#THAT TRANSMASCS DISCUSSING TRANSANDROPHOBIA AND CREATING THEIR OWN TERM TO DESCRIBE IT IS 'TRANSMISOGYNY' AND | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

yak-leather-whips · 6 months

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So here’s a question I want everybody to answer, and I ask this genuinely: does transmisogyny include trans men? If not, what term should trans men use to refer to the specific intersectional experiences that affect them?

When I first caught wind of all this, the debate was about whether trans men were able to use the term transmisogyny for the ways in which their transness was punished as a result of being seen as a woman. It seems, from what I saw, that the transfeminine community felt that while our experiences were a result of an intersection of transphobia and misogyny, it is a different thing than transmisogyny.

While the discourse seems to have moved on, I’m self-aware enough to admit to still feeling conflicted about that, but regardless of that feeling, I can respect that this term was coined by transfemmes for transfemmes to describe their unique experiences. Okay, I can understand that. I truly want to be respectful of the transfemmes in this space. You are my sisters, even when we disagree, and I know many of you are coming at this from a place of genuine frustration. But I still can’t help but feel my own frustration at how this has played out, with transfeminine people laying exclusive claim to what they appear to see as the only coherent term for the intersection of misogyny and transphobia, and then calling transmasculine people incoherent when we attempt to create other terms for the other ways in which that intersection can manifest in other types of trans people.

Look, I see the discourse around transandrophobia, transmisandry and antitransmasculinity as terms. I hear it, I want to make space for that, and I understand where a lot of the heat is coming from. The major complaint I see is that misandry and androphobia aren’t real things, therefore transandrophobia is nonsensical, an attempt at creating an intersection between oppressions that do not exist, and that what we are really experiencing is “just transphobia.” Occasionally I will see some admission that there is also misogyny involved, though the role of that is often downplayed.

But I have to admit that I really struggle to understand that in terms of the intersectional framework as I understand it, because the way I learned about intersectional theory, there isn’t any such thing as “just” in term of oppressive systems. Society is not selective in the perceived aspects of you it chooses to oppress you based upon. Society sees trans men as trans (bad) and also women (bad), which results in the intersection of sexism and transphobia.

And there are definitely aspects of transphobia towards trans men that reek of misogyny to me! Being told that young trans men need to be “protected” from their own choices because its whats “best for them.” The amount of emphasis placed on “destroying your womb” in transition related discussions. The surprising amount of discussions I’ve had to have where someone asked if that meant I was going to stop shaving, only to act legitimately disgusted when I told them I hadn’t shaved any of my body parts since middle school. The doctor who tried to convince me I was legally barred from even getting a referral for top surgery until I’d had a child, despite me living in one of the most trans-friendly places on the planet where I think 1 in 10 people is some sort of queer, and where we have explicit laws on the books protecting my access to gender affirming care. Not even a hysterectomy, something that might actually affect my ability to bear kids. Top surgery. Like, no, having doctors try to deny you healthcare is not a uniquely transmasc thing, but having them explicitly say they’re basing that decision on the occupancy status of your womb certainly does feel like misogyny to me. It is a reduction of me to my reproductive capacity and saying my feelings don’t matter in the face of what my body can do for society. I can’t imagine a clearer manifestation of sexism, because that is not the sort of thing that happens to cis men.

And then there are the violence statistics showing trans men have on par rates of assault and rape with trans women, as well as all the anecdotal evidence of forced impregnation as a coercion tactic to keep trans men in line. The threats of “corrective rape” that are so integral to lesbophobia, that sense people have of lesbians men of being women out of line who need to be “put back in their place”, trans men experience those too. The fetishization, and particularly the prevalence of forcefem in transmasc chasers. Can’t possibly get more overt than “I like to sleep with trans guys so I can live out the fantasy of fucking them so good they become women again.”

So many of the posts I see upset about transandrophobia or transmisandry say that the people making these posts have made transmisogynist posts in the past, that the claims are transmisogynistic in themselves, and that these trans men are just looking for something to make them feel special. But…the whole point of intersectionality is that the intersections of our identity do create new and unique angles of oppression that weigh on us all differently, and we can use more specific terminology to communicate and foster solidarity across unique experiences. Like…the experiences of trans men are different from trans women, not because trans men don’t experience misogyny, or trans women don’t experience misogyny. We both experience misogyny. The difference is in the angle and which it intersects with our transness.

I don’t want to invalidate trans women’s experiences here. I am trying as hard as I can to be respectful, and mindful, and acknowledge the places in which the trans women speaking have real points to make about the origins of the words we use. But we have to use something. You may feel its a childish argument, but it truly isn’t fair for one side to lay claim to the idea of an intersection of transness and misogyny, and its not because trans men are such special guys who saw trans women had a toy and they wanted one too. Its because it limits the effectiveness of discussions about transmasculine oppression. Asking trans women not to use the term transmisogyny would limit the ways in which they can talk about their own oppression. Trans men also deserve to talk about their own oppression.

And its not good for trans women either! Saying that the things transmasculine people experience are “just transphobia”…kind of implies that the transmasc experiences is like…the default trans experience??? If an experience exclusive to transmasc people is “just transphobia,” doesn’t that imply that trans women’s experiences are somehow…tangential to transphobia? Like, from my perspective seems to just increase the burden on trans women to justify their experiences, in the same way viewing intersections of whiteness and misogyny as “just misogyny” puts the burden on women of color to justify their own experiences of misogyny as still being misogyny, even though it doesn’t line up with what white women experience.

Look, I don’t know where I’m going with this, but I guess the main thing is: yeah, you’re right, misandry isn’t a societal force like misogyny is, and cannot create intersections. The actual intersection happening here is an intersection between transphobia and misogyny. Unfortunately, what seems to be the only logical name for that intersection has been claimed in such a way that we are not really welcome to use it, so if we want to discuss our experiences with the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, we have to either a. Encroach on trans women’s language, or b. Invent a new term. I don’t know which is preferable here, but i know things cannot continue as they are.

This essay probably won’t reach anyone except my immediate circle, and even within that I’m likely to get some amount of my mutuals upset with me. If it does leave my immediate circle I know I’ll probably get a lot of shit thrown my way, and I’ve accepted that, but I decided I really just had to get this out, and I didn’t want to do it on someone else’s post. Just…I really hope I’ve been respectful enough in this post to warrant anyone responding to it to be respectful in turn.

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transmascissues · 2 years

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correct me if I'm wrong (trying to find a cohesive thread through this issue) but it sounds like a gripe that people have with the terms transmisandry and transandrophobia is in part because they view it as theft of the concept of transmisogyny? i've seen that but i have also seen criticism of literally every other phrase trans men are trying to coin to describe their experience so it overall feels like a losing situation

yeah, that's one of many complaints people have about it

and i know you didn't really ask for my opinion on the criticism but in case anyone's wondering: you just...can't "steal" the concept of oppression. the concept of transmisogyny was coined first but saying that we somehow "stole" the concept by just...also talking about and creating words for our own unique oppression would be like saying the concept of transphobia is a theft of the concept of homophobia. i could keep elaborating, but the whole terminology discourse is honestly just too exhausting so i'd like to minimize the chances of someone trying to debate with me on this

generally speaking though, yeah you're absolutely right, there is no winning when it comes to the terminology fights - that's why they're so frustrating. people will never be happy with what we come up with because their actual problem is that we're coming up with anything at all. a lot of people just don't want to see us talking about our issues, and their reasons for not wanting us to be able to will vary depending on who they are and what circles they're in, but in general, having specific vocabulary makes our discussions easier and that means they're never going to like it, no matter how carefully constructed it is or how well we explain it or anything like that

and honestly, a lot of it isn't coming from a malicious place, it's just that the idea of us having a unique form of oppression challenges what a lot of people have been taught and some of them aren't ready for that so they fight it. a lot of trans women and transfems have been told by our current sort of ~activism culture~ that if you're not The Most Oppressed then your oppression doesn't matter at all, so the idea of other people in the trans community developing similar concepts of unique oppression genuinely feels threatening because they worry that people won't care about their oppression anymore if they're not seen as Definitively The Most Oppressed and like...yeah that's fucking scary, i won't pretend it's not! and a lot of trans men and transmascs (myself included) have been told by that same Most Oppressed philosophy of activism that, because trans women and transfems have been sort of placed as The Most Oppressed in our community, the focus should be on them as much as possible, so we end up feeling like we have to pick between talking about our own issues and getting pushed away by the larger community or just not causing a scene so we can retain our place in the community and again, the idea of being isolated like that is fucking scary too so i get why some people find themselves fighting against discussions of their own oppression for the sake of holding onto that community - i've had to fight the urge to do so myself. as angry as the pushback against our discussions makes me, i do have at least a little compassion for most of the individual people doing it because i know, for the most part, the motivation isn't malice, it's just fear. the genuinely shitty-through-and-through people are there for sure, but not in huge numbers

and honestly? knowing that makes it even harder to fight against the arguments sometimes because i can see what's behind most of them and it makes it a lot harder to be pissed, which is part of why i try not to get into it. obviously i think people should be held accountable for their actions regardless of how sympathetic the motivations are, but personally i feel like i'm better at just starting to have the discussions we want to have than i am at getting into the arguments about if we should be having them - i'll leave that to other people on here

that was a lot longer (and more rambly) than i was planning on and probably a lot more than you were expecting too, but i figured i'd kinda just put all my thoughts on the matter here (including the less "fuck you, this sucks" side of my thoughts, which don't always come across very much on here) since i don't usually talk about it at all. i'm a bit nervous to post it because i know i'm on that blocklist, but oh well, might as well

at the end of the day, most people's problem is that we're acknowledging our oppression in the first place, not the specific words we use (those are just easier targets), so i've personally chosen to just...not worry about the terminology and actually get to the discussions themselves. i have plenty of compassion when i think it's warranted, but i also have very little patience for the fights, yknow?

#ask answered #transandrophobia #transandromisia #transmisandry #virilmisia #virilphobia #trans men #transmascs

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thebrightgreenscream · 3 years

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Listen if your argument against transmasc-specific terms comes down to general misandry not being a thing then congrats you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're talking about!

transandrophobia/transmisandry doesn't rely on a systemic oppression of men. Like transmisogyny, it's also a way of describing the intersection of transphobia & misogyny, but from the experience of being afab. We are forcibly assigned into womanhood. This is treated as a permanent fixture of our lives (unlike the perceived conditional nature of transfem womanhood) and we're still targeted based on our bodies & ability to blend in with the cisgender majority. We're discriminated for being "faulty" women, for failing at being our assigned gender, for daring to transition towards masculinity. Bioessentialist rhetoric leads others to treat us both as vulnerable & impressionable women and as violent & aggressive men when we medically or socially transition, whichever is more convenient for the argument being had. We're barred from necessary healthcare (especially reproductive care) based on incorrect assumptions of our bodies and needs. We're assumed to gain privilege for being men (which doesn't really happen for many of us but that's a different discussion), and often accused to weaponizing this advantage against women & other trans folks for talking about our own struggles.

Like. I've literally seen transmascs discussing their *own* experiences with misogyny being labeled as transphobic. Every term we create to discuss this intersection is denied out of hand by those who declare themselves our allies. We're minimized in our own communities.

#transandrophobia #im tired of seeing icecold takes on the subject so i wrote too many words about it #later i will write a more readable version of this but #theres also a lot of things i didnt touch on here that i think we need to talk about #like the whole transmasc terf community #and we can pretend there's something inherently transmisogynistic in afab trans people #or we can usefully discuss how transmascs wanting to talk about our specific oppression (often in healthcare settings) is blocked #amd how that feeds into radfem recruitment #but thats also a discussion for a later date #greenerscreams #also #tw transphobia #also to be clear if youre gonna yell at me for talking about transmascs specifically go eat a snack or something and leave me alone #thnx

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