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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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There’s another side to this, too. I don’t sympathize with Moash, for one reason and one reason only. The betrayal. He’s done horrible things, killed people for bad reasons, yes, but that’s not the problem. As has been stated, so has Adolin and lots of other people. He killed Elhokar. He killed Jezrien. He’s motivated by bitterness and anger (and a great deal of other things). Okay. I can forgive that, assuming he tries to change in the future and fix his motivations. I can see why he did it, and I can see justification for many of them (although I don’t buy that he killed Elhokar for the sake of the Singers. That was personal, no doubt in my mind. Of course, Adolin killing Sadeas was also personal and not really better when considered objectionably, except that Adolin hated himself for it. He felt ashamed of what he had done. He wanted to fix himself. Moash did not. He showed no indication of change. But that’s not my point. (besides, he still could change... maybe...)) But there’s one thing. Just one thing that I can’t forgive.

Its not even killing Elhokar. Not about any of his killings or violence. Just one thing.

He betrayed Kaladin. He took the one true friend he had, the only man who actually cared about him and trusted him and confided in him, and he trampled all over his trust, for the sake of his own petty vengeance. That, to me, is nearly unforgivable. Such a complete lack of loyalty, such a complete disregard for the trust placed in him, and it didn’t even seem to be an internal struggle for him. I’m not just saying this because I love Kaladin and think that anyone that hurts him needs to die (I mean, I do, but that’s not why I’m saying this). Its not a matter of who he betrayed. Its the fact that the person he betrayed loved and cared for and trusted him so much.

If we had eventually found out that Mare had really Kelsier, I would have hated her equally. Because to me, loyalty is everything. (thankfully, I don’t have to hate Mare and can love her unconditionally instead because she’s not a horrible person)

TL:DR i don’t hate Moash because of his actions or motivations, i don’t hate him because he killed Elhokar who had so much potential (though I am sad for those things, I don’t hate him for them). But I DO hate Moash. I hate him because of his betrayal of the greatest form of trust that has ever been put in him and the closest friend he has ever had.

What do you think about Moash killing Elhokar? *hoping for a huge meta or critical analysis here*

I have talked about this a lot in the past, but it’s been a while! I’ve also read a lot of different thoughts and responses to my posts and ideas since then. I don’t think my core views about it and him have changed, but I want to write this all out from some different angles!

There’s something I cannot stress enough when it comes to Moash, and that’s that you can’t judge his character by how convenient he is for our protagonists! He’s still doing what he believes to be right, he just happened to end up on a different side in all this. I understand that Elhokar was a beloved character, and I don’t judge anyone who dislikes Moash for having killed him. But I really don’t think it’s fair to say that killing Elhokar makes him a bad person. This isn’t about whether this killing was right or justified or anything like that, this is just about not holding Moash to a different standard than all the other characters.

Let me try to explain what I mean. Taking a step back, Moash hasn’t actually killed all that much. Definitely not compared to most other main characters. I’m not just referring to characters like Szeth and Dalinar here, and while I’m willing to write away Shallan’s kills as self-defense, Kaladin has also killed more people than him and Adolin has killed waaaaaaay more people. I have to wonder if there’s something about how Moash killed Elhokar that makes it different and worse than all these others.

My instinct is to say that the reason people are so upset at him is because we knew and liked Elhokar and because we’re familiar enough with Moash for him to be a direct target or anger. If some random soldier had killed Elhokar, it would have been sad but not a lot more. And if Moash had just killed some of the other guards that Kallie had been getting to know, I think the most of a reaction that would have gotten would have been to demonstrate that he had been present. I can’t speak for how invested any of you were with either or these characters up to that point, but the very fact that we knew both of them was enough to get a personal reaction. But I really don’t think that personal investment from the audience is enough to be able to call Moash a bad person, in a scene where Adolin’s stabbing six people at once and pulling cool stunts like that. As an audience, we’re obviously going to be biased. But in my opinion, unless there was something inherently different about how Moash killed Elhokar, I don’t think it’s right to judge him differently for that.

Was there something different? I actually think there was. Moash knew and hated Elhokar. He hated everything Elhokar and his aristocracy stood for. (Not to mention the whole deaths of his grandparents thing, you know?) One way or another, his desire to enact revenge on Elhokar was the reason Moash was here. Whether this was an act of cold vengeance (as most people interpret it) or whether his vengeance was simply the means by which he found himself there (as I interpret it), it definitely played a role in that scene.

I’m going to have to leave it up to your personal moral code to determine how you view revenge. Because I actually do think it makes a difference, even though it’s hard to articulate why. It feels wrong, killing someone because you want them dead rather than out of any “necessity.” That feels worse of an act. Someone else’s death should never be something that one can have just because they desire it. Or in other words, emotional gratification is not a legitimate reason to kill someone. Then again, I don’t think it’s worse to fight someone who has legitimately wronged you than I think it is to kill someone who’s only there because they’re following orders. I know some people feel that Moash was more justified, not less, because he had actual grievances with Elhokar. I can’t personally get behind that at any level past a way of understanding Moash’s actions, but it’s not exactly wrong either.

Either way, Moash didn’t get any satisfaction out of it. But uh. I think it’s fair to say that he’s somehow worse for all of it.

There is something that was meant to be deeply disappointing about Elhokar’s death. He was weak, confused, lost, an all around bad king. But he desperately wanted to be better, to take responsibility, to actually help his kingdom. I don’t think he had done enough to fully redeem himself, but I didn’t even care because just the fact that he was trying was enough for me. I wanted for him to succeed! I wanted him to change and be a real leader and become everything he could have become. I think the fact that he died while in the middle of his oaths was meant to just be even more on the nose about it. It’s not exactly the same as losing a character we care about and have been through a lot with, it’s more than that as well because we also lost all that potential. We’ll never get to see him finish his story and become the person he wanted to be.

Moash makes for a very good target to vent this disappointment at. After all, he did literally kill Elhokar. There’s always that argument that Moash had no way of knowing that Elhokar was changing, but the more I think about it, I really don’t think he would’ve cared even if he had known. Maybe if he had stayed behind with Bridge Four, he could have been given some form of justice or reparations and worked on a long process of forgiveness with Kaladin to help him. In his place with the singers, I doubt that what kind of person Elhokar was would have mattered to him at all.

My interpretation of Moash in that moment is sort of unusual. I don’t view his actions as good or bad. I view them as actions of a soldier who’s doing his job. Elhokar was Moash’s enemy and he was a very powerful and influential enemy. I also see the argument from the other side that even if Moash had thought he was getting justice, he was still in the wrong. And I take issue with that as well.

I guess what I can say is that even if Moash had killed Elhokar for no other reason than personal gratification, it was the “right” thing for him to do. This is a very controversial opinion, so I really want to restate that you can’t judge him by whether his actions are good for the protagonists or not. He’s working for the singers, and I think he has very legitimate reasons to be doing so. That means that the right thing for Moash to do is going to be different from whatever’s more beneficial to the human side. Elhokar’s death was tactically useful for Moash’s side. Whether or not Moash also got satisfaction from killing him, I don’t actually find as important as a lot of people might.

I don’t actually think that Moash was fully-motivated by personal vengeance when he killed Elhokar. I think he had already given himself over to the greater cause of helping the singers reclaim their home at that point. I think he also viewed Elhokar as a murderer and resented him for how Kaladin had protected him. So I won’t pretend he wasn’t invested. But I do think it was more than just personal desire that drove him to kill Elhokar. He had shown throughout the book to care about the success and wellbeing of the singers. I don’t think he would have been on that battlefield as a soldier in the first place if he hadn’t actually been invested in helping them.

With all that being said. I think Moash was made a worse person for what he’d done. I would say that the reasons for this began long before he actually killed Elhokar though. For all his time as a slave he was tired and resigned. The only real spark of passion in him was that anger he had. Once he had killed Elhokar, he no longer had any purpose or anything to live for. He didn’t get any pleasure or enjoyment from killing Elhokar, but he also lost himself in doing so. He’s in a bad place when we next see him. The thought of killing someone means little to him, and the thought of using the rest of his life to do mindless labour means even less. Something to remember about him is that at that point he was no longer a slave, but he chose to act as one for the singers. I guess…tying one’s entire existence to a revenge quest is a bad thing for mental health?

I find Moash’s and Elhokar’s stories to be more tragic than anything else. I’m still holding out to see what kind of things Vyre will do. I have certain hopes, fears, and expectations there, but I’d rather just wait.

For my final note, I don’t think Elhokar deserved to die. I don’t think it’s possible for someone to “deserve” to die. But I also don’t think Moash was “wrong” in what he did either. They were on different sides of a war. It is what it is.

#wow this post is getting long #we should have included a break at some point #moash #Stormlight Archive #Oathbringer spoilers #oathbringer #the break probably should have been included early on #sorry to all my followers #all 2 of you

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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Honor: the super strict mission president who the missionaries are always talking about but nobody except Dalinar has ever seen. Has no idea how much disobedience is actually happening in his mission. (its an inordinate amount, to spite his strictness)

Sixth of the Dusk: got his Eagle Scout at age 12, but never actually talks to the other YM

Galladon: Raoden’s inactive Home Teaching (Ministering) assignment who offers him a beer every time he visits, and welcomes him in just so that he has someone to complain to (secretly he really appreciates Raoden’s friendship)

Khriss: knows everything there is to know about the scriptures and gospel, but has never been baptized. Everyone assumes she’s a member already

Dilaf: stands outside the building every week with protest signs screaming. Everyone gives him a perturbed sideways glance, but otherwise ignores him

Ham: YM counselor, gets really enthused about and is constantly trying to plan treks and camp-outs and 50 mile hikes

The Cosmere LDS Ward AU No One Asked For

Kaladin: that one dad that doesn’t believe but makes all of his many sons go because he thinks it’s good for them

Shallan: conscientious Laurel’s president, gives a very nice testimony every few months so no one realizes how messed up her life is

Dalinar: the bishop that everyone’s a little scared of but he makes you feel needed and valued. Gives great repentance counsel because he knows what it’s like

Jasnah: has 5 pages to herself in local missionaries’ area book. Every new set tries contacting her, it’s like a rite of passage

Sarene and Raoden: YW and YM president power couple. “The glow” seems a bit more literal for Raoden than for most people

Hrathen: the RM who brags about his mission so much it makes everyone uncomfortable. Secretly using his mission stories to hide a serious faith crisis

Lightsong: his Sunday school teacher’s worst nightmare. Really does want to know the answers to his stupid questions, though

Llarimar: extremely overworked ward clerk, the walking personification of “magnify your calling”

Vasher: has been inactive for 40 years and grumbles about his home teachers but will be a GA one day, probably

Vin: Golden Investigator ™

Elend: started off just just wanting to make Vin happy but then the missionaries gave him a stack of books

Sazed: makes the best comments in gospel doctrine, everyone goes to him for advice

Hoid: only shows up a few times a year, but there’s a persistent rumor that he’s one of the 3 Nephites

#cosmere #cfsbf #cosmere ward au #yessss #this is too good #I don't want to see it die #keep it going until we get ALL of the characters #all of them

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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The trick is that future-seeing in and of itself is not a bad thing. “Be wary of anyone who sees the future” is really just a Vorin teaching (hence why guessing games are considered taboo), and when its used by non-Vorin people I generally see it as saying “be cautious with anyone that has the power to see (limitedly) into the future” because as a power its bad to rely upon, since the future isn’t set in stone. For example, in Secret History, Preservation explains that following the strands of time in the Spiritual Realm to understand the future is incredibly difficult since it has an infinite amount of divergence. Its all possibilities. Nothing that is seen in the future is actually set. (Vin manages to prove this point by literally out-predicting Atium use by Zane).

Mortals especially can only use any kind of future-seeing power to a very limited extent, but its still powerful, so its easy to become reliant on it. And that is something that should definitely not be done. Be wary of anyone who sees the future, not because they are of Odium, but because they are likely to rely on it, and sooner or later it will let them down.

Be wary of anyone who sees the future

Like, oh you know, Taravangian?

I swear the Diagram is one big Odium fuckery. Odium is leading him by the nose, and Mr T still thinks he can get the better deal.

#future-seeing #cosmere #theory

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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Shallan: I shouldn’t lightweave for my date with Adolin, what if he falls in love with the enhanced face and not the unmagicked one?

Adolin, sweeping on shimmer highlighter to complete his contour: hey ren do you think i should do a color lip with this eyeshadow or stick to a light gloss

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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I’ve got a birthday in late March, so this post comes true every year for me.

Happiness Will Come To You.

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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(spoilery bit for Hero of Ages)

Atium was a sealed part of Ati’s power. In the remaking of the world, then, I would assume that Harmony reclaimed the power. That would mean the pits no longer spontaneously produce their Atium. (The Well didn’t spontaneously produce Lerasium, so its safe to assume that the Atium production happened because of Preservation’s interference) However, with two shards there would be two particularities. We know the pits were one.

And then we realize that Khriss and Nazh are present on Scadrial during the Bands of Mourning. They have gone through one of the two particularities. I suppose its possible that they used the Well, since its not as dangerous without Ruin trapped within, but I would imagine its still pretty inaccessible, especially since there has yet to be any of even legends regarding it’s location. The pits, on the other hand, are still physically accessible... with the power of the perpendicularity coalescing again... Its likely that its already active as such and that that’s where K and N came through.

I suspect more so than Atium’s return, we’ll see a lot more worldhopping. Of course, I could be very wrong, and will be jumping up and down screaming in excitement like a child when I discover that Atium really is making a comeback. Because holy frigging crap that’s exciting.

Pits of Hathsin

I’m sure I’m not the first to notice this, but

Hmm just in time for the second era…

And isn’t the next book going to be called The Lost Metal?

Atium is about to make a comeback

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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I love to imagine the Shards’ participation in the creation or discovery of ‘humanity’ on their worlds, because really, some of these local versions of humans are so far removed from Yolen’s original ‘humans’…

——————————–

Devotion and Dominion: well, we’ve created nice, normal humans here for the most part, but what about the ones too packed with Investiture to stay that way?

Devotion and Dominion: … [look at each other]

Dominion: …aesthetic?

Devotion: aesthetic

—

Ruin: okay, good, we’ve pretty much replicated humans right (I think) with the addition of some cool new metal powers. we contributed equally. right? right. and I get to kill them all later

Preservation: [looks up from imbuing humans with some of his own self]

Preservation: ….yes.

—

Endowment: huh, there’s already people here? imma pick the ones I like and make them SUPER TALL and SMOKIN’ HOT

—

Honor: dear. dear, can we please try to make normal humans

Cultivation: NO NO NO okay look at this if we cross this strain with the natives then they get STONE FINGERNAILS. LITERAL STONE.

Honor: dear

Cultivation: and if we incorporate this version then instead of stone nails you get hair and skin that’s metallic gold HOW COOL IS THAT

Honor: honey

Cultivation: AND THESE ONES GET SHELL-CRUNCHING MOLAR PLATES AND SUPER JAW STRENGTH

Honor: please

Cultivation: and they’re all gonna display hair colour inheritance by PERCENTAGE

Cultivation: and that’s not even getting to the Invested ones

Honor: …

Cultivation: now get over here and do your bit

Honor: …yes dear.

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ll give it a shot. I welcome anyone who wants to fact check me.

First, let’s break down the two magic systems. For reference’s sake, we understand that magic in the Cosmere in general requires two things: access to Investiture (the source of the power) and a Key (what determines how the power is used). Let me also preface this by saying that I’m working under the understanding that Investiture is actually just the Spiritual Realm, and things that use it are really just touching it, channeling it.

Surgebinding: We need basically three things here. We need stormlight, access to a specific surge with which to use it, and a Nahel Bond (or the honorblade, etc). The Nahel Bond, in my understanding, is unique of the three in that its not directly responsible for the use of the magic. Rather, its basically the thing that goes in and modifies the cracks of the individual’s spirit web to allow them to access investiture. So eliminating that, we have stormlight and the surge. We know that magic in the Cosmere needs Investiture to power it and a Key to determine what it does. (On Sel, the key is the shapes, on Scadrial, the type of metal burned, etc) Stormlight, then, is the source of Investiture being accessed. Its like a little window into Investiture, into the Spiritual Realm, powered by Honor’s Perpendicularity in the middle of the HighStorm. The specific type of surge, dictated by the type of bond, is the Key, since it determines how the stormlight is used.

Now lets look at Feruchemy, specifically the special unsealed metalminds. As I recall, they are fairly complicated, so this may get confusing. First, and simplest, the Feruchemist in question must be storing all of their Identity in something. That way its not specific to them. Next, they must store Investiture. Sources of Investiture are interesting on Scadrial, because (excluding Hemalurgy) they’re built directly into the population by Preservation (This genetic hard baking is like both the Nahel Bond and the Stormlight combined. There’s a little window within their Spirit Web to a specific part of Investiture of the Spiritual Realm itself. The metals you can use and how are like the surges the Bond gives you). Hence why Feruchemy and Allomancy can be inherited genetically. So the Feruchemist stores a specific part of the source of Investiture that they have access to and want to create a metalmind for. (easiest to create allomancy metalmind for a specific metal if you’re also an allomancer of that metal, cause then you don’t have to pull from another metalmind, etc. Its built into your Spiritual DNA). In addition, Investiture must be stored that allows Feruchemical use of Nicrosil in order to access an Investiture metalmind. (I’m not completely certain on that point, but I’m pretty sure it has to be done, so you need two separate bands of Nicrosil.). Somebody taps this metalmind, which was created with no Identity and contains the power to tap metalminds, and then taps the other Nicrosil metalmind to access the Investiture source for a specific power. This is drained as the Investiture is used (keeping with my visual, the window shrinks until it disappears). The person still needs to use a Key. If its an allomantic power, they still need to burn a specific metal or store using a specific type of metalmind for feruchemy, etc. They can only use the specific key that the investiture they’re storing relates to. I keep saying that they’re storing Investiture, but this concept makes me believe that what’s actually being stored is the chunk of SDNA that allows access to Investiture, the window.

Now is when it gets fuzzy. Lets say a full Feruchemist (for simplicity’s sake) becomes a Windrunner through a Nahel Bond. They now have several things. Let’s make a tally. First they have the window into the Investiture from their SDNA. To be clear, it only allows them access to use Investiure Feruchemically. They have a Nahel Bond, which modifies another part of their Spirit Web to allow them to take in and use other windows to Investiture, in the form of Stormlight. To be clear, this window only allows them access to use Investiture according to the two surges they have (Gravitation and Adhesion in the case of our example). Now, when they take in stormlight, they have two windows. If they don’t have stormlight, they have one window and a spot for another one. Its important to keep in mind that Scadrial’s magic Key requires a physical object, metals. Roshar’s magic Key does not. The surges act according to the will of the user. The Feruchemist/Windrunner in question has a bunch of metals in front of him to use as metalminds. Everything so far points to the idea that he would be store either one of his two windows to Investiture into a Nicrosil metalmind. However, he doesn’t have one of the windows when he doesn’t have stormlight.

Basically, for our example’s sake, he would be able to suck in a bunch of stormlight, and then store the stormlight, devoid of Identity but specific to the surges. That stormlight could be tapped and used by someone else. However, it could only be used for the two surges that his stormlight-window allowed, Gravitation and Adhesion, and since the person tapping the metalmind doesn’t have a bond they would not be able to take in more stormlight to continue powering their surges. Once the metalmind ran out, they would be unable to use those surges.

So there you have it. I might be way off base, and there’s a good chance that I’ll be proven totally wrong in the future, but that’s my theory based on what I know right now. Thoughts?

Theory/Question

This is my first theory I’ve posted so be kind please with responses.

So, based on what we know from Bands of Mourning, using the right combinations of Feruchemical abilities, a person is able to create an Unsealed metalmind, which anyone can use, regardless of being a Ferring or Misting.

So, what I’m thinking is, is that if someone from Roshar who had bonded with a Spren and became a knight radiant, if they were also somehow a Feruchemist, is it possible that they could infuse a metalmind of some type that anyone could use, with the Surges that they have access to due to their Nahel Bond?

Also, if they were able to do this, would the Surges infused run out, like when a Lashed object runs out of Stormlight, or would the user of whatever type of metalmind created be able to reinvigorate the infused object somehow like how people bonded to Honorblades are able to absorb Stormlight without a bond?

I’d love to hear some feedback on this, I’m really interested in the crossing over of the different types of Investiture in the Cosmere and any help in developing this theory would be awesome!

#cfsbf #theory time #theory #Cosmere #I need to stop #my brain hurts from all this thinking #and my fingers hurt from all this typing #is it bed time yet?#long theory is long and incoherent #incoherent ramblings #stop me please #too many tags?

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leeroybaggins · 6 years

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I could be wrong, but as I understand it, while the shard can’t really leave the place its heavily invested, it can still sort of reach out with some limited influence/power. Example: Autonomy, who is heavily invested on Taldain but still meddles in subtle ways with other worlds of the Cosmere.

Understand, Harmony holds both Ruin and Preservation. Part of Preservation’s power, however, has been put into the people of Scadrial, which is why Preservation was weaker than Ruin when they were separated and had to trap/trick him. That puts a slight inbalance as far as how much power is held by Harmony in Ruin’s favor. I would guess he’s using that extra power to spread out across the cognitive realm in order to investigate the whole matter.

We also know that he has interacted with Hoid, at least, via letter-writing. Not sure how letter-writing works in the context of the Cosmere (Cosmere Postal Service? How would you even address something like that?)

Also worth considering, the spiritual realm has been described as all times and all places and all things existing in one. Unlike the physical and cognitive realms where you are only in one place at a time, they are all connected in the spiritual realm. It takes a lot of mental power to understand anything that is seen there, and in my mind that translates to an expanded consciousness and a whole lot of time. Time which neither Kelser, the Lord Ruler, or Vin had while they held their shards and therefore the ability to look into the spiritual realm. (They each only held it for a very short time) It would be reasonable to think that perhaps when Sazed says he has delved and searched, it was done by following the threads of the Spiritual Realm and trying to sort them out in his mind.

Anyway. Those are my thoughts in the form of a ramble. Anyone wanna fact check me?

Ok, sure, but searched what?

If I remember correctly, neither Kelsier nor Vin got the memories of the previous Vessel of the Shard they picked up, so I doubt Sazed did.

So can a Shard just…search the Cosmere? I thought I read on the Coppermind that once a Shard has heavily Invested their power on a planet it becomes impossible for them to leave. So can they send out a general consciousness without physically leaving? How far can they do this?

Or do Shards come with a So You Became a Shard™ pamphlet with some basic info…?

#cfsbf #cosmere #spiritual realm #Harmony #Sazed #my brain is a giant mess guys #please don't take anything I say as intrinsic fact #because I probably made half of it up #but I honestly don't remember

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