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iron--spider · 5 years

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Worried that Tony Stark is going to die in Avengers: Endgame? Do you want proof that he logically shouldn’t and the citations needed to die on that hill in the event that the powers that be do the unthinkable? Well step right up, fans and friends, because @whimsicalethnographies and I have compiled everything you might need, from canon quotes to future promotional appearances, that prove Tony Stark is not destined to die, and if they do kill him, they are ignoring the path that they laid out themselves and are thus causing his character arc to fail.

Here we go:

Canon evidence

“Don’t waste your life, Stark”

“A man with everything and nothing”

Both of these quotes are referencing family. Yinsen was referring to his own loving family, and Tony revealed that he didn’t have one (of course it’s hinted that this is Pepper—she’s supposedly his frantic text when they’re first attacked—but he doesn’t explicitly have it or her yet). Yinsen’s sacrifice was not for Tony to become Iron Man. It was for Tony to have a life, to have a family. What he didn’t have in the beginning and what he wanted to stay alive for. Tony ultimately fulfilling Yinsen’s true wish for him to stop isolating himself and make a family would be the most satisfying way for Tony’s story to end.

Yinsen is able to die peacefully because he has family that has already passed, and he wants to see them again. There is no way Marvel can properly parallel this because Tony’s family (the ones he genuinely loves anyway, other than his mother) are still alive, or still in the future (his children). If he dies he will leave everyone behind. The love of his life will still be here, and he’ll never be able to have children. If Pepper is pregnant, this is even worse. He will have a child, as he wanted to do, as he was looking forward to doing, but he will never meet it. This is especially cruel.

This would be a gross subversion of Yinsen, and ruin any meaning the character actually had in Tony’s life. He wanted him to be more, to have more, and to Yinsen, more was a family who was waiting for him.

In IM3, a little boy in a restaurant ominously whispers, “How did you get out of the wormhole?” It’s heavily implied that that line is entirely in Tony’s head as he’s descending into a panic attack and represents his fear of the unknown, and his fear of how he’ll handle the unknown, essentially finding the man behind the Mandarin mask who is coming after the people he loves AND fear of what he’ll do if he doesn’t have his armor to protect him. He obsessively spent a year(ish) building suits (of questionable quality) to keep that unknown away. By the end, he’s faced *that* fear, the fear of who he is without the suits. His anxiety/PTSD shifts from that point to Thanos himself, but he doesn’t yet have a face or an actual explanation until Infinity War, even though the magnitude of it is ramped up in Ultron by Scarlet Witch using the power of the Mind Stone. This is the start of facing an unknown, and if it follows the narrative comparison, coming out on the other side victorious, better, and stronger as a person. Rising above and moving on, not dying in the process, continuing to carry the self-inflicted weight of the entire universe.

“A famous man once said, ‘we create our own demons.’” Dying when he comes into contact with and defeats his true demon—“my only curse is you”—is not giving Tony his good ending.

An article on Iron Man 3, arguably the most important movie in Tony’s arc https://filmschoolrejects.com/finding-the-place-of-iron-man-3-in-the-marvel-cinematic-universe/

“Tony is defined by his desire to set arms down and leave war behind; Steve is defined by his inability to do the same”

“If Marvel really wants to give Tony the ending he deserves, they’ll let him live. Fans will continue to push their predictions down the pipleline until they eventually come true, but the arc laid out for Tony, starting in Iron Man 3, is clear. He needs to let go, but he can’t. The conclusion of Tony Stark’s arc isn’t death; it’s learning to pass responsibility on not to an army of robots, but to the people he trusts. After ten years, Tony Stark deserves his time in the sun.”

Tony’s PTSD - it would be a punch in the face to those of us with anxiety/PTSD/OCD who identify with him. He's got one of the most realistic portrayals of mental illness in film, and the powers that be acknowledge that, and it would SUCK for a company like Marvel to rip it all away when he's almost to the point of letting go of the responsibility he's carried—rightly or wrongly, because Thanos would still be collecting those stones even if Tony had never been in that cave—since the beginning of his story. Dying? That's not letting go. That's saying "sorry you went through all this, it sucks and then you die, because it really was all YOUR responsibility and you have to suffer to fix it."

In Ultron, Helen Cho says Tony’s “bulky metal suits will be left in the dust”. Tony says that’s “exactly the plan”. He wants to retire. He wants to be able to stop being Iron Man so he can live his life.

“Isn’t that why we fight? So we can end the fight and go home?” Tony in Ultron. None of this has ever been continuous for Tony. He’s consistently been heading towards his future goals and fighting when he has to—he gets derailed because he feels it’s his duty to step back in. He does not seek out the fights, and he doesn’t necessarily want to be a part of them. He wants to make his life and that’s where his narrative is heading. If it doesn’t make it there, it fails. He fails.

“Maybe I should take a page out of Barton’s book. Build Pepper a farm, hope nobody blows it up.” “The simple life.” “You’ll get there one day. “I don’t know. Family, stability...the guy who wanted all that went into the ice 75 years ago. I think someone else came out.” End of Ultron conversation with Steve. Tony wants to settle down, buy a farm for Pepper (representing retirement and the start of his family). He is the one, out of himself and Steve, that is actively seeking to “tap out” of the fighting life so he can be with Pepper, and start a family. Steve says “I’m home” when he hears the soldiers chanting.

Wedding conversations in Civil War, Homecoming and Infinity War. The amount of mentions this has is huge. It would be a major hanging thread if it never happens.

The original plan was for Pepper to be pregnant during CW, however this was changed to put Tony in a darker place. They are going for Dad-Tony eventually, and that wasn’t conducive with where he was in CW. Yet.

Happy has been carrying “that thing” since 2008. Would they really do that to Happy/Jon Favreau, perhaps the other father of the MCU as he directed Iron Man—have him carry the ring for 10 goddamn years just to cut that storyline off with no resolution? Happy deserves to see this man-child he’s chased around forever get married and settle down.

Specifically, “Wong, you’re invited to my wedding.” It would be a terrible subversion if instead he goes to his funeral.

And per the writers (who also wrote the CA movies),

Markus: Things always shift in the writing, but I think we all knew where it was going and it was a matter of how best to get there so that it feels most satisfying or most earned. What was that adjustment process like? How much did the script have to change from when you were breaking it in 2015 to when they went to film it? Were there big things that you had to account for that you just hadn't had any idea about? Markus: Because of the other movies? No. I don't think there was anything massive that we had to change gears for. There were things that became better because of the value that the other movie had acquired. https://www.etonline.com/how-the-avengers-endgame-writers-arrived-at-the-most-satisfying-ending-possible-exclusive-123477 That would be an absolutely collosal shift to wipe it away entirely

The baby conversation in Infinity War. Why set all this up so blatantly if they weren’t going to use it? For a cheap emotional rug pull? Tony wants children, not just another set of his genes in the world.

And Pepper’s response; she doesn’t want children if he’s still Iron Man, for fear that he’ll be distracted, or something worse. If she’s going to have a kid with him, she wants him there. If the point was simply a baby, not a baby AND Tony, this is pointless exposition. Also, Pepper has thought Tony was dead at least four times: IM1, Avengers, IM3 and IW. Would they really make her watch it happen for real after that? Rob her of her family and make her worst fear come true, right in front of her eyes?

Tony as Odysseus - A lot of us—who've watched and identified with this character—realize that this is an Odyssey, not a Tragedy. Odysseus makes all kinds of mistakes while trying to get home, but he gets there, after 10 years. And then,

“As for yourself, death shall come to you from the sea, and your life shall ebb away very gently when you are full of years and peace of mind, and your people shall bless you. All that I have said will come true.” He makes it home. He got super lucky a lot of times, but he made it home, to his family. He found his everything.

“You’re a hard man, Odysseus. Your fighting spirit’s stronger than ours, your stamina never fails. You must be made if iron head to foot.”

Alternate translation- “You’re a hard man, Odysseus, stronger/ Than other men, and you never wear out, / A real iron-man.” (both quotes taken from starkravinghazelnuts, http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/181064173168/so-i-did-more-research-about-tony-steve-and-thor)

Promotional

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201812/6461/ Tony Stark is heading up a new rollout in Disneyland parks. Speaks for itself, they’re making Tony have a very strong presence in the parks. Disney is for kids, kids love Iron Man, and they will be aware of his death and reminded of it when they see him and Stark Industries everywhere on their family vacation. Longtime fans will also have to deal with this. If they were actually going to kill him, why would they make his presence in the future of these parks so big?

“In California and Paris, Tony Stark is retrofitting two of his father’s Stark Industries sites into new hubs for training and innovation. Through partnerships with S.H.I.E.L.D., Pym Technologies, Masters of the Mystic Arts and the new Worldwide Engineering Brigade, The Avengers and their allies will forge new global campuses to champion the next generation of heroes.” We know Hank Pym hates the Starks because he feels Howard betrayed him by trying to replicate the Pym Particle. As Scott says, “Hank Pym always said you could never trust a Stark.” How does this work, unless there is something forward that allows them to establish a better relationship? This can’t be retrofitted to anything before a potential Endgame end.

https://youtu.be/0tW77VFKQC0 https://youtu.be/EVIu43xSeYY In the Ant-Man and the Wasp ride, they collaborate with Tony/Iron Man in their ride mission. You see him, they speak to him, and it seems like a new storyline. It connects to the Iron Man Experience’s storyline, the ride they already had there in Hong Kong.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/marvels-iron-man-vr-ps4/ upcoming Iron Man VR game. It would be very morbid playing this game, from Tony’s POV, if Tony is dead.

That giant Iron Man statue for Endgame in Hong Kong (https://www.timeout.com/hong-kong/news/a-giant-4-5m-iron-man-installation-and-life-sized-avengers-have-taken-over-hysan-place-041219). Imagine coming across that thing if you just saw him die. It’s staying up until May 13th. Do they want it looking like a place of mourning? A monument with flowers and notes? Shit, that’s a spoiler in itself that I don’t think they want. It would also be incredibly depressing.

https://www.tmz.com/2018/01/12/avengers-4-wrap-party-cake-drops-clues/ Endgame wrap party cake. If Tony died, he would be on this thing. It wouldn’t even be considered a spoiler because Iron Man is literally the face of the MCU, so people wouldn’t look twice at it. But his absence does say something—that they didn’t think they needed to pay tribute to him here, because he is still around to pay tribute to later, if need be. This cake is implying different characters are in peril, with certain hands shooting up out of the ground. But Iron Man is only represented with his logo on the bottom, as are all the rest of the heroes. If he died, he’d be the centerpiece. More on this theory by starkravinghazelnuts http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/180160474003/the-cake-theory-proposes-that-cap-nat-and-bruce

Cast quotes regarding Endgame

Gwyneth - (on a picture of her and RDJ) “you know I will be this guy’s Pepper any time he needs me” why would she say this if he’s dead? If he was dead and she didn’t want to spoil, she didn’t need to say anything at all.

And this wasn’t a one-off referring to playing opposite him, she was referring to Tony/Pepper, after an interview in which she said she was probably done, but would come back for a day if they wanted her.

Gwyneth again - https://www.etonline.com/how-the-avengers-endgame-writers-arrived-at-the-most-satisfying-ending-possible-exclusive-123477 “Pepper and Tony have had a real long journey together. She obviously starts as his dutiful assistant, and then the relationship evolves, and now this decade later they're married, and they have a child. Their relationship has evolved in all of the ways that great romances evolve.” Now, I always saw this as—Gwyneth was done filming when this quote was given. She was aware of the end of her character’s journey, so this is obviously something that happens at the END chronologically. Why would she reference something smack dab in the middle of the film, especially if it was just going to be erased by time travel/quantum realm shenanigans? She’s also wearing an engagement ring and a wedding band in some interview photos where she’s in costume. Plus, possible/probable spoilers…….Pepper is going to be suiting up as Rescue, which really knocks off the possibility of a mid-movie child for Pepper and Tony. It would be completely against her character to suit up and leave a kid behind, considering how much flack she gave Tony for his suits before, and how her hesitation to have a child hinged on Tony re-inserting his arc reactor. Plus, on a more emotional note, Gwyneth refers to Tony/Pepper as a great romance, and it is. But I feel like she and Robert combined would not be happy at all if the writers were to destroy this great romance by killing one of its members. That way it falls flat, it never finishes, it doesn’t get its rightful end. I feel like she and RDJ (who has significant sway over what happens to Tony) would argue against this happening. This is a great romance, and those end in happily ever afters. This isn’t West Side Story. This is a Disney movie.

Evans - https://youtu.be/bH0frwdtmXM (when asked to describe the movie in one word on GMA) “Satisfying. It’s like TV shows, the final finale—how many times do they stick the landing? How many times do you walk away saying that went exactly how I wanted it to go? This movie—I think they deliver, I think they really do stick the landing in terms of, you know—addressing the arcs and really finding a completion.” I think this definitely speaks for itself. The arcs are important and we know what they are. One of our main concerns is them tossing out the true endings to these arcs for cheap, cruel emotional shocks. If Chris says specifically that the arcs are addressed, then we know what that SHOULD mean for each character. Plus, saying “that went exactly how I wanted it to go”? I don’t believe any genuine fans want deaths. Especially fans with children. People who genuinely care about these characters want to see them succeed and live to reap the rewards. So saying it went “exactly as I wanted it to go” and that they “stick the landing” bodes well for things ending up nicely for our heroes. Nothing in his speech here screams death.

Hemsworth - https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a27110673/avengers-endgame-chris-hemsworth-interview/ also uses the word cathartic. Nothing about Tony dying would be cathartic. It would be sickening and depressing and we wouldn’t get anything out of it.

Taika Waititi https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/1082838/Avengers-Endgame-Korg-Taika-Waititi-Thor-Ragnarok-Avengers-Infinity-War-MCU-Marvel “They keep their cards so close to their chests, but from what I’ve heard, it wraps up everything in a really great way." “It feels like the fans are getting rewarded for hanging around for 10 years and watching all these films.” “Because the more you know about the characters and the stories and stuff, the more satisfying this film will be.” These feel particularly important. A reward would not be killing the biggest character in the MCU. And he mentions the fact that really knowing the characters makes everything more satisfying. We all know where Tony is heading, and what he wants. These quotes particularly point to Tony surviving, and maybe everyone surviving.

Scarlett - https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/scarlett-johansson-calls-avengers-endgame-beautiful-valentine-decade-madness/ “a beautiful valentine to a decade of madness” Not ‘my bloody valentine’. A gift full of love for the people that have been here for ten years watching these characters grow.

RDJ - https://twitter.com/our_rdj/status/1118891286763798528?s=21 https://twitter.com/caplovesfondue/status/1118764023397249024?s=21 https://twitter.com/MCU_Direct/status/1119043210553249792 “I guarantee you that this will pay off. This Avengers Endgame, I’ve said it before, is our finest hour.” “The last eight minutes of that movie are maybe the best eight minutes in the entire history of the whole run of them, in a way. Because everyone’s involved. So I was delighted.” Both of these quotes, from the man himself, the man who loves Tony Stark with his entire being, do not feel like a Tony death at all. Because if we know Tony, we know what a payoff for him is. It’s getting the life, the family he’s been fighting for since the beginning. And as for the second one, logically, eight minutes does not feel like enough time to send Tony off in an out-of-left-field death. And I think our final battle will be longer than eight minutes. So I personally believe he’s referring to the wedding. He loves Tony/Pepper enough to hold their wedding in extremely high regard. He’s always delighted with Tony’s happiness and Tony advancing in his journey, especially with Pepper by his side.

“Cathartic” - https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-avengers-endgame-press-conference-20190407-story.html said by the Russos at the press conference

“Satisfying” - https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a27110673/avengers-endgame-chris-hemsworth-interview/ , https://www.etonline.com/how-the-avengers-endgame-writers-arrived-at-the-most-satisfying-ending-possible-exclusive-123477

“Earned” https://www.etonline.com/how-the-avengers-endgame-writers-arrived-at-the-most-satisfying-ending-possible-exclusive-123477 When you think about Tony, you do not think his death is earned at this stage, because so much is left hanging that his story has been calling for since moment one. What would be “earned” for Tony is him marrying Pepper. He has more than earned that. She has earned this wedding, too.

Misc (POTENTIAL SPOILERS)

Tony has sacrificed over and over and over again, in almost every movie we see him in. Doing it in Endgame would be a rehash of the same storyline, and sacrifice is not something Tony has to learn. He already knows how, he’s already willing. He needs to learn how to live. Bringing him to that realization at the end of it all would be the most appropriate route to take.

Iron Man 1 - he implores Pepper to hit the button, even though she tells him, “but you’ll die.”

Iron Man 2 - while it could be said he would be killed by the presence of the reactor itself, JARVIS explicitly says the use of the suit is accelerating the palladium poisoning that is killing him. Tony doesn’t stop. Part of this could be attributed to his reckless end-of-life attitude, but it’s clear from the Senate hearing—he wouldn’t have stopped

The new element is obviously something in itself. While the IM2 novel called it vibranium, this was retconned in CA, and then set up for more in Captain Marvel when it was revealed the project involving the Tesseract was called Project Pegasus, first called that when Fury dropped off Howard’s things at Tony’s mansion. Tony withstood the power of the Mind stone in A1 with the arc reactor, and then again in IW when Thanos unleashed the power of the Power stone on him and the suit merely blocked it. The suit is literally powered by the Space stone, much like Carol is, and for IM2-IM3, the Space stone literally powers Tony, which is more than you can say for a Mad Titan. Even Hulk doesn’t have the power of the Space stone behind him. You don’t hang a gun on the wall unless you plan on firing it later.

Also tied into IM2 - “if you could make a god bleed” … Tony is the only one to actually injure Thanos.

Avengers - Tony lays down on the wire. The arc set up by Steve’s comment is fulfilled when he flies the nuke through the wormhole. He knew it would probably kill him, which is why he tried to call Pepper.

Iron Man 3 - he sends his suit to Pepper first, when the “Mandarin” comes for him. Then in a deleted scene, he removes his arc reactor to save Harley’s bully, and nearly dies before Harley puts it back

Age of Ultron - Tony, despite wishing to go home and buy Pepper her farm, is willing to stay with Thor on the flying rock, even though he knows he could die, it’s his responsibility to fix this.

Civil War - this is a bit of subversion, as Tony is in a dark place and never needs to sacrifice his life. But as we saw in IM3, Tony IS Iron Man. And he’s willing to turn over power of Iron Man, which he wasn’t in IM2, to a higher power. He’s willing to give up his autonomy to keep the rest of the team out of jail and assuage his guilt (he’s starting to see the repercussions of bearing it all on his own). We can have discussions about who was right about which part, but Tony was willing to sacrifice a big part of himself.

Infinity War - duh. He got on that spaceship. He was planning on it being a one way trip (which incidentally, is why Pepper wasn’t keen on a kid). And then he took Thanos on one-on-one. And then, the look of despair when Strange gave up the stone to save him? He was more than willing to die.

Endgame - eventually, he will be willing to try, even if it means his death, because he’s always been willing to sacrifice himself. Remove that burden from his shoulders.

(It is interesting to note that the one time Tony is not in the position to sacrifice his life is in Spider-Man: Homecoming. When he is in the overseeing/mentor position, which could be his role in the MCU after Endgame, and when he’s starting to take up the role of “father figure”, which he should also be after Endgame, but to his own biological children as well. He is however, appalled and terrified at the thought of someone else, this crazy Spider-child who’s just a bit too much like him, being reckless and willing to sacrifice himself. Maybe Tony needs to take a bit of his own advice.)

The endings of the Iron Man movies are all tonally upbeat and to end Tony’s story for good on a “downer” note does not go along with his storyline --from starkravinghazelnuts http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/181110494893/avengers-endgame-is-said-to-be-the-end-of-many-of

The Infinity Saga is Tony Stark’s arc. Every other character, including Cap, is ancillary. Every character is where they are because of a Stark. What happens to him will be the defining characteristic of the Saga, and it isn’t set up to be a Tragedy.

RDJ says the last eight minutes of Endgame has “everybody” involved, which would obviously include Natasha, who is extremely important. Which contradicts the reddit “leaks.”

https://twitter.com/stevcrogvrs/status/1118853707280601088?s=21 Chris Evans says if Steve had a choice, he would go back in time to be with Peggy. Since he was able to say this, there’s no doubt that it doesn’t happen, as the Marvel spoiler snipers would have switched from Mark to Chris and put five holes in his head before he hit the ground. This contradicts the reddit “leaks.”

https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/04/19/avengers-endgame-hawkeye-black-widow-relationship-jeremy-renner/ Jeremy Renner also says Clint and Natasha’s relationship will last “forever”, which seems to underline their closeness and how much they mean to each other. All of this contradicts the reddit “leaks”, which describe a horrible thing happening to the two of them that wouldn’t ever actually happen if they were to stay in character. Plus, Chris Evans apparently called these dudebros out and straight up denied their “leaks”, so these “leaks” have no veracity either way.

When asked to draw their favorite characters, Anthony Russo drew Iron Man and Joe drew Spider-Man. The Iron Dad relationship is obviously going to be important in the movie, and it would bode well for these characters to get a good ending in the movie if they’re the very favorites of both directors.

RDJ is screening Endgame at his house for family and friends on Easter Sunday. Would he really ruin a holiday with a movie in which his character dies an unwarranted death?

There has not been a wedding in the MCU yet. What would be a better way to end the MCU’s first romance than with the MCU’s first wedding? We’ve had a funeral already, for a side character, and that was bad enough. Imagine how horrible it would be to witness Tony Stark’s funeral as the ending for Endgame. That does not seem like the kind of feeling the Russos want to leave us with. The wedding seems far more appropriate for a movie of this scale and importance.

The chess theory (courtesy of starkravinghazelnuts) — “The last piece to discuss on the chess board is the King piece. This piece is the game winner. Once your king is check-mated, the game is over, and your opponent wins, regardless of the score. The king chess piece is the piece you must protect the most and the one you cannot live without. Many experienced players may find themselves utilizing the king in an attempt to gain an advantage over an opponent, something weaker chess players are leery of doing. No matter how you choose to use your king piece, he must stay alive at all costs.” Tony and Thanos are the Kings on opposing sides. The king must be kept alive in order to win, which is why Tony should make it to the end of the film intact. Thor also literally mentions someone “playing an intricate game” and says that person “has made pawns of us” at the end of Ultron when discussing the Infinity Stones. http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/181491397743/starkravinghazelnuts-quite-frankly-this-is-the

Two very important meta pieces by starkravinghazelnuts, who has essentially been funding my positive attitude for a while now http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/182086909963/looking-back-over-everything-i-still-feel-really http://starkravinghazelnuts.tumblr.com/post/182017989478/i-agree-with-you-the-rhodey-show-sounds-good-but-i

https://fanfest.com/2018/08/16/the-russos-reflect-on-iron-man-being-the-heart-and-soul-of-the-mcu/ “I think, in a lot of ways, he is the heart and soul of the Marvel universe,” Infinity War co-director Joe Russo said during a video interview with Wired. “He’s a fascinating character, a character that we love because he is imminently flawed and we like characters that are challenging and express their humanity and I think Tony Stark does that as well as any of the characters. He started off as a narcissistic alcoholic and grew into a hero which, I think, makes him imminently relatable and signifies what the Marvel universe stands for, which is character first and the heroes are defined through the choices that they make.” The Russos love Tony. And you cannot live without your soul, you cannot live without your heart. No matter what you say about Tony, losing him to death would leave a massive, gaping hole in the MCU. Keeping him available to return is the safer bet in almost every regard.

https://youtu.be/f0Ai05cUQoM “If there were no RDJ, there would be no MCU.” - Kevin Feige. RDJ started it all, and Tony shouldn’t die, his presence should remain. He should be able to pop in and out as he sees fit. They know his star power and how important Tony is to the MCU.

https://www.newsarama.com/39526-rdj-as-iron-man-irreplacable-but-will-eventually-leave-says-avengers-infinity-war-directors.html “One closeup from RDJ is worth another actor’s entire performance, he’s incredibly gifted and insanely talented” - Joe Russo. May be a weak reason, but would they really...make him permanently lost to them? They’ve expressed interest in coming back. Would they really banish their most talented and lucrative actor to the darkness of a character death for a cheap shock?

https://youtu.be/5ljluGA4dQU (around ten minutes in) In the Jimmy Kimmel interview, they show the clip they’ve been showing everywhere of Carol’s meeting with some of the Avengers. Jimmy points out that RDJ isn’t in the clip, and he asks if that means something bad for Tony. RDJ says “No, no, no. Not in the slightest.” He could and probably is referring to the fact that Tony is definitely alive at this point, sure, but his attitude and the way he says it points to an overall confidence about Tony that bleeds over to the viewer. In fact, Robert’s whole demeanor during this press tour has been one of pure joy. He is having the time of his life, dancing and laughing, moreso than we have seen before. It could be a man enjoying his last tour with a very special group, but, somehow, I don’t believe someone who loves Tony as much as RDJ does would be this happy if Tony died. Especially if Tony’s death was unwarranted and out-of-left-field, which it absolutely would be if it happened. And this is in contrast to Chris, who has been, while not sad, far more reserved.

Some on-point thoughts from some of the few sane people on reddit:

“After Infinity War went out of its way to establish Thanos as a physical embodiment of Tony’s PTSD (“he’s been in my head for 6 years,” “My only curse is you”, *author’s note: see also above with coming to face an unknown fear like in IM3*), the idea of him ultimately defeating Thanos by killing himself is like... morally reprehensible as a message. I’d like to think Markus and McFeely would know better than that, but honestly, I’ve felt since Civil War that they don’t have the best grasp on his character. Edit: someone asked me in a PM to elaborate on this, so I’m just gonna go ahead and post what I wrote just in case anyone’s interested. Ok, this is gonna be kinda long, but I’ve been sitting on this for a while. so Iron Man 3 was the beginning of Tony’s new character arc that’s gone from phase 2 up till now. In phase 1, his whole journey was learning not to be selfish, and to be willing to put himself on the line to protect others. Avengers 1 completes that arc, and Iron Man 3 sets up a new conflict, where he’s driven entirely by his trauma from the events of The Avengers. He’s obsessed with protecting the world from threats beyond his control- we see it in Iron Man 3 with the house party suits being products of his anxiety, and in Age of Ultron with the Ultron program. He feels like it’s his responsibility to be everyone’s protector, and he’s desperately clinging to any sense of control he can still have in a world that he now realizes is much bigger than him. In Infinity War, he finds out that the event that left him traumatized was orchestrated by Thanos, and for the rest of the movie is driven by a single-minded need to confront Thanos directly and put an end to him, in order to finally be free of the PTSD that’s dominated his life for 6 years. By taking on that responsibility and ambushing him on Titan instead of reaching out to his support system (Steve + the other Avengers), Tony inadvertently puts everything he cares about at risk. In the context of Tony’s story, Thanos is his trauma- and Tony’s defeat on Titan is a direct result of his compulsive need to carry the burden of that trauma alone. So to then have him sacrifice himself to defeat Thanos in Endgame essentially sends the message that “yes, it is a good thing to bear that trauma on your own, and in fact, if you can’t see any other option, killing yourself is an acceptable solution.” It sends a horrible message in the context of the ongoing story, and it doesn’t tell us anything new about Tony as a character- we already know he’s self-sacrificing, it’s been his defining character flaw for four movies already. It’s just a really poor way to end his story.” — msg53

“This. Tony’s arc has been about letting go of his ego while learning to rely on others. His first step was handing Stark Ind. over to Pepper. He tried letting go with Ultron, but it failed cuz Ultron was just an extension of himself. Then he started seeing how being a mentor/father figure could help a kid in need of both (Peter) and the eventual next step should be family and real retirement while others defend/avenge Earth, once he’s done with his Thanos curse. Aside from Thor, His death would feel the most gratuitously out of sync with his journey of all the OG Avengers.” —VictorVonDoomBots

(special shoutout to cuddlebirb over there, consistently fighting for Tony rights)

The absolute nastiness to take out their main character, their cash cow, the one that started it all, when he’s got so much still hanging simply makes no sense. They would leave people with a sick feeling in their stomachs over this movie. People would not be happy with the turn of events, they would feel cheated out of a proper ending for the main character of the whole franchise. It would not be an event movie, it would be the movie that Killed Tony Stark. It would be tainted, and I don’t think the Russos want that. I know they say they think about their own reactions when writing these films, but they’ve gotta be smart enough to realize what a mistake this would be for the die-hard, longtime fans.

Plus, this is an ending to one generation and a lead-in to another. They don’t have Stan anymore to do their cameos, and some people will be on edge about whether to continue. Having RDJ hang around to do cameos and show up here and there to help the new heroes will put people in those seats for the upcoming films. His fifteen minute presence in Homecoming made many people go see the film that wouldn’t have otherwise. They need a hero that people know and love to remain a constant, even if he’s not in a starring role, and Tony Stark is the perfect person to do this. He always helped the younger heroes in the comics, and he’s already taken the mentor mantle with Peter. It’s a natural progression.

The amount of suffering that Tony has been through in the entirety of the MCU and in Endgame in particular, should lead to him finally getting something good in the end, a retirement where he gets to relax and let someone else carry the weight of the world instead of him, for once. Endgame will begin with Tony in extreme anguish, sick, hurt, sad and alone (save for Nebula). In the end, he should be healthy and happy, surrounded by the people who love him, with his future bright, full of possibility, and free of threats because Thanos is gone. That is simply good writing and good bookending. The writers shouldn’t be in the business of torturing Tony for torture’s sake. If he begins in such a dark place, he should end somewhere promising.

Happy’s behavior in FFH trailer. Tony is Happy’s best friend. Would the man be acting so chill, flirting with May, if his BFF just died? It is confirmed that FFH takes place minutes after Endgame. Plus, in a deleted Infinity War scene that featured Happy, Tony says that he and Pepper should set him up with someone. Would that someone be May?

Pepper is literally Tony’s endgame—he says it himself, “in the end, it’s always you.”

#tony stark #avengers endgame #avengers #marvel #endgame speculation #this is massively long but i think it really gets its point across #there is just way way too much pointing to his survival #robert downey jr #rdj

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aq2003 · 5 years

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FULL ENDGAME REVIEW

6.5/10 was ok but could’ve been a lot better in my opinion and by a lot better i mean

tony should’ve lived

-the russos are war criminals for what they did to tony alone. he had a family to go back to, JUST like clint. but i guess self sacrifice is cool, right?

-ever since iron man 3, tony’s story has essentially a dark twist to the “great power great responsibility” trope: the hero internalizes the motivating phrase (“don’t waste your life”), and let it interfere with their ability to take care of themself/open up to others. it started strong in iron man 3, got undermined in aou, got slightly more prevalent in the context of civil war, FINALLY got foreshadowed in infinity war. his arc was ultimately about letting other people HELP him with the responsibility he feels like he needs to carry

-until endgame threw it under the bus again. in an objectively cool way, yeah, but it still got thrown under the bus and i’m mad

-so now tony stark’s story is ultimately a tragedy. and i fucking hate it, man. he had happiness (but not really, because peter’s not there) for 5 years and that got snatched away from him too! he underwent so much trauma since his goddamn origin story and he had a few moments of peace, sure, but he died before he could fully reunite with his loved ones. and it SUCKS.

-god this is . this is like. if obi-wan kenobi went through All That but got really close to luke before he died and also never got any closure with anakin as a force ghost

-the russos have said, like outright, that thanos was a symbol of what tony’s been fearing of since 2012, the being that symbolized the root of his anxiety and ptsd. so what does tony do to defeat it? uhhh idk he dies i guess. but it’s okay! he can finally rest now!

-really great message there for the kids, right?

-also there was a whole sequence about him talking to his dad about not abandoning his kid and being there for her. but now he CAN’T be there for morgan because tony stark is fucking gone and dead and i can’t fucking handle this he deserves so much better

-also also not to be a DudeBroGeek™ but he totally got nerfed during his fight scenes

thor shouldn’t have been played off as a joke

-my whole theater laughed at him being . fat. and i was SUPER SUPER SUPER uncomfy the entire time

-he has a PANIC ATTACK and people LAUGHED i mean way to treat more of your mentally ill characters like shit, russos! sure! just devaluate thor’s suffering by saying “oh he’s fat so it’s funny now! hehe!” FUCK you

-i mean, yikes, i can’t believe we went from iron man 3 (where mental illness is one of the major problems the protagonist clearly struggles with, where tony’s panic attacks are disturbingly real and in no way funny) to THIS SHIT

-don’t even get me STARTED on his arc. like from thor 1 to dark world it’s about putting aside his arrogance for the good of his people. for ragnarok it’s finally stepping up and finding his powers while taking up the responsibility as king. in infinity war i was able to turn a blind eye to it, but it’s so prevalent in endgame how little the russos care about thor’s journey in his movies

-in the end he passes off the responsibility he took up in ragnarok to val and just straight up fucked off to space. like what the hell, man?

-ALSO . loki said the sun would shine on them again but the sun DIDN’T fucking shine on them and i feel robbed. i feel like the russos broke into my home and stole something important.

-the brodinsons deserve better.

-how can taika even be there, like physically. i mean. the thor from his movie got entirely retconned

-also not to be a DudeBroGeek™ again but. but like tony he was so 100% nerfed especially during the fight against thanos HOW did thanos even touch stormbreaker aka the weapon made to kill him like what

-i hate to put this all on james gunn but he’s GOTTA fix the crimes committed in endgame against the guardians and thor

steve’s entire character arc shouldn’t have been undermined

-one of his defining character traits is that he won’t stand by and let bad things happen when he can prevent it

-if you could describe steve rogers THAT’S what you would say about him.

-it’s like tony being smart. or thor being powerful. steve is just Like That

-so why did he go back in time when two full movies were dedicated to him adapting to the future

-idk it doesn’t really make sense to me

-i don’t actually have much to say about steve, i’m not as attached to his character as tony and thor but it still rubs me the wrong way. maybe it makes more sense to steve stans but from what i’ve seen they’re PISSED even though out of the trio he got the most time to shine in battle lmao

also

-the time travel fuckery was. hmmm

-nat wasn’t there for the admittedly cheesy but still sort of nice girl-power shot

-wong did nothing until the final battle. like him surviving the snap did nothing to impact the story

-why was okoye even on the poster? she should’ve gotten a bigger role imo

-WHAT was dr strange even doing holding back the water

-my brother (who watched the movie with me) thought that the lgbt rep in the movie was “america’s ass” rather than the gay russo in steve’s support group, which just goes to show that the lgbt rep is SO small and the media should really stop hyping it up. not really salt towards the movie itself but it’s still salt

-fortnite

general saltiness out of the way, i’m going to list what i did like about the movie

-those posts going around about how knowing the spoilers take away from the movie are actually really, really wrong. i went in knowing more than half the plot including who lives and dies and i still found it entertaining, to say the least. the movie had a lot of effort put into making it and it really shows. if you ignore the parts you don’t like, you can actually kick back and have a relatively good time

-also the action was really, really good. throughout the entire movie. it’s an avengers film, so the action has to be good, but the fights were still super awesome and a lot were actually a cut above the rest of the mcu (especially the melee fights)

-the final battle was amazing. up until the end, i was on the edge of my seat, because even though it’s another “big final battle against an army of cgi monsters” i actually really really liked it. pretty much everything was perfect about it, and it was so fun to watch the theater go ham whenever a hero did something badass.

-the score. god, the score. alan silvestri did so good with calling back motifs from other solo mcu movies (something marvel should’ve been doing the entire time). ant man’s theme after scott pops out of the quantum realm, captain america’s march when tony hands the shield back to steve, the reprise of “even for you” from infinity war during clint and nat’s mission to vormir, captain marvel’s theme when she blows up thanos’ ship? beautiful

-the actors did a superb job with everything they were given (which probably wasn’t that much). since the russos were paranoid about spoilers apparently no one knew who they were talking to which sucked? because the marvel cast is pretty good at improv lines. but the actors still did a REALLY good job despite this (and really do carry the movie). i felt in my BONES tony’s frustration and anger at steve during the wheelchair scene, thor’s pain and self-loathing when he reunited with frigga, and peter’s DESPAIR when he watched tony die (i will never be okay ever)

-the callbacks to previous mcu movies were fanservice, yeah, but it was the GOOD kind of fanservice in that it was really really cool and served the fans. it’s a great way for the last movie in the infinity saga to end, by revisiting some of the iconic places it touched on before

-tony and nebula! they were only together for the first scene of the movie but the scene with paper football was really soft and nice

-the civil war conflict was glossed over save for that one scene of tony going the fuck off on steve and i couldn’t be more grateful

-MORGAN STARK. god if i had the capacity to cry i’d be sobbing through writing this entire post. morgan and her soft dad made my heart MELT into pieces i love them 3000

-they still deserved better though

-scott. like in general. he was one of the highlights of the movie. his reunion with cassie was :’)

-carol’s haircut

-by the way a lot of people complained about her makeup in her first scene with the avengers shown in the trailers but it literally wasn’t a problem for any other carol scene in the movie (because that was the only scene in the entire runtime where she was wearing noticeable lipstick/eyeshadow or whatever)

-professor hulk. i actually didn’t expect to like him, but he made a lot of actually funny jokes and i liked his personality contrast with 2012 hulk. also he made scott tacos! he’s really wholesome and i’m willing to ignore the part where he dabbed

-the mark 85 is one of my favorite iron man suits now, even though it didn’t get a lot of screentime

-speaking of which it’s REALLY great how most of the time when tony saves the day it’s because of his smarts. it brings back the main theme of the character: tony stark, the human, plays ball with gods, aliens, and monsters just by being quick witted.

-the entire sequence of tony, steve, and scott getting the scepter and the tesseract was PURE gold. (it’s my favorite part of the movie honestly)

-tony: ok scott to create a distraction i need you to put my past self into cardiac arrest. \ scott: uhh. uhh ok dude?? \ tony: my self loathing is this strong

-rhodey and nebula! they were an awesome teamup and i really really liked their friendship/dynamic

-PEPPER IN RESCUE ARMOR. WE DIDN’T GET ENOUGH OF THAT BUT IT WAS SO GOOD I LOVED IT HER ARMOR DESIGN WAS REAL GREAT

-tony reuniting with peter. i teared up. legit. i teared up.

-thanos: *headbutts carol* \ carol: *doesn’t even move an inch*

-wanda was so badass in her 10 second scene. i just thought it was really cool

-peter using instant kill mode

-tony using the gauntlet was badass. i hated it but it was SO amazing at the same time i wanted to cry and cheer at the same time so i ended up in a semi catatonic state for the rest of the day

-the little wreath with the first arc reactor, morgan craving cheeseburgers, tony’s last message.....;-;

-i love you 3000.....:((((((

-SAM GETTING TO BE CAP. (this was one of the best parts of the all-new all-different avengers comic) even though i still don’t like steve’s ending, i love that sam is going to take up the mantle (and i’m super excited to see the falcon winter soldier show now)

-the movie ended with the soundtrack of tony building the mark 1 solidifying that none of this would’ve happened without iron man. good thing endgame credits said that maybe tony stan lives do matter

-a rat is responsible for saving half the universe and i find that REALLY funny. my favorite theory is that the rat was loki the whole time and that doubles the hilarity

tldr: the movie had an ending that didn’t really fit the characters, but the rest of it was fun to watch: the action scenes were great, the interactions between the characters were mostly good, and it’s overall pretty entertaining as a film by itself. as a closing to the infinity saga it feels unsatisfying, but as a movie it’s enjoyable

#endgame spoilers #avengers endgame #read my post it's good and coherent #i say some bad stuff about the movie but i also list the stuff i liked. see im cool

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storychecker-blog · 5 years

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The Fatal Flaws of Avengers: Endgame

No doubt, Endgame will be a financial success for Disney, and people are quick to sing praises to the (latest) swan song of the MCU. Is it an emotional good-bye? Sure. But it is also a movie that severely influences the reading of the MCU in its entirety. This essay focuses on two major narrative flaws introduced by Avengers: Endgame, and on how they undo important character development from the previous phases.

Here be spoilers.

1. Crushing Tony Stark’s Character Arc

The biggest issue I have with Endgame is Tony Stark’s death. There was always a good chance that Stark would die, especially since Downey’s contract was up, the Iron Man trilogy was finished some time ago, and his character arc was nearly complete. This particular death, though, just screams “economically driven” rather than natural conclusion.

Tony Stark started out as an egocentric billionaire who lived day to day, because he had no motivation and no vision. His pastimes were without a clear goal, without focus. As Yinsen puts it, the original Tony Stark is “a man who has everything and nothing.” As a billionaire, he has the money to finance every imaginable project: Yet, he is stumbling through life, drunk aimless, and ultimately, too scared to face the past or the future. This is a man without plans for the future.

Then, Afghanistan happens. The close encounter with death and the realization that he wants to live triggers his development arc: He yearns to find “loved ones” and to not waste his second chance, knowing that he has cheated death. This drives his relationship with Pepper, and later on, Peter Parker and his daughter. The secondary goal is to atone for his past negligence that hurt so many people: Now that Tony appreciates life, he internally struggles with the realisation that his careless behaviour had lasting, sometimes fatal consequences for others. This secondary struggle is about identity. Tony has to come to terms with his own past. Iron Man allows him to save the people in Gulmira, and it allows him to save the world from future threats. The suit does not allow him to go back to undo his mistakes. He also cannot find penance, because dead people cannot “forgive” anybody, even if they would. Therefore, Tony has to forgive himself, otherwise he cannot learn to let go of the nagging guilt that forces him into the armor again and again. Iron Man is a curse to him, because this superhero identity was born out of the desire to make up for his past actions. The culmination of his story, therefore, would be to retire for good, preferably to become a family man.

Now, Endgame does offer this as a solution for Tony Stark. However, he willingly decides to go back into battle, risk his future for the past, and subsequently dies. This destroys his character development, because it is exactly what happened in Civil War. As Tony pointed out to Steve, he had promised to give up the suit, to retire, but then another fight happened, and then another one, and he just didn’t settle down. Tony Stark, and that is what Endgame is saying, failed those that he loved. He leaves Pepper to fend for herself, breaking the one promise that she sought from him. Pepper did not want to have a child, unless he truly stayed and concentrated on the future rather than the past. He also failed his daughter, because he is an absentee father who merely leaves a message. Ultimately, he does not break away from his own father’s path: Howard also was absent from his son’s life by choice, and he left him a message, too little, too late.

Is it selfish to choose individuals over half of the universe? Yes. But it was not his duty to do so. It is a bleak picture indeed, to see him haunted by his past without redemption, forced to die to break the curse that being a hero was for him. Overall, it begs the question: Wasn’t Tony Stark happier without his conscience? If so, it was cruel to offer him a second chance, seeing as that he was cursed to have a bad ending without happiness, even if he ticked all the right boxes and made an effort to be better.

As it stands, his second chance was pointless. He had no choice to not waste his life, because his life was not his own. He was destined to die anyway.

Going back to save half the universe, that was a heroic thing to do. Him dying for that half of the universe, that is a good end for Endgame. But turning his back on those that he had a responsibility for, Pepper and Morgan, that just makes him into somebody who is still too afraid to face the future. He ran away from his family duties. And that is a terrible, a stunted ending for his character development.

2. Steve Rogers’ is a Greedy and Selfish Man

Steve Rogers’ Happy End is an incredibly selfish and disturbing development. First, it goes against everything that his trilogy was about. Steve had to come to terms with loss, he had to adapt to the “future” and to find purpose in said future. The reunion with his friend Bucky Barnes is the turning point of this character development, because they are both men out of their time, perpetually changed, and forced to face a new life. Essentially, following their reunion, there were two paths available, from a narrative point of view. The bad development has him become stuck in memories, in the past, with Bucky as a perpetual reminder of not belonging into the future. He would break and not cope with his grief. The good development would have him find closure now that he was able to speak to Bucky, the only person able to share his pain. He becomes the master of his grief.

Sending him back is a cheap way to deal with Steve Rogers. It does not resolve his arc, because we were denied the answer whether somebody can find happiness after such a dramatic loss or not. The movie evades the answer by throwing him into the past. It renders all previous installments pointless. Why have him adapt to the future anyway? It’s not a skill he really needed. It just goes down the drain: We are not shown that he struggled to adapt the past, either. And, most importantly, his relationship with Peggy Carter is incredibly selfish. She “had a good life”, according to herself, and she had found love in Daniel Sousa. Maybe it was not her first choice, but she was content. Steve decides to rob her of the decision what kind of future she prefers. He robs Daniel Sousa of his love, of his family. With which right? It makes Peggy into a prize to be won rather than a woman who made a life for herself.Did she deserve the pain of losing Steve Rogers in the first place? Certainly not. But she deserves to not have her fate be toyed with in such a way. He knows that Peggy was happy. The decision to approach her, to meddle with her future to satisfy his own emotional needs is incredibly selfish. The Cap I know would have pined from the sidelines.

And yes, some may claim that the time loop means Cap was the original husband. Well, he was not. I highly doubt Sharon would have made out with him if she knew they were related. Besides, Peggy’s speech about how “her only regret is that he didn’t get to live his life”, makes no sense whatsoever. Just like her comment on how “the world has changed and none of us can go back.” Peggy is telling him to live in the future, to let go of the past. I am sorry, but Civil War did not set up Steve as Peggy’s husband. This was retconned, and it takes away any sort of agency from Peggy. Worst of all, it is Steve who claims her like some sort of prize.

3. Conclusion

The infuriating, the frustrating thing is that there were easy solutions to resolve the narrative flaws. Assuming they wanted Steve to be an aged-up Cap and Tony dead, then just have Steve watch from the sidelines, and have Tony take the gauntlet from Pepper, thus “protecting the future” rather than the past. The current end, for both of the heavy hitters, is just disturbing and stupid and it takes away so much joy and character development from the MCU.

I am so done with the MCU right now. And both ends are not fixable. They screwed it up, like literally any of the big cinematic franchises that go down the time travel road. Yeah, Endgame may be a good movie, but as an installment to the MCU, it is sore disappointment. It just works against everything that has been established, and it tears it down. For what? For nothing, because both characters will not have another chance to get a satisfying conclusion to their character development.

#avengers endgame #avengers spoilers #tony stark #Steve Rogers #mcu #meta

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