#who committed ALL the worst sins (incest kinslaying and oathbreaking)

[tweedstoat]

One area where i think GRRM knocked it out of the park was showing both the glory and the pitfalls that come with organised religion and i really dislike it when people are like oh all the smartest people in Westeros are either atheists because the seven clearly dont exist or they follow the old gods or R’hllor because they can actually do stuff.

Like miracles and wonders and striking down your enemies is great but i dont think its the only point of religion either ASOIAF’s world or ours.

Aeron is my favourite example of this! He is clinging to the drowned god like a sailor clings to a shipwreck! Hes probably wrong about all of it! But seeing him after being imprisoned, tied to the prow of a ship and about to die as a sacrifice but still reaching out and saying “Falia Flowers. Have courage, girl! All this will be over soon, and we will feast together in the Drowned God’s watery halls.” 

And im like oh yes, thats it, thats the point of religion.

#not to be catholic but oh god #i think religion is about seeing the horrors of the world around you and trying to get through it with other people #anyways me and the 5 other aeron stans rise up #Also its about trying to make sense of why bad stuff happens to you #and to other good ppl #there are no answers to this that make sense but also lots of the answers make semi sense #also sorry but if i was a northerner and i found out my gods were blood raven sitting in a tree #who committed ALL the worst sins (incest kinslaying and oathbreaking) #i would be pissed

[butterflies-dragons]

Themes like incest, kinslaying, oathbreaking are considered as sins and amoral in asioaf. But I think grrm is exploring many layers in it. If Gilly would have killed Craster to escape from rape would it be called sin? Jaime killed his king Aerys to stop his madness from killing everyone , was that immoral? Jon broke his oath to save his sister, was it wrong? I think grrm is asking to not see those things black and white.

Baby in our wildest moments We could be the greatest, we could be the greatest Maybe in our wildest moments We could be the worst of all [x]

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Not all incest tho. Remember that Westeros was OK with cousins marriages (Tywin/Joanna, Rickard/Lyarra) and with aunt/uncle and nephew/niece marriages as well (Jonnel/Sansa). And the Targaryen brought their Valyrian tradition to marry brother and sister to Westeros via dragon threat and doctrines of exceptionalism as justification (meaning only them can do it, because dragons).

What is considered a sin in Westeros is the brother and sister, and parent with children incest, like Jaime/Cersei, and Craster and his daughters/wives.

But with kingslaying and oathbreaking, it seems that these general rules/commandments accept no exception, like self defense, life preservation, victim's fault, the greatest good, etc. Those rules are so sacred that they carry a punishment no matter what.

So you are right about GRRM asking his readers to not see those things black and white, with examples of Gilly, Jaime and Jon.

All those "problematic," "controversial," "radical," "immoral," "grey" decisions and actions are the result of what Martin's considers the only thing that is worth to write about: the human heart in conflict with itself.

He is also trying to tell us that we are capable of greatness but also capable to commit the most horrible crimes and abominations. That's how he writes his characters:

[...] They come in all varieties and even the individuals have good and evil within them. I’ve always tried to do that because I think that’s realistic, and I think we’re all grey. We all have good and bad in us, we’ve all done good things and we’ve all done bad things. And we can do, I mean, real history is full of stories about people who did something wonderful on Tuesday and something horrible on Thursday, same person.

There is a wonderful writer who passed away a few years ago, not a science fiction writer but, Pat Conroy. Have any of you ever read Pat Conroy? Terrific writer, one of the great writers I think of the 20th century. And he wrote… A lot of his books were made into movies, “The Great Santini”, “The Water is Wide”, which as made into the movie “Conrack,” based on his own experiences teaching, “The Lords of Discipline”. But probably the best known books of his is  “The Prince of Tides”, and I remember that book, that book has a character in it who is an absolutely abusive father, he terrorizes his children he abuses them both verbally and physically. He’s horrible to his wife, he’s really a despicable, horrible person. But there are flashbacks within that to World War II, about an American aviator flying a mission over Nazi Germany who was shot down, and that, he parachutes out to safety but now he’s in the middle of Nazi Germany and he has to get back to the lines. He makes his way though the German lines, you know, hiding in haystacks, and occasionally meeting Germans who try to turn him in, and the other Germans who are kind to him and hide him. And that, you know, it’s an interesting secondary storyline. It’s the same character, and you realize as you read this, you’re reading the story about this brave American aviator trying to make his way through the Nazi’s and to get back to the lines, and you’re really rooting for him, and you’re identifying with him, and you think he’s great, and then you get to the present day and he’s this horrible wretched person, based on Conrad’s own father, who was mistreating his family. And I loved that, I mean, the depth of character there. It was amazing, and the fact that Conrad did it so greatly. So that’s… that’s some of my views on characters.

[Source]

Thanks for your message.

#anon asks #grrm #asoiaf