zobothehob0

[zobothehob0]

No I get that, but what I’m saying is the fact that your pharmacist (and other pharmacists) failed is not about the dangers of money in the pharmaceutical industry. 

What is about the dangers of money in the pharmaceutical industry is the patents that prevent the vaccines from being produced independently, which limits access. What is about the dangerous of money in the pharmaceutical industry is the ethical ramifications of these people getting fifthly rich off of lifesaving medications that the whole world needs immediately. 

Pharmacists not doing their job correctly is a problem. It’s medical abuse and it’s illegal and immoral. But it doesn’t have anything to do with the actual pharmaceutical companies. Pfizer and Moderna have not told the pharmacists not to inform you properly. They have been forthcoming and upfront about the side effects. The pharmacists are not taking under the table money from these companies to not tell you the side effects. The pharmacists are being negligent and cutting corners (probably for time) in not asking you “Do you have any questions about the side effects you’d like to talk about before your shot?” 

And please understand, there’s a difference in “I want everyone to be met with empathy when they express concerns” and “you should all be scared of this.” People got upset with your original post because you were actually fear mongering about the vaccines. It wasn’t appropriate, nor was it what you wanted to say.... But it is what you did. 

So you were given a form with the side effects listed in there and didn't read it when signing it because you thought there weren't any even though you already know every vaccine and medications have side effects and potential risks and that's everyone's fault but yours?

i mean, this isn't civil, so i'm not entertaining the personalized aspect of it. but i will say i stand by my point: there should be more verbal discussion around the side effects. in clear language in a way people understand. the exact way there is for other medications that involve a risk. people have died. not as many as have died from covid, no. but to not acknowledge their deaths and respond appropriately and respectfully by creating more space for communication is shitty.

[zobothehob0]

Okay but your original post was about capitalism and you said it’s suspect and scary that the side effects are being downplayed. Your evidence on that was that you were not verbally informed about the side effects. Me and others have pointed out that your lack of verbal consent is not evidence of the side effects being downplayed, but rather evidence of your pharmacist’s misconduct in not asking you if you wanted to go over it and your missed opportunity to ask. 

So to get back to the original conversation, what is your evidence that the side effects are being downplayed for capitalist reasons? Because my counterclaim is that the side effects are not being downplayed. 

Capitalism and medicine shouldn’t mix, but the vaccine side effects are not being mistreated.

So you were given a form with the side effects listed in there and didn't read it when signing it because you thought there weren't any even though you already know every vaccine and medications have side effects and potential risks and that's everyone's fault but yours?

i mean, this isn't civil, so i'm not entertaining the personalized aspect of it. but i will say i stand by my point: there should be more verbal discussion around the side effects. in clear language in a way people understand. the exact way there is for other medications that involve a risk. people have died. not as many as have died from covid, no. but to not acknowledge their deaths and respond appropriately and respectfully by creating more space for communication is shitty.

[zobothehob0]

Okay so there’s some misuse of language here. “Testing” when it comes to vaccines (and other pharmaceuticals) refers to experiments in a lab, prior to its full release to the public. When the FDA approves something (either in EUA or full approval - both of which have happened with the covid vaccines), testing has already been completed. That’s what I meant when I said “the covid vaccines have been tested the exact same as other vaccines.” 

What you’re talking about is lived data. We only get lived data from living and passing time. If someone came to me worried about the fact that the vaccine was new, I would tell them that all medications and pharmaceuticals have to be new at some point. And we don’t generally see the same pushback about the newness of other new pharmaceuticals that we are seeing with the covid vaccine. The malaria vaccine, for instance, has been globally celebrated and applauded. My mom is on a medication for her MS that was developed in 2019 - this medication is seen as exciting and good. The emphasis on the newness of the covid vaccine being cause for alarm is not shared evenly for less politicized illnesses. 

That said, due to the sheer number of people that have had the covid vaccine, we actually have more living data about the covid vaccine than most other medications. Also - as time goes on and people who were vaccinated in the first wave come into their 1 year anniversaries, the lived data of the effects of the vaccine over time becomes stronger and more defined. If you are curious about the effects over time, I recommend this article which details how vaccine side effects are different from daily medications.

skepticism isn’t even necessarily a bad thing, imo. You are being skeptical

skepticism is defined as doubt, and this person specifically called what i said "vaccine skepticism" and made it clear they think it's a bad thing... i am trying to make it clear that i'm not skeptical of the vaccine itself, i'm skeptical of surrounding circumstances.... i guess in the sense of me noting the vaccine is still very new/has limited testing compared to other vaccines i am being skeptical to a degree but really i just see that as stating a fact at the core of it all, not personal skepticism

[zobothehob0]

If you needed verbal discussion, you should have asked for it. Your pharmacist should have offered it, but you should have asked for it. This still, however, has nothing to do with capitalism creating unsafe conditions around this vaccine and the availability to information about its side effects. 

So you were given a form with the side effects listed in there and didn't read it when signing it because you thought there weren't any even though you already know every vaccine and medications have side effects and potential risks and that's everyone's fault but yours?

i mean, this isn't civil, so i'm not entertaining the personalized aspect of it. but i will say i stand by my point: there should be more verbal discussion around the side effects. in clear language in a way people understand. the exact way there is for other medications that involve a risk. people have died. not as many as have died from covid, no. but to not acknowledge their deaths and respond appropriately and respectfully by creating more space for communication is shitty.

#also this message is perfectly civil #it's not from me #but its not inflammatory or cruel or mean

[zobothehob0]

I’m not being condescending? I’m being straightforward. I was sarcastic in the first bit of my response, but then I said “but seriously” and then my tone was not meant to have any sort of condescension at all. The capitalized words are for emphasis because my computer has decided that control+b shouldn’t work anymore and I didn’t want to take the time to highlight and bold everything. 

skepticism isn’t even necessarily a bad thing, imo. You are being skeptical

skepticism is defined as doubt, and this person specifically called what i said "vaccine skepticism" and made it clear they think it's a bad thing... i am trying to make it clear that i'm not skeptical of the vaccine itself, i'm skeptical of surrounding circumstances.... i guess in the sense of me noting the vaccine is still very new/has limited testing compared to other vaccines i am being skeptical to a degree but really i just see that as stating a fact at the core of it all, not personal skepticism

[zobothehob0]

At what point do you take ownership over not asking verbally about the side effects? If it was important to you to have a verbal conversation, it’s YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to ask. At what point to you give ownership to your pharmacist that they didn’t offer a verbal conversation about the side effects. 

Other people’s pharmacists DID go over it verbally and yours probably would have too had you asked. 

The point me and others are trying to make to you is that your claim that because YOU were not verbally told when you DIDN’T ASK to be verbally told doesn’t mean that the side effects of these vaccines are being hidden or downplayed. YOU didn’t receive the medical care you wish you received and that sucks and I’m sorry but it has nothing to do with the vaccines being scary and capitalism ruining medicine. 

i think pharmaceutical companies making money and shit is more of a capitalism problem than a science problem tbh. if you’re concerned about just that specific aspect of it you need to look at our society structure and government etc. that’s part of why other countries don’t have the vaccine cause the companies won’t give it to them (unless the pay etc.) and it’s just terrible and awful but of course i don’t think that negates most of the science behind the vaccine.

also i think it is a tad bit hypocritical to say you should’ve been told about the side effects when they are provided for you and you just need to read them. no one can force you to read or find out about them it’s genuinely on you and it’s literally given to you before consenting. like that’s as far as they can go. and even with other meds, for example, the ones i take for my mental illness have the pamphlet and everything but if i don’t read it i’ll never know what they are but that’s on me. they’re still disclosing them though.

but yeah i think it’s super valid and necessary to question things and it’s healthy to do so (without going into conspiracy territory like some anti-vaxxers do). I’m glad you’re open to hearing multiple opinions and povs and I’m glad you shared yours!

that was one of my primary points, even if i didn't discuss it properly (which i guess i didn't cause this kinda got turned into more of a discussion abt the side effects when my first point was the financial aspect) my thing is i wish there has been more of a verbal discussion... like i wish someone had verbally discussed the risks with me in a consult the way they do when i get new meds. as in, they didn't go as far as they could go bc i've definitely seen them go further many times. i don't really think i'm being hypocritical because i've already addressed the consent form disclaimer. people don't take in information that way very well as a whole. like it's a Thing. that's why so many people are begging others to actually read terms and conditions... people just don't, in general. they're always loaded with text and idk... i'd say fine print is typically overwhelming for most people. yes, i should have read it and i'm admitting that blatantly, but i hadn't been told by anyone that there was any kind of risk at that point so i just Thought i was doing the Right thing and so i did it without asking questions. that's on me, yeah. but a consult or verbal discussion about the risks by like, literally anyone, even ppl on the street or my family, would have been appreciated beforehand. that's why i wanna encourage discussion... just to increase the awareness. i don't wanna come off as a conspiracy theorist bc i'm relying on fact as much as i possibly can here while discussing my own personal experience, but idk. i appreciate you helping me think more abt this. that's what this was all about. i like thinking critically and having more information thrown my way to consider, so thank you!

#your false equivalences are wild to me

[zobothehob0]

The thing about all of this that really pisses me off is that there are 100% ways to talk about the reasons someone wouldn’t want a vaccine (they already have another health condition so the risk of side effects is greater, distrust of the government, distrust of the medical system, their fear is being preyed on by bad actors with ulterior motives) in a way that’s humanizing and compassionate WITHOUT spreading anti-vax rhetoric or buying into the idea that there’s SoMeTHiNG ScArY gOIngG oN wITh BIG PHARMA and this vaccine is Special and Cause For Alarm

You want to have the conversation about how “let the unvaccinated people die” rhetoric is ableist, racist, classist, and evil, please do! Because YEAH! 100% I just said this in therapy last week! It’s disgusting and we have to STOP! 

But you didn’t say that. You said that there was something scary about the vaccines and that they’re more dangerous than our medical providers are telling us. 

perhaps conspiracy is not the best word to describe what conversation you are engaging in. i understand that you are pro vaccine. i guess i just dont want to add fuel to the anti vax fire. in my city the hospital was surrounded by protesters (why they were yelling at hospital workers about the issue idk) and no one who actually needed the services could find parking and were being harassed. life saving surgeries have to be cancelled because unvaxxed covid patients take up beds. i get your perspective, im just SO over anti vaxxers. i had a couple come up to me at work and tell me that i was gonna become a second class citizen bc i am vaccinated. sorry if i came off rude earlier. you are not a conspiracy theorist, but there definitely are people who use the rare side effects to promote their deluded conspiracy agendas

thank you for returning. it's digusting that people are going about expressing their fear in a way that is risking people's lives so blatantly as to block emergency access and i'm sorry you had to witness something like that! i want to make it clear that i do not promote anything of that nature. i really just wanted to discuss the fear to the extent at which it is valid and, i guess my primary goal at the heart of it was to address the way a lot of people against the vaccine are not inherently demonic people and are living in a state of fear and distrust for pharmaceutical companies and the government that honestly given our history is valid... my points are coming from a place of love and desire to empathize and i hope i have succeeded in making that clear to the best of my ability while juggling such a sensitive topic... we are, as a mass, all exhausted and defensive and scared and i harbor no judgment towards that, i just hate the "let the unvaccinated people die" rhetoric bc i find it cruel and that it doesn't encompass everyone.... some of my frightened loved ones i hold very dear to me included. the people blocking hospitals and saying such rude things to you need a wake up call, truly. i'm sorry someone said something like that to you :( the respect needs to go both ways... also, my side effects concern is not coming from a place of arguing that the side effects are important enough to deter people from the vaccine, i just believe in a thoroughly transparent process when it comes to handling this bc i truly think more transparency and open communication would go a long way

#the conversation you wanted to have #and the conversation you are having #are not the same conversation

[zobothehob0]

Congratulations! You have completely misunderstood and misrepresented medical testing for the passage of time! No anti-vax conspiracy theories here! Just FACTS!

But seriously, in 1963, the measles vaccine was new. And the only way the measles vaccine got to have 58 years is because the people in 1963 gave it a shot (that’s a pun!). 

You don’t get new medicine to treat new pathogens without them being new. 

HOWEVER, your claim WASN’T that this is NEW. Your claim is that there wasn’t as much testing as other vaccines. Considering it IS new, the only fair comparison is OTHER NEW VACCINES NOT vaccines that have been around 58 years. 

The covid vaccines were subject to the EXACT SAME FDA testing procedures and protocols that OTHER NEW VACCINES are subject to.

Thereby your claim that the covid vaccine was not tested as much as “other vaccines” is a false equivalence at best (re: measles vaccine) and a lie a worst (re: other new vaccines).

skepticism isn’t even necessarily a bad thing, imo. You are being skeptical

skepticism is defined as doubt, and this person specifically called what i said "vaccine skepticism" and made it clear they think it's a bad thing... i am trying to make it clear that i'm not skeptical of the vaccine itself, i'm skeptical of surrounding circumstances.... i guess in the sense of me noting the vaccine is still very new/has limited testing compared to other vaccines i am being skeptical to a degree but really i just see that as stating a fact at the core of it all, not personal skepticism

#Nice try! #stop #turn around #and think next time

[zobothehob0]

What I keep seeing from you: I get that it’s not ACTUALLy the problem I said it was that the evil pharmaceutical companies are intentionally hiding the side effects of their products for profit and that’s scary.... I get that the side effects are widely discussed and openly discussed... but MY pharmacist didn’t verbally inform ME and I didn’t ask and insist on verbal consultation of the side effects so I’m going to SAY it’s Evil Big Pharma because I feel bad that I was not given the medical care that I deserved!

THIS IS HOW CONSPIRACY THEORIES SPREAD!!! generalizing YOUR lack of quality medial care as evidence that the vaccine rollout is “scary” and cause for alarm is UNTRUE, MISLEADING, AND DANGEROUS

I see what your saying about the vaccine and you do make a good point! But that side effect is listed everywhere and discussed. The consent form for the vaccine lists that as a potential side effect. Anyone can do research and see any and all side effects but the miocarditis one has been talked about in the news and is widely available especially since it’s so rare. It sucks that we’re in a place where it feels like this will never end if people don’t get vaccinated so it’s hard to have critical discussions when there are so many people not even discussing this with any semblance of truth and fact.

i am seeing it more commonly mentioned now but it wasn't listed or discussed everywhere when i got my booster 😕 i feel like it should have been said to me, should have been on tv, should have been made available to me in clear writing/verbal statements when i got my shot the way it is when i get prescribed any other medication and go to pick it up at the pharmacy... like there's a consult process for other meds, and i wish there had been one for this so i could feel like i was giving my full consent equipped with knowledge of the risks... again, i just felt violated. i agree w you that people are soooo adamently pro vax without questions rn because we want to make this come to an end and i empathize w that. i just wish discussion points weren't so quickly dismissed among the gp... i think we are all tired and scared and going through mass psychosis from all the trauma this has brought but that's why i'm encouraging the discussion... we need to Not lose that part of us that cares enough to look into things and wants to go into decisions abt what we put in our body thoroughly educated

[zobothehob0]

Then I think it is time for YOU to get a new pharmacist! MY pharmacist responsibly educated me verbally. You cannot blame big pharma for YOUR PHARMACIST’s negligence. 

Myocarditis is listed in all the consent forms if people actually read them, and the chances of having that issue are much greater with covid than they are with the vaccine. I think you make some good points but no one is hiding these side effects if people bother to look

people don't look into things That Deeply though... it's a known fact nowadays that we all skim through terms and conditions etc IF we even do that before hitting accept... which is why pharmacists in a lot of places insist on a verbal consult with new medications that have potentially dangerous side effects now. there was no verbal discussion, there was no one who told me of the risk, there was no pamphlet or commercial abt that listed the risks in clear language, etc...

#hold your medical providers accountable for their unethical actions

[zobothehob0]

If what you’re posting has people questioning everything about their medical care, you can tell that it’s irresponsible and bordering on conspiracy theory land! Stop. Turn around. And think next time!

Now I’m starting to question everything about my pharmacies because I’ve literally never been verbally told side effects when picking up medication. They normally ask if I have any questions and I say no and then that’s it

don't get too nervous... ❤️ tbh when a pharmacist asks that i would go ahead and ask abt side effects bc i think it's important to be aware... not every drug needs the consult but the ones that are newer/with notable risks they usually pull you aside for or have you sign something clearly saying you've waived your consult and i personally advise against signing that if it's a new medication for you

[zobothehob0]

FACT CHECK! the vaccines were subject to the FDA’s usual testing prior to approval. They have been tested the exact same as any other vaccine! 

skepticism isn’t even necessarily a bad thing, imo. You are being skeptical

skepticism is defined as doubt, and this person specifically called what i said "vaccine skepticism" and made it clear they think it's a bad thing... i am trying to make it clear that i'm not skeptical of the vaccine itself, i'm skeptical of surrounding circumstances.... i guess in the sense of me noting the vaccine is still very new/has limited testing compared to other vaccines i am being skeptical to a degree but really i just see that as stating a fact at the core of it all, not personal skepticism

#'the vaccine has limited testing compared to other vaccines' is an anti vax lie

[zobothehob0]

What facts are you stating? You’re saying the side effects are being hidden and that we’re not being informed of the side effects but the anon was informed! So was I! And others! If your provider didn’t inform you, that’s on them. If you denied information, that’s on you. But the side effects are NOT being burried for profit! That isn’t happening. But you’re saying it is. How is that “stating facts” ???? 

i agree pharmaceutical companies suck and are unethical for many reasons. however its not their or the governments fault if someone cant be bothered to read a consent form. i saw stuff daily on the vaccines dispute on the news about the possible side effects and read the consent form, it was no secret. people need to take responsibility for their own health and look into the scientifically proven side effects of medications. a family dr would happily take a phone call and explain to you the possible side effects and the likelihood of them occurring. hell you could go on the askdocs subreddit and verified physicians would talk to you about it (ive seen several posts like it). capitalism sucks, pharmaceutical companies suck, but covid sucks way fucking more. dont contribute to some conspiracy craziness. vaccines save lives and are only effective if a majority of the population gets it

i mean i agree w you about people needing to look into things (though i still believe a consult etc should be included) but i don't think i'm contributing to any "conspiracy" by stating facts anymore than a doctor would be by giving the side effects the way you describe... i am literally just discussing more open communication around the reality of the vaccine and listening to others.... and all the while i have worked to make it clear i am not against the vaccine as a whole/am vaccinated myself... i had family die from covid as one of the first cases in the US, i promise i'm aware that it sucks

#there has been open communication about the side effects #everyone i know has talked openly about them! #you're not stating facts #you're stating conspiracies

[zobothehob0]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

The side effects of these vaccines are not being hidden. Money and medicine should not mix, but you are mighty close to conspiracy theory land. 

If your medical provider did not inform you of the side effects, before administering your shot, your medicial provider is unethical and acting illegally. Mine made me sign an informed consent form with the side effects that she went over before administering my booster, the same thing can be said before my first two shots..

What you are saying is not only untrue at worst, misleading at best, but also..... dangerous.

Stop. Turn around. And think next time.

i am not anti-vax.... i am even boosted.... but tell me this.... does it not scare you? even a little bit? that the covid vaccines are bringing in more profit to pharmaceutical companies than ever before in history? does it not scare you that unlike the fda regulated meds we see on tv with all of those disclaimers, the potential side effects/heart problems being associated w the vaccine are not being pushed on us adamently? idc if it's not common..... if a tv commercial has to tell me my antidepressants have a 1% chance of giving me diarrhea then i need to know abt the vaccine risks.... i literally saw a mutual today who's having to wear a heart monitor after getting a booster.... nobody told me abt that risk before i got mine.... not anyone.... and there is literally money at the center of this..... sooooo much money.... and i hate that it cannot even be talked about without ppl being like ahhhhh ! u are antivax and a DEMON ! like no.... i am vaxxed..... i wear my mask if i have to go out.... etc.... i am just thinking critically abt how the execs at the pharmaceutical companies are making more money off this pandemic than u can even wrap ur head around & remaining hyperaware of what money CAN and does do to human morality...... and we should be able to discuss all of this openly for real like..... the lack of ability to openly discuss this is so dangerous what the hell

#yes i did make a new tumblr account for this