#anyway this is just meant to be smth to chew on yk. yeah 👍

[skrunksthatwunk]

if you're reading this ask yourself whether you would accept a genderfluid or multigender person's lesbian identity. now consider whether or not you would accept a trans man's lesbian identity. now consider whether you would accept a cis man's lesbian identity.

because i think there are many people who would accept the first, but not the second two, and others who would accept the first two, but not the last one. but from where i'm standing, these are all inseparable questions.

the acceptance for multigender, genderfluid, and other similar gender-ID lesbians as valid forms of lesbians is often subtextually qualified by the fact that they are not only men. so men are allowed within lesbian spaces, but only if they are a) only men sometimes or b) not exclusively men. but i think this goes back to the idea that lesbians are "non-men who love non-men," an idea that assumes a mutual exclusivity between men and other genders, as well as men and lesbians/lesbianism. this is a concept of sapphicism that excludes many people, myself included.

i have seen people present the idea of trans men and lesbians having a historic connection and community/experiential overlap, and thus the idea of a trans man who is also a lesbian often sits within that historical (i.e. bygone) context, as well as that shared experience. i think two things happen here. first, there is a belief that this is an old phenomenon, one that no longer occurs due to the greater number of more highly proliferated labels. the thought is that this overlap would not have occured if they'd had the proper language available—that people would slot into their boxes neatly, essentially. this is not true, as evidenced by the modern existence of trans men who are/were/once ID'd as lesbians, and lesbians who are/were/once ID'd as trans men. the second is the idea that that confusion or overlap essentially gives them a pass to call themselves lesbians, due to attachment to the title; or the suggestion that a shared experience gives them the right, even as men, to identify as lesbians anyway, a right that is not extended to cis men. but i ask what that shared experience might be, and whether that should be the qualification? is it a queer afab upbringing? that could mean a lot of things. aroace women would also have such an upbringing, and many of them would not view themselves as lesbians. there are plenty of lesbians who are not afab as well, and do not have whatever externally-perceived girlhood is imagined within that. plenty of trans men (and other afab trans people) do not view themselves as having ever been little girls, and plenty of trans women (and other non-afab trans people) view themselves as having been, at some point, boys. there are many others still whose "shared experience" will not be so neatly defined. intersex people of all genders often have very different experiences with perceived and experienced sex and gender, particularly if their puberty is blatantly not typical girl-puberty or boy-puberty. even things like racial or class dynamics could skew that experience, of who is allowed to be a girl (i.e. black women in america being barred from the social roles of "woman" because the concept is associated with/necessitates whiteness), or similar questions. my point is that, while perhaps a stronger link, shared experience is an undefinable and non-comprehensive concept here, as with, frankly, most/all gender/sexuality concepts. any box will lead to exclusion; every rule has exceptions.

this leads me to the third concept. though it may be hard for some to imagine a cis man who is also (genuinely, unironically) a lesbian, i think it is safe to assume that at least one exists, and likely many more. (in discussions of gender/sexuality theory, i think it is best practice to assume that is the case.) my challenge to you, especially if you said yes to the prior two and no to this one, is to consider what makes a cis man different from these prior examples. if you believe that some men may be allowed into lesbianism, why not cis men? what makes them different? why should men need additional genders to be lesbians? why should they need to have the community-approved gender path/understanding to be lesbians? who dictates the life or experience that allows one to be a lesbian, and is it anyone's right to decide that?

i just think it's good to ask yourself these things. i am very happy to see an increase in acceptance of the first two categories of lesbians on here, but i think (and i say this with love) that a lot of these people don't really consider why they are accepted, and whether those rules apply to other groups. they begin to accept others, but don't question the broader framework. it's just a suggestion. as a genderfluid + multigender lesbian myself, i have to confront the "no boys allowed/men dni" stuff a lot, and i think the ways i'm affected by it and my experience trying to encourage the letting go of such sentiments has given me some perspective on the issue. and although im not cis anything, much less a cis man, i guess i wanted to like,, prompt some reflection in people? because i think there's a lot of well-meaning and genuinely very progressive people who may think "you're a lesbian if you say you are" but don't apply that to situations where they're confronted with a type of lesbian they don't understand/that doesn't fit their definitions. like if self-id is what matters then anyone could be a lesbian. my point is that that's true, and that's okay. you don't need to keep anyone out. lesbianism is in your heart, basically.

#im putting obscure gender theory dyke discourse on the dash again sorry #this post extends to mspec lesbians and the like as well. men and lesbianism are not mutually exclusive okay thats my point #anyway ive talked about this a few times before but whatever it needs to be said again. fuck it #someone's gotta talk about lesbian men and i guess it's gotta be me #look obviously the consensus is not that trans men can be lesbians or even that genderfluid lesbians are valid or whatever #trust me if you believe either of those things you're ahead of the curve on dyke theory and acceptance and i appreciate it #but maybe this'll make someone feel seen or change their minds or realize something idk. im just thinking out loud here #i know it's not the biggest problem in the world or that it's a very 'online issue' but i think it actually is relevant to someone somewhere #maybe not a cis man who's a lesbian but someone related or someone who does exclude certain lesbians #people have been talking about weird dyke genders since before the internet too like it's not just terminally online discourse or whatever #anyway this is just meant to be smth to chew on yk. yeah 👍