#i love this schrodinger's homosexual so much

[computerillness]

Mr. Green <3

#mr green #clue 1985 #i love this schrodinger's homosexual so much

[lowerdomain]

gayness is something Else entirely because good god, what a struggle. it's beautiful and love endures but good lord does it hurt. there's so much uncertainty, and then when you've grown up in a situation where it's condemned it's wondering whether or not you're allowed to feel it, not just whether you feel it period or not. it's schrodinger's personality trait because being gay isn't a personality /trait/ but it shapes so much about personalities and one's life that. not even just GAY gayness like, the state of not being cishet in general. constantly feeling like "oh no am i too needy" because how am i supposed to navigate a place i've never been allowed to set foot in properly.

Yes! Exactly! You understand.

It's even more complex for me. I've spent two lifetimes with one foot in the closet. Everyone who knew me then knew I was gay, everyone who knows me now knows I'm gay, but I wasn't open about it and I'm still not open about it.

Some of it is protecting myself from others; from predators, from the government, from those who would kill me for my sexuality and gender. Some of it is a fear of intimacy, of anyone knowing me, of knowing myself.

I would have told Ken a lifetime ago if it weren't for the culture at the time. The world is much more accepting now, but when I lived in the time where homosexuality was criminalized, it's terrifying to try to be honest in a world that is the same world yet different.

And I know he feels it too. Not only was his only real love an abuser, back home, not only was he alive in an era where our love was illegal, but he's religious. Like, "believes in the Christian/Catholic God" religious. And we all know how the church treats the "sin" that is a man loving another man, even now.

When you've lived in this world twice over, and both times, so many parties were honing in on your love for other men... How are you supposed to understand your love?

#hyacinth.dat #past life tag #system tag #sorry for the ramble and for kinda taking the topic and making it about me #but I have a lot of feelings about this as a fictive

[deanwasalwaysbi]

Thinking About How This Wasn't Actually a Denial

But was it self preservation?

The year was 2013 and rather than a denial, Jensen said "Don't ruin it for everybody now."

What was the fan 'ruining' for everybody? The Con? or something else? So if I was a tinhatter - and sometimes I am - I might think about other tv shows from the past that were covertly queer and how they handled the question, were TV shows 'out'?

Mainstream shows like Bewitched, you know, shows that are so clearly straight, you can tell because... well. ... they never technically used the word 'gay'. ... witches honor

SPN Film Studies is Back in Session! Join Under the Cut for more on supernatural & the story about how Bewitched! came out of the Broom Closet

Bewitched aired from 1964-72, it's so old the first season was in B&W. The show starred Elizabeth Montgomery as Samantha, the strange housewife with a stranger secret. Her husband, Darrin, unwittingly married into the whole witchy family, from the now drag icon Agnes Moorehead's Endora with her open marriage, to the unmarried and batty Aunt Clara (Marion Lorne who played the mother in Hitchcock's heavily gay coded 'Strangers on a Train'), to the extremely coded Uncle Arthur (gay actor Paul Lynde). (We can't know for sure, but it seems at least 4 members of the cast were gay themselves.) The core premise of the show involves Samantha balancing who she really is with repressing that self for the safety and comfort of her family.

Samantha and her husband keep her [ahem] 'queer' nature a secret which gets harder on Samantha when she has to tell her daughter to live the same way, “I know what fun it is to be a part of the magical life ... to have so much at your fingertips. But we’re living in a world that’s just not ready for people like us, and I’m afraid they may never be. So you’re going to have to learn when you can use your witchcraft and when you can’t.”

There are plenty of generic 60s wacky hijinks but there are also whole episodes metaphorically about repression being harmful, episodes where characters asked if another was a 'thespian', episodes where Darrin was queercoded while under a spell, episodes about representation & bad stereotyping in media, and even two episodes where witches discussed whether it was time for witches to come out to the mortals, (whether mortals could accept that they were just nice normal people trying to live their lives like everybody else - or not - and would just freak out and kill them again).

When it came time to recast Dick York's Darrin with a new 2nd lead, Elizabeth and her husband, William Asher, knowingly cast the gay Dick Sergeant. (Although he wasn't out publicly at the time.) Then, when Sergeant came out in '91, Montgomery supported him and the two served together as the grand marshals of the Hollywood pride parade.

Dick Sargent expressed in the 90s what he would want in a Bewitched reunion episode: for Darrin to meet another like couple, a witch and a mortal who are married, and another, and another, and end up forming a whole community and support group, finding out that it was never so uncommon after all, that it was actually "about 10% of the population." The two would march in the first mortals and witches pride parade, saying they should have come out years ago.

In '94, Montgomery had this to say about the queer themes of the show, “Don't think that didn't enter our minds at the time. We talked about it on the set, that this was about people not being allowed to be what they really are. If you think about it, Bewitched is about repression in general and all the frustration and trouble it can cause. It was a neat message to get across to people at that time in a subtle way.” (x)

Interviewer: Are you concerned that your involvement in the gay-pride parade will lead people to believe you're a lesbian?

"[Laughing] I'm really not worried about that. There are bigger things to worry about. Like the presidential election and finding a cure for AIDS. I did the parade in support of Dick. I mean, in the end, didn't we all?" (x) (Montgomery was also one of the first celebrity allies to fight for LGBTQ rights and support HIV/AIDS-related fundraisers.)

So did they talk about it at the time? No. You can bet they didn't speak about it publicly. What would have happened if a fan, publicly, had asked Elizabeth, William, or Dick about the show's queer allegory content? This was a time when being gay was a literal felony. They would have had to have lied or risked losing the show, their careers, and possibly subjecting themselves to violence.

Now. back to Jensen and the Schrodinger's long con:

This was in 2013 - The same year that the Supreme Court of the United States struck down a federal ban on gay marriage. You certainly couldn't call homosexuality illegal in the US at that time. It's the same year that Dabb and Sgriccia spoke about the Aaron moment on the DVD and whether there's 'this potential for love in all places' for Dean. Of course Jensen said this about the very same scene: "But it was - you know - it was comedy. It was a comedic moment in the show and fortunately Dean gets a lot of the comedic moments in the show and it was just, you know, Ben was poking fun at the fact that - you know, how can we make this very kind of manly, heterosexual guy uncomfortable - uh -you know, or  or have him back on his heels and throw him off his game a little bit.”

I'm reminded of 2012 when Ben Edlund stepped in about a Destiel question at comic con, pretending it was some freaky thing that fans had made up even though he'd already written and directed TMWWBK, which had already aired.

Jensen: “What’s Destiel?” Ben Edlund: That’s some weird shit. Jensen: Is this something that you created, Ben? Ben: You don’t want any part of that.

Or the next year for season 9 when Jensen said “I think the whole Cas and Dean thing has gotten out of hand”  “I don’t think there’s anything secret to their relationship even though a lot of people wish there was” EVEN THOUGH- that season we got the nightstands acknowledgement and Misha (or both of them?) was told to “play him like a jilted lover”

Or Jensen's knowing bromance smile in 2015

I think recent events (cough spn gate) have made clear that the network and many viewers were still uncomfortable with CAS being gay in 2020, deleting even familial mentions of Cas from the finale episodes once he was revealed to be not only gay but also in love with Dean. (x) (x) (x) Can you imagine then what Warner Brothers would have said to an acknowledge bisexual Dean Winchester in 2013? Granted, there was no Trump election, but legitimate, could that have been the end of the show? Or the Russian and Conservative US viewership? Is it possible that Jensen would have feared so?

Is it possible that Jensen had a more personal reason for a knee jerk defensive response?

So was Jensen covering in 2013? Well. This happened 5 years later in 2018:

That hostile "? No." came even though Misha confirmed that he and Jensen had discussed Destiel by that point. Granted, discussing Destiel as a concept and accepting Dean being inherently bisexual are two very different things - Cas is GN after all - still, less than encouraging.

I may never get over the jumps back and forth that Jensen did. At this point I think there's no denying that a lot of SPN's queer content was on purpose, even as writers and actors were telling fans and network execs otherwise. Yet when each person involved was brought in? that question haunts me at night. I have gone off before about the timeline in my pursuit of whether Jensen was Ben Hur'd (x) and, if so, for how long. I'm sure many in this fandom have so much to add.

In the meantime we'll just have to cherish this moment from 2019:

Interviewer: 'So, tell us just a little bit about what you’re most excited to tackle with your character this final season.’ Jensen: “Cas. Just like a full football form tackle.”

Bewitched references in SPN:

2.05 - Dean: Well, it looks like he can't work his mojo just by twitching his nose, he's gotta use verbal commands.

2.20 - Dean says Barbara Eden was hotter than Elizabeth Montgomery - sigh - Dean.

7.05 - Dean thinks a husband has no idea his wife is a witch, and refers to him as Darrin. Dean also indicates he likes the first Darrin better. - (I guess I can't make a comment about how much TV Dean watched as a kid if I get all of his references and also haven't saved the world.)

14.03 - Jules refers to the witch as 'Brunhilde' - this is a minor character in bewitched but more so from mythology and likely referred to the cartoon witch from WB cartoons - the stereotypical witch that faced bugs bunny with the green skin and straw hair.

let me know if you have any to add. Stay Witchy ✌

#jensen ackles #jackles long con #dean was always bi #spn film studies #spn queercoding #Spn tinhatting #ben hur treatment #bewitched #queercoding #Caslighting #Spn gaslighting #elizabeth montgomery #dick sargent #paul lynde #original content #Marion Lorne #Marion Lorne was also in a show called the gay adventure in 1932 but i dont have any information on the plot #and to quote misha. it's probably gay like happy #Schrodinger's long con

[nightcoremoon]

part of the problem we as people have with communication on any subject- politics, race, science- is that everybody has their own definition of most words. liberal, progressive, privilege, ethnicity, gender, climate. they all mean different things to different people. and I don't mean that the ~official merriam webster~ definition changes depending on who you are like schrodinger's dictionary. the dictionary is just a book that some people use, like the bible or the magna carta or mein kampf. it isn't some magical holy text delivered to us straight from the loving tentacle arms of the flying spaghetti monster. it's just words on a page that some people decided to follow. like in the book frindle by andrew clements, about the kid who started using the made up word frindle as a synonym to pen.

think of the inverse of "you say potato, he says potahto". you both say apple but you're talking about an actual apple and he's talking about a potato. technically in french he'd be right. the pomme de'terre, the apple of the earth, is a potato in english. we use the same words that mean different things. but that's an intralingual example.

you say science meaning the system of making an observation then developing a hypothesis then making a control group and analyzing data blah blah blah the scientific method. he says science meaning the studies of geology, astronomy, biology, chemistry, etc. you're both talking about different things and you're both right and you're both saying the same word but debate can spring up because you say you used science to determine if you could predict the weather based on how many blue cars you see drive by your house- in that you made the hypothesis "the number of blue cars that drive by my house will determine whether it rains or not tomorrow" and then made control groups where you flipped a coin, checked the weather forecast, and counted grey cars, and the study group where you counted blue cars, and drew a conclusion that "there is no correlation in the number of blue cars versus the results of the weather"- but he says that's not science since well duh there's no correlation between cars and climate, and you didn't even use a friggin barometer or microscope, so of course that it's science. technically you're right in that it is science in a sense, but technically he's right in that it's not an official field of scientific study and research.

some people are gay. some people are homosexual. some people are queer. some people are LGBT. gay and homosexual and queer and LGBT are very frequently used as synonyms. but not every gay person is queer or homosexual or LGBT, not every queer person is gay or homosexual or LGBT, not every homosexual person is gay or queer or LGBT, and not every LGBT aligned person is gay or queer or homosexual. if I said that to a straight person their brains would probably just fuckin explode. "but I thought homosexual means being attracted to the same gender as yourself, gay means happy or a man being attracted to another man, queer means strange and is a slur against LGBT people, and LGBT means lesbian, gay, uuuhhh bicycle, and... trains?" well sharon, yes and no in parts. homosexual does mean being attracted to the same gender as yourself. gay does encompass male androphilia. and the L and G do stand for lesbian and gay. depending on which person you ask the definition for. according to google, gay means homosexual AND lighthearted & carefree AND brightly colored & showy & brilliant AND foolish/unimpressive AND a homosexual man, homosexual is both a noun and adjective describing a person sexually attracted to their own gender, queer means strange/odd AND ill AND not relating to heterosexual norms AND a homosexual man AND rarely as a verb to spoil or ruin an agreement/event/situation, and LGBT is an acronym encompassing Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender people. if I were to define the words in regards to sexuality: gay can be an umbrella term for the entirety of the LGBT community OR a descriptive term of self reference for anyone who doesn't fit into heterosexual idealogy OR a man who is sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other men, homosexual is a descriptive term for same-gender relationships, & queer is used as an umbrella term for the entirety of the LGBT community AND/OR descriptor for any sexual or romantic orientation or gender identity that doesn't fit into conventional cisheteronormative OR binary LGBT ideologies, and LGBT in itself is an outdated acronym that excludes queer and aro/ace aligned individuals and intersex people who with to be a part of the community and everyone else that doesn't really "fit in" in that. similarly to bisexual/pansexual/polysexual/omnisexual/etc, the labels gay/queer/LGBT are all functionally the same but can mean different things to different people. some lesbians might be like "don't call me gay", some gays might be like "don't call me queer", some queers might be like "don't call me LGBT" or whatever since their own definitions of their own identities are different than what other people say that they are.

also consider how words like ill, bad, stupid, fat (to phat), and n*gger (to n*gga) (which all conventionally carry negative connotations) were adopted by the hip hop community to be changed from being sick, terrible, dumb, overweight, and a racial slur, to meaning things like cool, awesome, high quality, and brethren. in fact those latter definitions mostly aren't on google. (blah blah rap music blah blah black culture blah blah white supremacy blah blah fascists run google.)

in the interests of brevity, I'll just say that liberal and progressive and libertarian and socialist and anarchist and communist and leftist and democrat all mean different things but they're used interchangeable by some people who don't know better and wouldn't know the differences if it bit them in the ass since they're already so stupid they think that "both sides are the same". they're all insults used by the "other side" used on anyone who disagrees with their shitty ideology. also republican and conservative and right wing mean different things from each other and also from alt right and nazi and fascist, even if the lines are so blurred because there's so much overlap in them nowadays. but still, i see the right wing call the left wing idiots because a person said a fascist (bolsonaro or hassanal for example) was a nazi despite having no connection to hitler rather than ask "so which definition of nazi are you using".

we'd make a lot more progress if people would just for once assume that there's a linguistic blockade between some disagreements and ask for clarification of points rather than zero in on buzzwords and pop up red bars and start blaring ironsides like it's kill bill because your definition of idk liberal or whatever is different than theirs. of course all of the people who perpetuate this problem would need to pull their heads out of their asses for five seconds so this whole post is fucking useless since everyone who agrees ALREADY KNOWS but whatever.