#true value

[caw4brandon]

How AI Kills Creatives

Human beings love to express themselves in many unique ways. From dance, to singing, to creative writing and of course, by art. Artists wrestle everyday to stay relevant to the masses while doing their favorite hobbies to earn a living.

This however may become null and void as the art community is facing another difficult challenge that could put them into jeopardy. The answer as to what can pose a danger to our beloved creative types is the hot topic for this Wednesday's piece. Let's discuss the complex situation of AI Art.

- Being a Creative Online -

For as long as I can remember, Creative work is either something industrial for advertisements or for entertainment, like comic books or animated shows. Often times, it involves expressive and also very dead people of influence like [Van Gogh], [Picasso] and [Da Vinci]

This however changed when the world was introduced to the internet. Allowing creative work to be presented to the masses, pass the borders and beyond. A timeless time capsule of creativity that can reach places traditional methods failed to do at rapid speeds.

Places like [Artstation], [DeviantArt], [Behance] and [Pixvi] are some of the most popular websites where aspiring artists can produce and express their craft to be shared and may potentially, give them the confidence to do commissions. These sites laid out a platform that can attract beginners and professionals alike for a chance to find an audience and develop themselves. This however, doesn’t mean an easy climb.

Creators need to combat against the algorithm and the occasional critics of these respective sites to be recognized. Creators need to claw their way out of the crowds to be graced by algorithm which means, they probably need to churn out backlogs of content to be seen and favored.

- Rise of The AIs -

A few years ago, I stumbled across a program called [Artbreeder]

Its a free to use program that allows you to create close to realistic portraits or stylized artworks by using a base picture and some photo manipulation for the desired effect. 

I myself have also used Artbreeder to create a version of my character; Sadie mac Lir based on the game version of her in HPHM.

Around that time, there was also the discovery of the mix and match dress up site by the name of [Picrew] which I too have used on more than one occasion. As time went on, better and smarter programs start appearing. Thus, allowing the masses to create scuffed or impressive images of whatever they so wish. From OCs to potential future babies to fiction turned real characters. 

At frightening speeds, AI programs created by intelligent software and application builders have grown to observe and steal from artists in various parts of the world to produce excellent works of art within seconds. Thus, threatening the very livelihoods of those who produce art as a job.

Enter the most controversial AI Art program [Lensa AI by Prisma Labs] Who is accused by multiple professional artists for committing art theft. Using the styles, compositions and signatures of said artists to reproduce works under the program's watermark.

- This is Art Theft! -

First, let's make a few things clear. I am not an expert to the subject of AI Art Theft but I highly recommend reading these few posts by better experts who can explain things better than me.

You can read [Megrae's Post] and [Jonlamart's Post] to gain a better understanding of the situation. From here on out however, I will be using my own words to breakdown how this can potentially kill the Creative community at large in the long run. Including us little guys.

To loosely summarize, the application takes a massive data collection of posts created by professional artists to be learned and recreated. Infamously, the application uses works of art by the late [Kim Jung Gi US] and others without the respective artist's permission to gain traffic and profit.

The disturbing factor in question, is that the developers of Lensa AI created this application with data that is NOT CONSENTED for such use. The program blatantly steals the artistic skills and styles of the Creative, allowing instant results via prompts which puts Creatives into obscurity. And, this is just the beginning.

Heaven knows, if the big guys in this industry are not safe from this AI. The time will come, where even small time artists will suffer such a fate.

Worst still, it places the general world view that the art community is an irrelevant industry. It takes away the trouble and cost of doing commissions and requests be a lot more to the AI's favor.

Looking into it further, a video essay by [Ana Isabel] (Which I highly recommend you watch as well) showed several other AI programs that has gotten better into writing articles via processing a database of samples and a few keywords. Thus, removing the need for a creative writer. (Like I am right now) 

What we are looking at right now is, for the first time in history. We are at odds of replacing Creatives from job opportunities. With these programs available, the phrase "Any Tom, Dick and Harry can do it" has gotten too close for comfort.

- Arguments Against AI Art -

Of course, the application can't work without us Creatives feeding the program samples and data. In some way, it still requires some form of human creativity to feed it data and develop and it also requires a little bit of luck to trigger the right prompt.

As stated in Ana Isabel’s video, some artists welcome the AI as an additional tool to help lay some groundwork for the artist to improve and build upon. Which creates a new label; [CyberArtist] or Cyborg Artist. 

Their argument is that the AI can be a helpful tool to conceptualize ideas as a first draft in productions or help with small time gigs such as promotional art or E-flyers. These Cyborg Artists also pointed out that AI Art will set a unique benchmark for what “good art” actually is, focusing more on the concept/ prompt than the process of creation.

Tempting as it may to say the world cares more about the idea than the craft. This is still detrimental to small timers or freelancers who want to pursue art as a profession with their own new ideas. It can discourage new and rising artists from chasing their ventures as they will be aware of the competition upon them.  

The comment; “it won't happen because, MY art is not that great" is not the point. If I were to guess. The AI will absorb any artwork that emits a large following and activity as food for the AI to feed and replicate which might even include doodles if left unchecked.

Although, not all hope is lost. As with these new improvements arise new problems. For that, new laws and new policies are being made to combat this troubling issue. Though not effective, it does raise the awareness. What is very important is that the general public must be made aware of such an issue. The world still looks down on Creatives, and sees their work as still "just a hobby" which is why this awareness needs to be raised and why we need to prove we are better.

On a hopeful note, AI is but an imitation of what is considered as great art but the one thing it can't ever do is produce Personal Art. It can't emote the hard hours spent, the process of improvement, the personalized charm, and the very heart that the artist cares about the audience.

That is something the AI CAN’T ever do. Its easy to feel fear knowing that the days as a Creative is numbered now that everyone can have access to such a program and to some, it may even be disheartening. But be aware that the True Value of an artist is the heart they have to share their craft. To show the imperfections and to do so anyway because they believe it inspires people. That is perhaps, what AI Art can’t ever kill.

To give because they enjoy the fun of it.

Thanks for reading

- Caw4B -

#ai art #ai programs #art theft #lensa ai #prisma labs #digital painting #artist #ai art is not consented #ai art is theft #ai art is not art #consent #creative #art #digital art #traditional art #artbreeder #picrew #true value #creators #kim jung gi us #Jonlamart #megrae #ana isabel #creative community #cyber artist #cyborg artist #joys of art #no to ai generated images #support artists #anti ai art

[thingsifoundongeoguessr]

trust me bro this is an ace hardware bro please just listen trust me on this one true value isn't real bro this is an ace hardware always has been

#kenosha #wisconsin #united states #geoguessr #things i found on geoguessr #ace hardware #the helpful place #asexual #we make ace jokes as we please round these parts #true value #bad sign

[wisdomfish]

One of the strongest evidences that Christianity is true is its ability to explain and justify the meaningful realities of life.

Samples, Kenneth Richard. ‘Without a Doubt: Answering the 20 Toughest Faith Questions. p. 238

#one #strongman #christianity #the real life #true value

[bettaworldforbettas]

Froggy's Lair biospheres are unhealthy environments for African Dwarf Frogs.

These tanks (which include two African Dwarf Frogs) are not even sold at pet stores; they’re sold at toy stores, flower shops, hardware stores, vape shops, and boutiques.

Even Petco advises a tank that is a minimum of 10 gallons for African Dwarf Frogs.

While this isn’t a betta fish product, it’s an example of how aquatic pets get marketed as easy entertainment and toys for kids. Profit is prioritized above animal welfare and consumers receive wildly inaccurate information about their care.

I’m collaborating with Aquatic Ally Organization and animal advocates to address the sale and production of these harmful Froggy’s Lair biospheres which are sold by retailers like Learning Express, Ace Hardware, Hallmark gift stores, True Value hardware, and more.

These biospheres have and will continue to attract negative attention.

Please sign this petition to learn more and call for an end to these 1/2 gal and 1 gal biospheres.

#african dwarf frog #frog #froggyslair #toystore #animalwelfare #froggy #pet frog #pets #aquatic life #amphibians #frogs #tiktok #petition #inhumane #learningexpresstoys #ace hardware #true value #biosphere #froggyslairbiosphere #aquarium #aquariumhobby

[marutisuzukicar]

#maruti suzuki nexa #arena #true value #shivam autozone #maruti suzuki #authorized #dealership #car dealership #mumbai #maruti suzuki showroom #maruti suzuki service #arena showroom #arena service #nexa showroom #nexa service #commercial

[inkskinned]

the thing about art is that it was always supposed to be about us, about the human-ness of us, the impossible and beautiful reality that we (for centuries) have stood still, transfixed by music. that we can close our eyes and cry about the same book passage; the events of which aren't real and never happened. theatre in shakespeare's time was as real as it is now; we all laugh at the same cue (pursued by bear), separated hundreds of years apart.

three years ago my housemates were jamming outdoors, just messing around with their instruments, mostly just making noise. our neighbors - shy, cautious, a little sheepish - sat down and started playing. i don't really know how it happened; i was somehow in charge of dancing, barefoot and laughing - but i looked up, and our yard was full of people. kids stacked on the shoulders of parents. old couples holding hands. someone had brought sidewalk chalk; our front walk became a riot of color. someone ran in with a flute and played the most astounding solo i've ever heard in my life, upright and wiggling, skipping as she did so. she only paused because the violin player was kicking his heels up and she was laughing too hard to continue.

two weeks ago my friend and i met in the basement of her apartment complex so she could work out a piece of choreography. we have a language barrier - i'm not as good at ASL as i'd like to be (i'm still learning!) so we communicate mostly through the notes app and this strange secret language of dancers - we have the same movement vocabulary. the two of us cracking jokes at each other, giggling. there were kids in the basement too, who had been playing soccer until we took up the far corner of the room. one by one they made their slow way over like feral cats - they laid down, belly-flat against the floor, just watching. my friend and i were not in tutus - we were in slouchy shirts and leggings and socks. nothing fancy. but when i asked the kids would you like to dance too? they were immediately on their feet and spinning. i love when people dance with abandon, the wild and leggy fervor of childhood. i think it is gorgeous.

their adults showed up eventually, and a few of them said hey, let's not bother the nice ladies. but they weren't bothering us, they were just having fun - so. a few of the adults started dancing awkwardly along, and then most of the adults. someone brought down a better sound system. someone opened a watermelon and started handing out slices. it was 8 PM on a tuesday and nothing about that day was particularly special; we might as well party.

one time i hosted a free "paint along party" and about 20 adults worked quietly while i taught them how to paint nessie. one time i taught community dance classes and so many people showed up we had to move the whole thing outside. we used chairs and coatracks to balance. one time i showed up to a random band playing in a random location, and the whole thing got packed so quickly we had to open every door and window in the place.

i don't think i can tell you how much people want to be making art and engaging with art. they want to, desperately. so many people would be stunning artists, but they are lied to and told from a very young age that art only matters if it is planned, purposeful, beautiful. that if you have an idea, you need to be able to express it perfectly. this is not true. you don't get only 1 chance to communicate. you can spend a lifetime trying to display exactly 1 thing you can never quite language. you can just express the "!!??!!!"-ing-ness of being alive; that is something none of us really have a full grasp on creating. and even when we can't make what we want - god, it feels fucking good to try. and even just enjoying other artists - art inherently rewards the act of participating.

i wasn't raised wealthy. whenever i make a post about art, someone inevitably says something along the lines of well some of us aren't that lucky. i am not lucky; i am dedicated. i have a chronic condition, my hands are constantly in pain. i am not neurotypical, nor was i raised safe. i worked 5-7 jobs while some of these memories happened. i chose art because it mattered to me more than anything on this fucking planet - i would work 80 hours a week just so i could afford to write in 3 of them.

and i am still telling you - if you are called to make art, you are called to the part of you that is human. you do not have to be good at it. you do not have to have enormous amounts of privilege. you can just... give yourself permission. you can just say i'm going to make something now and then - go out and make it. raquel it won't be good though that is okay, i don't make good things every time either. besides. who decides what good even is?

you weren't called to make something because you wanted it to be good, you were called to make something because it is a basic instinct. you were taught to judge its worth and over-value perfection. you are doing something impossible. a god's ability: from nothing springs creation.

a few months ago i found a piece of sidewalk chalk and started drawing. within an hour i had somehow collected a small classroom of young children. their adults often brought their own chalk. i looked up and about fifteen families had joined me from around the block. we drew scrangly unicorns and messed up flowers and one girl asked me to draw charizard. i am not good at drawing. i basically drew an orb with wings. you would have thought i drew her the mona lisa. she dragged her mother over and pointed and said look! look what she drew for me and, in the moment, i admit i flinched (sorry, i don't -). but the mother just grinned at me. he's beautiful. and then she sat down and started drawing.

someone took a picture of it. it was in the local newspaper. the summary underneath said joyful and spontaneous artwork from local artists springs up in public gallery. in the picture, a little girl covered in chalk dust has her head thrown back, delighted. laughing.

#writeblr #warm up #this is longer than i wanted i really considered removing that part about myself and what i went thru #but i think it really fucking bothers me that EVERY time i talk about being an artist #ppl assume i just like. had the skill and ability to drop everything and pay for grad school. #like sir i grew up poor. my house wasn't a safe space. i gave up a FREE RIDE TO LAW SCHOOL. for THIS. bc i chose it. #was it fucking hard? was i choosing the hard thing?? yes. #but we need to stop seeing artists as lazy layabouts that can ''afford'' to just ''sit around and create'' #when MANY - if not MOST - of us are NOT like that. we have to work our fucking ASSES off. hard work. long and hard work #part of valuing artists is recognizing the amount we sacrifice to make our art. bc it doesn't just #like HAPPEN to us. also btw it rarely has anything to do with true talent. #speaking as someone with a chronic condition i hate when ppl are like u have it easy. like actively as i'm writing this my hands r #ACTIVELY hurting me. i haven't been posting bc my left hand was curled in a claw for the last week #this isn't fucking luck. after a certain point it's not even TALENT. it's dedication & sacrifice. #''u get to flounce around and do nothing with ur life'' is a narrative that is a direct result of capitalism #imagine if we said that about literally any other profession. #''oh so u give up 10 yrs of ur life to be a doctor? u sacrifice having a social life and u get SUPER in debt? #u need to work countless hours and it will often be thankless? well i wish i was that lucky'' #we should be applying that logic to landlords ONLY #''oh ur mom and dad gave u the money to buy a house? and all u did was paint it white and rent it? huh.''

[uncanny-tranny]

The leftism/anticapitalism leaving people's bodies the zeptosecond you imply that disabled people who aren't "productive" still matter in society and need to be treated like intrinsic equals who have a place in this world:

#disability #disability advocacy #described images #image description in alt #ableism #ableism tw #my full-time job is my disability and you're lucky that i am still 'productive' as-is #your boss doesn't care that you think you're superior for being hired by them. they're still going to treat you like profit machines #it astounds me how people will capitulate for oppression because they place their intrinsic value in their ability to be at the top... #...or at least 'at the top' compared to others. it's the same impulse that makes people think their cisgender status makes them superior... #...you are placing your worth into systems which not only oppress others but offer you no true sense of worth... #...ESPECIALLY if you're also being exploited (even if just a bit)... #...you have a job sure but... do you actually get treated like a human being? are you actually paid? are you actually safe?... #...if the answer to any of those questions and more is 'no' then why do you place your value in capitalistic production. genuinely. #and why would you DEMAND disabled people to have the same exploitation you experience. why do you DEMAND productivity if you are proletaria #yes being a leftist and anticapitalist are linked but. some people still internalize capitalism without questioning it #being a leftist is about challenging that rather than assuming you're correct i think #also scientists were very silly when describing time that's like. less than a millisecond i think

[kingofkingsschizo]

Don’t ever let anyone dictate your future, you are your own destiny.

DEFIANT.

#future #destiny's child #kingofkingsschizo #compassionatereminders #influencers #you can do it #schizophrenia #true value #be your best self

[libraalynn]

#positivevibes #positivemindset #strong #growth #beautiful #spiritualgrowth #spiritualhealing #spititual #self love #self respect #peace #inner peace #self value #self validation #peaceofmind #peaceful #self belief #be your true self #healing #self care

[allcalculator]

Interesting Queries on Percent error calculator

What is the Percent error calculator?

The percent error calculator is a tool used to calculate the difference between a measured value and a true or accepted value, expressed as a percentage. It is often used in scientific experiments and other situations where accurate measurement is important. The calculator allows users to input a measured value and a true or accepted value, then calculates the percent error using a specific formula.

Formula used to calculate percent error is:

Percent error = (measured value - true value) / true value x 100%

or

Percent error = (|measured value - true value|) / true value x 100%

The result is the degree of difference between the measured and true values, expressed as a percentage. A positive percent error indicates that the measured value is higher than the true value. In contrast, a negative percent error indicates that the measured value is lower than the true value. A zero percent error indicates that the measured and true values are the same.

The percent error calculator is commonly used in scientific experiments, engineering and construction projects, and other fields where accuracy is important. It can help to determine an experiment's precision and how close a measurement is to the actual value. It can also be used to check equipment accuracy or a measurement method.

How are inputs taken in the percent error calculator?

Allcalculator.net's percent error calculator is a tool that can be used to quickly and easily calculate the percent error of a measurement or calculation. The calculator takes two inputs - the actual value and the expected or accepted value - and performs the calculation to give the result as a percentage. This is a convenient way to evaluate the accuracy of your data and make better decisions.

How to use the percent error calculator?

To use an percent error calculator, simply enter the actual value and expected or accepted value into the designated fields. For example, if you are measuring the weight of an object and your scale reads 10.5 grams, but the actual weight of the object is 10 grams, you would enter 10.5 grams as the actual value and 10 grams as the expected value. The calculator will then perform the calculation and display the result as a percentage.

To use the calculator, you will need to input the following info:

A measured value is the value you have measured or obtained through an experiment or calculation.

True or accepted value: This is a measured quantity's known or accepted value.

Once you have input the measured and true values, the calculator will automatically calculate the percent error using the following formula:

        Percent error = (measured value - true value) / true value x 100%

The calculator will display the result as a percentage, representing the degree of difference between the measured and true values.

It's worth noting that a positive percent error indicates that the measured value is higher than the true value. In contrast, a negative percent error indicates that the measured value is lower than the true value. A zero percent error indicates that the measured and true values are the same.

Additionally, depending on the calculator and context, you can use the absolute value of the difference between the measured and true values. In this case, the formula would be: Percent error = (|measured value - true value|) / true value x 100%

The result of the calculation is the percent error, which can be interpreted as follows:

A result of 0% indicates that the measurement or calculation is perfectly accurate and matches the expected or accepted value.

A result of less than 5% is generally considered to be very accurate and acceptable in most fields.

A result of greater than 5% may indicate that the measurement or calculation is not accurate and needs to be checked or repeated.

In conclusion, an percent error calculator is a useful tool for quickly and easily determining the accuracy of a measurement or calculation. 

A percent error calculator ensures that your measurements and calculations are accurate and reliable. This will help you make better decisions and improve the quality of your data.

#percent error calculator #percent error #measured value #true value

[positivelypositivethoughts]

#take your time #posititvity #positive #positive life #positive quotes #strength positive #self love #self worth #loveyourself #body positive #positivity #happy #selfaffirmation #be your true self #self healing #self growth #self improvement #self care #know your value #know your worth #knowyourself #know yourself

[caw4brandon]

- Addressing Some Corrections -

Its been a couple of days since my post on; 

[How AI kills Creatives] Read it here. Artwork credit: [Anjin Anhut]

I figured I should address some corrections and bring forth some updates on the situation. First, I have to apologize for lumping Picrew with the likes of Lensa AI as I am very kindly educated.

Picrew is a fun mix and match site that heavily involves the respective artist's involvement in terms of the pose, style, alterations and colors. Looking into it further, the site is also [strongly against repost without credit] for that misinformation. I am very sorry~

On the other hand, Artbreeder involves real-life photographs of people but the site expressed that [the samples are for free use] While I have used both sites for my own nefarious plans (just kidding) I am personally a bit taken aback with my own ethics using Artbreeder.

Onto main topic at hand, I hear quite a number of arguments stating that this is just how things are supposed to be for the creative industry. That it's inevitable for the requirement of fast art by the masses, to enquire such a program and we as the "traditional" artists should work with the program instead.

Again, tempting as I am to say people care more about the idea than the craft. Part of the idea is in the craft itself. Its an intense and vulnerable labor that makes humans unique to other animals. To express our emotion, share our experiences and perception on the world. Imperfections and biases included.

This concern and protest is NOT the case of gatekeeping art, rather a genuine response of disapproval to such blindsided degradation towards artists and it's just blatant theft. While you can argue that "artists steal all the time" This is NOT the same case for AI as clearly stated. I want to do one final highlight on [Mochosum’s Post] and [Jojoesart’s Post] as it takes a more aggressive shed of light on the issue.

Its not the same as say, an amateur artist tracing the pose from some popular pop culture icon, maybe change the character then posting them online for entertainment purposes. (Which is a whole other can of worms I need to address) AI Art is stealing the owner's properties, selling them in broad daylight then beat up the owner. Claiming they (The Cyborg Artists) are the rightful owners.

Its even more infuriating when you read the news that the platforms for artists is not entirely “for nor against” this movement. This is still an ever growing case and I am very curious to see where it goes from here.

Personally, while I try to stay unbiased. I am NOT for AI Art. Its a major insult to artists big and small and it insults those aspiring to learn the craft and develop their own. With that in mind, it's a proper close to this dark story and my thoughts on it. So, its back to work for me and my silly little project and...I'll see you lads soon~

Thanks for reading

- Caw4B -

#ai art #ai programs #art theft #lensa ai #prisma labs #ai art is not consented #ai art is theft #ai art is not art #digital art #artbreeder #picrew #creative #creative community #cyber artist #cyborg artist #support artists #anti ai art #no to ai generated images #traditional art #true value

[littlethingsmakebigchanges]

A million people not caring is nothing compared to one who does.

Picture from pexels.com

Craig Adderly.

#don't give up #your value #about life #life support #positive thoughts #optimistism #truth #power #true value #words of truth

[wisdomfish]

The founding fathers of the United States of America recognized that moral values need a ground and justification beyond mere culture. According to the Declaration of Independence, individual rights are grounded in the divine Creator who transcends culture.

Samples, Kenneth Richard. ‘Without a Doubt: Answering the 20 Toughest Faith Questions. p. 232

#founding fathers #usa #morality #true value #culture

[fortheloveofexy]

it's a pet peeve of mine when ppl frame Andrew as hating Aaron and being needlessly cruel to him... bc while yes, their relationship is fractured and strained, Andrew genuinely cares about his brother and wants the best for him, he just doesn't know how to show that in a normal way.

like he might not know how to express it in a healthy manner but Andrew LOVES Aaron, like he truly just wants Aaron to be healthy and safe. It's like, his whole Thing. Aaron is one of the most important people in his life. Andrew wants him around. He'd do anything to protect him.

I guarantee Andrew wants to be emotionally close to Aaron too, he just doesn't have the tools to do that and the thought of letting someone in terrifies him. He also has no concept of what a healthy sibling relationship looks like, so he has no frame of reference to work from.

#i love bickering twinyards as much as the next guy but sometimes ppl write andrew has if he thinks aaron is a waste of space #and that just isn't true #andrew values his brother #he wouldn't insist on keeping aaron close if he didn't #when ppl do this is just so obvious to me that they're using andrew as a mouthpiece for their own dislike of aaron #and like ok yeah you're entitled to not like a character i guess #but it's just so wildly out of character to me for andrew to treat aaron like shit for no reason beyond Being Cruel #like yeah andrew can be mean when he's feeling defensive or trying to make a point #and yeah he can treat people like shit if he's got a reason to justify it like Keeping People Safe #but he's not needlessly cruel to the people closest to him without cause #like neil says #everything andrew does #he does For A Reason #even neil isn't needlessly mean to aaron tbh #like he doesn't like aaron much at certain points but if he picks a fight with aaron it's never without cause #and he's genuinely happy for aaron when things work out with katelyn in the end #and he wants aaron to have a relationship with andrew as well! like it's important to neil that the twins have a healthy bond!! #anyway im getting off my soapbox now this is just something i was thinking about today a Lot #aftg #all for the game #the foxhole court

[saint-ambrosef]

"the true meaning of Christmas is-" you're going to say Christ, right? right?? and not erase the fact that this is a fundamentally religious holiday by claiming the true meaning is not religious at all and is instead some feel-good secular vibes or basic value like "family" or "kindness"???

i dont care if secular people want to celebrate Christmas in their own non-religious way and as a result they subscribe a different personal meaning to the holiday, but do NOT spout bullshit about how the "true meaning" is irreligious and co-op the actual reason for the holiday to make it more palatable to your non-religious palate

#“i personally find Christmas meaningful because [x]” cool! #“actually the true meaning of Christmas is [insert non-religious value/vibe/thing]” bad!! no!! #mostly secular Christmas movies that do this but i hear people do it too