#we're also getting madam yu and jiang fengmian i think | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

sasukimimochi · 1 year

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i wanna ramble about my view on JC but i'm so bad at words

so like, i see posts where people talk about these things JC does or WWX holds back from, i don't wanna go searching but also want to leave these details out cuz i don't want to accidentally call people out cuz that is not my intention (not that i have the audience to do something like that) so i'm just gonna go from my memory and kinda summarize what i think abt him...

gonna add a read more line bc this gets long!

Uh, btw please no hostility i'm not trying to start arguments, these are just my thoughts i really wanted to get out there. i'm definitely no therapist or psychologist so take this with a grain of salt, this is the view of just an average reader who retains a lot of info [tho still manages to miss details at times]. Anyway if you have info you think i should have addressed, reply and i'll make additions if i agree/want to expand on the info presented to me!

So, WWX and JC have a weird thing going on, it's not exactly brothers but they definitely wanted that, the reason why i say they aren't solidly brothers is because i'm pretty sure Madam Yu has influenced JC from the start of his arrival which is why he doesn't call wwx a-xian or Wei Ying or A-Ying- Why he doesn't allow himself to let loose properly around anyone even in private, why he constantly scolds wwx, etc. i believe firmly he's been quite influenced by his parents due to him being the next sect heir and the pressure that comes from it, as well as what he feels like madam yu is correct on- wwx is uncle jiang's favorite.

Madam Yu still chides Yanli for doing domestic acts for WWX but not on the same level as JC, who is constantly under pressure by her to be the perfect heir to the sect. She wants him to be better than WWX, which of course affects all of the family but Yanli gets left out of the fire a bit, which i think is what gives her such a strength to do these supportive acts for the brothers [and why she's also both the brother's favorite. She's basically the mom they wish for. Supportive, understanding, and helps mediate them]. Though this is a burden she has to bear, it's not that big of a burden to her because she loves the two so much.

Jiang Fengmian... i might be spelling his name wrong, so i'll call him Uncle Jiang cuz it will be faster for me to type with no mistakes haha. Anyway, I have complicated feelings about him.

At first i thought he was great and did no wrong, but that was on my first pass and when i had just watched the donghua only. My opinion of him since i read the novel isn't bad, but it's not super good. He's in a complicated position! There's only so much he can do about his wife, they argue super often and while its not usually crazy loud, it's pretty intense. [also, i'm not sure if separation is really a thing that happened back then, i think that's really a modern thing.] I feel like we're likely seeing Uncle Jiang's will to fight dimmed down by the wear of time.

Consider: you have a family member who won't ever listen to what you say, regardless how sound your argument is- you can be completely in the right and have all the facts, but no matter how long you press on, the result never changes. Do you put in the same amount of effort for the rest of your life? No! You understand that no matter how much you argue that their answer will remain the same. I personally have a family member like this, and while i defend myself regularly, it does not go anywhere. That is the nature of some people, no matter what they may not treat your view with the respect it deserves.

anyway back to the main line here, i dont think wwx is wrong about what he said regarding JF to JC. "he's just hard on you cuz you're going to be sect leader" or whatever it was along those lines- WWX does not seem like the type to lie to make someone feel better and i think this is why JC appreciates that conversation so much (besides the heartfelt twin prides which is obviously something that stuck to him for a long time). And i agree, JF is definitely trying to prepare Jiang Cheng for his position as sect leader one day.

do i think Uncle Jiang is completely guilt free of favoritism? No absolutely not, he canonically holds wwx more as a child, which i think is hard to argue against- but i do think the context of that is missed in part by most. WWX may have been a bright kid with sun shining out his ass but he was also a scared kid that just got rescued off the streets after his parents never came home. A kid that was fighting for food from dogs and likely starving and scared because he was on the street for like 5 years [if i remember it was from age 4 to 9 in the novel]. Of course he got held a bit more- i can't imagine he would be completely unphased immediately upon arrival, at least with his Uncle Jiang who was totally willing to provide him comfort- which wwx probably desperately missed from his now dead parents. We know canonically that the memory of those parents, however small, is unreplaceable and dear to wwx- but having JF treat him dearly is truly a balm to what has happened to him.

I'm not gonna say JC didn't go through things that made him cry and want to be held, in fact if WWX came into the house and suddenly got a lot of attention, it's going to feel pretty shitty for JC! Of course this combined with abruptly losing his privacy and puppies was what initially had him pushing the other away, but as you could see, after WY breaks his leg after running off and they make up, they get really close and despite this looming responsibility and family troubles, the two are very bonded. imo making them look like 6 year olds in the donghua is an injustice to their relationship, because 9 year olds tend tend to have more emotional intelligence (?) at that age. I'm not sure how to phrase that, but basically making them look younger and act like giggling children took away from the scene a bit for me lol. Jc is old enough to realize he doesn't dislike wwx! This isn't a child quickly getting over his anger, he's young here yes, but he's decided in this moment that he cares about this new member of the family, despite being called the son of a servant. [which yes madam yu is once again influencing his view of this segregation but i think he is much better at ignoring this particular in his youth]

I am rambling more than i thought i would lmao- i have a lot of feelings about their relationship and i think it's skipped over so much

um, i'm not sure which direction i was going in before i went onto the parents. Let's skip forward.

lotus pier fell and not only did JC see wwx get humiliated and whipped and nearly disfigured, his mother who he was about to lose blamed wwx for so much. When you lose a family member you have an attachment to, whether it bad or good, this influences your thoughts about them and with no way to resolve said thoughts. i find this hard to explain, so i'm just going to hope you understand what i'm referring to here. Especially in ancient china though, i believe it's a big thing to hold such a high regard for your parents, but especially if they have passed? i can't say this is fact but i believe that is the case i just am sticking to my memory here. So these things in combination with Trauma, i believe starts this heavy, negative emotion in JC that is hard to unstick.

JC and WWX may get into a one-sided scuffle but soon after they cry together like children. They just experienced hundreds of lives lost- people they grew up with and trained with and cared for as well as the people who provided and cared for them- their family was unstable, but still was a family and support system- now they had only two people and one of them was far away, the one that was typically their pillar. I feel like a lot of people hold JC to an impossible standard in his situation- having a bad day and taking it out on someone is one thing, going through a traumatic massacre i think allows someone to get a bit unreasonable [though of course nearly choking him was quite far, remember, he's extremely unstable emotionally at this point].

"WWX didn't do that though!" of course not. WWX is a different person with a different personality, is older (though i don't know by how much), and is extremely resilient, but he does process his trauma just differently. As you see over and over in the novel, wwx goes through many things others wouldn't dream of, but he starts acting differently even before the golden core removal, not only after. He's going through the same things, but i'm pretty sure no one reacts to trauma the same way to the T. JC's just happens to be misplaced anger, which is probably way too simple a way to put it, but anyway...wwx also gets angry. very angry. The two both have the correct target of anger in the end, despite Jc's breakdown. He still harbors his mother's words, but at this point they're still in the background of his mind.

Now again we go forward- JC willingly sacrifices himself for WWX. Look, if he doesn't like wwx at all i think this is extremely contradictory. even if he was s*icidal, he could have chose other ways to get to that end if that was the case. and a gentle reminder that JC perks back up and is ready to fight once he believes WWX knows how to fix his core! i don't think he was truly wanting to die or anything like that until he thought he had lost everything except wwx and jyl. He believes in wwx's strength despite his constant fear of inferiority, so if he was gone, what would it matter if wwx was there to continue to protect yanli?

Essentially he was like 'well what are we going to do if i can't lead the sect? We would be in a homeless situation and there is a war.' aka there's not a lot of hope all around, i don't think he was only upset about the core, but it was definitely the main force because if he didn't have a core, how would he survive what was happening anyway? he's like 'if i'm gonna die let it be on my terms' yk? He also doesn't feel like he's strong enough before he lost his core to protect anyone. Without it? fat chance.

whew... this is a lot already, so maybe i'll post this and do a part two later addressing YLLZ arc, then the "present" one. i just have a lot of feelings about their relationship and i'm sad to see so much negativity around him...JC is quite flawed, but a lot of the characters are flawed! that doesn't make them bad characters, it makes them interesting and human.

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fincalinde · 1 year

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qi rong! i kid, i kid. how about jc.

I will ignore your cruel taunting and focus on my viniferous darling.

a song that reminds me of them

I don't think I have a personal anthem for him, but En Fortapt Bror (A Prodigal Brother) by Rotvelt would probably go on the playlist if I made one, just for this bit alone:

Kan ikke ta det tilbake Kan ikke få du gjort Jeg vil ikke ha tilgivelse Det vil ikke vaske det bort

Can't take it back Can't get you done I don't want forgiveness It won't wash it away

what they smell like

If we're getting poetic, like lotus fragrance and ozone.

an otp

No one in the cast is right for JC but I do think he wants and deserves a suitable wife so I like the idea of reading something where he's in a relationship. His problem is that he needs just, so much therapy before he can make an effective life partner for anyone. He features in this postcanon AU I wrote and that's a reasonable depiction of how I think things could shake out for him after many years have passed if he's worked on himself. Basically, I know his extracanonical list of qualities he requires in a wife is meant to be humorous, but I tried to incorporate them into an OC while also making her a match for him.

I dabbled in reading Sangcheng because I am a slave to @starwife and like, in theory, many many many many many years postcanon who knows what might happen? And mightn't that be interesting? Sadly I have come to the conclusion that it's too much of a stretch and isn't my cup of tea. Pls forgive

a notp

I was racking my brain to think of a JC pairing I kneejerk hate beyond the general 'well, he isn't really compatible with any of the characters we meet' stance and then I realised I had forgotten Xicheng exists. Pause for audience laughter.

What can I even add here? It's based on nothing and it's not even like there's the intelligence of a thoughtful resistant read behind it. The laziest possible pair the spares approach taken by people whose reading comprehension is so poor they think JGY is an irredeemable cackling villain and WWX is a noble woobie. Thankfully it's easy for me to avoid and therefore ironically ends up irritating me less than bad Xiyao in practice.

favorite platonic/familial relationships

I love his relationship with his mother. She's just horrendous to him and I don't think he ever has any concrete evidence she loves him until their final moments together, but what I find most interesting and realistic is that he seems to understand her. He can see why she is who she is, which doesn't in any way mitigate the damage she does but is an important part of their dynamic because it's an element of why he defends her and it contributes to how he internalises her criticisms.

My favourite JC and YZY moment is this:

Jiang Cheng was stuck between his father and his mother. After a moment of hesitation, he moved to his mother’s side. Holding his shoulders, Madam Yu pushed him forward for Jiang FengMian to see, “Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this, is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! … I don’t believe for one second that you haven’t heard of how the outside people gossips, that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they’re speculating if Wei Ying is your…”

YZY emotionally, verbally and sometimes physically abuses her son. She is failing him as a mother and as a mentor. But she is not failing him as badly as JFM is failing him, and everything she says here is completely correct. And when JC and WWX talk about it afterwards, JC is also correct. WWX and LWJ kill the Xuanwu of Slaughter and no one cares or gives JC credit for his less glamorous contributions. His own father prefers WWX and doesn't even like him, and that is appalling.

WWX means well by trying to gloss over it, but it's an open secret and pretending it's not true is harmful. YZY is also going about it all wrong, but she's the only person who calls JFM out directly for failing his son. Pot, kettle, but there's a reason why when JC is stuck between his parents he ends up going over to his mother's side.

a headcanon that is popular in the fandom but that i disagree with

I'm going to go radical here and say I don't personally enjoy or want to read any postcanon Twin Heroes reconciliation. The novel is pretty final about how things end up for them, and it's my belief that they are both far better off not being in each other's lives any more. It's sad because they were close as brothers and love each other so deeply, but ultimately it's for the best. They both appear to be in agreement about this.

the position they sleep in

Probably looks all super cool and handsome when he sleeps, but unfortunately not quite as super cool and handsome as WWX.

a crossover au i’d love to see them in

Puella Magi Madoka Magica. Can you imagine.

my favorite outfit they’ve ever worn

We all know I'm MDZS first in almost everything, but I'm not a huge fan of JC's hair in the official art. Besides, it cracks me up that JC is far and away the most stylish member of the cast in CQL, and yet there's no indication that it's actually an interest of his. CQL NHS wearing his same basic bitch grey and white yet again while CQL JC swaggers past in his shoulder pads owning the entire world—amazing. How could I pick a favourite? I do like his official photo look though, because the gold looks great with the purple.

#ask #testblog-54 #roquen meta #i am team jc finding some measure of peace #so that he can become his best self #in time to meet a wife who thinks he's the bees knees #and have so many jiang babies #jiang clan revival!#pls he's the only one of my faves who has even a shred of hope left #for possibly being reasonably happy way down the line #let me have this

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madtomedgar · 1 year

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umm genderbend 3zun (obviously) and yanli? (maybe lan qiren?)

unfortunately sometimes my genderbend thoughts on a particular character are "no." And to me, Nie Mingjue's character is so intrinsically wrapped up in toxic hyper-masculinity that I just can't make it work. Like. Part of my philosophy of gender-bends is that a character's relationship to gender should be mirrored. So a very gender-conforming character should stay gender conforming. A character that is perceived as effeminate should in a genderbend be seen as kind of manly or unladylike or like. crude/harsh/rough in that particular "failing at woman" way. And with Nie Mingjue and characters like him, they just can't fill the same role in the story as a devotee and enforcer of the worst aspects of femininity. I know a lot of people love "butch" f!Nie Mingjue, by they mean "big muscly woman with an undercut," and like. I hate that. To me it's reminiscent of a particular type of butch fetishization where we are seen as like. Big, hypermasculine canvases to project fantasies onto, and also a collection of negative stereotypes where we're angry, violent, kind of dumb, gruff, pushy, negging, dominant, with no real feelings or desires beyond the erotic fantasy and the psychosexual repulsion etc. So. Those are my feelings on r63 3zun. Lan Xichen and Jin Guangyao as women is the best, but he just... he can only be a guy. I could get behind a trans guy Nie Mingjue who has bought into the worst parts of masculinity and thinks by going as hard as he can in that direction he can completely rid himself of any lingering trans-ness, but that is definitely not my story to tell or explore, yknow.

In terms of Yanli. I also don't love taking the one or two women in a cast of men and... making them men also. What, were there not enough men here already? But, ok. Madam Yu's firstborn, and he's... ah. He's ill. He's weak. He's sweet and sensitive, and he wants... oh no. He wants to be a Scholar. Where did those genes even come from what the fuck. I think a lot about how this goes though depends on whether or not Jiang Cheng is also gender-bent, and if Jin Zixuan is gender-bent, and what's going on with Wei Wuxian. Because sickly nerd m!Yanli and f!Jiang Cheng who is... Jiang Cheng and canon Wei Wuxian is basically Madam Yu's personal nightmare and that'll be a Whole Fun Thing. But if Jiang Cheng is still himself, and Wei Wuxian is still himself... I think Wei Wuxian might be more annoying to her but less threatening. I don't think m!Jiang Yanli would be a Mei Changsu mastermind type, he's just a fucking nerd in a family of jocks. He's writing poetry to praise Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian's exploits and doing really interesting things with it that you only get if you know a lot of literary theory. He is like. Mr. Older Brother but has no interest or ability to be the heir. Idk Jiang Yanli is also hard because so much of her character is just... feminine domesticity and passivity. And like. You could keep that but that's just a bodyswap OR it's a very different character because then they have Gender Issues bigtime, as opposed to having issues of like... conforming too well. Idk if that makes sense.

... Actually I could get behind trans woman Jiang Yanli. That would be AMAZING. Like. oh man. ok. Her brothers are both like "yes this is our sister duh. do you need glasses are you stupid do you want to die." Jiang Fengmian is like... well he can either have a failson or he can have a daughter who is... fine. So sure, let the kid be happy. Yeah ok it burns out the golden core a bit to make their body conform to their spirit like that but whatever, this kid was never going to be a great cultivator, this way she's happy. Jin Zixuan is like. A mega dickhead about it and the Yunmeng brothers are Going To Murder Him in this life and the next :D. (Jiang Yanli wishes they would stop because all it does is draw more attention to this and she just... she just wants to be a normal girl.) Jin Zixuan comes around post-sunshot and realizes he was a mega-dickhead and that Jiang Yanli is the best woman alive, actually. And Madam Yu. Oof. The thing is she would be much cooler, proud and happy even, if Jiang Yanli took after her. But from her perspective, Jiang Fengmian let one of her sons become weak and useless on purpose to insult her specifically, and now her daughter is setting herself up to be a defenseless laughingstock and doormat, and everyone will blame her for it. So she is awful about it. And like... Jiang Yanli was just never going to be a warrior, or a hero, or a strong assertive person, because that's just not who she is. She just wants to love people and have her family close, and make food, and take care of kids, and it's... not about gender but it kind of is, but not like her mother thinks. She gets exactly what she wants in the end, and nothing bad ever happens to her or Jin Zixuan or Jin Ling (Wei Wuxian created a method to have magic babies just for shijie). Yeah. This, I love.

#untamed stuff #rule 63 #every day i lose more respect for nie mingjue #i like. rarely do stuff with making characters trans #mostly because like. it's not my story to tell and #i worry about fucking it up yknow #so if i have indeed fucked it up i am very sorry #and if you feel up to it please let me know so i don't do it again #yeah

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ailelie · 1 year

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Saw a fic that said it was a fusion of 9-1-1 and The Untamed and it got me thinking how I'd do it.

We're going with a Daniel Lives!AU and we're shortening the amount of time that Wei Wuxian is out of pocket.

So! Buck is adopted into the Jiang family by Jiang Fengmian over his wife's protests while their son is in the hospital with cancer. (I know Yanli is the sickly one but this works better).

Out of sheer desperation, Wei Ying is also tested as a match and he is one. He donates marrow to save Jiang Cheng's life. This does not, however, earn him any love from Madame Yu. Instead of being outright abusive, though, she is dismissive and distant.

The siblings end up raising each other. The family expectation is that they go into medicine. Jiang Yanli becomes a nurse practitioner because she likes managing people, liaising with patients, etc. Jiang Cheng becomes a doctor. He goes for surgeon, but actually prefers pediatrics (which is where he'll end up after Wei Wuxian leaves).

Wei Wuxian becomes a paramedic, which Madame Yu scorns.

Jiang Yanli marries into the Jin family. Jin Zixuan is not abusive, but his father and cousin are. She hides this though to maintain familial harmony. She finds out that her father-in-law is blackmailing the Wen family and tells Wei Wuxian. (They are all friends with the Wens in this AU as Jiang Cheng and Wen Qing went to med school together and aren't dating, but both Jiang Yanli and Wei Wuxian expect it is only a matter of time).

(In this world, Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan did not know each other in childhood. Wei Wuxian knows his family name, but likely thinks of him as Ajie's A-Xuan Who Doesn't Deserve Her).

Wei Wuxian helps the Wens escape the city. He expects Jiang Yanli to join him, but she tells him she has something else she needs to do. After he leaves, she tells her husband about the abuse and blackmail. They begin working together to escape his father as well.

Wei Wuxian sends postcards to both of his siblings. After the Wens meet up with family in Southern California, Wei Wuxian keeps driving and trying new experiences. He likes to help people and gets drawn to places where he can help. He doesn't mean to stay away for so long, but he hopes his disappearance also draws the Jin fire and keeps his sister safe. It is not a good plan, to be honest.

But then, while swinging through to check on the Wens, he sees a poster about training to be a firefighter and, considering he already has paramedic experience, he signs up. He moves in with the Wens.

The leader of the firehouse is, say, Uncle Four or another patriarch of the Wen family. Wei Wuxian's co-workers are Jin Zixuan who is going by Yu Zixuan these days and Mianmian (who Wei Wuxian never met). Wei Wuxian does not recognize him.

Zixuan, of course, immediately texts his wife (who is a 911 operator). (After the Wens left, he and Yanli released a lot of information about his father to the media and then ran. They've lived in a few places hiding from his dad. When they learned the Wens were in southern California, they moved there, but they're using Yanli's mother's maiden name to hide.)

Yanli tells Jiang Cheng who now has even more reason to leave the east coast and then goes to pick up her husband after his and Wei Wuxian's shift. Wei Wuxian is ecstatic and confused to see his sister. They share stories.

Then, in his second year, Jiang Cheng finally completes his move and joins the hospital where Wen Qing works. He is in pediatrics. She's a surgeon. They start getting lunches again, which leads their siblings to once again begin speculating.

This is also when Lan Wanji joins the fire station. And Lan Wanji has a young son he has adopted and, tired of his family's expectations and disappointment for adopting while single, he decided to move to LA where he has recently learned his son has some extended family.

This family, of course, are the Wens.

And he and Wei Wuxian get off on the wrong foot, but then slowly have their lives wrapped together tightly. And, Wei Wuxian never planned to move out of the Wen home (even after stumbling across his half-dressed brother too early one morning), but he slowly and unintentionally moves into Lan Wanji and A-Yuan's home bit by bit. But it still takes him a ridiculously long time to realize he loves Lan Wanji and that that love is mutual.

#mzds #plot bunny #wwx/lwj #jc/wq #jyl/jzx #9-1-1 fusion

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shijiujun · 4 years

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NEW CHARACTERS WE’RE GETTING IN MDZSQ 11-20 + YILING LAOZU WWX!!!!

#mdzs #mdzsq #mdzs q #mdzs donghua #wei wuxian #wen qing #ah yuan #wen ning #jiang yanli #we're also getting madam yu and jiang fengmian i think #ep 11 #hahahahaha

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incarnadinedreams · 2 years

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So I came across this truly spectacular take in the MDZS subreddit a few weeks ago, and it has been wiggling around in my brain since then. An unrelated twitter thread about "worst takes you've ever seen" inspired me. (Not actually the worst take I've seen, somehow.)

Regarding Jiang Cheng getting captured by the Wens to save Wei Wuxian:

The situation w/ JC getting captured by the Wen is a little more complicated. As happened so often with JC, his desire to blame WWX for things that weren't WWX's fault caused him to misread the situation pretty badly. He assumed the Wen would treat him better than WWX because he was the heir--and now the leader--of the Jiang. He still suffered from the delusion that the Wen had come to Lotus Pier to punish WWX, and not because they were trying to conquer the Jianghu.

So yes, he took WWX's place and suffered the consequences... but he did so thinking that the consequences would be a lot lighter. He let his grievances obscure his judgment. Constantly.

When someone else, in confusion, asked why JC would think he’d get better treatment, considering they’d just killed his parents, their response was:

Jiang Cheng did not know that at the time. When he was captured, it was right after his mom sent him down the river--they didn't find out what happened to the Jiangs until after JC was brought back to Lotus Pier as a captive.

I also have to freely admit part of why I'm still salty about this particular exchange is because this user openly stated in a different thread that they think anyone who likes Jiang Cheng lacks reading comprehension and doesn't understand what actually happened in the novel.

I find that to be really quite something to accuse people of, given the argument they proceeded to make, but here we are. It's not an uncommon sentiment anyway.

The obvious place to begin with refuting this is that they are, quite simply, just plain wrong about what happens in the novel. They clearly just forgot the sequence of events. Which, fair enough! It's a long and complex novel, both in what's actually written and what we're forced to infer along the way, and usually I try to be understanding of how easy it is to mix things up. So I do try to focus on the spirit of the argument as well as the pedantic details.

But in this case, what actually happened is… kind of important.

Dare I even suggest that perhaps... their grievances with Jiang Cheng have obscured their judgment? Maybe even... caused them to misread the situation pretty badly?

But it actually got me thinking and looking back at quotes in chapters I hadn't touched in a while, so it sort of took hold in my brain. And I thought: what if this person were right about what information Jiang Cheng knew at the moment he made his choice, if they didn’t know JFM & YZY were dead yet? Would I possibly agree with their assessment if that were true? (Spoiler alert: lol. no.)

So that's why I'm actually going to address it in two parts:

Quick recap of what actually happened in the novel (with receipts), and

Why I also completely disagree with the spirit of their argument

Warning, it gets extremely long! All quotes are from the ExR translation since the official hasn't reached these chapters yet.

1) What Actually Happened In the Book

A quick recap (summarized from chapters 57-59):

The Wens show up, Madam Yu throws down. She sends them off, bound with Zidian in a boat, telling them to go straight to Meishan. They encounter Jiang Fengmian, who also sends them off bound with Zidian, and instructs them to go straight to Meishan.

Spoiler alert: they do not go straight to Meishan.

As soon as Zidian releases them, they turn right around and paddle their way back to Lotus Pier. They peek over the walls, observe lots of Wens walking around and piles of Jiang corpses, and overhear Wang Lingjiao whining about how Wen Zhuliu wouldn't let her slap Madam Yu's corpse.

They run away, Jiang Cheng has the first of many breakdowns, and this is the scene where Jiang Cheng blames Wei Wuxian for drawing the Wen's attention to the Jiang sect, and where he tries to turn back to go retrieve his parents' bodies. At this point it's made abundantly clear they know exactly what has happened to YZY & JFM (ch. 59):

Jiang Cheng shook his hand away, "Don't go back there?! Are you serious? You're telling me not to go back there? My parents' bodies are still in Lotus Pier—could I leave just like this? Where could I go if I don't go back?!"

Wei WuXian's grip tightened, "What could you do if you go back now? They've killed even Uncle Jiang and Madam Yu. All that's waiting for you is death!"

Jiang Cheng shouted, "Death it is, then! If you're scared of death then get lost—don't block my path!"

Wei Wuxian stops him and promises they'll get revenge - and the bodies - later. Jiang Cheng spirals further down into shock and misery and bitterly asking Wei Wuxian why he saved Lan Wangji in the cave at the price of their sect and all of that.

At dawn, they finally set off towards Meishan, obviously in shock and traumatized. We get this fun quote that I am including here almost entirely just because it's one of my favorite sad Jiang Cheng passages and it's my post so I can:

Jiang Cheng's head had always been lowered. Hugging his right hand, he pressed Zidian onto his chest where his heart was, feeling over and over again the only remnant of his family that was left. He'd also often looked back toward where Lotus Pier was, staring at what used to be his home and had now become a den of demons. Again and again, it was as though he'd never get enough of it, as though he'd never lose that last spark of hope. However, the tears within his eyes could never be contained either.

After half a day of walking, Wei Wuxian decides to go get some food, and tells Jiang Cheng to sit and wait for him. When he comes back, Jiang Cheng is gone, and this is where Wei Wuxian assumes that Jiang Cheng went back to Lotus Pier to retrieve his parents' bodies. Not an entirely unreasonable assumption, given what had happened the night before, but it ends up being an incorrect one nonetheless. It's not until we find out at the end of ch. 110 that's not what happened:

That, back then, I wasn't caught by the Wen Sect because I wanted to go back to Lotus Pier to retrieve my parents' corpses. That, at the town we passed on our way, when you were buying food, a group of Wen Sect cultivators caught up. That, I discovered them early and left where I sat, hiding at the corner of the street and didn't get caught, but they were patrolling the streets and would soon run into you outside.

That this was why I ran out and distracted them.

So at both points in the novel, it's made repeatedly, explicitly clear that he knew his parents were dead when he made that decision. I don't think anyone is really debating that at all except this one random person on reddit, apparently, but there we have it.

Anyway, now that that’s out of the way…

2. Why They'd Still Be Wrong Even If They Were Right

So let's suppose for a while that things had gone differently. What if they hadn't gone back and seen the bodies, what if they'd followed instructions but were still caught on the way to Meishan? In such a scenario, would it still be reasonable to infer these things about Jiang Cheng's decision-making process and motivations, does the spirit of their argument hold up at all even if the actual events destroy it?

The first point I'll address is that Jiang Cheng was suffering from delusions about the Wen's intentions.

Prior to their even going to the Wen indoctrination camp, it's pretty clear that they all knew basically what the Wens were up to (ch. 51):

This demand of the Qishan Wen Sect was one that they couldn't turn down. Countless precedents could prove that if any sect dared defy their orders, it would be accused of strange things such as being 'rebellious' or 'destructive.' And, with these as reasons, they would wipe it out fair and square.

I don't believe we actually get any details before this point about what those 'countless precedents' are, but it certainly casts a very ominous, high-stakes background tension to the indoctrination camp. Even if you dismiss how the Nie sect feels regarding the Wens at this point, there still appear to be plenty of other examples of what the Wen's M.O. was in-universe that we're just not privy to as readers.

This clearly informed Jiang Cheng's 'keep your head down and get through it' approach to the entire thing, which he starts emphasizing before they even leave Lotus Pier.

Then, during the camp, they hear about the burning of the Cloud Recesses (ch. 52):

One of the disciples beside them whispered, "Of course his face isn't so great. Last month, the Cloud Recesses was burnt down. You didn't know yet, did you?"

Hearing this, Wei WuXian jolted, "Burnt down?!"

In the past few days, Jiang Cheng had heard too many of these stories, so he wasn't as surprised as Wei WuXian was, "By the Wen Sect's people?"

This once again implies there were even more sects getting some totally friendly visits from the Wens that Jiang Cheng has been hearing about. But here, the Wens haven't just burnt down random minor sect #2731, they've blatantly attacked another one of the Five Great Sects. While the Lans weren't annihilated, the Wens gravely injured the sect leader, broke the leg of one of his sons, and forced them to burn their own sect's buildings down.

After the murder-snurtle cave incident, at the end of ch. 56 and beginning of ch. 57, prior to the Wen's arrival, they're discussing Lan Wangji's post-cave condition, Qingheng-jun passing away, and Lan Xichen being missing. Jiang Cheng is the one telling Wei Wuxian about these things!

Nobody thinks the Wens are playing around, least of all Jiang Cheng. It's his very real (and ultimately accurate) fear of the Wen's ire driving much of his behavior in this arc of the story. Whether or not you like him for those decisions, it didn't involve suffering delusions about the stakes involved or what the Wens were getting up to.

So that leads us to ch. 59, where even in the very scene this person is referencing regarding Jiang Cheng blaming Wei Wuxian, it directly says that it's not that he thinks the Wens are only there to punish Wei Wuxian, but rather that if he hadn't drawn their attention they might have had more time to prepare:

In his heart, Jiang Cheng knew clearly that back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter at Dusk-Creek Mountain, even if Wei WuXian hadn't saved Lan WangJi, the Wen Sect would have found some reason to come over sooner or later. But he had always felt that, if the whole thing with Wei WuXian didn't happen, maybe it wouldn't have been so soon, maybe there would've been some way to turn things around.

It was this torturing thought that filled his heart with hatred and wrath. Unable to be let out, they cut up his innards.

While I don't think Jiang Cheng (or Madam Yu) blaming Wei Wuxian for what happened at Dusk Creek Mountain and then the Jiang sect's massacre is fair, he's also traumatized and in shock and clearly not in his right mind. It is very much in line with the sorts of things that people deep in the early stages of trauma and grief tend to think (there's a reason they've got all those 'stages of grief' mapped out and they include denial and anger!). Especially not helped by the fact his mother's parting words were echoing many of those sentiments. Not a nice time for anyone involved!

Despite that, he still isn't actually suffering from the specific delusion they're claiming he is. But I suppose that's getting a bit pedantic and specific.

I am also genuinely baffled by the assertion that if he didn't yet know his parents were dead, he would for some reason assume that the Wens would treat him leniently.

The Lans did far less to anger them than the Jiangs have just done. Between Wei Wuxian holding Wen Chao hostage at sword-point with death threats at the murder-snurtle cave and Madam Yu having just directly attacked Wang Lingjiao and Wen Zhuliu and killed a bunch of Wen cultivators just before they'd been sent off, why on earth would Jiang Cheng assume they would be lenient on him?

The situation was serious enough that both of his parents had just respectively hugged him and pat him on the head for like, practically the first time ever in his life. He knows some really, really horrible bad shit is going down when both of his parents manage to do and say something nice to him, one right after the other! That is not normal for him! (Plus the other pretty uncool stuff they said to Wei Wuxian about protecting Jiang Cheng even if he dies doing it, so, you know. Not exactly giving off 'everything is totally fine here' vibes.)

I get that this person thinks Jiang Cheng is really stupid (they actually say that in a different comment), but even Jin fucking Zixun could've managed to put two and two together on this one. Rocket surgery it ain't, he would absolutely know either way that the Wens are not going to sit around the campfire with him singing kumbaya after a light slap on the wrist.

That leads us to the essential core of their argument that I think is the most interesting to consider: that if he had known when he decided to take Wei Wuxian's place that the Wen had actually killed his parents and might kill him, he would never have made that choice.

I mean, obviously he did and he did, so… that's just wrong. But again, playing with the AU idea that he didn't know about his parents yet at this specific moment, I still think it's a very weird conclusion to come to.

I think the core of this idea is a very fundamental misunderstanding of Jiang Cheng's whole deal. Jiang Cheng does have a very strong and specific idea of who he will stick his neck out for, and who he will not.

If people simply don't like that aspect of his character, then fair enough! That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have about him, based on what he actually does in the actual book, even if it's not something I'm particularly bothered about myself. That point is always going to be a matter of personal taste in fictional sad little men.

But where I disagree is the assumption that he's fundamentally selfish and always unwilling to do anything to help the people he cares about and is responsible for. We are shown that he is, over and over again, willing to sacrifice himself for those people.

Jiang Cheng is also, to either his credit or his detriment depending on your personal feelings about it, actually extremely consistent about who is and isn't in that group at any given point in the story. That list of people does not include Mianmian. It does not include Lan Wangji or Jin Zixuan at the Xuanwu cave. It definitely does not include the Wen remnants.

But it does, over and over again, include Wei Wuxian (and the rest of his family), until it can't include him anymore.

We see this pretty clearly at the Xuanwu cave in ch. 52. As soon as Wei Wuxian actually gets injured by Wang Lingjiao (with the branding iron), he flips from 'don't cause trouble, keep your head down' mode to this:

Jiang Cheng chased over to fight Wen ZhuLiu. Wen Chao saw that his eyes were bloodshot and had on a terrifying expression. The rest of the disciples had also been excited, and there was still a gigantic beast inside the pool, the front-left claw of which had already stepped onto the shore. Wen Chao finally began to fear, "Retreat, retreat. Retreat right now!"

I'm actually not even including the part where he dives into a pool of water with a pissed off murder-snurtle in it, presumably also with a couple centuries of snurtle poop too, to facilitate rescuing everyone, since that also counts as saving himself. Though he does come back for the other batches of people after he finds the cave opening.

Much like his own father, I'm also not counting the whole running nonstop for days to fetch help thing, since nobody ever died from a little cardio and nobody cares.

And when the Wens show up, he has to be physically restrained by Yinzhu and Jinzhu to keep him from trying to stop Madam Yu from whipping Wei Wuxian (ch. 57):

Madam Yu had already stood up. Zidian had turned into its whip form, sizzling between her hands of cold jade. She shouted, "Jiang Cheng, move out of the way, or you'll be kneeling too!"

Wei WuXian tried to get up, pushing against the ground, "Jiang Cheng, move over! Don't worry about me!"

[...]

Jiang Cheng was held firmly back by Jinzhu and Yinzhu.

There's way more but like, the whole scene is him trying to interfere to protect Wei Wuxian, so if I quote it all I'd just be reposting half the chapter. He also, later in the same confrontation, takes a blow to the shoulder from Wen Zhuliu to protect his mother.

And then, well, this whole being willing to die for him at the hand of the Wens thing, but we're pretending for now that wasn't a choice he made even if he very much did.

The point is, this list includes Wei Wuxian until it doesn't anymore. Until Jiang Cheng feels it can't anymore, and even then he's angry that he feels doesn't have a choice in that. And when it happens, he even says it directly to Wei Wuxian with advanced warning that he is no longer on the list! That was the whole point of his 'flower that blooms alone' speech in ch. 73, where he straight up said, "If you insist on protecting them, I can't protect you."

That's actually an impressively organized and specific "will I die for you?" mental list he's got going on here! Again, perfectly fine if someone's not a fan of that approach in a character, but most of the time people don't provide advanced and specific warning about getting taken off such a list!

If you won't give him points for heroism, at least give him a few points for clarity and organization with that one.

Obviously, it also includes Jin Ling. In ch. 81 (the second siege), we've got the scene where Jiang Cheng tries to give Zidian to Jin Ling, in a very obvious parallel to the night his mother gave it to him. There's the clear implication that he expects to die in short order protecting him.

Thankfully, Jin Ling is simply not having it, nope, no thank you, we're just not doing that today jiujiu:

Jin Ling had never seen so many fierce corpses before, much less at such a close distance. He could feel his scalp tingle, clenching the sword hilt of Suihua. Yet, suddenly, his fist was peeled open, and a cold object was stuffed inside. He looked down in surprise, "Uncle?"

Jiang Cheng propped himself up with Sandu, which had lost its spiritual energy. His figure wavered slightly, "Try losing Zidian and see what happens!"

[...]

When Jiang Cheng was unaware, he stuffed Zidian's ring back into his hand and sprinted toward the crowd, all the way up to the most dangerous area before the mouth of the cave. Jiang Cheng was about to chase after him when he managed to slice a few corpses, staggering. He felt that Sandu was no lighter than hundreds of pounds.

And Wei Wuxian appears to have just gone right back on the list at some point! Because by ch. 82, Jiang Cheng tries to go back into the cave full of corpses to… do something. I'm not sure if Jiang Cheng himself even knows his end goal in this scene, or what he's even capable of doing to actually help in his current state, but he's certainly doing some kind of putting himself in grave danger and likely death for Wei Wuxian and he's in a bad mood about it!

All of these corpses were attracted to the flag on Wei WuXian, staring at that one direction with red eyes and ignoring them.

Jin Ling shouted, "Uncle! I..."

Jiang Cheng's voice was drenched in ice, "If you dare go back there, don't call me your uncle anymore."

Jin Ling stared at him hard. Jiang Cheng threw him onto the ground, shouting, "Stay here!" He himself, on the other hand, took up Sandu and rushed back inside the Demon-Slaughtering Cave.

Jin Ling paused in hesitation before calling after him, "Uncle, wait for me!" Despite the warning, he still followed.

He definitely could've just left with Jin Ling at that point. I would even argue it probably would've been the more Responsible Uncle thing to do at that point! But alas, he just can't stop himself.

It's clear that even though his feelings towards Wei Wuxian are still quite complex at this stage of the novel (are they ever not?), he's still willing to do something dangerous for him, whatever that thing was going to be. I have seen some people argue he was actually going back in the cave to make sure Wei Wuxian died and possibly kill him, but I just simply do not agree with that reading so I'm ignoring it!

Then, we've got the whole going back to Lotus Pier and Ancestral Hall scene and the reveal about the golden core transfer. Yet just a few days later, at Guanyin Temple, despite everything that's happened, we still get him doing this (ch. 101):

With his left hand, he whipped out another string and attacked Wei WuXian!

Jiang Cheng's pupils shrank to become just a point. With a flip of his wrist, he turned Zidian's direction to defend against the guqin string. Jin Ling, however, blurted, "Uncle, watch out!"

With this chance, Jin GuangYao unsheathed the sword that had been wrapped around his waist and thrusted it into the center of Jiang Cheng's chest!

Face dark, Jiang Cheng clutched his chest. Blood leaked from between his fingers, immediately dying the fabric a blackish purple.

Of course, they didn't actually need him to get stabbed for them, and his extremely badass sexy dramatic electric-whip-and-umbrella-and-clangy-swords entrance was utterly ruined by him losing it at Jin Guangyao and getting stabbed, so it's all very awkward and embarrassing and he's in an even worse mood about it after.

But, you know, it's the thought that counts.

-----

Anyway, I did actually respond with a correction about the novel events on reddit at the time, though I didn’t touch the spirit of their arguments. To their credit, they responded with thanks for the correction.

But then they argued that it didn’t really matter because they were still down a core and if it had been WWX who’d been taken by the Wens, JC would've just been mad at him for doing it and blame him anyway so it doesn’t matter what he did for WWX. (full disclosure: that's my summary and not a copy-paste of their response) At that point I decided it was clearly fruitless and gave up on responding because I don't even know where to begin.

I didn't realize until later that they actually have some other spicy yet nonsensical takes that are actually even more baffling than this one. For example, that Jiang Cheng stole Wei Wuxian’s inheritance from him. (What inheritance? What stealing? Where? How did they reach this conclusion? They don't specify) Another is that the Jiangs didn't take Wei Wuxian in, they enslaved him to exploit his talent as a child laborer and took advantage of him, proof of which is that instead of paying him in cash he was only allowed to buy whatever he wanted at the merchants around Lotus Pier and then Jiang Fengmian paid the bill later.

???

Of all things to take issue with in this book, I find that to also be a fascinating choice.

I think it's some sort of bad etiquette to link directly to their comments from another platform or identify them, so I won't, but let's just say there are some true gems in that subreddit. (Also some good posts too of course)

#jiang cheng #warning: unnecessarily long and salty

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heavymetalchemist · 2 years

Text

Okay actually I'm still thinking about Yu Ziyuan and here's the thing, okay?

She IS a villain, depending on what story you're telling, but she's not the ONLY villain.

If we're telling a story about toxic family dynamics, she's making things worse! She's being awful! But she's also trying to defend her children in a world that highly values reputation and her husband is just sitting there exhibiting such clear favoritism that it's a subject of gossip in other sects! Her husband is out there breaking off engagements without asking her or her daughter how they feel about it! This is not to say the engagement shouldn't have been broken - ultimately I think that worked in xuanli's favor and was good for them - but it's telling that Madam Jin and Madam Yu are close as sworn sisters and set the engagement, but it's their husbands who break it off. And the comments about how Jiang Fengmian wouldn't have come to Cloud Recesses if it were Jiang Cheng that was in trouble... like... so you're only here to break up this engagement if Wei Wuxian doesn't approve? That's a yikes. Also JFM is a shit dad and this is just another example.

But anyway! The thing is that she hits this specific antagonistic role that is very real and very personal. This isn't some poor nameless villager getting a faceful of corpse powder, this is "oh my god is she actually going to cut off WWX's hand?!?!" It matters that she does things specifically TO the protagonist, and not some nameless side character or some named but ultimately not integral character. We don't get a scene where Jin Rusong has a playdate with Jin Ling, by the time we meet the Yi City crew the tragedy has already happened and is in the past, we hear about Xue Yang's finger but not about some poor terrified Chang child hiding under their bed as their whole clan is murdered, y'know?

I mean even empathy with Nie Mingjue happens after the fact! There's this framing that happens where it's already *done* that, weirdly, doesn't resonate the same when WWX is flashing back to his own life experiences. There is an immediacy in "YZY whipping WWX" that is not present in "JGY is poisoning NMJ with the songs of turmoil."

But there is this immediacy with YZY that somehow makes her worse, even though there are actual villains in the story who do so much more obviously terrible, murderous things than her. And we really can't discount the misogyny in giving JFM a pass that she doesn't get. Who brought WWX into the Jiang household? Who immediately was like "hey son say goodbye to your dogs (the only gift I have ever given you)"? Who refused to deny allegations of affairs, who refused to be on his children's side for marriage alliances, who didn't pick up his own son hardly ever?

There's this part of the book/show where WWX says that JFM has to be more strict with JC because he's the heir, but JFM *isn't* strict, YZY is! YZY fills the strict overbearing parent role! She is the one constantly expecting more/better from her son! (to an unreasonable extent that makes him feel like a failure? YUP! But at least it's there!)

JFM isn't strict, he just doesn't care. I feel like when I look at the motivations of characters, I can see why YZY behaves that way. I get why people make her the villain of stories - because if you're looking at bad family dynamics, she is the aggressor. But the thing is, JFM is right there flying under the radar, undermining all these relationships, introducing all sorts of doubt, not doing any emotional labor at all. Like what kind of asshole says to his small child "say goodbye to your dogs here's your new brother! ok sleep tight in your new shared room I'm off to bed byeeeeee."

#Yu Ziyuan #Jiang Fengmian #mdzs meta #I guess my point is just that when it comes to family dynamics #passive villains are still villains #again this is NOT saying YZY did nothing wrong #she did a lot of shit wrong!#it's about how other characters get more meta and humanization and the why of that #like... fic can really be healing/cathartic #and if you see your own abuser in YZY and want to demonize her then yeah! go for it!#but we are in a canon where many other people have done actually MUCH worse than her and the broader lack of empathy #it feels real unfair #it feels misogynistic #it feels like putting all jiang family problems on her when JFM is the cause of a lot of them #like think about the narrative of the wife supposed to just submit to her husband and be cool with whatever he wants to do #kinda bullshit right?#because it's not just the husband wanting to adopt his friend's son #it's also the husband ignoring his own children #shit's complicated bro!

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