#Anyway I've been elated by the musical causing Odysseus art and posts but I do have noticed that he is very goodified in it and that

[longagoitwastuesday]

I keep thinking of that reply in my Odysseus/Agamemnon post about how I regard differently Odysseus' and Agamemnon's actions, while acknowledging that at times Agamemnon is written as a sweet man and Odysseus is always straight up shitty, and how it was taken as some sort of defense for Agamemnon and as a form of pointing out the double standard; and that wasn't at all what the post was about for me, even though I can see where they were coming from. To be honest, given I didn't imagine it would spread anywhere other than my own blog, I didn't explain myself very well (or at all).

The fact is that when I talked about Odysseus not caring about hurting someone else's child to start and end a war I was indeed comparing his actions to Agamemnon's, but my words about supporting Odysseus' wrongs and cheering him in his terrible actions, while in a joking tone, weren't entirely a joke. I do think that Odysseus does some very shitty acts, and some quite terrible ones depending on the sources. That's a fact, that he does is at the core of his characterisation and it's what makes him so much fun; but not even when he is at his most cruel does he harm his family, his own son. Agamemnon, while sweet and loving at times in some texts, at his worst is willing to sacrifice Iphigenia. When readers regard with more sympathy Odysseus over Agamemnon despite both being responsible for children dying, I don't think there's a double standard in this aspect at all considering it's never his own kid Odysseus harms. And that's the key, I think.

Odysseus and Agamemnon have very different priorities, a very different view on loyalty and duty. It could be said that Agamemnon acts out of selfishness, but it could also be read in a kinder light, saying that Agamemnon is ruled by the gods first, and by his role as head of the achaeans; Agamemnon is not entirely himself. In opposition we see Odysseus acting perhaps mainly for himself and his own family and men; yes, he is a king, but he has not the role Agamemnon has. As a consequence, Agamemnon submits his family's wellbeing to the war, to the gods, while Odysseus stops the plow before hurting Telemachus but is (depending on the source) the cause of Iphigenia's sacrifice and Astyanax's death.

Both Odysseus and Agamemnon have reasons to support their actions, and both can be sympathised with; it's fiction after all. When it comes to fiction, at the end of the day which character a reader is drawn to or sympathises with is mainly an issue of personal taste, but I suppose it also implies a certain level of one's own views or preferences on morals, what makes us find certain actions more justifiable, or tasteful (perhaps that's a more accurate word), than others. Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter, no matter how sympathetic or understandable the reason, generally sits worse on people than Odysseus doing the same with someone else's kids, because they're someone else's. This different emotional reaction they provoke has place not just metanarratively, but also inside the very story; it is narratively significant, given it determines how their arrival home plays out, how their wives react to them, and thus their futures. Ultimately it determines whether they live or die.

I think both terrible acts go in line wonderfully with each characterisation, showcasing the role they hold in their world, what they value, what they care for, what they're willing to sacrifice for themselves and the others, how much of their own they're willing to give and bend. While looking at the wider picture it could perhaps be drawn that Agamemnon is the better person out of the two, but Odysseus' selfish actions are perhaps easier to empathise with, especially from a modern viewpoint. Odysseus is treacherous and prone to betrayal, but not against his own; Agamemnon follows the rules of the gods. How fitting in that context that Odysseus doesn't die at the end of his story, that he cheats the death heroes so often are fated to, almost as if cheating the narrative itself, bending the rules of the world he is ascribed to; how fitting in the context of those texts that point towards Sisyphus being his father. But that's another topic, and I've already talked a lot.

#Don't get me wrong. Odysseus is super shitty and this is a 'pick your poison' kind of situation #But I don't really think there's a double standard when it comes to the kids situation given that Odysseus doesn't sacrifice his own kid #I really think that's what lies at the core of this. Does that make him shittier and more selfish and a worse person? Actually yeah perhaps #But we are no kings with thousands of people depending on our decision yet cringe at the idea of hurting people close to us #It feels like betrayal. And this is where the moral preference takes the role. Which do you prefer? The one that would betray their family #for the greater good or the one who'd sell the world for their family and themselves? It's interesting because #while in fiction the first option is often the most frown upon while selfish actions for the beloved are easy to sympathise with‚ #in reality these are usually worse regarded. I didn't want to go there because I already wrote so much it didn't fit in the tags #but I actually think the same thing happens with Galahad/Lancelot. Heathcliff/Edgar I'd say has a somewhat similar situation going on #There are many many examples but mainly I was thinking of Galahad and Lancelot #So this is not an 'Odysseus did nothing wrong'. This is an 'Odysseus did many things very wrong but he didn't kill his son #so while both him and Agamemnon were the cause of death of kids‚ their action are not the same so there's no double standard regarding #the particular action of sacrificing Iphigenia. In fiction that kind of betrayal makes characters often unlikeable' #I guess that action 'stains' the view under which Agamemnon's actions are seen and so his character is often seen under a darker light #He is presented a bit as an antagonistic presence opposed to Achilles who is very popular so I guess that also influences this? #Anyway I've been elated by the musical causing Odysseus art and posts but I do have noticed that he is very goodified in it and that #it has influenced how he is being regarded around here (the way it happened with The Song of Achilles as well I suppose) #And I must say I like that less. He is shitty in a fun way but not in a light way. He is very shitty #Definitely not better than Agamemnon depending on the perspective you take. I can't believe I'm 'defending' Agamemnon #He is not my thing at all I'm all for selfish actions for oneself and the loved ones through manipulation‚ #lies and scams and letting the world drown if needed. In fiction Lancelot's‚ Odysseus' and Heathcliff's actions are a lot more preferible #to me than Galahad's‚ Agamemnon's and Edgar's. But yeah #I ALSO didn't want to go there because again it would have take me forever and I would run out of tags (yet here I am) #but there's also a Priam/Hector/Paris comparison in how they act and how they're regarded to be drawn here #Agamemnon/Iphigenia‚ Priam/Hector/Paris‚ Odysseus/Telemachus. And that is not even including everything with Elektra/Clytemnestra/Orestes #or Oedipus and his own family for that matter #But yes. I'll better shut up already. I'm talking a lot more than I intended #I just found that discussion super enthralling and I couldn't stop thinking about it. I still can't #I talk too much #I should probably delete this later