful of the priest's tangled black hair, pulled his head back, and lifted the wine cup to his lips. But what flowed into his mouth was not wine. It was thick and viscous, with a taste that seemed to change with every swallow. Now bitter, now sour, now sweet. When Aeron tried to spit it out, his brother tightened his grip and forced more down his throat. "That's it, priest. Gulp it down. The wine of the warlocks, sweeter than your seawater, with more truth in it than all the gods of earth."

[...]

Aeron hawked and spat. The spittle struck his brother's cheek and hung there, blue-black, glistening. Euron flicked it off his face with a forefinger, then licked the finger clean.

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And when the Damphair slept, sagging in his chains, he heard the creak of a rusted hinge. "Urri!" he cried. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. His brother Urrigon was long dead, yet there he stood. One arm was black and swollen, stinking with maggots, but he was still Urri, still a boy, no older than the day he died.

Hey, Victarion's got one of those too.

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"You know what waits below the sea, brother?" "The Drowned God," Aeron said, "the watery halls." Urri shook his head. "Worms … worms await you, Aeron."

You might also find Euron and Victarion down there.

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When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

"The bleeding star bespoke the end," he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits." Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. "Kneel, brother," the Crow's Eye commanded. "I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest."

"Never. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!"

"Why would I want that hard black rock? Brother, look again and see where I am seated."

Aeron Damphair looked. The mound of skulls was gone. Now it was metal underneath the Crow's Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood.

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith … even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath.

And there, swollen and green, half-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. Then, Euron Crow's Eye laughed again, and the priest woke screaming in the bowels of Silence, as piss ran down his leg. It was only a dream, a vision born of foul black wine.

God, I don't know. I'm so tired.

He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

Not sure why it's called his blood eye, when it's black. That's a great way of tricking your fanbase into writing hundreds of Euron x Bloodraven metas.

The scale as dark as onyx might be the Valyrian steel armour he'll rock later in this chapter.

Euron Crow's Eye stood upon the deck of Silence, clad in a suit of black scale armor like nothing Aeron had ever seen before. Dark as smoke it was [...]

As for the mound of blackened skulls, I'm going to go out out on a limb and say they represent a significant loss of life on a large scale, caused by fire.

The dwarves are similar to Daenerys' dwarves from the House of the Undying.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. - Daenerys IV, ACOK

Most people believe those dwarves symbolize the four kings tearing through Westeros in pursuit of the Iron Throne, and it wouldn't be a bad guess to assume they represent the same thing here.

These dwarves will pop up again later in this chapter,

Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

and all signs are pointing towards Daenerys and Aegon, two new claimants of the Iron Throne.

That leaves the burning forest behind him. I've seen people speculate it's the Kingswood, Horn Hill, and a few other locations, among other guesses.

I personally believe it's one of two options: 1) The forest represents the Old Gods - in this same vision we see the death of all deities, or 2) It's symbolizing the Citadel (Oldtown) - books, books are burning.

"The bleeding star bespoke the end," he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."

Daenerys aka Azor Ahai aka Fate's Fumbler aka Destiny's Dud.

The Volantene waved a hand. "In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. [...]" - Tyrion VI, ADWD

What I especially love about this is that Dam-phair's learning that the comet's meaning is the opposite of what he initially believed. Initially, it was a promising sign, he interpreted it as a harbinger of triumph and glory for House Greyjoy and the ironborn.

The priest had dreamed the same dream, when first he'd seen the red comet in the sky. We shall sweep over the green lands with fire and sword - The Drowned Man, AFFC

Now, he is confronted with the revelation that the comet actually points towards an apocalyptic end.

Isn't that fascinating? Isn't that super interesting? I wonder if other priests are going to be forced to come to terms with the fact that they misconstrued certain prophecies.

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him.

Christ, more horn. There is a horn that some claim can command krakens.

Lord Celtigar had many fine wines that now I am not tasting, a sea eagle he had trained to fly from the wrist, and a magic horn to summon krakens from the deep. - Davos V, ASOS

I have no clue if it matters at all, or if any of these bloody horns actually serve any real purpose.

As for the sphinxes, I associate that with the Citadel.

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. - Samwell V, AFFC

The sphinx is the riddle!

Now it was metal underneath the Crow's Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood.

Iron Throne!

You're welcome.

Euron pushing his separation of church and state agenda.

Later in this chapter we'll learn he's collecting holy men who represent some of these faiths. Fun!

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Mingled with the distant roar of song and celebration coming up from the beach, he'd heard the faint creak of longships settling on the strand. He heard the keening of the wind and now whines. He heard the pounding of the waves, the hammer of his god calling him to battle. And there and then, the Drowned God had come to him once more, his voice welling up from the depths of the sea. "Aeron, my good and faithful servant, you must tell the Ironborn that the Crow's Eye is no true king, that the Seastone Chair by rights belongs to … to … to …" Not Victarion. Victarion had offered himself to the captains and kings but they had spurned him.

Aeron is now recalling the moments that followed the Kingsmoot.

Notice that stutter? Notice how both the Drowned God and Dam-phair struggle to arrive at a definitive answer? It's almost as if this God merely reinforces Dam-phair's own beliefs.

+.+.+

Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved Asha best of all his brother Balon's children. The Drowned God had blessed her with a warrior's spirit and the wisdom of a king – but he had cursed her with a woman's body, too. No woman had ever ruled the Iron Islands. She should never have made a claim. She should have spoken for Victarion, added her own strength to his.

She tried. Unfortunately, she's surrounded by idiots.

"Then let my nuncle sit," Asha said. "I will stand behind you, to guard your back and whisper in your ear. No king can rule alone. Even when the dragons sat the Iron Throne, they had men to help them. The King's Hands. Let me be your Hand, Nuncle."

No King of the Isles had ever needed a Hand, much less one who was a woman. The captains and the kings would mock me in their cups. - The Iron Captain, AFFC

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It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shivered in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its Salt King and its Rock King. Let the Old Way return.

Oh my god. Hahahaha.

Well, I'll say this, that has more chance of happening than Daenerys with Aegon/Jon, or Sansa with her uncle by marriage.

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Aeron Damphair had struggled back to shore, full of fierce resolve. He would bring down Euron, not with sword or axe but with the power of his faith.

I think you're probably going to need the axe.

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"And who are you, child?"

"Falia Flowers, Lord Hewett's natural daughter. I am to be King Euron's salt wife. You and I will be kin, then." Aeron Damphair raised his eyes to hers. His scabbed lips were crusted with wet porridge. "Woman." His chains clinked when he moved. "Run. He will hurt you. He will kill you."

She laughed. "Silly, he won't. I'm his love, his lady. He gives me gifts, so many gifts. Silks and furs and jewels. Rags and rocks, he calls them."

"The Crow's Eye puts no value in such things." That was one of the things that drew men to his service. Most captains kept the lion's share of their plunder but Euron took almost nothing for himself.

"He gives me any gown I want," the girl was prattling happily. "My sisters used to make me wait on them at table, but Euron made them serve the whole hall naked! Why should he do that, except for love of me?" She put a hand on her belly and smoothed down the fabric of her gown.

"I'm going to give him sons. So many sons …"

[...]

"Gone?" That was the cruelest blow of all. "Gone where?"

"East," she said, "with all his ships. He's to bring the dragon queen to Westeros. I'm to be Euron's salt wife, but he must have a rock wife too, a queen to rule all Westeros at his side. They say she's the most beautiful woman in the world, and she has dragons. The two of us will be as close as sisters!"

Sisters?

I don't have the strength or desire to properly comment on any of this.

+.+.+

That night, when the tide came rushing back into the prison cell, he prayed that it might rise all night, enough to end his torment. I have been your true and leal servant, he prayed, twisting in his chains. Now snatch me from my brother's hand, and take me down beneath the waves, to be seated at your side.

Very on brand for a Greyjoy to be wishing for his own death.

This is how I know Victarion murder-suicides.

+.+.+

"It was me who taught you how to pray, little brother. Have you forgotten? I would visit your bed chamber at night when I had too much to drink. You shared a room with Urrigon high up in the seatower. I could hear you praying from outside the door. I always wondered: Were you praying that I would choose you or that I would pass you by?" Euron pressed the knife to Aeron's throat.

There's no reason for me to include this, but it's necessary if you want to get the full Euron experience.

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"Not even you would dare," said the Damphair. "I am your brother. No man is more accursed than the kinslayer."

Somewhere in the world, Victarion's ears are ringing.

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"And yet I wear a crown and you rot in chains. How is it that your Drowned God allows that when I have killed three brothers?" Aeron could only gape at him. "Three?" "Well, if you count half-brothers. Do you remember little Robin? Wretched creature. Do you remember that big head of his, how soft it was? All he could do was mewl and shit. He was my second. Harlon was my first. All I had to do was pinch his nose shut. The greyscale had turned his mouth to stone so he could not cry out. But his eyes grew frantic as he died. They begged me. When the life went out of them, I went out and pissed into the sea, waiting for the god to strike me down. None did. Oh, and Balon was the third, but you knew that. I could not do the deed myself, but it was my hand that pushed him off the bridge."

Am I supposed to be thinking about Sweetrobin?

Take a second to compare the above with whoever the hell this is:

Wild, right? Of all the characters they fucked up, Euron has to be the worst.

Anyway, Euron's gotta meet his end at the hands of a brother. It's just the way it has to be, plain and simple.

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He stepped back and sheathed his dagger. "No, I'll not kill you tonight. A holy man with holy blood. I may have need of that that blood … later. For now, you are condemned to live."

Ouu a sacrifice! Do holy men have special blood?

Good thing Melisandre is at the other end of the continent. We wouldn't want her to get a taste of sweet, poetic justice.

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It was in the second dungeon that the other holy men began to appear to share his torments. Three wore the robes of septons of the green lands, and one the red raiment of a priest of R'hllor. The last was hardly recognizable as a man. Both his hands had been burned down to the bone, and his face was a charred and blackened horror where two blind eyes moved sightlessly above the cracked cheeks dripping pus. He was dead within hours of being shackled to the wall, but the mutes left his body there to ripen for three days afterwards.

Last were two warlocks of the east, with flesh as white as mushrooms, and lips the purplish-blue of a bad bruise, all so gaunt and starved that only skin and bones remained. One had lost his legs. The mutes hung him from a rafter. "Pree," he cried as he swung back and forth. "Pree, Pree!”

Perhaps that was the name of the demon that he worships. The Drowned God protects me, the priest told himself. He is stronger than the false gods these other worship, stronger than their black sorceries. The Drowned God will set me free.

In his saner moments, Aeron questioned why the Crow's Eye was collecting priests, but he did not think that he would like the answer.

Some people collect coins and stamps, and then there's Euron Greyjoy.

Yes, that would be Pyat Pree's little band of warlocks.

Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend's flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat." - The Reaver, AFFC

"Not all your enemies are in the Yellow City. Beware men with cold hearts and blue lips. You had not been gone from Qarth a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out with three of his fellow warlocks, to seek for you in Pentos." - Daenerys III, ADWD

It's so sweet how he kills all her enemies for her.

Side note, it's a bit interesting that Euron had access to a red priest from R'hllor, when the horn he gave Victarion feels like it might have a connection to that faith.

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When Euron came again, his hair was swept straight back from his brow, and his lips were so blue that they were almost black. He had put aside his driftwood crown. In its place, he wore an iron crown whose points were made from the teeth of sharks.

That's kind of cool.

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"Your victories are hollow. You cannot hold the Shields."

"Why should I want to hold them?" His brother's smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. "The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts."

My poor Vicky. Please throw your toy in the sea.

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Euron pulled his head back by the hair and forced the vile liquor into his mouth again. Though Aeron clamped his mouth shut, twisting his head from side to side he fought as best he could, but in the end he had to choke or swallow.

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea.

Wouldn't be Euron if he wasn't sailing on a sea of blood.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood." - Tyrion VIII, ADWD

In a previous chapter, Melisandre also had visions of a blood-red sea, which seemed to hint at the imminent destruction of Oldtown.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. - Melisandre I, ADWD

I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. - Melisandre I, ADWD

I'm sure I don't have to point out the Arbor is right beside Oldtown.

He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles.

Greyjoy kraken things.

Beside him stood a shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Four popular candidates.

Melisandre:

The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. - Jon VI, ADWD

Popular theory solely because of that.

I can't understand why. She's at the Wall, and Euron is more likely to sacrifice her than join forces with her. Honestly, what is it about these chapters that is giving people the impression Euron gives a shit about what a red priestess has to say?

Cersei:

Terrible, tall, pale, and often associated with fire. Can't totally dismiss it, because of what transpired on the show. Plus she wants a fleet as badly as Daenerys does, and would be dumb enough to ally with a Greyjoy to get one. We love Cersei and Daenerys parallels!

My problem is, I don't think Euron wants or needs Cersei Lannister.

Daenerys:

Not long or tall, but certainly terrible. Notable fire lady, and the woman Euron is after. Need I say more?

As much as I love Storm x Storm, Daenerys Targaryen is nobody's sidekick, and it's not going to take much time before these two end up in a war.

Viserion:

The shadowy pale white intersex dragon, who breathes pale golden fire.

But as Brown Ben was leaving, Viserion spread his pale white wings and flapped lazily at his head.

I lied before, Euron's not after Daenerys. This is what Euron truly wants.

If it is Viserion, it would explain why the show felt compelled to give Viserion to a character that doesn't even exist in the books. It would also explain all the foreshadowing that suggests two of Daenerys' dragons will clash.

I'm not completely convinced about this theory, but if any of those dumb horns actually have an effect, my money's on Viserion being the target. And if there's anyone who'd snatch up one of Daenerys' dragons, it's most likely going to be Euron.

Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

Tyrion and Penny.

Kidding. Aegon and Daenerys feels like a safe bet.

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Aeron dreamed of drowning, too. Not of the bliss that would surely follow down in the Drowned God's watery halls, but of the terror that even the faithful feel as the water fills their mouth and nose and lungs, and they cannot draw a breath. Three times the Damphair woke, and three times it proved no true waking, but only another chapter in a dream.

Is it Dam-phair who is drowning? Or is he experiencing Euron's death?

I'm a bit lost on the three times he woke.

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They dragged him up more steps, down a torchlit gallery, and into a bleak stone hall where a dozen bodies were hanging from the rafters, turning and swaying. A dozen of Euron's captains were gathered in the hall, drinking wine beneath the corpses. Left-Hand Lucas Codd sat in the place of honor, wearing a heavy silken tapestry as a cloak. Beside him was the Red Oarsman, and further down Pinchface Jon Myre, Stonehand, and Rogin Salt-Beard.

"Who are these dead?" Aeron commanded. His tongue was so thick the words came out in a rusty whisper, faint as a mouse breaking wind.

"The lord that held this castle, with his kin." The voice belonged to Torwold Browntooth, one of his brother's captains, a creature near as vile as the Crow's Eye himself. "Pigs," said another vile creature, the one they called the Red Oarsman. "This was their isle. A rock, just off the Arbor. They dared oink threats at us. Redwyne, oink. Hightower, oink. Tyrell, oink oink oink! So we sent them squealing down to hell."

We've now reached the Arbor.

As you can see, people are dead. More will join them.

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"Your curses have no power here, priest," said Left-Hand Lucas Codd. "The Crow's Eye has fed your Drowned God well, and he has grown fat with sacrifice. Words are wind, but blood is power. We have given thousands to the sea, and he has given us victories!"

"And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys," said Valena. "The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. [...] - Arianne I, TWOW

Bruh, is this part of his plan? That's crazy, surely not.

Is it??

A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. - Arya IX, ASOS

"In the Seven Kingdoms, there are tales of dragons who grew so huge that they could pluck giant krakens from the seas."

Dany laughed. "That would be a wondrous sight to see." - Daenerys I, ASOS

The next storm could sink or scatter us, a kraken could pull us under . . . - Daenerys I, ASOS

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. - Tyrion III, ASOS

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron's heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath [...] - The Drowned Man, AFFC

Bruh.

🎨 antoniothailan

PLS GEORGE I NEED IT.

+.+.+

"Count yourself blessed, Damphair," said Stonehand. "We are going back to sea. The Redwyne fleet creeps toward us. The winds have been against them rounding Dorne, but they're finally near enough to have emboldened the old women in Oldtown, so now Leyton Hightower's sons move down the Whispering Sound in hopes of catching us in the rear."

Euron appears to be controlling the wind again.

"Do I command the winds?" the Crow's Eye asked his pets.

"No, Your Grace," said Orkwood of Orkmont.

"No man commands the winds," said Germund Botley.

"Would that you did," the Red Oarsman said. "You would sail wherever you liked and never be becalmed."

"There you have it, from the mouths of three brave men," Euron said. - The Iron Captain, AFFC

I wonder if his red priest had something to do with that.

Euron is fully aware of what the Hightower and Redwyne fleets are planning, so they have no hope at all. Even if he were unaware, they still wouldn't stand a chance. Who the hell is Paxter Redwyne? Exactly.

+.+.+

Euron Crow's Eye stood upon the deck of Silence, clad in a suit of black scale armor like nothing Aeron had ever seen before. Dark as smoke it was, but Euron wore it as easily as if it was the thinnest silk. The scales were edged in red gold, and gleamed and shimmered when they moved. Patterns could be seen within the metal, whorls and glyphs and arcane symbols folded into the steel.

Valyrian steel, the Damphair knew. His armor is Valyrian steel. In all the Seven Kingdoms, no man owned a suit of Valyrian steel. Such things had been known 400 years ago, in the days before the Doom, but even then, they would've cost a kingdom.

Euron did not lie. He has been to Valyria. No wonder he was mad.

I bet he looks better in this armour than any pigment-challenged, scrawny, inbred, mole rat-esque Targaryen ever has. How could she resist? He's Drogon in human form.

I'm still on the Reader's side: I don't believe Euron has set foot in Valyria. No clue where he got that snazzy outfit, though. Although, someone ought to let him know that wearing armour on a ship is asking for trouble.

+.+.+

"Your Grace," said Torwold Browntooth. "I have the priests. What do you want done with them?"

"Bind them to the prows," Euron commanded. "My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty."

[...]

They bound Aeron Damphair tight with strips of leather that would shrink when wet, clad only in his beard and breechclout. The Crow's Eye spoke a command; a black sail was raised, lines were cast off, and the Silence backed away from shore to the slow beat of the oarmaster's drum, her oars rising and dipping and rising again, churning the water. Above them, the castle was burning, flames licking from the open windows.

When they were well out to sea, Euron returned to him. "Brother," he said, "you look forlorn. I have a gift for you."

He beckoned, and two of his bastard sons dragged the woman forward and bound her to the prow on the other side of the figurehead. Naked as the mouthless maiden, her smooth belly just beginning to swell with the child she was carrying, her cheeks red with tears, she did not struggle as the boys tightened her bonds. Her hair hung down in front of her face, but Aeron knew her all the same.

"Falia Flowers," he called. "Have courage, girl! All this will be over soon, and we will feast together in the Drowned God's watery halls."

The girl raised up her head, but made no answer. She has no tongue to answer with, the Damphair knew. He licked his lips, and tasted salt.

I continue to have no words for Falia Flowers. Sad stuff.

Looks like Euron is planning a massive blood sacrifice featuring a pregnant woman, and a bunch of priests.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Daenerys sacrifice an unborn child, and a priestess of the Great Shepherd of Lhazar to wake the dragons? Just saying.

Final thoughts:

I'm not convinced anyone on the brink of death could survive being tied to the prow of a ship, but given there wasn't a speck of blood in sight, my guess is we'll be seeing Aeron Dam-phair again.

Next chapter: Theon I

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#operation stumpy re-read #twow #the forsaken #aeron i

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bananacorn-limeade · 6 months

Text

1961's The WORLD of ICE and FIRE

I'm going to do it. I'm going to self-indulge!

The Roger Corman ASOIAF production post is mostly just a novelty, but since I'm me, I have a lot of FEELINGS and OPINIONS about this cast. Naturally.

Anyway. Here's how well I think the actors in my post would play their roles, from worst to best.

#19, Worst: John Ashley as Robb Stark

You know how Ben Affleck has a face that knows about emails? John Ashley has a face that knows about sock hops. Woefully miscast.

#18: Tor Johnson as Gregor Clegane

God love the big guy, but I've only ever seen him make this face. Also, despite his repertoire of roles suggesting otherwise on paper, he just doesn't seem like a mean guy.

#17: John Agar as Jaime Lannister

Another terrible choice. The only reason he's not ranked as worst is because his soulless performance would make viewers interpret Jaime as an absolutely irredeemable sociopath, which at least would be... uh, interesting, I guess.

#16 Robert Reed as Renly Baratheon

Renly, but only if he was the most boring Baratheon. Go ahead, try to picture Reed eating a peach. You can't.

#15 Dawn Bender as Arya Stark

Aw, she'd try. But I feel like her attempts at Arya's fire would mostly come off as petulance.

#14 Richard Carlson as Ned Stark

Sorry, what? I fell asleep for a minute there.

#13 June Kenney as Daenerys Targaryen

Kenney would try her level best, but you know Corman would do a terrible job incorporating her storyline with the main plot, so she wouldn't have much to do except lounge around on mildly offensive orientalist sets and talk to her force-perspective dragon puppets. (Stop-motion you say? What, you think American International is made of money?)

#12 Dolores Faith as Sansa Stark

Again, no knock to Faith, but as with Daenerys, I think a 1961 production would flatten Sansa's character away to nothing. She'd get to pine and wear some nice dresses.

#11 Anthony Dexter as Petyr Baelish

This guy can play oily like nobody's business (check him out in 1962's Married Too Young), but 5D-chess-level deviousness might be beyond him.

#10 Michael Dunn as Tyrion Lannister

Full disclosure: I'm plopping him in the middle because I've never seen him in anything! The only little person I've personally seen in Corman's movies is Billy Barty (playing an actual, literal imp), and Dunn was someone I found who was said to play much meatier roles. In general, I think the depth of Tyrion's character would seriously challenge 1960s casting directors who were used to casting little people in jokey roles or as something less than human. One of many problems they'd have with the source material, no doubt.

#9 Lon Cheney Jr. as Sandor Clegane

Here's another actor who would do the best with what he was given - which would be an essentially empty role. This Sandor would be a beast used only for jump scares, with too much rubber over his face to ever show an emotion.

#8 Glen Langan as Stannis Baratheon

Langan would be serious, but dull, with lots of droning sermonizing. In other words, perfect. Still boring though.

#7 Basil Rathbone as Tywin Lannister

Who better to play a role totally owned by Charles Dance than an actor who's even Charles Dancier? The only reason I'm not ranking this legend higher is because I do think he'd kind of sleepwalk through this role, especially at this stage in his career.

#6 Raymond Burr as Robert Baratheon

The future Mr. Perry Mason was damn good at playing hard-drinking, prowly, "beastly" men. See him in this fabulous trailer for 1951's Bride of the Gorilla (spoiler: Burr is the gorilla). Of course, for this production, he'd be about 10 years on from that virile role, but that's perfectly on brand for Bobby B.

#5 Michael Landon as Jon Snow

Landon's tortured James Dean era would be a great fit for angsty goth teen Jon, though he might have trouble keeping his feelings as hidden as Jon does.

#4 Allison Hayes as Melisandre

Should she be ranked this high? Eh, maybe not, but this woman is a goddamn B-movie bombshell goddess. Her Red Woman would be a little less mysterious, sure, but her perfectly arched eyebrows and bullet bra would do R'hllor proud all the same.

#3 Marie Windsor as Catelyn Stark

They didn't call her Queen of the B's for nothing. Windsor always did great with roles that call for strength and verve. She'd be a fantastic Cat, and - dare I dream it - an even better Lady Stoneheart.

#2 Jack Nicholson as Theon Greyjoy

Now this would be fun. If baby Jack Nicholson had half the presence and charisma he would show in later movies, his Theon would be legendary.

#1 Coleen Gray as Cersei Lannister

If I can get Tumblr to understand one thing, it's how much Coleen Gray would absolutely eat in the role of Cersei. She's beautiful. She's a schemer. She's a helpless victim. She's back for revenge. I challenge anyone to watch her insane, murderous, fierce, gorgeous, duplicitous performance in 1960's otherwise pretty terrible The Leech Woman and not come to the same conclusion. I'm serious. There would be no survivors. 👑

#asoiaf fan cast #old movies #mst3k #mystery science theater 3000 #rifftrax #asoiaf shitpost #asoiaf meme #b movies #roger corman #cersei lannister #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #tywin lannister #sansa stark #robert baratheon #stannis baratheon #renly baratheon #asoiaf

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jackoshadows · 4 months

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There's a reason ADwD is seen as the Jonrya bible and, if anything, looking at the changes from original drafts of AFfC/ADwD it almost feels like GRRM doubled down on the Jon/Arya relationship in the published book.

The leaked drafts have given us a glimpse into how some of the stories for characters have changed from early versions.

Notably, Davos was always involved in the retrieval of a Stark. While it was Arya in the early drafts, in the book it is Rickon Stark. I had written earlier on how Rickon was always meant to be with House Manderly and with Davos' story changing that meant Rickon's story also changed.

The Arya/Ramsay wedding also takes place at Barrowton. While it would have been super fun to see Theon and Davos from each other's POV, I like the changed version with the wedding at Winterfell and reading that entire story from Theon's POV is some of the best writing in ADwD. And with Davos and Theon's story changing, the North plot has clearly evolved from what it was originally.

Which brings me to these farcical Jonsa theories which are always based off of the Jon/Arya relationship - from Jon's thoughts of Arya being subconsciously about Sansa to Jon is actually referring to Sansa when he talks of Arya to Jon is pretending to admire and love girls like Arya when he is really attracted to girls like Sansa etc.

One of the most egregious of these theories is when they use the OG leaked outline to argue that GRRM replaced one Stark sister with the other (since apparently these two very different characters are so interchangeable!) because he was supposedly so 'charmed' by the character of Sansa.

Contrary to this nonsense theory, what the draft changes actually tells me is that not only has GRRM not given OG outline's Arya to Sansa - which most sensible readers have already known - but he has in fact changed the story to strengthen the Jon/Arya bond in ADwD!

Jonsas keep pointing to the Sansa/Tyrion marriage for their theory that GRRM replaced Arya with Sansa in the OG outline. Except, if GRRM was interested in building up any kind of love triangle between Tyrion/Sansa/Jon then ADwD would be where he would have written Jon Snow show some emotion after being made aware of the marriage.

What we did end up getting, however, is Jon's utter anger and desperation on hearing about Arya's marriage contrasted with the utter nonchalance and indifference towards the Sansa/Tyrion marriage. Forget heavy emotion and passionate anger, GRRM couldn't even be bothered to write a few lines where Jon Snow shows some slight brotherly concern for a sister forcefully married off and her current whereabouts.

We got nothing, nada, zilch. Even Brienne, who has never even met Sansa, has showed more concern and worry for Sansa than Jon Snow has done. There's no outrage or emotion when Stannis tells him that Sansa will never get Winterfell on account of this marriage and instead Jon even suggests Mors Crowfood as a possible alternate as Lord of Winterfell.

Given all the changes in these early 2003/2004 drafts for AFfC/ADwD/TWoW and given ADwD was finished in 2011, if GRRM had indeed decided to switch Jonrya with Jonsa, surely we would have seen the hints and the difference in Jon's thoughts wrt Sansa? We get none of that. Indeed, Sansa is a complete non factor in Jon Snow's story, his arc from the start to the end of ADwD, his theme of Love Vs Duty and the human heart in conflict with itself.

There's also been some speculation that, in the early draft, Jon Snow actually does end up leaving for Hardhome and this is where the assassination/mutiny happens.

Several other clues in these early drafts point to this conclusion. For ex. Melisandre's visions point to Jon Snow being stabbed to death - 'daggers in the dark' - while on a ranging.

It feels like the original assassination happens because of Jon's helping the Freefolk and the fear of him being a warg - there are references to Jon being referred to as a beastling by Slynt.

So it looks like in the early drafts Jon Snow leads a mission to Hardhome and that's where his story ends with assassination and death.

Also interesting in the bits that were cut out is Ghost sensing Summer beyond the Wall and wanting to go North. In the published book, Ghost cannot sense Summer anymore because of the Wall.

Deleted para:

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother had gone, the grey brother who smelled of summer. With the cliff between them, he could not sense his brother, but sometimes when he padded down the long cold burrow under the ice and poked his nose through the hard black bars, he could feel him. The snow was falling where his brother was, covering all the woods in white. And there were hunters near, living men and dead men, and the ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold.

And another deleted paragraph when Edd wakes up Jon.

He glanced to the foot of the bed. The rug where Ghost slept was empty. The big white direwolf came and went as he would, often for days at a time. He is looking for some way through the wall, he thought, uneasily, and somehow he knows that Grey Wind is gone, and Robb as well.

Three things stand out in the early draft.

Ghost can sense Summer beyond the Wall through areas where the Wall seems broken.

Ghost wants to go North beyond the Wall

Ghost can sense Bran being hunted by the dead

If Jon had been killed in Hardhome then I think Jon warged into Ghost would have gone towards Bran and saves Summer/Bran from the dead hunters hunting them in a reversal of when Summer saved Jon. We also would have possibly got an exploration of the Lands of Always Winter through Ghost!Jon's POV. [No idea how Jon gets resurrected in this version though. Maybe Bran is involved and they return to Hardhome and Jon's body? Maybe they all return to the Wall together...]

However, I think the changes in the published book means we are not getting all this. Jon never ends up going to Hardhome in ADwD. Why? The Pink Letter.

In the published book, it's the King Beyond the Wall - not Davos - who goes disguised as Abel the Bard (A play on Bael the Bard regarding whom Mance and Jon have a conversation) with a mission to steal a Stark girl out of Winterfell for Jon Snow. This leads to a set of circumstances where Theon escapes with Jeyne Poole, which in turn leads to the Pink Letter.

The Letter accuses Jon Snow of 'stealing' Ramsay's Bride. In Freefolk culture, one has to steal one's future bride or lover. Ygritte informs Jon that he has stolen her and Ser Patrek ends up dying - killed by Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun - when he tries to 'steal' Val.

Additionally, in ADwD, the straw that breaks the camel's back for the assassins is not Jon Snow helping the Freefolk or being a warg, but his breaking of sworn oaths, him choosing love over duty, Arya over the Night's Watch.

It feels to me that, far from moving away from the Jon/Arya relationship in the OG outline, GRRM has infact changed early drafts to focus back on the Jon/Arya bond in ADwD, changing Jon's story at the Wall to heavily include Arya. From Abel the Bard to 'I want my Bride back, I want my Bride back, I want my Bride back' to 'We had best change the plans' the published book now sets up a Jon Vs Ramsay conflict over Arya Stark, pivoting Jon's story towards the south and Arya rather than towards the North and Bran.

It is still possible that we get Ghost!Jon leaving for beyond the Wall and exploring the Lands of Always Winter etc. However I no longer think this is happening given time constraints. With two books left and so much story still pending there is just not enough time for Ghost!Jon to do all that and get resurrected and then participate in what's happening in Winterfell. Bran will have to deal with that part of the story by himself.

So, coming back to my point. I do think it's hilarious how Jonsa shippers keep insisting that GRRM just suddenly decided that Sansa will get all of Arya's OG plots, relationships and narrative importance, and replace Jonrya with Jonsa. When, looking at his early AFfC/ADwD/TWoW drafts, it feels more like he actually changed the story to have Jon's assassination revolve around his presumed 'stealing' of Arya and oathbreaking to go save her.

#Jon Snow #Arya Stark #GRRM #Jonrya #Jonarya #AFfC #ADwD #jon x arya

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esther-dot · 4 months

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I was reading your comments about Jon's chivalry and protecting the vulnerable. This all brought to mind Jon's TV ending of stabbing Dany in the heart while kissing her. While we don't know whether or not this version of Dany's end is close to what will be the written version, it seems as though it's possible in part because of the Nissa Nissa legend. Jon doing that in the books (or something like it) would align with the Azor Ahai story, but in a warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends). But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe. I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

(about this ask)

I'm so sorry that it's taken me this long to respond! I have finally reread some pertinent chapters to situate my thoughts.

First, I just want to acknowledge how upsetting this spec is to some, and remind everyone, no one wants this ending. We all think it's gross, we're just discussing the possibility, not merely because of the show, because it's an old theory. I looked around and saw posts about this starting in 2013 by Dany fans. So, the presence of this myth is substantial enough, even BNFs/Jonerys shippers felt like it had a strong chance of manifesting (although they believe Dany would willingly sacrifice herself) well before D&D committed their fuckery. I suppose all that answers your question. Man killing his lover is a gross trope, being forced to kill a loved one to save the world is overused, so now, I can't imagine anyone reading it and being happy about it.

In trying to look at the context in-canon Martin has created, he's taken it out of the strict man kills lover idea of the AA/NN myth, and is discussing the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to a god which fans have already compared to myth, Stannis & Shireen = Agamemnon & Iphigeneia. This sacrifice hasn't happened yet, but it's been confirmed as a Martin plot point. Stannis is already burning people alive, justifying kid killing, and Davos has already planted the Stannis=AA, kid=NN idea:

Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? (ASOS, Davos V)

Although, rather than this being a justified death, the fans will be horrified as we're meant to be. Davos' thoughts call into question the idea of killing another for your "magic sword":

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay. (ACOK, Davos I)

and Martin impresses upon us the value of each life:

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ." "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V)

The talk of greater good/killing kids reminds me of AGOT in which Ned's story is inundated with the topic of child murder/protecting kids. We have Mycah, his memories of Aegon and Rhaenys, his promise to protect Jon, his guilt over his lies and treason bubbling up repeatedly, his fight against the assassination of Dany, his attempt to save Cersei's children from Robert...we all know, kid killing is wrong according to Martin, so we've already been told that this wannabe AA's actions are contemptible. The myth in which the sacrifice is happy to die, that sacrificing someone is heroic, it's being contradicted by what we're being shown in the Stannis storyline.

Now, while Stannis is being declared Azor Ahai, we're constantly being told he isn't. Jon calls the act a mummer's farce and comments on his cold sword and that is right before a Dany chapter, so the idea is, Dany is actually AA. @trinuviel is the first person I saw lay out the argument for that and contend that being AA is a bad thing (meta parts 1, 2, 3). People have said that Drogo kinda becomes her Nissa Nissa in that scenario. She burns him to get the dragons, and what are the dragons called?

"When I went to the Hall of a Thousand Thrones to beg the Pureborn for your life, I said that you were no more than a child," Xaro went on, "but Egon Emeros the Exquisite rose and said, 'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." He wiped away the tears. "I should have slain you in Qarth." (ADWD, Daenerys III)

That kinda makes us think, oh, the myth already has a canon counterpart, don't need to worry about it anymore. Only, we've also said Rhaegar impregnating a young Lyanna could be read as a play on Nissa Nissa, with him risking her life to get the prophecy baby, otherwise known as the third head of the dragon. And Jon is not only a kind of dragon, he repeatedly intones that fun little phrase about being a sword, and sometimes, that happens within an interesting context (for speculation purposes):

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. (ADWD, Jon VIII)

So, although there is one character that seems to be Azor Ahai (Dany), I am definitely open to the myth manifesting, or rather, being examined from multiple angles. IMO, that's what Martin is doing and we can use each variation to reassess what he's saying with it. We have Dany and Drogo (the official one/successful one), Rhaegar and Lyanna (not AA, but Jon is born), Stannis and Edric (denied), Stannis and Shireen (he will kill Shireen, but we don't know if he'll get what he wants and we do know he isn't AA)... lots of pics of a similar idea. To emphasize Stannis not being the dude and Dany being the "real" AA, we have that Jon passage and chapter transition:

Even though we have lots of contenders and commentary about this myth with the canon characters, none of it romanticizes human sacrifice, and all works towards the twist that what is said to be a hero/the weapon that will save people brings destruction. If we look back at it critically, Dany has a habit of accepting, or even causing, the suffering of others for her greater good, including sacrificing Mirri to get her dragons. We might even argue that Mirri is a Nissa Nissa for her, as Dany had taken Mirri under her protection before killing her to get dragons.

That being said, even though we're getting told this shit is bad in canon, the indictment of killing innocents and people who depend on you to protect them, it wouldn’t apply if someone were to kill Stannis or Dany. It isn’t on the same moral level as killing a child, or a spouse who loves and trusts you. It isn't the same as invading and then killing people who won't worship your god or accept you as a leader. It isn't the same as killing a slave, simply because, when their times come, Dany and Stannis will be guilty. After their actions, it would be justice for them to die. I think why other parts of the fandom entertain the idea of Dany as NN while also condemning us for entertaining it, is that Dany's vision does have her being grasped at by hands of her "children" and fans have this idea that she is sacrificing herself/her happiness for the greater good already, and in the AA/Nissa Nissa story, it does sound like she offers herself willingly for the tempering of the sword. So to them, it’s part of Dany’s heroism. Dany's death is inevitable to some, at the hands of Jon is ok, but her not dying a hero, that's unacceptable.

But thinking about how it's been discussed thus far, I can't imagine we're gonna get a romanticized version of the AA/NN myth in canon when so far, it's pretty dark/condemned. None of that precludes Jon killing Dany in what you described as a:

warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends).

which really sticks out to me as the important part of all this.

The idea that Jon might do it and characters recognize it as a tragic love story a la the myth, that fascinates me because of how Martin has written wild rumors into the story (rumors about Dany, Robb, and Sansa spring to mind), and some of us have written reality and what the public thinks into fic as two distinct things because it feels like a potential way the story might go. What is widely known to be true, like say, Jon being Ned's bastard, may not be the truth that we the readers come to know. There's no guarantee that Westeros will know what the readers know about past or future events. We may get a take on AA/NN, the characters in-world may not understand it the same way.

Jon is undeniably a hero, in a world where institutional corruption is rampant and ideals abandoned, he’s a standout in his values. We would expect, and we find, contrasts between him and these other characters (Dany, Rhaegar, Stannis), primarily, his practical actions that are about saving life/protecting life, even from Stannis, so the idea that he would abandon certain values, it's a tough one. The difference is, while Stannis, Rhaegar, and Dany were acting on these prophecies or visions or dreams, things we're repeatedly warned against trusting in the text, Jon would be taking action based on the fact that Dany is a mass-murderer, a threat to all of Westeros. It isn't a sacrifice to an unknown god for some promised mystical good, it's justice. The religious fanaticism wouldn't be a factor, the killing of an innocent wouldn't be a factor, killing a child wouldn't be a factor, killing to achieve a self-serving end wouldn't be a factor. All the things that have been criticized thus far aren't at play.

The moral quandary presented to the audience in AGOT is killing someone who might be a threat, but is a child at the moment, and Martin presents the sneaky assassination / child killing as abhorrent:

Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?" "Kinder," Varys said. "Oh, well and truly spoken, Grand Maester. It is so true. Should the gods in their caprice grant Daenerys Targaryen a son, the realm must bleed." Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it." "Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast. "A steel kiss," said Littlefinger. (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

which is all interesting context for Dany later being assassinated, especially because the first lesson Martin gives us on justice is one that Jon is there for, and then is reiterated in relation to Dany:

Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least." (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

The convo about killing Dany with LF is about a bedding and before that it was presented in terms of a wedding gift, which makes me squint now knowing the AA/NN stuff:

Yes, it's awful, and I do understand, almost agree with you here:

But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe.

but the way it might tie together the initial discussion of killing Dany and the eventual act weighs heavily with me when determining what Martin might do and why/why not.

The other suggestion is that Arya kills Dany. If having dragons is Chechov's gun for KL burning then Arya being a trained assassin feels like a Chechov's gun for killing Dany. But in that scenario, there is no conflict. No inner struggle. We spent so much of AGOT weighing the morals of killing Dany, it's hard for me to believe when the time comes, it's presented without any moral complexity. Arya is already able and willing to take a life, even when it isn't justified. It doesn't feel right to me that killing Dany would be a presented without an inner struggle, that it would be done easily, as easily as Arya now kills. TBH, it removes the drama if someone other than Jon does it because it will be so highly necessary and just when the time comes. Jon is really the only character who can make it squeamish because of the guy killing a woman thing and because it will be kinslaying.

There is a lot of talk about poison, so I think it's totally possible Arya tries to kill Dany with poison first, but I think Jon is more likely to be the one to successfully kill her, and in a way that calls to mind Ned's opinion on it, See her tears, hear her last words. That would allow Martin to make sure we see it as just/moral, bring home the Targ v Targ issue, and it shades Ned's decisions and values in a very interesting way.

After s8 fans said Ned was wrong to fight against killing Dany in s1, but Martin thinks he was right to object to killing children, so for the two Targ children he was protecting in AGOT (Dany and Jon) to come face to face and one kill the other prevents the conclusion that Ned was wrong. It was the same mercy, the same refusal to see the child of an enemy as an enemy, that saved the boy who will in turn save Westeros. IMO, it's a way to uphold the belief in mercy. I tend to think it’s also Martin’s way of addressing one his questions about his beloved LOTR (what about orc babies etc).

If another person ends Dany, we still get dead Dany, but it doesn't say anything interesting? Killing her wouldn't be a sacrifice on anyone else's part, she won’t be loved and she has to go. But, Jon, who so desperately wants to have honor, if he kills her, it's right as well as an egregious "sin." Ned dishonors himself to protect Sansa (and obvy was committing treason to protect Jon), it feels like coming full circle for Jon, who so wants to be worthy of being a son to Ned to follow his path there too. Also, one thing I expect we’ll keep tracking is kinslaying. Kinslaying comes up with the AA/Nissa Nissa issue in the Stannis storyline, so I do expect that to be addressed in Jon chapters:

We have the whole baby switch to assure us, Jon values human life a great deal. All the same, that involves a moment of cruelty on Jon's side, so Martin isn't interested in keeping him perfectly pure. He likes those moments where doing the right thing is very difficult, even compromising in some way. It's why, while we say Ned committing treason for Jon is a no brainer, Martin writes Ned tortured by it. He likes the inner turmoil over decisions, placing a societal good (honor) against another obligation or ideal and asking what is right.

I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

Despite all the ways I think it makes sense, yes, I def think this is one of those areas that if he had finished the series as quickly as he'd hoped, would have gone over better. Dany has dragons, therefore, she will be an overwhelming threat to Westeros, so it isn't like Jon will just randomly kill a woman, yet it's distasteful all the same. Martin is looking at things from the context of his story and the ideas he’s already introduced/talking about though which is why I can wince but kinda understand it. There are other issues where my sensibilities diverge from his, so didn’t like it on the show, I don’t like it for the books, still think it’s probably gonna happen. 🤷🏻‍♀️

#dot chat #anti daenerys #anti jonerys #azor ahai #jon snow #asoiaf speculation #anti rhaegar #anti stannis

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lovelyladyabsinthewrites · 6 months

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From the Ashes Pt. 21

Pairing(s): Pairing(s): Rhaegar Targaryen x Lannister!Reader, one-sided!Jaime Lannister x Lannister!Reader, Jaime Lannister x Cersei Lannister

Warnings: slow burn fic, changing povs, MC POV, darkin powers, took the idea of darkin from Jay Kristoff's Nevernight Trilogy, it's a super good series that has been my favorite for years

Words: 3033

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 3.5 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Part 19 Part 20 Part 22 Part 23 Part 24 Part 25 Part 26 Part 27 Part 28 Part 29 Part 30 Part 31 Part 32 Part 33 Part 34 Part 35

Book Two of Dārilaros hen ōrbar se perzys (Heir of Ash and Fire)

As Weles had taught you, you didn’t take your eyes off of your opponent. When you first met him back in Volon Therys, there was plenty of fear in you. Having spent nearly a year in the Red Temple you didn’t fear this darkin. You were angry.

“How shameful for one of your kind to dare attack Azor Ahai reborn.” Melisandre reprimands him although it slid easily off of the darkin. “Have you no dignity, darkling?”

“Aye I have dignity. Dignity regarding my title as the best assassin in all of the world.” Even though he addresses Melisandre, that one single eye of his continues to stare you down. Lifting up a black blade, you realized it wasn’t a sword at all; rather a large dagger. “That little one poses a threat to it.”

Red brows furrow and for once Melisandre’s voice held no alluring sweetness. “She is your champion. Mind your tongue.” She makes a move to step forward, perhaps show him her own skills with shadows, but a gentle hand holds her still.

When Alizah speaks, a chill creeps up through everyone. Including yourself. Alizah had such a strange power in her voice. The sparkling night sky were no longer shining. Instead they became a dark void of prophecy. “Inniros Orelelion.”

Finally the darkin tears his eye away from you to glare at Alizah.

Hands folded politely in front of her, Alizah smiles. “You don’t have to do this. All of this pain and death can end here. There is still light inside of you. Please don’t get rid of it. (y/n) can help you reach true glory if you give her a chance.”

Words couldn’t reach Inniros though. “I’ve never failed and refuse to do so now.”

While he was distracted, you took the opportunity to adjust the hilt in your hand and strike. Barely enough time to react, a slice of red blooms on Inniros’ cheek. The slice was enough to render his mask useless as it hangs by a thread before completely falling off his face. A long narrow face like that of a ghost greeted you. His shadows still held Jaime hostage as he reacted to each swing of your sword. Slithering shadows tried to hold you down as well, but you weren’t falling for that again. Light on your feet, you tried not to stay in one place for too long. You knew this would exhaust you if you kept up with it for too long, but it was the only thing that guaranteed that you wouldn’t succumb to his shadowbinding. Weles had spent hours training you on how to move like a feather in the breeze. He was watching now and you would not fail him. The remaining Fiery Hands watched quietly. They knew the darkin was your’s. This was the real test. No one dared to interrupt you.

The good thing about Jaime being held down was that the darkin couldn’t slip into the shadows. He couldn’t do both. Good.

A jab nearing your face as you flip backwards to get away, never releasing Lightbringer from your grasp. You landed gracefully on the balls of your feet but didn’t have enough time to catch your breath as Inniros was at your heels. He was fast.

Valyrian steel slid along his obsidian dagger, they hissed in unison. “Who sent you?”

He didn’t answer as he was able to push you back to the ground. You hopped back up and sliced at him, repeating your question. “Who sent you to kill me?”

Your hands trembled much to your dismay. The adrenaline you were experiencing was overwhelming. Either that or something was waking up inside of you. Unfurling its wings and opening reptilian eyes. The singing of blades was such a loud song, rousing awake something so primal that you couldn’t explain what you were feeling. You remember your days in King’s Landing and the visits you had in your dreams with the Warrior. You felt her power and energy. It was linked to the creature waking up inside of you.

Translating to your sword, you began to push. The sound of cracking made Inniros glance at his blade. Nothing was a match against pure Valyrian steel. Realizing he was in danger, Inniros bounces back which allowed you to advance forward. Even you could see the large crack in the obsidian that began to splinter through the rest of his dagger. The only weapon he would have left would be his shadows. Both of you knew that as you glare eachother down. He could release Jaime and flee into his shadow, or continue to fight you and gamble his life.

There was clear frustration on his face as he failed to pin you down by your own shadow. Hopping around was making you tired and you worried you wouldn’t be able to keep up until the fight was over. You had never fought so fiercely before. Inniros took the chance and used the last leg of his dagger. Swatting it away like a pesky fly, it shattered. Shards nick at his hands and fall to the ground. If this was any other sparring fight, he would concede defeat. He knew it was over. He had no other way to fight besides his shadows which had failed to capture you.

That’s when Jaime shouted “What the hell?!!”

Before your eyes you watched the darkin’s body be enveloped by darkness, disappearing and pulling Jaime with him.

You ran. “Oh no you don’t! You’re not getting away this time!!” You didn’t know what you were going to do to stop him, but you knew that you would not let him take your brother.

Inniros’ shadow was receding, but slowly. Clenching your jaw, you viciously stab at the shadow. Inniros gasps and is spat back out, Jaime is released and falls forward.

You should have finished him off right then and there. But you were too distracted by the flames that were suddenly engulfing your sword. Even Inniros didn’t try to escape. He stared intently at almost in pure horror. Or perhaps it was awe. Ears numb to the people shouting around you, all you were focused on was Lightbringer on fire. Holding it up, the flames refused to die. The heat from it didn’t bother you; in fact it warmed you to your core. Such a familiar sensation, like an old friend.

Sitting on the ground stunned, Inniros doesn’t move as the Fiery Hand crowds around him.

Melisandre makes her way over to him. Triumph in her smile. “Did I not tell you, darkling? Whether you like it or not, she is Azor Ahai; your champion. Darkin live to serve. Your powers are nothing, you would be nothing if not for her.”

“Kill him.” Iyan growls. “He is a danger and needs to be executed.”

On wobbly legs, Jaime stands. “I agree. He killed Feichin. Killed many other good men as if. . . as if they were nothing.”

“Let one of us kill him before he escapes again, ñuha kosh” A Fiery Hand spoke, getting to one knee in front of you. “Do not waste Lightbringer on the likes of him.”

Weles looks to you, not offering any help. “Issa aōha iderennon.”

It’s your choice.

He should be killed. He was indeed a great risk if you kept him alive. Looking at the darkin now, Inniros appeared exhausted and drained. Now you could see his other eye. Or what should have been his other eye. Instead there’s just an empty eye socket. There was now humanity you saw within Inniros. Whatever led him down this path hadn’t been his first choice. In that frozen blue eye of his, you saw a scared little boy before a terrible master that turned him into a monster.

“Chain him and bring him back to the temple.”

Not a very popular decision. Vidarr straightened his back. “I don’t want to disagree with your choice, ñuha kosh, but you can’t let him live.”

“He will kill you the moment you turn your back.” Dritan agreed. He grabbed Inniros’ red hair and pulled his head back, moon blade pressed against Inniros’ throat. “I can do it, ñuha kosh. Please give me the honor.”

It didn’t feel right though. You knew Weles was awaiting your words. Even if you had defeated him, did you have it in you to kill this man? To take a life was not an easy thing. Even though you were still angry that the darkin dared to harm your brother, you couldn’t muster up enough hate to swing your fiery sword.

You swallowed and with that the flames that had been running up and down your sword subsided. The fire was gone in you. “Put your blade down, Dritan.”

“But-”

A silencing glare from Weles has Dritan lowering his head and releasing Inniros.

“Clearly he was sent by someone to kill me and take my brother. It won’t end with his death. Whoever it is will keep trying to kill me. We need to get down to the truth.” Putting Lightbringer back into its sheath, you look over your shoulder at the mess behind you. Besides Feichin there were three dead Fiery Hands. You couldn’t bare to look at Feichin’s lifeless body. It would make you remember all the laughter he had brought into your life. “I will get down to the truth. After that. . .” After that could you possibly entertain the idea of executing him? If you were like your father, you could easily do it without wasting sleep. Tywin brought the law down on any tyrant that threatened him.

You felt just as drained as Inniros. Jaime notices and goes to your side. He pats your head and wipes off blood that was on your brow. “You’re injured.”

Since the adrenaline was wearing off, you were starting to feel the pain and soreness of your body. You hadn’t realized that Inniros had been able to get to you. Sweat makes the cut on your brow sting and produces more blood. The hand you had hurt while fighting Weles ached as you stretched your fingers. There was also a sickening pain that was starting to arise in your side.

Taking control of the situation, Jaime nods and turns to his comrades. “Fetch a wagon so we can bring back the dead and give them a proper burial. Someone go to the blacksmith and have him procure chains for the darkin. (y/n), you might want to keep your sword out and ready if he decides to make a run for it.”

Yophiel took it upon him to hold down the darkin as he was the largest of the Fiery Hand. You did as Jaime said and just hovered near Inniros with Lightbringer in your aching hand.

The walk back to the Red Temple was near impossible for you had it not been for Jaime who put you on his back and carried you the rest of the way. People in the streets stare with curiosity at your small group. More particularly they wanted to know why there was someone in chains and a bag over their head. Vidarr sat in the back of the wagon which held the slain. Iyan walked beside the wagon, singing the funeral rights for his brothers. His voice was beautiful and so sad that you found yourself crying on Jaime’s back. The tears stained his robes as you clung to him. Jaime pretended not to notice that you were crying, giving you that bit of privacy.

Immediately when you crossed the bridge, there were many of the red priests and priestesses awaiting your return. The rest of the Fiery Hand were there as well, hearing the grieving hymn from Iyan. They knelt down in respect as your party passed.

In no time you were taken off of Jaime’s back and treated for your wounds. An old friend, milk of the poppy, was offered to you and before you could even blink you were out cold.

There was no rest in your slumber. Fitful and full of dark shadows that you were able to slice away with a flaming Lightbringer. Only. . . It was the Warrior.

She smiles at you. “Do you know who I am now?”

You couldn’t speak as she held her hand out to you.

“It’s okay. You’re ready now.” for the first time she was gentle with you. “Say my name. You know it.”

Your hand disappears into the Warrior’s. “Your name. . .” Flicking your eyes up at her you knew. Her own green pools reflected back. “(y/n).”

She smiles and wraps her arms around you in a hug. Overhead there is a shriek and the flap of wings. Whispering into your ear, you could feel her smile. “She is on the way. She awaits for you.”

“Who?”

“(y/n)?”

A voice from the outside stirs you from your foggy sleep. A struggle to open your eyes to find Jaime sitting right next to you. He grins and you can’t help but smile.

“Jaime. . .” voice hoarse, you run your tongue over your dry lips.

“How are you feeling?” His thumb runs over the bandage on your head, knowing that below there were stitches. He could feel the bumps of the thread that was used. More than likely you couldn’t feel a thing. The red priests had medicated you heavily, worried that you would be in too much pain.

You felt nothing except for the stuffing in your head. “Okay. How long have I been out for?”

“Not long. A day perhaps.” From your bedside table, Jaime retrieves a cup of water. “I told them you didn’t need that much milk of the poppy.”

Grateful for the gesture, your brother helps you sit up as you take small sips. “Inniros?”

“Surprisingly he’s still in his cell. Hasn’t said a word but he’s still there. Suppose that’s all that matters. Melisandre has taken it upon herself to be guard over him. Even the red priestesses want his head on a spike. And word has spread through the whole temple about Lightbringer bursting into flames. If there were any skepticals left, they’re all gone now. The High Priest has blessed your sword and praised the blacksmith for such a fine job. He has been rewarded greatly.”

His mood dampens when in a quieter tone he tells you about the Fiery Hands that had died. As was ritual, a funeral pyre was made for them and they were burned. They died in the line of duty and were given the utmost respect. Regret was quick to fill you that you couldn’t attend the ceremony. They died protecting you. Everyone understood though. A lot had happened to you that day.

Something stirs in the corner of your room, on the other side of your bed. You turn and Rhiannon is slumped in a chair rubbing at her eyes. She grumbles something at Jaime which neither of you could decipher. There’s relief when she fully wakes. “My lady.”

“Rhiannon.” you smile. “Have you been here this entire time?”

She nods and gets up. “Yes. Jaime was supposed to have woken me up.”

“You stayed up with her all night. I figured you could use the rest.” He shrugged.

Giving Jaime a stink face, Rhiannon pushes him out of the way to peel back your blanket. “I need to check the wound on your side, my lady. Something Jaime should have done when you woke.” Her touch is like a feather as they gingerly tug at your bandages.

There’s a dull soreness in your side as she examines your wound. Her furrowed brow told you all you needed to know of the extent of it. More than likely it would leave a scar.

That was fine by you. Each scar would be a medal for you. You survived a fight with a darkin. Not many could say that.

Instructing Jaime to bring her a basket filled with equipment, Rhiannon begins to redress your wound. She hums quietly until you ask her “Where is Lightbringer?”

Knowing exactly where it was, he ventures over to where your dresser was and opens the doors. Latched to the other side of one door was Lightbringer. “The High Priest wanted to put it somewhere safely. He thinks if other people knew of its power-”

“Not its power.” Rhiannon corrected him. “The sword holds no power. It all comes from (y/n).”

That’s right. Once you felt the fire inside of you dwindle, the fire from the sword was extinguished. When your wounds healed you would have to try again.

“Regardless, its made from Valyrian steel. There are only a handful of Valyrian swords out there in the world. And you possess one of them.”

Your body prickles to life when Rhiannon applies a cleansing wash on your side. Squeezing your eyes closed and grimacing, you barely manage to keep in a hiss. Your brother is by your side in an instant, holding your clenched hand. Relaxing your fingers, you take a deep breath; letting the sting subside.

Gazing up at him, you smile at Jaime. He returns it and kisses your knuckles. You would allow yourself to relish in this moment.

“My lady.”

A new voice in your room, the three of you turn. Vidarr and Sirvart stand in your doorway. Each bows when they have caught your attention.

“Our apologies.” Vidarr says. “But we have been informed to let you know that once you are able to stand, your presence is requested in the dungeons. The darkin insists he will not talk to anyone except for Azor Ahai.”

It was time.

You nod and Rhiannon finishes putting a new bandage on you. Jaime helps you up to your feet. “Send for Innana. I will need help getting dressed.”

Worry is laced in Vidarr’s voice. “Are you sure you’re well enough?”

His worry makes Sirvart laugh. “We have no need to worry about her any longer. It’s clear she can take care of herself.”

Beaming at Sirvart you realize she spoke the truth. And now everyone knew it too. You weren’t that bumbling little girl. You were a warrior.

A champion.

Taglist:

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@domoron

@yentroucnagol

@enchantingcupcakecollectionfan

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jozor-johai · 2 months

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In regards to the "green magic" versus "fire magic," of ASOIAF, I'm haunted by that quote from Mel's chapter where she sees Bloodraven and Bran.

"Was this the enemy?" she asks... but she also almost mistakes him for Stannis at first. It's one of those moments I really overanalyze. I feel like I'm trying to get into George's head.

There's a part of me that thinks: Melisandre doesn't have the best track record for interpreting her otherwise-accurate visions, so when she asks "was this the enemy?" is she wrong, and this is a vision afforded in response to her request to see R'hllor's agent? Especially because she thinks he's Stannis?

But there's a part of me which wonders: is she right, and George is offering us an insight into information that Melisandre can't possibly interpret (because we can recognize Bloodraven where she cannot), so we're able to put things together, adding what Melisandre thinks to what we know, and the text is meant to be read straightforwardly because the subversion we're getting here is that she is seeing her enemy, and Bran is on that side.

She later says "Could the enemy have touched him? Death is his domain," and BR is undoubtedly surrounded by death... and of course, we're constantly told how much Stannis looks like a corpse, so of course that all aligns: domain of death, mistaken for corpselike Stannis, it's really the enemy, like she suspects.

#asoiaf meta #jozor thoughts #bloodraven #melisandre

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agentrouka-blog · 11 months

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Something that niggles in my mind.

Stalwart Shield, the dead man Dany is told be to wary of in her first ADWD chapter:

The dead man's face was smooth and hairless, though his cheeks had been slashed open ear to ear. He had been a tall man, blue-eyed and fair of face. Some child of Lys or Old Volantis, snatched off a ship by corsairs and sold into bondage in red Astapor.

People of Lys are best known to be very Valyrian-looking.

While Jon is obviously a reference in that opening warning and carried the previous chapter transition in a clearly ominous manner, we are also for the first time introduced to a certain Valyrian-looking boy in ADWD - and a prophecy warning Dany of "the sun's son and the mummer's dragon".

They are mentioned in conjunction for some reason. In the same book we get this line:

Axell Florent's brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive? (ADWD, Jon IX)

There is a brother Jon doesn't yet know he has in great danger of facing dragonflame at some point. A dead man walking, most agree, and unlikely to rise again unlike Jon.

The flies rising up from the corpses of the crucified masters are called the "dead man's revenge" - a plague arising from Dany's impulsively executed mass killing in ASOS, but worded to match the single corpse she is warned about in ADWD. Death comes at a price.

Flies also feature heavily in AGOT, Daenerys VIII, buzzing around Drogo after his wound taken in the destruction of the Lhazareen city has festered. There is an air of consequences and doom surrounding them.

Something about that soup keeps reminding me of Garlan in Renly's armor.

"It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!" (ACOK, Sansa VII)

Ser Garlan Tyrell, five years senior to Ser Loras, was a taller bearded version of his more famous younger brother. He was thicker about the chest and broader at the shoulders, and though his face was comely enough, he lacked Ser Loras's startling beauty. (ACOK, Sansa VIII)

My hirelings betray me, my friends are scourged and shamed, and I lie here rotting, Tyrion thought. I thought I won the bloody battle. Is this what triumph tastes like? "Is it true that Stannis was put to rout by Renly's ghost?" Bronn smiled thinly. "From the winch towers, all we saw was banners in the mud and men throwing down their spears to run, but there's hundreds in the pot shops and brothels who'll tell you how they saw Lord Renly kill this one or that one. Most of Stannis's host had been Renly's to start, and they went right back over at the sight of him in that shiny green armor." After all his planning, after the sortie and the bridge of ships, after getting his face slashed in two, Tyrion had been eclipsed by a dead man. (ASOS, Tyrion I)

Dare I say, another twist on the mummer's dragon?

I'm not convinced of this scenario in every way, but if it's not Jon wearing his brother's armor to bring his ghost alive against the person who killed him, this image will still come back in another way. The concept is too powerful and we only saw it executed from afar.

#jon snow #aegon vi targaryen #anti daenerys targaryen #anti tyrion lannister #mummer's dragon #parallels #long post

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kaleidoscopewritings19 · 2 years

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“The Death of a Bastard” Series (Part 2 of?)

Title: “Riding away with nothing but Memories”

PART 2 to: “The Death of a Bastard.”

Pairing: Jon Snow x Reader/ Reader and Robb Stark

PART 1 PART 3 PART 4 PART 5

Warnings: really none.

Summary: The reader is the first to find Jon Snow’s lifeless body. She has to flee away from Castle Black and go back to her home, Rivendell. She reminisces, and remembers how she met her “Snow”, and fell in love with him. But she was promised to his half brother, Robb. Mostly based around how they met, and what in between their meeting and his death.

Comment if you want to be apart of the taglist. If at some point you want to be unadded, please let me know :) From here on, it will be going back to the beginning. How they met, why, when, and how she fell in love with them. Author’s Note at the end with more detail and explanation.

______

The red woman’s eyes never left you, and all you could do was stare at Jon’s lifeless body. Your right hand clutched your stomach, as if you were protecting your unborn child. What were you to do? Your lover, your protector, your best friend, was not here any longer. How were you to go on without Jon Snow?

You were so lost in your thoughts, you didn’t even realize that Melisandre left the room. You didn’t care where she went or why she left.

“You’re not the only ones who owe your lives to Jon Snow.” Davos said and Edd walked towards the door quickly. “Bolt the door. Don’t let anyone in. I’ll be back as soon as I can. Watch Lady Y/N. Get her out of here safely; do it before Thorne realizes we’re not in the mess hall.” The door closed and everyone went silent.

All eyes were on you. Then everyone started discussing how to get you out before everything went to hell. “Lady Y/N, we need to get you out of here at once.” Davos said as he picked up your hand, “when I get you out of here, ride as far away as you can. Go back home, to Rivendell, m’lady.” He said and you looked into his eyes.

“Have your child there. Tell not a soul who the father is. Mention the child to no one.” He said quietly and you nodded. You walked over to Jon, and tears rolled down your cheeks, “Damn you, Jon Snow. Damn you for leaving me. Damn you…” you say as you cried over his chest.

You looked up at him one last time, and rubbed his cold cheek with your thumb. “Always mine, and always yours, my love. I love you, Snow.” You whispered as you pressed a kiss to his lips.

Ser Davos picked up your hand and led you to a secret passage way. “Take this sword, and this bow, I know your family is well trained in archery.” He said as he helped you up onto a black horse.

“Watch your back and don’t look back, m’lady. If I make it out of here alive, I’ll come find you, Lady Y/N.” He said quietly, and you smiled.

“Thank you, Ser Davos… Best of luck to you and the rest of the brothers.” You say as you gently nudged the horse, and the cold wind nipped at your face as the horse ran.

You couldn’t let the horse slow down; not until you were far away from Castle Black.

__________

Ten miles away, you slowed down, and all you could think about was Jon. And when you first met him, you were a lot younger, 16 years old to be exact. He was 18, and you both fell for each other. Jon told you everything about what Robb had said.

“Did you hear who was coming to Winterfell?” Robb asked Jon, and he shook his head.

“No, who?” Jon asked and Robb smiled as he looked at himself in the mirror. “Lady Y/N of Rivendell.” He said as he ran his fingers through his hair. “Mother and Father want to have an alliance with the people of Rivendell. They want Y/N and I to marry.”

Jon looked at his half brother, “She’s gorgeous you know. I’m not too mad about it. It’s not hard to fall in love with her.” Robb said as he tried to smooth out his hair.

Arya shouted, “They’re here! Come on you two!”

Both Robb and Jon followed Arya, and watched you ride in with your family. You took off your hood and your Y/E/C eyes shined, shivering, you stepped off your horse.

Robb went down to greet you, but Jon stayed up on the balcony. Your eyes wandered as Robb introduced himself and pressed a kiss to your knuckles. But your eyes stopped on a dark haired boy; his eyes met yours. From then on, you were enamored by Jon Snow.

_______

Robb and Theon tried to get you to go with them on a ride through the woods, but you politely declined. Going off into the woods, you found yourself surrounded by trees, you prayed you hadn’t gotten yourself lost.

The crunch of leaves made you jump, “I apologize if I frightened you, Lady Y/N.” The dark haired boy said and you smiled. “This is the godswood. We pray here.” Jon said and you sat down on a tree log.

“I’m afraid I didn’t catch your name.” You say and Jon sat down next to you, “Jon. Jon Snow.” He said and you raised an eyebrow. “I know. I’m Neddard Stark’s bastard.” He said with a sigh and you titled your head to the side.

“I like the name Snow. It’s quite beautiful don’t you think?” You ask as you rubbed your arms. Jon watched as you pulled your cloak closer to your body. “Snow is pure and beautiful. The way it shimmers in the sunlight. One can’t help but to fall in love with the snow.” You say as you look over at Jon.

His cheeks turned red, “Well uh, what about your family? You all seem very charming.” He said and you smiled and looked at your hands.

“I think it’s in our nature.” You say and Jon raised an eyebrow, “What do you mean by that?” He asked and you stood up.

“Didn’t you know my family descended or supposedly descended, are elves?” You ask and he shook his head. “I know it seems like a story to frighten children, or just to get them to go to sleep.” You say and Jon moved closer to you.

“But they were our ancestors at one point, but my great great grandfather fell in love with a human. It messed with the bloodline, and here we are. Not as Elvish as we once were.” You say and Jon grinned.

—————————————

AUTHOR’S NOTE:

Guys I am making this into a mini series. Basically the reader, Y/N, is reminiscing about Jon Snow. How they met, when he left, and when he died. There will be stories from before he died, and after he “died”. I am not following the tv shows exact timeline, so if it seems wonky or off, that is why . I hope you guys enjoys the upcoming mini series. I couldn’t make up a town, and i was watching LOTR, and so Rivendell, which is gorgeous, will be used. There won’t be a cross-over of LOTR and GOT. I am just using the name, and the elvish ancestry. Credit for those names and words goes to Tolkien, and credit to Martin for GOT names and places mentioned.

TAGLIST: @bekky06 @lexxxistrips @sarcasm-n-insomnia @flowercrowns3438 @hellowhatthehellisgoingonhere

#jon snow smut #jon snow x reader #jon snow #game of thrones #Robb #brandon stark #sansa stark #sansa and arya #robb stark #house stark #house lannister #dire wolf #i stand by daenerys #queen daenerys #king of the north

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