#nieyanon

[lansplaining]

One other thing: Guangyao & Mingjue meaning bright jade do parallel the twin jades (Chifeng-Sun & Lianfang-zun sound similar to Hanguang-Jun & Zewu-Jun) & their relationship does parallel NMJ’s & NHS, which highlights the kinship ties afforded by their sworn brotherhood. But nieyao also parallels Meng Shi & JGS. JGY resembles Meng Shi, & her face is mistaken for his. NMJ comes looking for JGY when JGS never came back for Meng Shi, but ends up kicking him down the stairs in the same way he did.

...I didn't share this one initially because I admit I don't have a lot to say. I think you're just wrong.

The point about the Twin Jades wasn't me, first of all, it was this post (not tagging just in case you don't want to be dragged into the discussion haha). I don't hear the aural similarities between the four titles, but I don't speak Chinese so there's probably something I'm missing.

I am so sorry for this but you have unlocked the English teacher-- you've started to make a point, but what actually happens when you try to push it a step farther? Okay, Jin Guangyao looks like his mother, that's something that gets a lot of attention in the story, so it probably does carry some importance. There are two parallel stair kicks, that's definitely interesting, there is probably some shared meaning there as well, a line we're supposed to draw between these two events and the participants in them.

But NMJ looking for JGY is the inverse of Jin Guangshan not looking for Meng Shi? Because they look alike? Even if we accept that for some reason that's a parallel MXTX is trying to draw... why? What does it mean? They are definitely two pole figures in JGY's life, two powerful men who abuse and torment him in different ways, but we don't need nieyao to be paralleled to JGS and Meng Shi to know that. Jin Guangshan is a careless, selfish person who had an affair with a sex worker and then immediately lost interest in her. How does Nie Mingjue occupy a parallel position in JGY's life? Is the implication that NMJ used and abused JGY, but because he... looked for him... and, idk, wouldn't forget about him whereas JGS said "just forget it" about him, that's... the opposite but in a way that's equally damaging for JGY and makes him equally miserable...? I'm honestly struggling to construct even an imaginary argument here. Parallels don't just exist for the sake of existing, and it isn't enough to just point out a similarity between two things in a book. They have meaning when that similarity carries a deeper thematic purpose.

Let's look at the two stair kicks. They are both attempts to remind JGY of his place. JGY has attempted to rise-- first by trying to claim his birthright, then by doing all the things Nie Mingjue is so angry at him for-- and the people to whom he is appealing kick him down the stairs as a form of humiliation and an attempt to hurt or even kill him. Symbolically, it is stairs because his attempts to rise in the world are being rejected. He wants to be at the top, he is forced back down to the bottom by people who believe that he has no right to rise. This means a couple things: it shows that the people society tells JGY he should be able to rely upon, his father and his sworn brother, will never help him. It also indeed draws a parallel between JGS and NMJ by suggesting that their feelings about JGY are, at the bottom, the same: dismissive disgust. The two events are the exact same rejection twice.

We don't need to add a parallel to Meng Shi in for this to be true-- in fact, that just muddies the water. The parallel is about JGY's repeated betrayals by the men who their society says should help and support him, and who others have told him will care for him. It's an image of repeatedly crashing against the same glass ceiling: a self-protecting elite that will always kick outsiders back to where they 'belong.' This connects in turn to one of the novel's larger themes, which explores how an outsider's place in elite society is always contingent and never safe. The most obvious example of this is Wei Wuxian, who is embraced when his talents are useful and are deployed within socially acceptable boundaries as Jiang Cheng's future subordinate, but is immediately turned on when he begins to transgress society's expectations.

Parallels and comparisons don't just sit there. You need to dig into how they actually interact as story elements with the broader story, and also how they branch out to connect to the story's themes and key ideas.

#ask answered #nieyanon #i am SO sorry

[lansplaining]

There are 3 parallel kicks—not just 2. One’s tied into a memory of his mom, the other his dad, and the third of NMJ, who kicks him from the same tower his father did and draws attention to his mom’s background. It’s not just about looks: JGY’s oppression is tied to his mom’s oppression, he’s filial 2 her & kills ppl 4 insulting her. NMJ starts out opposed to JGS but becomes more like him toward the end of his life, esp w/ the Wen remnants. I guess I can’t convince y’all but oh well 🤷🏾‍♀️

I mean... no, you can't when your evidence is this sloppy. If it helps, you've convinced me there's a superficial connection, potentially? But you haven't demonstrated why it matters, and again, if there's no deeper literary meaning, then it's probably not actually intended to be a parallel.

I actually almost brought in the third kick as well, but it had no connection to your Meng Shi idea, so I didn't. The idea that the three kicks are about JGY's two parents and then NMJ is really interesting! In fact, it feeds into what I was saying about how the kicks are in part about the people society says should protect JGY failing to do so. In that case, it's compounded by the fact that he's actually trying to protect his mother. Unlike the two men, her failure isn't a lack of care, but because she's put in circumstances where she, too, is vulnerable, and needs to be protected by her own son.

But like... you realize that beyond that, what you're describing is just... JGY's relationship to his mother? That's not a symbol or a parallel or a sign that they're mirrors of each other, that's just... the nature of their relationship in canon, as defined both by JGY's personality and their culture's idea about inheritance and filial piety.

It's also very weird to say that Mingjue becomes more like JGS in relation to the Wen remnants when that happens before he stands in public opposition to JGS, the action that leads to JGS wanting him dead and JGY killing him.

#ask answered #nieyanon

[lansplaining]

To me, NMJ’s statements like no matter how hard people backbite you you should strive for excellence read like something his ancestors must have said over generations before they finally shook off the stigma of being butchers. That doesn’t & can’t work for JGY but I’m not sure I believe NMJ’s background is solely about unqualified privilege, bc at the end, nieyao both come full circle & get sealed under “heavy barriers & endless scorn”. & I still think nieyao parallel Meng Shi & JGS.

Sure, but that stigma has now been shaken off in all the ways that matter. It does not influence how people treat NMJ day-to-day or on a larger scale. It's like people whose Depression-era grandparents turn off the lights every time they leave the room. Absolutely that had a material impact, and people still alive (though not in NMJ's case because, you know, everybody qi deviated) still feel it... but the grandchildren of those people do not.

I just think you've constructed a really circular argument here. The fact that they have the same ending means they have the same background/beginning, and the fact that they have the same background/beginning is proven by the fact that they have the same ending.

I'll share your other ask about the Meng Shi & JGS thing, because I need to dig into the details of what you said to respond...

#ask answered #in case anyone is getting tired of this sorry haha #nieyanon #can be the tag