#you people make this fandom unsafe for poc. you need to know that.

[mahoushojoe]

ngl its very concerning how literally none of the people in fma fandom who are gleefully rbing gifsets and clearly have watched the movie or at least seen the scar casting have said a peep about how scar's actor is a man in brownface

#masks off i guess but WOWWWWWWWW #like why do i continue to be surprised that people literally don't care about racism in fandom #its just kind of annoying that this fanbase prides itself on how progressive fmab is re:ishval #even though it really isnt #and then it goes and sees literal brownface and nobody cares not even a comment in passing #its grossly revealing abt the type of people in this fandom and the way the actual plots of fma theyre so proud of are nothing more than #brownie points for them #anyway yall are disgusting and this fandom has become unbearable. good riddance #fma #fmab #fullmetal alchemist #fma live action #mackenyu #scar #scar fma #you people make this fandom unsafe for poc. you need to know that.

[captainshadowgirllostfan]

I'm putting this out to vent because I need it laid out, especially since it's pretty obvious from the Naruto opinions blog which side they're on. That blog has had so much Sasuke fandom hate that legit has no basis to it. It feels like legit lies, and it attacks our fanbase, particularly, which I find nefarious. To talk about a fanbase and claim it to he racist without any sort of receipts is a humongous accusation and I have half a mind to want to report if not for the fact that I know Tumblr won't do anything about it...perhaps I will. Idk. But this accusation is not an opinion. It's an accusation and if you clearly have met someone like this, someone who has racist takes then perhaps you should report them instead of putting it on a blog that claims to be an opinions blog and generalize an entire fandom or a portion of them to be like this. We are not racist. I know many POC and black fans of Sasuke, and nobody I know has ever thought, claimed this sort of accusation and opinion on Killer Bee. Hell, this opinion of Bee being an aggressive black man has got no basis in the manga/anime! He is the most chill black man there is! If anyone said this, they would literally laugh!

EDIT: After writing this, I decided to report that post. It's literally a libel post against the Sasuke fandom. There is literally no basis to it and OP wants to pretend it's an opinion about general experience. If you got a bad experience be more specific and what's more report them or call them out. It's really that simple! Everybody's experience is not the same but to make a general statement that bottles almost half the fandom as "racist" just because of one or two bad experience is literally... defaming the fandom! I'm sorry it is!

As a POC, and when you say something like that, do you have any idea how unsafe, hurt, and angry can make some people participating in the fandom? You don't put something like that and call it an opinion because it's not. It's an accusation verging on defamation against a group of people just because you had what one or two bad experiences with people.

I've had some bad experiences with people in other fandoms. You're not gonna hear me claim that a fandom is this or half the fandom is this just because of that one or two experience! I'd be attacking an entire fandom that way with an accusation that had nothing to do with them

This post is NOT the only post that has been accusing and posting lies about the Sasuke fandom. It literally mocks the Sasuke fandom for rightfully being angry. You can check the blog right now. It's the most recent post on its blog.

Right after the moderator of said blog posts that it won't be putting any more replies because it's gotten "heated"

Because God forbid someone is angry at you for posting libel and calling it an "opinion".

I mean, omg, you got pushback for literally stating that there's a group in a certain fandom that is racist and think "oh this is just gossip?"Oh, I'm just saying my opinion or talking about an experience and saying yeah the entire fandom is that way."

And the negative Sasuke posts keep coming because I looked back at it again, and there's clearly an anon there with an agenda against the Sasuke fandom. And nowhere there is a defense against this. The other side apparently has no say on this blog. And by other side, I mean the Sasuke fandom. OP closed replies because it got heated.

and tbh there's rarely a positive post about any of the Naruto characters, certainly not Sasuke, in a blog that is called the " Naruto General Opinions" blog. What is so general about this blog? It seems to side heavily on one opinion over the other. Right after posting a negative Sasuke fandom post that accuses the fandom of racism, anti-blackness, and micro-aggressions of black people with the baseless claim that Sasuke stans say that Killer Bee is an aggressive black man which I have seen that absolutely no where and even the claim of Killer Bee has no support in the manga so why would anyone say that? But right after posting that, they won't be putting any sort of heated replies because, again, people got anger, why? This person posts about Sasuke "bad decisions" as if characters aren't allowed that, and we all gotta stand perfect characters who do pretty much nothing.

Basically, we should all stand Hinata since you don't get a more inoffensive character than that, right?

Also what is anon talking about? You think we're angry at people criticizing Sasuke's decisions. People have been criticizing Sasuke's decision since day on. Hell the post creates another falsehood about why Sasuke stans are angry.

Y'all called us racist and anti-black. As a POC, Idk whether to laugh or be angry at such baseless claims and I'd again rant about why but I've probably repeated myself a number of times on why I feel like that post is nothing more than libel especially since OP wants to pretend that it's an opinion of an experience that a number of times could've been much more clearer but isn't, and defame an entire fanbase as that way.

OP wants to pretend they care about safe-spaces but they do not. Their lack of clarification and the majority of their anon posts of "general Naruto opinions" being basically negative, not just to the Sasuke community but to many character fanbases such as Sakura, Hinata, Naruto etc tells you everything. And it's the fanbases that are generally attacked and mocked. Never anything about the characters.

OP has a post pinning Sakura and Hinata against each other...

Is it any wonder people think the Naruto fandom is so toxic?

In writing this vent, I relooked at the blog and found yeah I agree with some of the takes the blog has but as a Sasuke fan who feels very attacked, especially when a majority of posts about Sasuke are negative in a blog that claims to be about general opinions of Naruto, I can't help but sympathize with Sakura and Hinata fandoms and any other fandom that has been criticized. How ostracized they must feel when there's a blog claiming to be about general opinions of Naruto, but it's about them...

Like opinions are not...general. A majority of us don't share the same opinions. We're all different and we absorb and express content in different way. While annoyance and irritation of how some people absorb and express content is valid, it's quite something else to post these opinions in a blog that claims to represent the general Naruto fanbase.

And even if the majority do feel the same way...is it fair for the minority to be excluded? Is it fair to have one blog be the space of "opinions," especially when the majority are nothing more than toxic angry anti takes

And again, some of these anti takes, I do agree on...but I'm going to be honest, I will never reblog from them because no way do I think my opinion is just a general opinion especially when it excludes a group of people in the fandom who may not agree. I will reblog from blogs that have similar opinions to mine and backs them up with evidence.

If you have these sorts of opinions, post it on your own blog. A general opinion blog is honestly not necessary...it's clear everyone has different opinions about different things... I mean...it's Tumblr. Unless sourced and backed up by proof, it's just an opinion.

But opinions can be hurtful and verge on to seemingly defamatory when opinions feel like falsehoods, especially when it's not backed by proof. I've looked, and many others have looked to see where this claim of Killer Bee being an aggressive black man comes from, and...it's nowhere!? And OP will not ask or show proof because apparently it's an "opinion about an experience.". If you're gonna put baseless accuations of opinions there, I'm gonna tell you what that's called. It's called libel. Spoken, it would be slander. And all of it is just defamation against an entire fanbase who likes a character you don't like.

And as the moderator of that blog, which frankly I find them questionable and toxic in many ways, they have a responsibility to ask for clarification because spreading lies about a certain fandom base is not right. It's not. Clearly, the blog is very biased, but it verges on harassment and abuse and a hate campaign against an entire fanbase of a character they don't like.

Like I don't think I'm over-inflating, this becomes I personally feel like my character has been attacked by this. I don't write metas or analysis. I've been thinking about it... but it almost feels like both OP and Anon want to silence an entire fanbase because they just don't agree, and they do so with this slander!

This isn't just about the Sasuke fanbase. This is also about every fanbase in the Naruto community. Racism is serious so if an accusation is made, we have a responsibility to answer it and separate ourselves from that or at least if we've engaged in such behavior, to better ourselves for other members in the larger Naruto fandom.

This is just a rant I needed to get out, but I'm deciding to take action. I've had some friends that have been hurt and have seen some defamatory statements online about the Sasuke fanbase and I will no longer stand idolly by. It's one thing to insult and criticize my character, you are entitled to your opinion, but when someone is attacking my character for liking a character they don't like, expect some pushback.

I came into the Naruto fandom because I like Naruto, the manga, and anime. I didn't come in to be harassed for liking a character you don't like. Feel free to rant about it on your own blog, but the moment you spread lies, especially on a blog that claims to be a blog about "general naruto opinions"is the moment I can't stay silent about this.

Okay, I'm gonna end my rant here. I've wasted enough time thinking and writing this, but I mean it when I said, I've had enough when lies start coming into the picture.

EDIT 2: I've decided to take out screenshots because I'm unsure if I should put screenshots. It could be wrong or taken wrong.

#god I want to go on but seriously his post pissed me off a lot #just the exact nerve to put such a stupid claim and to say it was a group in the Sasuke fandom #i don't agree with everyone in the Sasuke fandom but I have not seen the behavior OP claims #anti Sasuke haters #how much time do you gotta waste spreading lies and spouting hate on a fanbase of a character you don't like #why exactly do you waste time talking about a character you don't like? #i mean seriously? do you just want to hate #is your life so bad that Sasuke is your punching and now his fandom is too #also now I'm relooking at the anti Sakura posts too #the amount of that is pheneomenal and in a blog that claims itself to be a general Naruto opinions blog #there are a lot of Sakura fans #your opinion is not general #even if a majority believed it the minority shouldn't be excluded #post your own opinion in your own blog #but if you lie expect pushback #give us the reciepts #anti haters #write in your own fucking blog #libel #defamation #slander #i can't stand lies #i'm sorry I'm bad at tagging this #this is just an extension of my rant #naruto fandom

[bi-leth-eisner]

I know this ain't a discourse place but there's a trend I've noticed in the 3..H fandom that I think needs a bit of a vent/discussion.

We've seen how the fandom engages in bi-erasure by claiming bisexual characters like YKB, Dorothea, Mercedes, etc are lesbians, but there's another uncomfortable bi-erasure that I've noticed: the bi-racial erasure.

I've seen this when it comes to Byleth and Claude especially: people supporting Byleth rejecting their Nabatean/Goddess heritage and embracing humanity in C///////F and then framing it as them "rejecting their destiny". And likewise people wishing Claude would reject their Fodlan side and fully embrace their Almyran heritage or even wish that he was full Almryan along with wanting to change his eye color.

It goes without saying this type of mindset is disgusting and to see the fandom embrace this almost unironically is just sad.

the bisexual erasure just makes me sad, don’t get me wrong. like, as a bisexual person, it just sorta hurts after a while. but the more pressing issue, to me at least... the race stuff. (i’d just like to preface that i am not mixed - fully Inuk, rather - but holy shit it’s still fucking racist to say “i wish this character wasn’t mixed race” even if they would go from half-poc-half-white to fully a poc)

i’ve said it already, but i won’t stop until it’s heard: i’m just gonna assume you’re actually straight up just racist if you think the Nabateans need to die because they aren’t seen as human, or aren’t human enough for you.

Byleth being half mortal, half Nabatean, but not “fully human” until they’re rid of their Nabatean half according to these See Eff people really discomforts me. why is someone of the race that founded the Empire, which split off into the entire continent of Fódlan (and therefore has been there from the very start,) only seen as a heartless beast? and why are people who are even just associated with her to blame as well? they’ve gone into hiding (their identities at least) so their bones wouldn’t be harvested like the rest of their race, their home was essentially made entirely unsafe for them for a thousand years. put yourself in their shoes. imagine having to hide who you really are so you wouldn’t be killed like your loved ones were. imagine never being able to see them again and being constantly reminded of their deaths because of the Crests - which is their blood - and the Relics - their bones, which are STILL MOVING. they’re just trying to survive after tragedy after tragedy that befell them. their goal isn’t to Rule Over Humanity, they want their goddess back, because maybe she’ll be able to make everything better. their world fell to ruin as she was killed, after all. i won’t go into why this is important for me (i’ve done so once already,) but i’m tired of people seeing Ms. Emperor dehumanising the Nabateans as a “good thing, actually.” it’s fucking not. it can make real life people who relate to them for whatever reason feel unsafe.

which brings us to Byleth “defying their destiny.” Sothis is gone after she fuses with Byleth and there’s no way to ever get her back again. the story cannot progress until Sothis is gone for good. Sothis was never meant to come back. Byleth’s destiny to be the goddess reincarnated was broken right then and there, since they’re unable to do much other than do what Sothis granted them: turning back time, of which use is very limited. they do not have the power to raise or entirely tear apart land or sea or sky or anything of the sort. so what they do afterwards is wholly up to them. (i’m of the firm belief that See Eff isn’t canon at all here.)

Rhea comes to accept that Byleth isn’t Sothis, nor will they ever be (in Silver Snow, which i see as the most canon route.) she knows then that Byleth is their own person. so their life is up to them, not some destiny.

and some people wanting Claude to be fully Almyran is something i can certainly understand, however... forgive me, i’m not a Claude expert by any means, but... isn’t him being mixed race a huge and important part of his character and route? him wanting everyone on BOTH sides of his family to accept each other instead of needlessly fighting each other? wanting to fix relations with each other and everyone else? his Fódlan half is just as important, for lack of a better word, as his Almyran half...

#asks #getting really tired of the Rhea hate #...technically? #also! my blog is a safe place to vent about this stuff! don’t worry!

[olderthannetfic]

Whenever I see antis decrying AO3 for allowing racist content on its' platform, I internally think, "Racist according to who?" According to antis I, a black person, am anti-black for writing my black OC "as a stereotypical black man" (he likes basketball and that's bad of him, and I guess also me IRL). So when antis say that all racist content should be taken off AO3, I can't help but wonder how much of that would be actual content made by POC that they've decided isn't woke enough.

--

Love & Basketball: truly the most offensive art of our times.

...

The answer to "according to whom" depends on which person is bitching about this. Some of them probably have specific NOTPs they'd like to delete, but a lot of them are listening to people like stitch who are very loud on twitter. A lot of this call isn't coming from the karens of fandom but from the white guilt morons who turn all their shame and hate inward and crumple at the idea that the world has always been This Bad and they just didn't know. This isn't the narcissist mother but the quietly insecure daughter. When they hear a good line of patter about "listening to POC", they leap for the bait because they're beside themselves to do something.

They see themselves as benign helpers elevating voices, but they're actually the beigest, blandest mob justice imaginable.

The result of fandom collectively behaving this way is, as you say, to make spaces unsafe for free expression by people of color.

To make fandom safe for such expression, we need to not turn a lens on nonwhite representation in this amateur, hobbyist space. We need to accept a certain amount of badly executed art and awkward phrasing. We need to accept problematic fantasies. We need to accept that we cannot know if something is by a racist white person playing into stereotypes or a person of color poking fun at them.

Fans do not thrive under a microscope.

[pocketsizedquasar]

white ppl in fandom rly will hear poc describe their experiences with racism in fandom and ppl describe how places like ao3 & tumblr enabled their harassment/abusive experiences and say some dumb shit like “but that’s the point!!1!1!! the lack of moderation is the point!!11 that’s how it was designed!!!″ 

like...yes...that is the problem...because you have intentionally and gladly created the exact sort of space in which abusers and racists thrive...why are you proud of saying that the purpose of the thing you created is to be a repository for abuse and racist harassment? why do you hear minors saying they were groomed and harassed or poc saying they were targeted by racists and think “oh yeah their fault for being online”-- like what kind of victim blamey bullshit is that? why is “yes, we know a bunch of people get harassed and called slurs and groomed here, but we can’t do anything about it bc that’s just how it was designed” treated an acceptable excuse and not a glaring problem with the inherent structure of the place? why have even simple solutions such as adding an archive tag for racism been brushed off with such vehemence? 

like, yes, online spaces are rife with abuse and racism...which is exactly why we should work harder to make sure that doesn’t happen! unmoderated & anonymous online spaces are precisely the types of environments where racists and abusers thrive, so if you have a space like that, then you need to take extra care to make sure that doesn’t happen!

whenever u bring this up a bunch of white ppl who wanna pretend they’re oppressed just completely ignore the rampant racist abuse poc face and act like you’re oppressing them for asking for basic protections against harassment

idk how you can hear people suffering due to the fundamental way a space was created, and think that that space doesn’t have any problems. if people are talking about their experiences with racism and abuse, your first instinct should be “okay, and how can we make sure that doesn’t keep happening?” and not “yeah lol tough luck that’s the point.” time and time and time again poc have expressed how unsafe we feel and how our very real concerns have been regularly brushed aside by the ao3 staff and its users and broader social media/fandom alike, but white people literally do not give a shit about the safety of poc in fandom lmao

a place that knowingly allows abuse and harassment to exist and does nothing about it isn’t all that worthy of your defending. 

contrary to what weird white people may think, it is, actually, our responsibility to look out for other people.

#ao3 #racism #cw racism #fandom racism #fandom crit #fandom critical #cw grooming #ask to tag #cw discourse #I guess #quasartalks #I’m truly baffled as to how ‘a place that enables racism and abuse shouldn’t do that actually’ is a controversial take #white queer ppl think their comfort matters over the literal tangible safety of poc and that telling them as such is somehow homophobic #like... yaknow qtpoc exist in fandom... right #us asking for basic respect does not a rampant homophobic censorship create

[lamp-calm-sanders]

How Thomas Contributed To The Unsafe Feelings Many POC have in this fandom

I’ve gotten a couple of asks about this so I’m going to go ahead and answer this.

Here’s what happened with Roman and b.l/m and how while a lot of this was fandom, Thomas contributed in a way that made this fandom not safe for POC.

So back during the hight of the b.l/m protests (so early summer) someone, forgive me for not knowing the name, made art of Roman as a black man. I do not recall this art saying b.l/m and the art was good. Most POC do not mind race bending with sides.

However while there was some people who sent hate to the artist, the artist got some comments from black people not in the fandom. They thought that was art of Thomas Sanders, a white person, as a black man. For the most part once that was explained to them, they backed off.

However, the artist deleted the art after the hate that they did receive. (Which I do not judge.) To show support people started making POC sides art, specifically black Roman art.

You might think “wouldn’t you love that Lissa? You’ve been asking for POC sides content and been talking about how you’d want to see to more of it.” Which is true I do love seeing representation.

However these people were saying “b.l/m” on their posts and on there tags. One, that’s very preformative. Two, that clogs up the b.l/m tag. Three, many people were treating b.l/m like a celebration. Like it’s pride. It’s not. It’s a fight for black people to get basic human rights.

Eventually people started listening (after white people spoke out about it instead of just listening to POC in the first place). And things eventually passed over.

And you may go “yeah that sucks Lissa but what does Thomas have to do with this?”

Well recall earlier when I said people were making black Roman art. Well someone went to Thomas, a white man, on a POC issue. Thomas began reblogging this art to show support. Something that only made more people do this. However when POC called out these posts and said they were bad, Thomas said nothing. Once he realized he was wrong, he just stopped. No apology. No reblogs from black fanders. Nothing. And you may say “maybe he didn’t see it” then explain why he stopped reblogging POC!sides for a while.

While Thomas condoning this stuff helped create an atmosphere where nb (especially white) people thought they could do this, black people in this fandom were actually getting attacked by white people or being told by white people that they know more about what are community needs than we do. And when he was wrong, when he made this mistake, he didn’t say shit. He just stopped while black fanders felt unsafe and continued to feel so.

I’m not saying he intended to do this, but he did, and a huge part of being anti racist is acknowledging your mistakes and apologizing, which he never did.

Edit: it seems some of y’all missed the tags, which fair. But please do not tag this as discourse in any way shape of form. I do not care about your reason, never label people calling out behavior like this as discourse.

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #ts critical #racism cw #I better see none of y’all tagging this ‘discourse’

[tazwren]

My two cents on the devolution of fandom spaces...

As a former mod of a fandom space and a woman of colour, I do not feel safe.

Seeing what has been done to so many in this fandom, by a particular group of white American women, in the name of moral policing is both abhorrent and demoralising. As it also is to repeatedly see the same narrative being shoved at everyone as the gospel truth.

A narrative that very conveniently either becomes about fic or has nothing to do with fic, depending on how people want to swing things. A narrative that will accuse a person of Jewish heritage of anti-Semitism, a person of colour of racism, a practising Muslim of being an Islamaphobe. A narrative that will define for you and me and all of us comprising this myriad of multitudes in the world what generational or personal trauma includes and what induces the same.

Those of you who know me, know what I’ve been dealing with the past few days & why I haven’t spoken up before now. Before I logged out a couple days ago, I saw what looked like more of the usual nonsense by the same group of people I’ve kept my distance from once their true colours were revealed. What I didn’t expect is that they would think themselves so above the norms of human decency and accountability that they would go after not one but two women of colour this time around in their rabidity. And many others who spoke up, as it turns out.

It hurts to see what these women, that I know of, have had to endure and to see the passivity of the community, save for a few voices, in sitting back and letting the circus rampage through town. It hurt when I was at the receiving end of it and it hurts now.

Why? Because it shows me a microcosm of the world that I don’t really relate to, that makes no sense to me with the values I was brought up with, and which reduces basic human decency to a commodity to be trampled upon and for you to be seen as weak for having. Because people who willingly laud you for your art / writing / wit, meet you with effusive claims of love and affection and friendship, who have no qualms in taking your help when it suits them, will throw you under the bus and let the wolves ravage you when it doesn't.

Before I get into that, let me talk a little bit about what has transpired over the past few days to a week, and what has been systemically taking place over perhaps the past year in this fandom.

One thing is that everyone who makes a statement about anything suddenly has people in their mentions demanding they show what gives them the right to hold that particular opinion. A critical thing people forget about fandom is that it is a place where people hide their identity for a variety of reasons, all valid, and this approach to fiction and conversations where everyone has to reveal every part of their past and identity as a means of establishing their "credentials" in order to present their views comes in direct contradiction with how fandoms operate. It violates people's rights to privacy.

The other is that there has been an increase in the voices that purportedly stand up to “speak for” the marginalised, the abused, those discriminated against and those who belong to minorities who “need to be protected / kept safe”. An admirable sentiment, to be sure. If it weren’t for the fact that none of these groups of people needed saving, speaking for or the protection of this particular group of voices.

Voices who only want to define and use these people as "model victims" to hurt other white women and establish their supremacy over both them and other POC. Voices that will present their "truth" as they see fit and sans context or present you with screenshots of snippets of conversations held in supposedly secure spaces that they have no qualms in violating in the interest of the "greater good" and claim offense / silencing if the misdemeanour is pointed out or action is taken against them, Voices that will conveniently categorize you as a "token POC" or "white adjacent" when you do not support or align with their narrative. Voices that belong to a predominantly white American group of women, whose real agenda, as is evidenced by their modus operandi, has nothing to do with real altruism or a drive for justice or indeed to right wrongs.

No, their agenda is purely power.

To hold sway over groups of followers, to shepherd them as though they are sheep who cannot think for themselves, and to set themselves up as white saviours who call out those who step out of line, or are deemed to be problematic and toxic and unsafe. To be the owners of the only "safe spaces" in fandom and to drive other groups and spaces to be boycotted or worse.

Now, I've long wondered, who indeed are these women to decide that for anyone? In a world comprising multiple cultures, religions, groups, subgroups, genders and which contains multitudes, who are these women and what gives them the right to foist their puritanical standards on everyone, very conveniently disguised as concern for the moral well being of everyone and the consumption, of all things, of fiction?

Certainly, there are many things in this world that people regard with justifiably equal dislike / horror / sadness. At the same time, there is much that is not shared, that is particular to a culture and to a person’s background. There is a multitude of perspectives that make the whole. And the white women of the United States of America have not cornered the market on what those are, or indeed even own any curatorship or censorship of the same. They cannot, because each person’s culture and background and joy and trauma is their own, as are their ways of dealing with it all.

That being said, let’s talk about their pack behaviour and the devolution I’ve witnessed on social media as basic human decency is bartered for clout.

I’m all for standing up for someone who doesn’t have a voice or a platform, or maybe afraid of repercussions to voice dissent. I’m all for being there for our fellow human beings as they face struggles of often unconscionable and unfathomable proportions. I’m all for holding people accountable for their negative behaviours as they impact the larger community.

What I am unequivocally NOT for is treating such situations as an opportunity to preach, to virtue-signal, to shame and to put on blast the alleged wrong-doers. I say alleged because that’s what most accusations are on these platforms—allegations to do with things that disturb our sense of balance or make us wrinkle our noses or that we deem bad, and therefore make the accused deserving of the full force of the community’s misbehaviour and censure.

I ask you if you were found guilty of a crime in real life—you know, the one away from your phones and keyboards—would you not have an opportunity to retain a lawyer, to plead your case in a court of law, to acquit yourself? Or, if found guilty, would you not have the opportunity for correction and rehabilitation? Yes, you say? (If you say no, then that explains the spate of state-perpetuated injustices across the USA, but that is a different matter).

Why then are people treated so abhorrently in this court of public opinion? What gives you, me, any one of us the right to judge people so vilely and with a metaphorical gun to their heads? What gives anyone the right to say you better agree with everything I say, retract everything you said and grovel for it or we will eviscerate you in public, shame you, force you to change or delete the content that offends us and still ostracise you and in some cases even threaten you with bodily harm or death, or doxx you?

Why is there no grace in how people are approached or dealt with? Whatever happened to allowing people to learn from their mistakes, where applicable, or hearing them out and giving them a chance to explain their side of something we may not fully understand?

Why is there no accountability for such behaviour on the part of the accusers?

What makes the rest of you sit back and allow this to happen? What makes you think this is in any shape or form okay to watch? Today, it is a virtual stranger at the receiving end, one you can distance yourself from quite conveniently saying Oh, she just mods a group I am in, or I only read their fics a couple times or I only followed them for their art or jokes or whatever flavour of excuse you choose. Tomorrow, it will be one of your own - or it may very well be you. And you'd better hope there's someone left to speak up for you.

The irony is you will have allowed it to happen by letting the wolf in the fold. By letting these white women manipulate you, and the community you claim to be a part of, so unapologetically, so maliciously and so unashamedly that before you can do anything about it the cancer has taken hold.

If this was happening in the world outside of social media, they would have to follow due process, to present real evidence based on facts (not based on emotions, rumours or perceptions) and would have to allow the person they are accusing to present a counter-argument, to defend themselves or be defended. Failure to do so is a miscarriage of justice and, depending on whether this is a professional or legal proceeding, they would either seriously risk their jobs or have the case thrown out of court. If not face action themselves for attempting to derail the process of justice.

Why then are they permitted to range so freely through the landscape of fandom, snarling and biting at who they please, or who displeases them?

I have no shame in saying I was at the receiving end of their behaviour for defending a friend they put on blast and I will tell you right here and now, I am a woman of colour who feels unsafe and attacked by these so-called self-appointed white saviours of your social media experience, these so-called upholders of the common morality—whatever that means—who will fight for you the evils of problematic and toxic writers who dare to have an opinion not aligned with theirs and who do not bow to their clout. Not that they care, so long as they can ignore this fact since it doesn’t fit their narrative. So long as they can ignore what has just been done to so many people in the name of cleansing the fandom.

If any one of these women were truly interested in alleviating the troubles and pains of the discriminated, the marginalized, the trauma-affected, I invite them to please come roll their sleeves up and help in the multitudes of troubles that wrack this world, not just in the backyards of their minds. My country is amidst a struggle for the basics of human life in this horrific pandemic and, prior to that, for basic constitutional rights for religious minorities. Do not patronize me and lecture me on trauma and racism and discrimination. Do not marginalise me in your attempt to pontificate and set your pearl-clutching puritanical selves above the rest, or assuage your white guilt.

A largely American audience or fanbase in this fandom is purely a function of access and interest—other cultures have vast followings for things you couldn't begin to fathom—and it doesn't mean you are entitled in any shape or form to be spokespeople for the rest of the world. We have no interest in being colonized again by white oppressors.

If you disagree with what I have said, I congratulate you on being a part of their coterie and wish you much joy in being the sheep in their fold. Kindly unfollow or block me on the way off of this post.

#fandom #fandom culture #bullying #gaslighting #gatekeeping #minorities #people of colour #real talk #toxic people #problematic behaviour #problematic authors #problematic fiction #fanfic #reylo #reylo fanfic book club #reylo fic recs #trauma #safety #accountability

[karanoid]

about top joe discord

LET ME ADDRESS A FEW POINTS:

There has been many fear and anxiety regardless the top!joe discord I made. I understand how it gives my discord a bad reputation. Somebody has kindly reached out to me to ask me addressing several points, which I’m now gonna clarify:

1. I am racist, I asked why, and they said mostly because of my dismissive behavior to people who called me out for drawing yusuf adorned in gold jewelry which made their friends feel unsafe. So, I am a muslim and was raised in a muslim household and community. I am fucking brown.

I didn’t say it because you don’t need to know that about me. What bothers me is how some people feel the need to come to my inbox informing me “maam yusuf is a religious muslim who prays 5 times a day and do all the supplementary prayers all while he drinks alcohol and fuck nicky in the dailies, he wouldnt be wearing gold maam no maam.” as if I didn’t know any better. so please, now don’t do that. If you care so much about the littlest details like wearing gold then you’ll also call out yusuf because he draws living beings and drinks champagne. yes it’s true muslim men are forbidden from wearing gold AND silk but let’s not forget, nothing in the comic and movies imply yusuf has ever been religious. It’s easier to see nicolo as religious because he was a fucking priest. Yusuf was a fucking merchant, it’s easy to see that he’d be less faithful because he would have been travelling and seen many kind of people to broaden his horizons and not contained to a little bubble of hyper religious community. However, let me remind you: whether yusuf AND nicolo are religious or not is entirely UP TO THE AUTHOR/ARTIST. It’s totally fine to make him religious and if you can respect it THATS GREAT, I ALSO LIKE HIM THAT WAY, but please remember it’s not even canon and hey sometimes I just draw things because I like the aesthetics. Also please, do not harass writers for getting a thing or two incorrect, even white people cannot get christianity correct, even between two muslims could be a disagreement whether this fic’s yusuf is problematic or not. I wouldn’t even expect anything more and THAT’S OKAY. Just don’t be an ass to muslims of color in real life and don’t fall into the believe that it’s a religion of violence. you can say that greg made him that way bc he knew nothing better but hey, I have no problem with that. again, it’s fine to make him religious, I’d be delighted but it’s ALSO fine to make him not religious.

2. I think that people only write Top!Nicky out of political correctness. OKAY. I apologize for this. I thought like this because I have accounts telling me that they were pressured into writing top!nicky or they wanted more readerships so I make a BIG assumption. I realized this is only a small part of switch and top!nicky fics and the big bulk of this must be out of genuine care. So yeah, I apologize for thinking that people only write top!nicky out of political correctness. I think writers should be allowed to write whatever they want. Yes this includes top!Nicky. And in whatever kinks they want it. However, this still doesn’t change that the discourses do scare people away from writing top!joe. Write top!nicky however you want, but stop vague-blogging about top!joe. racism isn’t inherent to top!joe and you can always remind people to be mindful with their writings but discouraging people from writing top!joe is not the solution. 

3. Top!joe is racist and people in the discord are racist. Okay, I am gonna touch several aspects why top!joe discord is considered racist: (1) because I don’t like to switch them, therefore I am racist. Sorry that’s not how it works. I have a clear preference and that’s just how I roll. Besides, a lot of people in the discord (including me) think either they switch (because they are 900 yo) or joe just doesn’t like bottoming. I’m not the kind of people who refers to reality for fiction I consume but people who prefer to top or to bottom exist (2) i want to be away from accountability and responsibility. Nope. The reason I made it is because I wanted to gather people with same interest as mine. 

4. I paint Yusuf as aggressive and the whole discord like him being an aggressive top. I think this is the only reason why the discord is seen in a negative light. Because wow what a coincidence that someone vagueblogged my discord at the day I celebrated about Nicky suggesting 20 years and wrote a post about how Joe is allowed to be angry. And beside someone made the WRONG assumption that we are focusing on Joe’s anger and violence (what). Okay, I don’t know how to break this down. But I will try. First, yes I was overjoyed at the news. Because I’m one of the people that do not like feral!nicky headcanon. I liked it at first bc it was funny but then it was twisted into Nicky being cold. So I don’t like it (lol), I still like it though but like I don’t seriously think that way. However, I never liked the idea that Nicky suggested higher than Joe. Because then his character just doesn’t click with me, there was a cognitive dissonance for me because joe clearly says nicky’s heart overflows kindness, you can see nicky as a medic in the credit montage. Also, from their body language and from the way the movie set em up, I think Joe is the one who suggested higher and I am glad to be proven right. Second, I did write a post about how Joe is allowed to be angry at Booker. People agreed with me, so I was not alone. But the reason I wrote that post is not because I wanted to paint yusuf as aggressive, but because I’m tired at people who think Joe shouldn’t display any negative emotions. I think it’s out of character. I do NOT think Joe is aggressive. That is NOT his wholeass personality. If you looked at my tog art tag, never once I portrayed Joe as anything aggressive. If I do, please show me. Third, people are conflating this with my post where I reblogged with a comment that implies aggressive Joe isn’t racism. Okay in this, the context is IN BED. It’s Joe being aggressive in BED. It’s literally BED ROLES AND FANTASY. I don’t even have a particular scenario in my head when I reblogged that, the original post clearly refers to bed roles with manhandling and kinks etc. like, why would you spank someone in public? Lastly, about the discord, NOPE, most people in the discord agree that Joe is either a GENTLE DOM or SERVICE TOP. But in my opinion, if someone likes Joe as an aggressive top (again, bed roles baby) I really don’t think it’s racism. It’s just... projection? 

anyway, back to joe’s emotions, these are posts from a moroccan man (paragraph #7) and a brown woman whose posts I agree with. Let’s be real, people of color are expected to shut up in favor of white people’s fragile feelings.

Now, about racism in fandom. I understand the concern because muslim men are painted as violent and aggressive. You know what I will never forgive those radicals for taking away innocents lives and to leave a lasting damage in how muslims are perceived in the west. However, you have to keep in mind, Joe in the movie is far from being stereotyped. I mean, Gina and Marwan practically greenlit him? Now, you might have concerns that writers are gonna turn him into a walking stereotype which is... okay, I understand that concern. But the solution is to communicate this ‘hey I think you make him too stereotypical in this etc etc’ not “write more top!nicky AND shame top!joe” because again, top!joe is not inherently racist.

also some people mentioned that they hope I recognize racial bias in the ship. dude, that goes without saying, all aspects of your life will be influenced by racial biases. however, this kind of thing is not specific to fandom/shipping. Like I said I’m fucking brown, friends and families with facial features that cater to white expectation are treated better. I did say at the bottom of this post, yeah I did notice why it’s always a brown character who’s always openly mad. And that’s in itself a form of racial bias. Racial biases affect everyone, white or POC, it doesn’t matter. But I got an issue with how people think this is racism. like how convenient, if by falling to racial biases mean you are a racist then what about those white people who created this racial biases in the first place? and I noticed the persons who got the audacity to cry about everything in this fandom is white?? I mean okay, they don’t know what I am, but not everyone is comfortable with sharing their private information like ethnic group, faith, etc. what if they really don’t want to share it? Because like you said, racial bias, whether good or bad will affect me. Now, I don’t know what white people are feeling, I’m not white. However, based on my interactions with them. We’re all just people sharing same interest, it could be they fall into racial biases, but all we shared about are just regular HCs. Even people making a conscious effort to combat racial bias still in essence fall for racial bias. You just cannot escape it.

According to this post, fandom assumes that the bottom is the proxy of writers, I don’t think this is applicable to everyone but let’s just say it’s true and people tend to write about their projection better so I’m gonna assume the racism part comes from the fact that..yeah I do think the bottom usually gets more fleshed out as a result of them being the writers proxy, so somebody posted this in the discord which I agree because yes I do think there’s a lack about yusuf’s background especially when it comes to crusade era:

but since I know most writers aren’t muslims, to me it’s not so much about racism but they simply know nothing about it, and not always out of ignorance either but in this climate, if you get a thing or two wrong you’d get harassed. so *shrugs* I understand the reluctancy. But here’s the thing, this is not about top/bottom issue but because most of the fandom are white so they have more freedom in writing the white character. Anyway, plenty of people have projected themselves into yusuf already, the whole “top/bottom” thing in this fandom is not even a thing. Yes, some writers project on the bottom so if you prefer bottom!joe that’s fine, somebody in the discord is doing a research and it turned out top!joe wasn’t even a CLEAR majority in JULY. So clearly they got their share already?

so please, let’s stop with the vitriol. if people are preferring top!joe it’s clearly because of different preferences. it’s not that deep. it’s the same way with how some people are preferring top!nicky. But we’re being driven out based on a hypothetical scenarios? like what do you want? for us to cease existing??? don’t be ridiculous.

I know people won’t listen to me. So this is my suggestion: LETS JUST IGNORE THINGS YOU DON’T LIKE. LET’S ALL JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE. 

#discourse #the old guard #joe x nicky #kaysanova #immortal husbands

[sholeh675]

Hello, 

So there’s been a lot happening the last few days, some of it centered around the most recent TopJoe server event. It’s also come to my attention that another “list” was made and accusations of racism. 

I don’t think it’s a secret that I’ve written a number of TopJoe fics that have darker themes: underage, dubious consent, immoral!Joe (in an AU setting), unsafe sex, tentacles, etc. 

I like dark, morally grey, weird shit. Those are things I like to write about. Not all the time (you may notice if you look at both of my profiles that I’ve also written femslash, Non-Romance Crossover fic, Character studies, Meet-Cutes, Slow Burns, etc). But yeah, I like weird stuff, and I try to tag for it extensively so that anyone who does not like the idea of the fic can avoid it. And then I write extensive author’s notes warning people about the content in greater detail so that you can backspace it if it’s not your thing. 

But it seems that writing Joe in certain ways (again, always in AU settings for me) is unacceptable because depicting him in these scenarios can only be maliciously racist and is part of the larger systemic racism present in many societies. 

Okay, so what if the premise of my most controversial fics were flipped? Joe is an underage Muslim teenager and begins a relationship with an older white man, or Nicky makes revenge porn to blackmail Joe, who has blackmailed older men to further his own career. I can totally understand why you wouldn’t like a fic with Joe in those roles I’ve described, and that’s why I tag so much. But a white man preying on a POC man can also be extremely problematic. 

(Also I’d love to have it known that I don’t write Nicky as an uwu helpless white boy in the face of the aggressive brown man. If you think that’s in my story after reading it, please DM me, that was not my intention and I have edited my fics after getting feedback before.)

So if a Muslim man doing these things is feeding into dangerous stereotypes, a white man doing these “awful” things to a brown man is… what? Not reminding people that there’s a long, hateful history of white men being hyper-aggressive toward people of color? Both scenarios can be disturbing to certain people, and the repeated dismissal of that fact by the people in this fandom who only go after “TopJoe” fics is galling. 

Nicky gets abused too much, and it should be Joe instead because we like him more and only people who are abused or whumped get sympathy. Does this sound right to you? Because this is a hottake I’ve heard making the rounds a few times. If you like extreme kinks and want to see Nicky, or Joe, or Andy, or Nile, or Booker, or whoever, being the focus of that, that’s up to you. Everyone has their reasons for what they want to write/read and I don’t know anyone here well enough to make assumptions about their motivations.

Also, I have never told people, not once, what they could or couldn’t write. I have never said that people should block another person’s content because I felt it was disgusting. Everyone’s thoughts and feelings and what might be disturbing to them is unique. It’s up to individuals to decide what content is safe for them to consume, and so to allow someone to do that for you, without an explanation as to why you should besides “here are the bad people”, is something I find extremely disturbing.

By all means, though. If you need to block me on ao3, please do so. I have absolutely no problem with that. The same goes for the #TopJoePornathon2021 event. There are several people that I have blocked on tumblr and ao3, and it’s not for personal reasons, but because their content makes me extremely uncomfortable.

However, I don’t believe the main architects of the most recent “discourse” are genuine. I have never spoken to any of them personally, and when I started writing “problematic” fics, not one of them approached me about it. Instead, that’s when the vagueblogging started (though to be fair, the originator of the “list” was not one of them. In fact, she left a lovely comment on one of my fics in October, so I guess I wasn’t that awful then- even with my ~problematic~ underage fic already published). I have since blocked many of them because of how they vagued me or because they’ve vagued people I know, or because I don’t think a constructive conversation with them is possible, for one reason or another. 

I’ve always considered myself a reasonably open and friendly person. If you come to my DMs or my askbox, I won’t be dismissive or rude. I’ve thought a great deal about my own stories, about how I’m portraying the characters, since I’ve joined the fandom, and I really do invite the opinions of people who are respectful, who aren’t interested in condescending to me or assuming I must have bad intentions because of what I like to write. 

But I don’t hate anyone in this fandom. I don’t know any of you, not really. We’re all strangers on the internet, no matter how well you think you know a person whose blog you follow or whose fic you read or whose art you like.  

Emotions are high right now- there are so many awful things going on in the world and this feels so small in comparison. Especially stories written for a small fandom that are tagged for their potentially triggering content and rarely get over 3000 hits. So again, please block anything that you feel needs to be blocked. But don’t pretend that the current discourse is anything other than a tumblr performance.

#the old guard #tog #tog discourse #sorry guys it's personal this time #old guard discourse #and this is all i'll say on this #block me if you need to

[ivyglow]

No one on tumblr has the power to actually ‘cancel’ anyone. Maybe we could pressure an athlete into apologizing for past behavior but even that’s kind of a stretch. What we do have power over is the culture of hockey fandom. It’s good that people on tumblr are talking about these tweets and what it means and how it affects us. If this is going to be a safe space for all fans then it’s important that problematic behavior gets called out and discussed. I wish people wouldn’t get so defensive every time a hockey boy gets called out, they’re not our friends. Yes we’ve all made mistakes but we also all get held accountable in one way or another for these mistakes. Hockey culture allowed for these young boys to get away with toxic behavior and now their chickens are coming home to roost. I don’t think it’s impossible for them to learn & grow but until they show they’ve done that we shouldn’t ‘forgive them’. Their careers will be just fine but poc and lgbt fans deserve a safe space and celebrating someone who’s said racist & homophobic shit without showing any remorse for that makes this place unsafe for all fans

“they’re not our friends” if they were I would call them out just the same tbh, my friends know I do, I always do, and always will, if you’re really my friend you’re gonna try to at least understand. I won’t speak much about “forgiving” because again I feel like in his case it's on you to choose if this isn’t a deal-breaker for you yk? but you can’t deny that it’s a problematic situation and it needs to be addressed properly, this is what people don’t seem to understand, they’re acting like by agreeing that it was wrong nolpats is canceled, so what they’re doing is saying that he was a child (at age 14) and that they used to do the same (which just shows lol). exactly!! that’s the point, I can’t be a hypocrite that says “this blog is a safe space!!!” then turn a blind eye to an issue like that, safe space for who exactly??? for those I choose to be while other groups aren’t feeling safe yet? this is the thing, we don’t like to feel discomfort, how are we changing then?? discomfort is part of the path to growth and dealing with those issues!  You’re absolutely right with your point and you should say it! 

#say it louder nonny #anon #hockey culture #important #nolan patrick #vince dunn #mel answers

[lily-orchard]

I'm a POC and I just became a new fan of the Star wars franchise a month ago. After reading about the racism that John Boyega and Kelly Tran receive from the fanbase and the Disney producers during the making of the trilogy, it makes me conscious about being in an unwelcoming fandom for me and other BIPOC. Am I being a bit paranoid about this or should I keep myself away from this fandom?

You're never paranoid for feeling unsafe. If you feel unsafe, then everything else I'm about to say doesn't matter because that's all you need to know.

The Star Wars fandom is abominably racist, the Fandom Menace (catch all term for OT brats, people bitching about the Prequels, Reylos, ect) especially. It only seems worse now because of social media and Disney openly pandering to those people.

It's possible to find safe places in it, or carve our your own, but it can be difficult. I would say find your own niche. Find friends and creators who don't entertain that garbage. Like Okiro.

[naruto-general-opinions]

Hi mod, I'm the Anon that suggested a possible set of rules for people who do not wish for others to get involved in their post. I've been reading several of the replies and I'd like to clarify a few things, as it may have caused some confusion: I'm simply a bystander and avid reader of the blog. I haven't disclosed my ethnicity in any posts either and I didn't intend to for the sake of neutrality, however, I’ve recently seen an anon post on the narutoblogcallouts where someone expressed being upset about it and not feeling safe as a poc within the fandom because of that post. So, if it makes them feel any better, I’m not white either.

Despite this, I still don’t agree 100% with what’s being said in the original post - I have a right to those reservations. I didn’t intervene in that post, I wrote a separate one in lieu of what I’ve seen, with a suggestion in mind: just because I am non-white doesn’t imply I have to automatically align myself with OP’s take: I am and always will be someone who advocates for free speech (unless it’s actively harming someone) for everyone.

Still, I really didn’t intend for this confessor to feel unsafe, I’m so sorry for that and maybe it’s because I came off too harsh, but I also think they misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

Anyway, the reason why I suggested a possible DNI option was because it's become apparent that some people feel the need to share an experience without hearing further discourse regarding other people's. Most probably the majority of yt people within the fandom don't fully understand OP's plight as a poc ; on the other hand, everyone has a right to expression, be them of whatever color; it's also worth noting that the anons who came forwards are not all white either, several have stated they're pocs themselves. All in all, the entire thread is a bit of a mess.

Viewing this from the outside, it seems that interactions such as these, especially when little context is provided in a confession, generate confusion and arguments in which people reduce themselves to name calling. It also leads to harmful generalizations and patterns of fallacy because the go-to assumption is that anyone questioning the OP is by default yt (which is ironically what's happening here with my post too).

Conversely, I think that if a person just wants to vent, doesn't wish to entertain discourse, or wants their post to stay strictly on topic, then they should have the DNI option or a “keep it relevant!” message at the end of the confession. It's frustrating for a poc to give their testimony of an experience with a portion of the fandom and have everyone jump the post, because this tends to erase their voice in the matter.

I would however think it's worth it to underline one thing: if a person is going to make an accusation of any kind, then they should back it up with an example/explanation. People (and obviously so), jumped the post because it was lacking context - it's a generalized accusation with little to no evidence, no one takes anything at face value. I also get the impression that some of the anons asking for clarity are either new to the fandom and haven't had a chance to interact much; some were poc but maybe from a different part of the fandom and wanted/needed context to understand how to recognize yt sasuke stans. My suggestion certainly wasn’t to silence pocs, it’s the exact opposite, it was to give pocs the chance to showcase their experiences without having to entertain discourse or feel like their post is being derailed. It’s sad that this person thought that and also thought that you (mod) would be happy to agree to this.

I don't know, make a poll on it maybe? That way it's a democratic choice and not taken by one person? Make what you wish of it mod...

I'll see what everyone else thinks an go with the best possible option. I certainly do want everyone to have a voice. Well, except the obvious nasty people, of course.

The DNI seems like a good idea. I do think people come here to vent about a topic but don't want to engage in debates, explanations and so on - only wanting their post to be aimed at those who understand what they mean.

We'll see if something can be worked out.

[luobingmeis]

Yeah,,, as a black gay girl whos been fandom stuff since I was a kid, the weird defensiveness of white fans over "fandom culture" really makes me exhausted some days. Even if fandom was my first introduction to being queer, it still aas isolating. Like some of these people will make fun of racist "Karens" and say "Listen to poc!", but when I bring up any criticism on how Ao3 isnt a safe haven for everyone Then come the hurt tears and "Fanfiction is so important to queer people and me! How could you!". Anytime someone even alludes to a fandom fave having racist undertones or the fandom only likes them cause theyre a white boy, suddenly its a extreme attack and actually this character isnt being understood. The ENTIRE culture of being defensive over Ao3 MASSIVE underage (pedo) content, makes me sick. Being in fandom can just become so tiring, ya know?

yeah like, there is this really, really big need to defend fandom and like, that post that i reblogged really said it all, and while after being in fandom for a Very long time and having some thoughts, as a white person, my opinion isn't the one that needs to be centered and also a person of color has most likely voiced that same opinion in a much better and more valued way, and at the end of the day, no matter how conscious i try to be, i still need to be checking myself and how i deal with fandom, especially when there is criticism on something i enjoy (and also, not specifically to You anon but more so to whoever might be reading, i recommend checking out whatever i have linked here because i am more so just reiterating what others have said, and i would much rather people turn to boosted voices instead of my own)

but just from some things i've read and heard people talk abt, i once saw someone say that you can't expect fandom to be taken seriously and yet be above criticism, and i think that's what A Lot of white fans want. like, for example with fanfiction, people will go to bat for it to be considered Just As Good as published fanfiction, but then the moment someone says "hey, your biases, subconscious or not, are showing in this fic and that makes this fandom an unsafe place, you should fix that," all of a sudden it's an affront on fandom as a whole and suddenly people are getting up in arms abt censorship and how fandom is a place of Freedom and a way of Expression and like... i don't know, it's definitely exhausting and i'm sorry that this has been something that you've had to deal with

and just something that i always think abt when people talk abt fandom and what is perpetuated in it is that someone always pulls the "fiction doesn't effect reality" card and that makes me want to scream bc it's objectively wrong (to add to that, downwiththemouse on tiktok, who talks a lot abt film/media analysis, has done a couple tiktoks about things like the effect of minstrelsy/the jim crow era on american theatre and film, and they have also spoken a bit abt a lot of the racist tropes represented in film today). and yeah maybe people watch a film abt a murderer and leave that film still Knowing that murder is wrong, but this idea of "fiction does not effect reality" feels like its becoming this idea of "well the stuff i read/write doesn't actually matter so i should just be able to write whatever and not think abt the implications." i know "critical thinking" has kinda become a buzzword that people poke fun at, but at the end of the day, that questioning of "well who was this written for? who was it written about? are there any underlying motives or biases present?" can't be forgotten because, like you said, people are now using stuff like ao3 as a shield from criticism

(this isn't necessarily to you, specifically, anon, but more so for anyone interested, an article i read a little while back that i really liked is "who actually gets to escape into fandom?" and i think it really puts into perspective that fandom, for how "inclusive" it tries to be, is still unfortunately inaccessible and not the same form of escapism for everyone, especially fans of color)

i understand what you mean about fandom getting tiring, and i hope you have been able to find some moments of reprieve in it all <3

#i know i just input a lot of my personal thoughts so if any of this was an overstep please let me know #and i can take out my reply #answered

[plumrabbit]

DA Fandom and moving forward - Calling In vs. Calling Out

Hi everyone,

As a PoC member of the DA fandom, I felt I have been quiet for long enough on the issues that have been presented recently. I am not here to argue against or on behalf of any individual or group, I am only here to present some information that I hope will be helpful moving forward. This is a long post, but it’s my hope that if you read it and want to help contribute to making this place better for everyone, then you will be willing to try to put what is said here into practice.

Since I am a relatively small blog, I wanted to start with a little personal introduction that will segue into the topic at hand. My name is Liz (you can call me Jade too, that’s part of my middle name), and I am a mixed race, “ambiguously brown”, aspec person from Canada. I grew up around mostly other immigrant families, attended predominantly non-white schools that were run by mostly white admins, and completed my degrees at a very white university in a field that does not have much racial diversity. I have experienced racism first-hand many times including, but not limited to, name-calling/slurs, fetishization/exotification, being followed by staff, people second-guessing my name, jokes about hurting/killing people of my race, etc. as well as witnessing racism directed at my friends and peers. I know exactly what it’s like to be exhausted and feel unsafe or othered.  There is, however, one thing I need to point out about the multitude of instances of racism I’ve experienced - most of them were caused by ignorance, and not malice. Yes there are absolute assholes out there, but personally I can count those people I’ve encountered on one hand (I am not speaking for everyone, though). The vast majority of racism, bigotry and general harmful acts come from a place of ignorance, particularly on left-leaning tumblr (to clarify, this discussion is centered around well-meaning people and not the actual lost causes). When I say ignorance, I don’t mean a lack of education or intelligence, I mean not being able to see or understand an issue from another person’s perspective. It’s not quite the same as empathy either (where empathy means you are able to feel another person’s emotions), but fighting ignorance does require empathy. It also requires knowledge on the context of the specific situation, and that I believe is the crux of the problem.  I think the main reason why this is issue is particularly prevalent in the DA fandom is a result of the too-close-to-reality-to-ignore inspirations that have been confirmed by the devs. Yes, it’s fiction, but there are also a lot of people that see themselves (mis)represented in the themes and characters. And what one person sees as disrespectful, another person may not see at all. This can come full circle, too, for example: one person sees themselves and their trauma represented in a character, another person sees their race misrepresented in the same character. Person 1 uses the character as a comfort character or coping strategy. Person 2 thinks using that character in certain situations is disrespectful. Neither one sees the other’s perspective.  This is where intersectionality starts to come into play, and requires empathy and effort to address the intentions and emotions of the other person. Perhaps person 1 is LGBTQ+ and has been traumatized by being as such, and uses Dorian as a character to explore their trauma. Perhaps person 2 is Brown, and racism towards their people is their trigger, and thinks person 1 did not do Brown representation justice in their creative works.  Looking at this more specifically, person 1 may have put Dorian in sexual situations. Person 2 feels that the way it was conveyed was fetishist or exotified. Person 2 doesn’t know person 1′s intentions. Person 1 is not aware of certain descriptions that are racist (e.g. using food to describe a PoC’s skin tone). Perhaps person 1 was self-inserting and wanted to feel desirable on their own terms, but this gave person 2 that squick factor.  Now person 2 wants to address this issue, and I think this is where a call-in (not a call-out) would be appropriate. Here is a good infographic that compares the two: 

(Original source)

Note that there is quite a large difference in the language used. Going back to the above example, person 2 could privately message person 1 asking them why they chose to represent Dorian the way they did, with specific examples, and using call-in language (and I’m going to get back to this in a minute). 

The point of this post and infographic isn’t meant to tell marginalized groups how they should be bringing up issues (though it is a good guide if you are concerned about being polite, particularly to a first time offender), it’s intended to demonstrate to people unintentionally participating in harmful behaviour what a call-out vs. call-in looks like. For PoC and other marginalized groups, yes it does take emotional labour to use call-in language and to try to understand someone that wounded you (here is a good read that incorporates the concept of emotional labour for call-ins, and discusses asking yourself if you are ready to do so). For the people who have unintentionally hurt a marginalized individual or group, please understand that someone calling you in is not an attack, it’s a chance to explain why you expressed something the way you did. 

That being said, we may have reached another hurdle. What if you call someone in, and the person called in does not want to discuss the fact that they were inserting their personal trauma? I think this is where things start to get a bit messy, but I am of the opinion that if you’ve unintentionally triggered someone else’s trauma through ignorance present in your work, you owe it to them to at the very least mention that you were inserting your trauma, without having to bring up specifics (anyone is allowed to set boundaries). From there, the discussion can be hopefully be opened up to learning from each other, and reaching a consensus. Sometimes that consensus requires the creator to edit or remove their work. As an addendum, if you are a creator that unintentionally hurt someone with your work that didn’t have an ulterior personal motivation, it’s your responsibility to understand why what you did was wrong, apologize, remove the work and do better next time. I know some people cherish their OCs, but you are allowed to change your perspective and make adjustments to your character without erasing them entirely. Now we’ve reached another potential obstacle - what if an offender doesn’t respond to your call-in? First of all, ask yourself, did you actually call them in, or did you attack them? Here is a good opinion piece from a Black professor on this matter. I’d like to clarify that I am not trying to tone police, I am speaking as someone that used to go ham on ignorant people on Facebook and Reddit, and has since changed their tactics and has even gotten through to Trump supporters (some of this stems from my spiritual growth as well, but that is not the point here).  There is another issue to address here now as well - what if you have tried, repeatedly, to call someone in and they just don’t change their behaviour? Alright, then it’s probably time to call them out. But again, ask yourself, did you truly try to get through to them? If so, well, at the end of the day, some people are, unfortunately, lost causes. In summary, a call-in is meant to come from a place of wanting to help someone who has seemingly gone astray, because you are worried about their thoughts, feelings, and behaviours towards a marginalized group. You know that if they made a mistake it isn’t them, isn’t their heart, and you want them to be able to understand why what they did hurt others, and give them the chance to correct themselves. It comes from a place of love and acceptance, because you don’t want your friends to harbour negative beliefs.  Finally, I want to give a real example of this in action. My cousin is a photographic artist, and was recently called in to discuss the nature of one of her pieces. Her subjects are usually people, and they come from a wide variety of backgrounds. To help support BLM (she does a lot of work to help fight racism in general), she auctioned off one of her pieces. The subject of the piece happened to be a Black woman. She was called in by Black members of her art community to discuss how people bidding on an art piece that featured a person from a marginalized group perpetuated the ogling and monetization of Black people. She gave a response that acknowledged that her piece did perpetuate this issue, because she wanted to raise awareness of this historical harm, and recognized that her intention was ignorant of this perspective. The Black community also acknowledged that the piece itself was not harmful in any way, only that the surrounding issue that they were painfully aware of needed to be brought to light. The auction went ahead, and the piece sold for ~$1000, all of which was donated to BLM.  I think as a fandom we should be cognizant of when a work itself is harmful, or when the intention is harmful. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don’t. Both are talking points, and we should not be afraid to discuss them, but this requires respect from all parties. We also do need to be able to recognize what is strictly fiction, versus what has real-world impacts. My askbox is always open and my DMs are open to mutuals if you would like anything clarified or expanded upon. Or, if you’d just like to discuss a topic, vent, or have any questions about my own beliefs, you are welcome to reach out. I am happy to discuss anything, as long as there is mutual respect. 

#fandom critical #da fandom #da fandom critical #fandom racism #tw: racism #tw: trauma #dragon age #dragon age inquisition #call out culture

[les-belles-infideles]

What happened with Kora @princesshamlet: A start at contextualizing the events of the past week

While I am writing this because Kora expressed that they would like it if someone would post something contextualizing what happened, I do not speak for them; my opinions and perspective are my own. I think the general response has been wildly disproportionate to their actual words and actions. Let me know if you have questions about anything or if my writing style is hard to read and I’ll do my best to clarify.

Tl;dr: Last fall, Kora, a new Supernatural fan, started rewriting Supernatural to be more racially diverse and to more overtly address social issues such as homophobia and misogyny. They continually asked for feedback, particularly from POC, and received overwhelmingly positive responses.

Earlier this week, Kora posted something that unintentionally played into ideas that harm trans men. They were horrified to have hurt people, immediately apologized and made an effort to learn more about the issues involved.

Yesterday, some of Kora’s friends cut them off, presumably over the abovementioned. Some people read Kora’s Supernatural rewrite and were offended by portrayals of various ethnicities; Kora tried to learn from these criticisms and apologize for them. People organized to spread bad-faith, extremely hostile claims and Kora left Tumblr.

Background:

- last fall, Kora started watching Supernatural, and posting about it, including making some popular reaction videos and an elaborate summary of the events of season 16 as of mid-November. They got really attached to Cas as a character and DeanCas as a ship.

- Kora made a post along the lines of “what if I drew Castiel as Indian?” and got encouraging responses, so they made a drawing. A lot of Desi people left comments saying that they really liked the drawing and that the representation was meaningful to them, so Kora started posting and reblogging a lot more about recasting Supernatural to be racially diverse.

- Kora accumulates a lot of ideas around how they wish Supernatural had been, and starts casually writing it up into a story. It didn’t even have a title for the first few chapters, but it quickly amassed a small, enthusiastic following.

- I started reading it at first mostly as a way of getting to know Kora, who was at the time a new friend irl (they didn’t mean to give me their Tumblr; I had followed them for Hamlet and Star Trek posts and then recognized them when they posted a selfie) but wound up getting pretty invested. I started watching Supernatural despite the fact that I can pretty much never commit to finishing a TV show.

- Kora’s general strategy was to post ideas on Tumblr and get input before including them in the fic, particularly regarding race and ethnicity. Plenty of people gave them feedback -- I remember one really long conversation where people swapped headcanons about what music a Mexican-American Dean Winchester would have liked growing up.

- iirc, they actively collaborated with multiple Latine fans of the fic on one chapter that foregrounded Mexican-American culture. These fans are credited in an author’s note.

- they received substantial encouragement from Supernatural fans of color for how they were writing the fic, and afaik no negative feedback.

- they also used the fic as a way to discuss and joke about their personal experiences with misogyny, repression, and homophobia, including writing Dean Winchester as undergoing a character arc involving working through and overcoming severe homophobia. When we called recently, they described going from homophobic to not homophobic as “the best character arc a man can have.”

- afaik they had beta readers or at least people to run ideas by for most chapters.

First incident:

- earlier this week, Kora posted a somewhat poorly-worded vent post about Dean Winchester’s misogyny in Supernatural canon.

- I think I reblogged it because I don’t have super high standards for my SPN blog and yeah, afaict Dean said some pretty gross things in canon? I’d seen a lot of people talk about it, particularly Asian women, it’s clearly a thing.

- several people expressed hurt at the post’s wording, which could be read as bigoted against trans men.

- Kora immediately apologized and started looking for ways to learn more about trans men’s issues (afaict, mostly asking friends and going through the trans dean tag)

- they messaged me about it (Tuesday 4/13/2021), and I took a closer look at the post and explained how in isolation it looked harmless, but some of the rhetoric fit into wider patterns of transandrophobia, i.e. part of the impetus for this post was Kora being surprised that some of their trans male friends project onto Dean, since he’s a pretty bad role model for gender -- I pointed out that one way trans men are marginalized within queer movements is by people perpetuating the idea that we’re more misogynistic than cis men (which makes no sense), and their post could be read as playing into that trope (that reading had occurred to me when I first saw the post, but I had initially dismissed it because Kora and I had been spending a lot of time talking about gender and I never felt that they distrusted me or saw me as a threat).

- they made another hasty apology post, quoting my message to them.

- I encouraged them not to worry too much about what strangers online thought about them, but they were very insistent that they had hurt people and needed to learn and make amends.

- I think what happened next was that the conversation sparked a larger discussion about transandrophobia in the Supernatural fandom? I’m not sure about this though, I was off Tumblr most of Tuesday and Wednesday. I saw a few well-written posts refuting the idea that it was misogynistic to headcanon Dean as trans. I did not see anyone claim it was misogynistic to headcanon Dean as trans, but again, I wasn’t looking.

The Discourse™:

- yesterday, Kora started getting a lot more and a lot meaner messages.

- a large part of their social circle cut them off all at once, saying they felt unsafe and that Kora was transphobic. Kora did not/was unable to receive further clarification, while actively seeking the chance to learn more and repair harm done.

- someone made a dedicated hate tag for them.

- a new group of people read their Supernatural rewrite, and were offended by their portrayals of race and their writing about homophobia, and additionally mocking their writing style. The tone was often extremely mean-spirited.

- Kora responded to and apologized for some of the concerns around their portrayal of race, and refuted some of the bad-faith readings of their depictions of homophobia.

- Kora made an effort to understand what they had done wrong but a lot of the posts weren’t very specific.

- some of the claims got fucking wild. A lot of them involved taking stuff out of context. I think w*ncest got brought up at one point???

- Kora wrote another apology and took a break from Tumblr, on the advice of another friend.

- I spent like a day gearing up to write this because I vastly underestimated the speed at which Tumblr discourse moves.

#i know this would be a stronger post if I linked to posts addressing the issues in question #but I kinda just need to post Something at this point #supernatural #spn #princesshamlet discourse #discourse cw #ask to tag #tooth speech #lore

[angelofthequeers]

Really disappointed you would defend adriends behavior. A whole lot of assault survivors like me easily see him as a sexual assaulter and his background/ignorance literally doesn’t change that. The show has had ample time to call him out but it won’t and fans like you defending him and critiscising people calling him what he is isn’t helping. I’m also a child abuse survivor and that’s literally no excuse this fandom is really unsafe for survivors but I trusted you.

“What about marinettes feelings? What about the abuse she suffers from chat noir / Adrien? What about her bodily autonomy and safety? Why do y’all adrien defenders never consider the trauma of a woc? Why does adrien specifically get all this energy and abuse apologism. Smh (2)”

1. I’m a POC myself and I’ve had someone pressure me into letting them touch me when I was a kid and then pull a Lila because they knew I’d get in trouble and their word was always believed over mine even by my own mother, to the point where I didn’t tell anyone for years afterwards and I’m only comfortable acknowledging it now. So like, don’t get on my case because I’m starting to learn the difference between someone who doesn’t care about boundaries and someone who doesn’t know what boundaries are

2. Where are we saying that Adrien’s right and Marinette’s wrong? We’re acknowledging that yes, while what he does isn’t cool, he’s coming from a place of child abuse and having no good parental figures to the point of not knowing what boundaries are, not a place of deliberately crossing lines

3. Hence why a lot of us write Adrien learning about what boundaries are, to deal with our own stuff, because for us specifically, it’s healthier for us to project on him by writing him as learning. It’s healthier for others to project on him by salting on him. And no one’s making anyone stick around where they don’t want to be. There’s such a thing as a block button and a tag filtering system

4. Like seriously, point me to where I’ve defended him for what he does, rather than defending where he’s coming from while also pointing out that he needs to learn better and he needs a stable adult figure to teach him that because he sure as fuck isn’t learning at home. He’s literally been taught that boundaries don’t matter and he’s supposed to let people hang off him and just smile and nod and put up with it because he’s not a person, he’s just a shiny piece of meat

I could go on but like

Jesus I shouldn’t have to fucking justify myself to an anon and the only reason I’m answering this is because I need to get it out somehow because people won’t leave me the fuck alone. I write Adrien salt, I get stalked and harassed. I realise that Adrien salt is literally unhealthy for my mental state and I get guilt-tripped.

And I don’t need anons guilt-tripping me because I’m figuring out that it’s literally healthier for my brain to write and turn Adrien into someone who learns and changes his behaviour, rather than constantly shitting on him, when there are characters like Lila who know that what they’re doing is wrong but just don’t care so long as they get what they want

#ask #aotq answers #cw csa #tw csa