#he got distracted by a piece of shit floating down an otherwise pristine river

[sysmedsaresexist]

What you're doing is incredibly brave. We really appreciate the risk you're taking sharing your journey. It's awesome to see someone so vocal and with such reach openly change their stance.

We wanna know some of your thoughts about something you've been saying in all of this, about CDDs being separate from endogenic plurality. Specifically, your thoughts on when the two do meet. Like, endogenic systems that get traumatized and develop CDD symptoms? Or CDD systems that practice headmate creation, and find created headmates working like the rest of their system? Or folks in either category that relate a lot with those in the other?

We're curious because we exist in that in-between; a system with DID due to trauma, but that doesn't view our plurality itself as coming from trauma.

And if you're not at all interested in that area of overlap, or in sharing those thoughts, no worries! Have a great day!

This is a pretty nuanced ask and each mod has a different view on things, so we'll all answer!

Mod Signal: I believe that endogenic plurality and the plurality found in CDD systems works differently, but that intersection you're talking about can exist. The majority of resources for CDD systems involve how to deal with trauma and different alters reactions to it. If an endogenic system goes through some shit and gets trauma later in life, and can get use out of grounding guides, or how to deal with flooding, I say use those guides (and literally anyone can improve their mental health from therapy as long as the therapist. You know. Isn't a cunt.) That being said. There are also endos who are very certain they're endos when they may have.... a bit more trauma than they thought. And that's normal. Incredibly so. But endogenic communities can lead to a bit more harm than good occasionally with those systems if they insist that the system in question isn't or couldn't be a cdd system, or encourages them not to look into resources on how to deal with trauma.

As far as purposefully created alters, they absolutely exist, and I know CDD systems that have created alters with it going ok, and CDD systems who have been *horribly* hurt trying. I've seen some tulpamancy guides out there that made me wince the whole time I've read them. Not because they're cringy, but because any time a CDD system fucks around with purposeful dissociation, it's Incredibly easy to fuck yourself up by accident. Even some guides to meditation can be harmful to systems if you don't go slowly and pay attention to your body (something that's already very, very easy to ignore if your system, like mine, is made of 90% pain holders lol).

It's for that reason that i haven't changed my pinned intro as "endo-neutral". I dont doubt endogenic plurality at all, but I still find a lot of critiques in the way the two communities mix. The labels are fucked anyway lol so. I dont know what label would best fit that stance. The problem does seem to be slowly fixing itself though. I'm happy that a lot of endos are leaning away from terms used by CDD systems. I view these problems for the most part as growing pains that will smooth themselves over as plurality in general becomes more accepted and more research about both sets of systems comes out.

Mod Quill: I’m feel like that’s a great jumping off point for me, someone who is so weird with syscourse that labels don’t fit me. I believe in endogenic plurality, I really do, but I also know this community has done so much harm to CDDs and vice versa. Part of me wants everyone to go to time out corners and think about what they’ve done.

In terms of the overlap between endogenic and CDD systems… I think defining it, at this point, is frankly meaningless, particularly for the reasons Signal stated. There’s so many endogenic systems who are actually CDD systems. On one hand, I want them to be able to access CDD spaces because, well, they have a CDD… but on the other, as someone who’s been horrifically damaged by endogenic spaces, who has spread a lot of misinformation and been fed a lot of misinformation due to those experiences… I’m wary of letting someone like that into a highly fucking traumatized space. (But I also have feelings about CDD spaces in general…)

At the end of the day, I feel like it’s not my place to draw that line. It’s up to each individual and their own system where they draw the line, and so long as it’s in-line with current understandings of CDDs and they don’t speak their personal experiences as if they’re gospel truth for all systems, I have no issues. If someone says they have endogenic DID (as in, they formed DID with absolutely no trauma), it’s not my place to directly confront that person and tell them that’s not possible; but if they shout from the heavens about how people are ignoring the truth, I’m going to post the truth as I know it, with sources to back it up.

The same goes for this overlap. A system who says “Hey, I have created alters, and I’m a DID system, and those things overlap?” Cool! Awesome! That’s actually my type of system. A system who goes, “Therefore, DID systems should split new alters for the benefits it has”? Allow me to traumadump about how my system completely destabilized due to that practice. The overlap is there, but it’s not for me to define for others; not unless they make their experiences universal.

Mod Robo: Oh boy, I have a lot of Thoughts on all of these questions! It's stuff I think about often. I love talking about all the in-betweens and overlaps, and I'd love to hear about your experiences too. Unfortunately, I don't think I can jam all of my thoughts in this post (it's already long enough) so I'll just talk about your first question.

First off, I want to say that I don't think it's all that unusual for someone with a CDD to feel like they've always been plural, even before their CDD. Of course, spiritual beliefs can play a role in that. Let's put spiritual reasonings aside though and look at it from a purely psychological view. It's our belief that all of our alters -- everything that can be them, will become them, etc. -- it's all there from the start. We don't believe that alters come out of a vacuum. All of my alters were born the day our body was born. Many of us did not exist as alters yet, but the foundation for us existed!

To give a personal example: some of us have memories of childhood that predate our existence as alters. These memories predate our knowledge of being a system or having DID. We've wondered how it's possible to have memories that predate our existence as alters. How is it possible for several alters to have these same memories, and feel as if it's their own but also not? How is it possible that we can't really attribute "who" those memories belong to other than just...us? All of us? It didn't fit into the mainstream idea that alters are supposed to be these distinct, clear-cut people sharing a body, with separate memories and no overlap, no utterance of our existence before becoming a separate alter.

Children aren't born with an integrated self. You probably know the whole spiel -- the mind integrates as you get older, blah blah blah. So, in our opinion, we were never not plural. We had an unintegrated mind full of parts as a child, and we grew up into an adult with an unintegrated mind full of parts and eventually a DID diagnosis.

I get that some people don't see themselves as existing before their CDD and that's okay, I understand that. I also relate to that, in a way! It can be weird to consider because you as the alter didn't exist until later on. But you as the brain did, if that makes sense.

All that being said, I believe that "endogenic CDDs" are a completely separate concept from "endogenic systems with CDDs." CDDs are diagnoses -- they have specified symptoms, diagnostic criteria, and treatment. Diagnoses are not people. You are. That's why plurality is such an incredibly personal thing, after all. We're literally talking about your own mind. Your self/selves. Your internal reality. No duh there are gonna be people who conceptualize and talk about it in different ways. Like, I firmly believe that's NEVER going to be clear cut and easy to understand.

OG Dude: First, I have to say, thank you to my mods. Their responses are fantastic, I support all of them. I brought them all in pretty early, and I wouldn't be where I am without them. Their pro/endo patience while I went back and forth, screamed and yelled... I love them. I love that they saw the good in me and decided to help me run this blog.

I agree with all that they said. For clarity sake, I'll give my own thoughts, even if they overlap or repeat.

I've posted from the beginning about how a lot of things that endogenic systems talked about were actually really normal in DID systems. Created alters, characters that take on life, MADD, loving your system, dysfunction in different areas of life, on and on. I think there's more intersection than a lot of people realize, but I really like how Robo talked about personal views. It took a really long time to realize that people defining their experiences in different ways isn't necessarily a bad thing, though it's unfortunate that sometimes this confuses systems that are still learning.

Yelling and screaming isn't going to help, though. There's another ask coming, this one about my thoughts on sophie, that I think will tie into this point and expand on it a lot more, so for now, I'll move on.

I don't have all the answers. I think CDDs are something extremely specific-- I think in a few more years, diagnosis will involve brain scans, biomarkers, and we'll be able to say with a lot more certainty where that line is, and what's different.

For now, I think I've learned that the best thing I can do for myself, and everyone else, endo or CDD, is just keep pumping out information.

A couple users on here are really good examples of these lines. They have CPTSD, PTSD, whatever else they've got going on, but they still hold the belief that their plurality and CPTSD are unrelated. It took a long time to come to terms with balancing respect for that self-determination, and my expectations of technology and the specificity of CDDs (meaning like, specific biomarkers).

In the end, I realized that it boiled down to, "are people getting the help they need?" Because in the end, that's all that matters, and if someone doesn't think they need help, why am I arguing? If someone does, who am I to keep them from resources?

What if that technology doesn't reach the mainstream, what if it's decades before it's refined enough to be financially feasible in diagnosis? What if people come out with the exact same brain structure as someone with DID and still refuse to admit that the plurality is related?

Well, shit, I don't know, but I'm guessing the answer is still going to be, "Don't yell at them, respect their self-determination."

I still firmly believe that plurality and CDDs are different things. I think that treatment for CPTSD and PTSD are different, and many endos without longterm, repetitive trauma in childhood have PTSD, and would benefit more from those spaces and resources than CDD/CPTSD spaces. However, I also admit that a general PTSD space isn't going to be prepared for the complex interplay of plurality and PTSD. All that said, it's not my job to tell someone which they have, my job should be to present information on both to everyone and let people come to their own conclusions.

It's hard, but it's a skill I'm still trying to learn. Seeing more people talk about their experiences is probably the only thing that's going to help make it easier.

#syscourse #syscourse stance #mod signal #mod quill #mod robo #mod dude #team effort #also mod dude would like to apologize if his part seemed to cut off suddenly #he got distracted by a piece of shit floating down an otherwise pristine river